The DT position is a huge ?.

[Tatonka]

i can honestly say that i am more worried about the DT spot than any other position, including QB, OL, TE, LB, and WR.

we dont have a single proven full time starter.

Tripplett was our "big" DL signing, but they guy has never been anything more than a back up in a rotation who got a third of the playing time. He also has never put up numbers that will make anyone think he is better than what we have had here (which isnt much lately). Ron Edwards looked just as productive as a 3rd string DT too. Tripplett better prove to be worth something, because he is the only guy at DT that has any experience at all, be it as a back up, and occasional starter.

McCargo was a highly debated first round pick this year, and while i liked the pick when it was made, the OTAs have shown, at least at this point, that McCargo was selected as a first round back up to Tripplett. I hope that changes, and honestly feel that it was crazy to select a guy in the first round that you project as a back up, but I think it will. I think McCargo will get on the field.. mainly because we have no other starting quality DTs on the roster, and so he should almost get the job by default.

Anderson has shown little to nothing that has ever impressed me since joining the bills 2 years ago as a 3rd round pick. He has not shown the ability to dominate at the nfl level, and has no specialty.. he is average to below average at stopping the run and rushing the passer. not exactly the type of guy i want to hang my starting role on again.

Williams, while he has a nice website, and was a productive college player surrounded by a lot of talent on that LSU defense, is still a 5th round pick that is under 300 lbs and has to learn how to play in the nfl. Being that he doesnt have the physical gifts that McCargo has, i would expect his learning curve to be much more like andersons than anything. i really hope he does well, but i am not expecting a whole hell of a lot.

Sape - come on.. him and all the rest are camp fodder.

we have not one DT on the roster that is considered a run stuffer.. a big man that can clog the middle on the goal line or short yardage situations.. i dont want to hear all the crap about a big man not "fitting the scheme" of the tampa defense. a guy that is 295 lbs is easier to move than a guy who is 350 lbs. when it is 4th and 1, you dont need a guy who is a great pass rusher. you need a guy that doesnt get blown off the line while trying to hold the point of attack.

i hope i am way off here.. but i do not have any confidence at all in what we have right now. None.

[OpIv37]

McCargo was a highly debated first round pick this year, and while i liked the pick when it was made, the OTAs have shown, at least at this point, that McCargo was selected as a first round back up to Tripplett.




If that's true, I will be livid- it basically means we used a first round draft pick (and lost a 3rd round in the process) on a back-up to a back-up. That's inexcusable. Right now, Tripplett and McCargo are the two best DT's on the team, which is scary- especially if they can't play at the same time.

[Tatonka]

from what i know and have seen/read of mccargo, he can play 1 or 3 spot, so if he is the best player, then he should start. but again.. relying on 1 back up, 2 rookies, and 1 3rd year player that has shown alot less than a guy like ron edwards.. it just doesnt sit well with me.

[Night Train]

I understand the concern but lets see what happens in camp first.

The fat slob DT such as Adams, Grady Jackson and Wilkinson are only good in short spurts, even in a rotation. I was alarmed at how Adams' play nosedived last season, compared to 2004 when he was dominant.

Anderson played well the last month of the season, from the Pats home game on. He ran over Steven Neal all game....the same Neal who people wanted as a OG for this team, before the Pats signed him again.

[eyedog]

You think that 350 lb Ngata would have looked a little nicer next to Triplett ? Yes, i did too.
This new defense and bs about McCargo being a better fit had better work, and if they can't get both Mccargo and Triplett on the field together than it is a bad pick then imo, because Anderson is nothing but a marginal NFL backup.

[Jan Reimers]

T, you forgot LaWaylon Brown, Jason Jefferson and Faafetai Tupa'i in your DT analysis. You mean you don't see a budding superstar in that group?

Seriously, I agree with you. We are basically young, inexperienced and untested at DT, and that has to be a major concern.

[Mr. Pink]

Many of us "doom and gloomers" "negative nancys" have been saying the same thing on this. We have no forseeable force at the DT position. It's great and all playing a cover 2 scheme which is set to stymie an opponents passing game, but if we can't stop the run worth a damn what good does it do?

When you have a 285 pound DT, it's very easy for the 330 interior lineman to move him or let him run himself out of a play...which opens big holes and allows the FB to get in on the MLB with ease.

This is exactly why I don't think we have anything close to a .500 team right now let alone a playoff team. If we were to go out and sign a big run stuffing DT such as Big Daddy or Grady I'd feel better about this teams' chances this year.

[Ickybaluky]

McCargo was a highly debated first round pick this year, and while i liked the pick when it was made, the OTAs have shown, at least at this point, that McCargo was selected as a first round back up to Tripplett. I hope that changes, and honestly feel that it was crazy to select a guy in the first round that you project as a back up, but I think it will.

I think that is unfair criticism. All the cover-2 teams rotate their DL to keep them fresh, it is a necessity in that system. Indy and Denver play up to 8 DL in a rotation.

If you draft a CB in the 1st round and he plays nickel for a year before moving to the starting lineup are you unhappy? I think it is similar to that.

Buffalo had to get McCargo because there was a big dropoff in DT who fit their system after him, and they had a big need on DL. The best way to get good DL in the NFL is to draft them and develop them. There are very few good ones that reach FA because teams keep them. Those that do reach FA are overpaid because of demand. You have to draft them when they are there.

[acehole]

I wouldn't worry to much...as was stated...this is a rotation so 300, 293, 302,312 not as big a deal. Like in Hockey these guys in theory will be fresh and quick. Granted if just one of these guys can split the gap well enough to warrant a double team that frees up the rest that much more. I would be more worried about screens and sweep to the OLB's on the outside then running up the middle. Can wait to see the first pre-season game...


i can honestly say that i am more worried about the DT spot than any other position, including QB, OL, TE, LB, and WR.

we dont have a single proven full time starter.

Tripplett was our "big" DL signing, but they guy has never been anything more than a back up in a rotation who got a third of the playing time. He also has never put up numbers that will make anyone think he is better than what we have had here (which isnt much lately). Ron Edwards looked just as productive as a 3rd string DT too. Tripplett better prove to be worth something, because he is the only guy at DT that has any experience at all, be it as a back up, and occasional starter.

McCargo was a highly debated first round pick this year, and while i liked the pick when it was made, the OTAs have shown, at least at this point, that McCargo was selected as a first round back up to Tripplett. I hope that changes, and honestly feel that it was crazy to select a guy in the first round that you project as a back up, but I think it will. I think McCargo will get on the field.. mainly because we have no other starting quality DTs on the roster, and so he should almost get the job by default.

Anderson has shown little to nothing that has ever impressed me since joining the bills 2 years ago as a 3rd round pick. He has not shown the ability to dominate at the nfl level, and has no specialty.. he is average to below average at stopping the run and rushing the passer. not exactly the type of guy i want to hang my starting role on again.

Williams, while he has a nice website, and was a productive college player surrounded by a lot of talent on that LSU defense, is still a 5th round pick that is under 300 lbs and has to learn how to play in the nfl. Being that he doesnt have the physical gifts that McCargo has, i would expect his learning curve to be much more like andersons than anything. i really hope he does well, but i am not expecting a whole hell of a lot.

Sape - come on.. him and all the rest are camp fodder.

we have not one DT on the roster that is considered a run stuffer.. a big man that can clog the middle on the goal line or short yardage situations.. i dont want to hear all the crap about a big man not "fitting the scheme" of the tampa defense. a guy that is 295 lbs is easier to move than a guy who is 350 lbs. when it is 4th and 1, you dont need a guy who is a great pass rusher. you need a guy that doesnt get blown off the line while trying to hold the point of attack.

i hope i am way off here.. but i do not have any confidence at all in what we have right now. None.

[HAMMER]

I think I'll place my faith in Marv and Jauron vs. "Coach Tatonka".

[Tatonka]

nice hammer.. i am not trying to be a coach.. i am simply stating a concern..

but i can understand wanting to put your faith in a team that has not seen the playoffs in a decade, and a head coach that has had one fluke of a winning season to go with all the losing seasons on his resume.

:up:

you keep your faith there.. i will wait to see results before i believe in anything the bills do.. and results are something that this team hasnt gotten in a while.

[TedMock]

i will wait to see results before i believe in anything the bills do.. and results are something that this team hasnt gotten in a while.

You're not gonna be happy this year. Like it, or not, this is a rebuilding year. I hate that word, but it's the truth. The best results we can hope for is steady improvement amongst a very inexperienced team. It's unfair to ask them to make the playoffs this year. Next year, well that's a different story. I don't see us revamping everything next year. Give the regime time to get the system working. All we can do is be patient.

I understand your concern about DT, and it makes sense. I think NE39 is right though. The system we bring in calls for quality in the rotation, not a "full-time" starter. Other teams that use this system, use rotation. The guys are smaller, but they're also fresh. If we were to go with a big DT, Sam Adams made the most sense. He was aready here, he wasn't too expensive, and he was a good DT. Dan Wilkenson is available now, but problem is...he sucks. Big, or not, he's just not good. I don't know what the answer is other than keep your fingers crossed, and hope this team grows.

[justasportsfan]

W/ Undersized DT's all the oline has to do is lay down forward and teams will get their 1st down in qb sneaks :snicker:

I can see rotation wearing down OL who have to keep up w/ fresh DT's coming off the bench who's main purpose is to fly to the ball. Hopefully it'll still be in the hands of the qb or rbs in the backfield.

Since our DT's will be flying to the ball, I hope our lb's are in position to plug the holes especially during a run . I'm worried that Fletcher is gonna be pushed back every now and then.

[OpIv37]

I think that is unfair criticism. All the cover-2 teams rotate their DL to keep them fresh, it is a necessity in that system. Indy and Denver play up to 8 DL in a rotation.

If you draft a CB in the 1st round and he plays nickel for a year before moving to the starting lineup are you unhappy? I think it is similar to that.

Buffalo had to get McCargo because there was a big dropoff in DT who fit their system after him, and they had a big need on DL. The best way to get good DL in the NFL is to draft them and develop them. There are very few good ones that reach FA because teams keep them. Those that do reach FA are overpaid because of demand. You have to draft them when they are there.


That's all well and good for next year, but it still gives us a pretty ****ty DT rotation for this year. Translation: we're in trouble. Teams will be able to run on us, and the Cover 2 won't make a lick of difference if the QB has 10 seconds to find his guy.

[HAMMER]

nice hammer.. i am not trying to be a coach.. i am simply stating a concern..

but i can understand wanting to put your faith in a team that has not seen the playoffs in a decade, and a head coach that has had one fluke of a winning season to go with all the losing seasons on his resume.

:up:

you keep your faith there.. i will wait to see results before i believe in anything the bills do.. and results are something that this team hasnt gotten in a while.

I prefer to keep the faith, the Bills will return to glory. I think you are old enough to remember the last time Marv was with the Bills organization and the positive influence he had. Jauron built the nucleus of the Bears defense that is now very good.

[HAMMER]

I think everyone needs to temper their expectations for our team this year. Call it what you want, rebuilding, new schemes, etc. Bottom line is, there will be growing pains, lots of them, and it shouldn't reflect on our staff until they have two years to develop their roster. People are too impatient, that includes coaches in many instances.

[Billsrock4life]

im a little bit worried more about then OL then DT

[Mr. Pink]

I prefer to keep the faith, the Bills will return to glory. I think you are old enough to remember the last time Marv was with the Bills organization and the positive influence he had. Jauron built the nucleus of the Bears defense that is now very good.


In 2003 the Bears starters were Phillip Daniels, Ted Washington, Keith Traylor, Alex Brown on the DLine, LBers were Warrick Holdman, Brian Urlacher, and Bryan Knight...at corner there was Jerry Azumah and RW McQuarters....safeties Mike Green and Mike Brown. 2003 was also the last year Jauron was coach.

So if you mean the Nucleus of the teams' defense is 3 players, Alex Brown, Brian Urlacher and Mike Brown...then you're right. However their best DLineman never played under Jauron in Ogunleye. Charles Tillman and Lance Briggs were drafted by the club in 03 but didn't start.

BTW the offense looks the same as the Defense, 3 holdovers from Jaurons' regime and Rex Grossman.

So it's great to keep the faith but at least know the facts before believing in "false hopes."

[justasportsfan]

I think everyone needs to temper their expectations for our team this year. Call it what you want, rebuilding, new schemes, etc. Bottom line is, there will be growing pains, lots of them, and it shouldn't reflect on our staff until they have two years to develop their roster. People are too impatient, that includes coaches in many instances.:up: there will be disappoinments and there will be surprises. Keep your expectations low.

[justasportsfan]

In 2003 the Bears starters were Phillip Daniels, Ted Washington, Keith Traylor, Alex Brown on the DLine, LBers were Warrick Holdman, Brian Urlacher, and Bryan Knight...at corner there was Jerry Azumah and RW McQuarters....safeties Mike Green and Mike Brown. 2003 was also the last year Jauron was coach.

So if you mean the Nucleus of the teams' defense is 3 players, Alex Brown, Brian Urlacher and Mike Brown...then you're right. However their best DLineman never played under Jauron in Ogunleye. Charles Tillman and Lance Briggs were drafted by the club in 03 but didn't start.

BTW the offense looks the same as the Defense, 3 holdovers from Jaurons' regime and Rex Grossman.

So it's great to keep the faith but at least know the facts before believing in "false hopes."
Jauron is asked to coach . He isn't being asked to play GM and coach at the same time like he did when he was with the bears.

Marv has so far played his cards right. Asked the coaches for their inputs and went to Modrak to assess these players. The Bills aren't set up like the Nazzi TD regime of recent past and yet there's still a problem.

[Mr. Pink]

Jauron is asked to coach . He isn't being asked to play GM and coach at the same time like he did when he was with the bears.

Marv has so far played his cards right. Asked the coaches for their inputs and went to Modrak to assess these players. The Bills aren't set up like the Nazzi TD regime of recent past and yet there's still a problem.

I agree that it's not the coaches job to bring players in...but I was directly commenting on the other poster saying that Jauron set up the nucleus of the team, which isn't entirely true.

And going by what you said, it also makes his statement on Marv and what he did not completely true. Considering Polian built the team.

[justasportsfan]

And going by what you said, it also makes his statement on Marv and what he did not completely true. Considering Polian built the team.Marv has been asking advice from Poilan in buliding a team and seems to have stuck to it. Build via the draft. He hasn't been acting like a know it all GM which is why everyone has an input.

[Mr. Pink]

Marv has been asking advice from Poilan in buliding a team and seems to have stuck to it. Build via the draft. He hasn't been acting like a know it all GM which is why everyone has an input.


Which delegating is a good thing when you're not entirely experienced on the job at hand. The only problem I have with it is that Modrak is still here who obviously had some kind of input on TDs regime and we know how far that got us as a franchise.

[justasportsfan]

Which delegating is a good thing when you're not entirely experienced on the job at hand. The only problem I have with it is that Modrak is still here who obviously had some kind of input on TDs regime and we know how far that got us as a franchise. Modrak built The eagles. He was highly regarded by TD but not necesarily as active as you might think. TD had the final say. Not Modrak.

[Night Train]

The only problem I have with it is that Modrak is still here who obviously had some kind of input on TDs regime and we know how far that got us as a franchise.

How so ? I've seen you mention this in a couple posts, like he had major say over the Draft and Vets. Misdirected blame. He had zero to do with the Vets.

Modrak was on the road scouting College players. I saw him in camp and he said he was leaving in late August to visit college campuses during the football season. While he compiled a player list, he didn't even have the final say on any picks, since that was all TD. ( Roscoe Parrish, anyone ? ) . Dwight Adams said that in a couple interviews, so I'll take his word over ones imagination.

This draft was more concensus than any draft we had in years, instead of one person basically making up his own roster.

I don't mind Modrak being here at all. He asks the Coaches what they want, then shows them the player ratings at those positions of need.

[ParanoidAndroid]

We didn't draft McCargo to be a back-up in the traditional sense. He will get plenty of playing time in a rotating system.
Anderson began showing up later in the season. He still over ran the play on occasion, but he made some plays including a few behind the LOS. I think he is progressing about as well as we could expect.
I think we drafted his equivalent in Williams, only 2 rounds later. There are your 4 DT's for this year. They will be both difficult to watch and intriguing to watch as they develop as players and as a cohesive group. It's not exactly comforting, but it doesn't give me a hopeless feeling either.

[Mr. Pink]

How so ? I've seen you mention this in a couple posts, like he had major say over the Draft and Vets. Misdirected blame. He had zero to do with the Vets.

Modrak was on the road scouting College players. I saw him in camp and he said he was leaving in late August to visit college campuses during the football season. While he compiled a player list, he didn't even have the final say on any picks, since that was all TD. ( Roscoe Parrish, anyone ? ) . Dwight Adams said that in a couple interviews, so I'll take his word over ones imagination.

This draft was more concensus than any draft we had in years, instead of one person basically making up his own roster.

I don't mind Modrak being here at all. He asks the Coaches what they want, then shows them the player ratings at those positions of need.


Again, some kind of input, he was off doing the college scouting, so who do you think TD relied on when it came to input of players to draft? Whether he took all the advice is a matter of conjecture but he still had some input otherwise he's just a figurehead sitting around collecting salary to do nothing. Not very cost effective.

[Night Train]

Again, some kind of input, he was off doing the college scouting, so who do you think TD relied on when it came to input of players to draft? Whether he took all the advice is a matter of conjecture but he still had some input otherwise he's just a figurehead sitting around collecting salary to do nothing. Not very cost effective.

He compiled a list of players at every position and rated them. TD is famous for his niche picks, even with Pittsburgh ( WR Troy Edwards ring a bell ? ).

Title aside, he's head scout. He doesn't pick the direction of the draft.

Guilt by association ? Then why didn't Marv dump him ? Ralph wouldn't have stood in his way.

[patmoran2006]

I have no problem with Tripplett..
I have no problem trading up for McCargo.
I have no problem with a 7-8 man DL rotation.

I DO have a problem with us not signing a DT in FA who was built to stuff the run... Laugh all you want, I'd sign Big Daddy TOMMOROW.. He doesnt need to be a ProBowler.. He needs to be solid 40-50% snaps per game.

[ICE74129]

i can honestly say that i am more worried about the DT spot than any other position, including QB, OL, TE, LB, and WR.

we dont have a single proven full time starter.

Tripplett was our "big" DL signing, but they guy has never been anything more than a back up in a rotation who got a third of the playing time. He also has never put up numbers that will make anyone think he is better than what we have had here (which isnt much lately). Ron Edwards looked just as productive as a 3rd string DT too. Tripplett better prove to be worth something, because he is the only guy at DT that has any experience at all, be it as a back up, and occasional starter.

McCargo was a highly debated first round pick this year, and while i liked the pick when it was made, the OTAs have shown, at least at this point, that McCargo was selected as a first round back up to Tripplett. I hope that changes, and honestly feel that it was crazy to select a guy in the first round that you project as a back up, but I think it will. I think McCargo will get on the field.. mainly because we have no other starting quality DTs on the roster, and so he should almost get the job by default.

Anderson has shown little to nothing that has ever impressed me since joining the bills 2 years ago as a 3rd round pick. He has not shown the ability to dominate at the nfl level, and has no specialty.. he is average to below average at stopping the run and rushing the passer. not exactly the type of guy i want to hang my starting role on again.

Williams, while he has a nice website, and was a productive college player surrounded by a lot of talent on that LSU defense, is still a 5th round pick that is under 300 lbs and has to learn how to play in the nfl. Being that he doesnt have the physical gifts that McCargo has, i would expect his learning curve to be much more like andersons than anything. i really hope he does well, but i am not expecting a whole hell of a lot.

Sape - come on.. him and all the rest are camp fodder.

we have not one DT on the roster that is considered a run stuffer.. a big man that can clog the middle on the goal line or short yardage situations.. i dont want to hear all the crap about a big man not "fitting the scheme" of the tampa defense. a guy that is 295 lbs is easier to move than a guy who is 350 lbs. when it is 4th and 1, you dont need a guy who is a great pass rusher. you need a guy that doesnt get blown off the line while trying to hold the point of attack.

i hope i am way off here.. but i do not have any confidence at all in what we have right now. None.

Come on now T. We drafted a Rotational, backup DT in the first round. Anderson will start opposite Tripplet. Don't you know those undersized backups will be able to stop the run just fine. Just ask Marv he will be glad to tell ya! (sarcasm off)

[Tatonka]

i wouldnt sign big daddy..

but i would be on the phone with buckner getting him in here for a reasonable price. he is basically the prototype for what we want our DTs to be.. he was a good to great DT, who is older now and on the downside of his career, but he could still help this team.. on and off the field.

i would feel a lot better if we signed him.