How does the Tampa 2 stop the run?

[OpIv37]

I've seen a lot of stuff about how it stops the pass, but nothing about the run. The system relies on smaller guys up front to pressure the QB, and the MLB is supposed to be helping the safety with playing pass D on potential receivers beyond 15 yards of the LOS.

Well, if the MLB is dropping deep and we have small guys up front, how the hell do we stop the run? If it's an obvious run situation, the MLB can cheat up. But if it's say, 2nd and 6, how do you keep the MLB close enough the the LOS to help with the run without leaving the middle of the field open for a 20 yard pass?

[ICE74129]

OPV dude relax. Tampa was 6th against the run this year. How do they stop the run? Talent. Which is why we won't be able to.

[OpIv37]

I'm just asking an honest question here. There's obviously something about this D that I don't understand and I'm hoping someone can fill me in.

[ICE74129]

I'm just asking an honest question here. There's obviously something about this D that I don't understand and I'm hoping someone can fill me in.

Well I can say I have seen it RAN OVER....

[justasportsfan]

How does the Tampa 2 stop the run?


Tackle the rb? :idunno:

[Dozerdog]

Basically- instead of fat guys like Sam Adams holding their ground and occupying blockers for Linebackers to clean up ( see London Fletcher's #s the past 3 seasons) the OL guys are supposed to be quick off the ball and get around/by the blocks and disrupt the run in the backfield- or at least clog up the running lanes.


The idea is to beat the big, slow OL guy with quickness. He can't push you out of the way if you beat him on the snap.

[OpIv37]

Basically- instead of fat guys like Sam Adams holding their ground and occupying blockers for Linebackers to clean up ( see London Fletcher's #s the past 3 seasons) the OL guys are supposed to be quick off the ball and get around/by the blocks and disrupt the run in the backfield- or at least clog up the running lanes.


The idea is to beat the big, slow OL guy with quickness. He can't push you out of the way if you beat him on the snap.

Thanks Dozer- that makes some sense.

What about goal line/short yardarge situations? That's scary.

[Mr. Pink]

Thanks Dozer- that makes some sense.

What about goal line/short yardarge situations? That's scary.


Here's my take on how the cover 2 stops the run...much like the 3-4 in some aspects just a different way of going about it.

The Dline has to get penetration and disrupt the running lanes and force RBs to bounce everything back which gives the LBers time to read and react and close the cutback lanes to stuff the running game.

If you don't get pressure from the front 4 this defense will get run all over much like the 3-4 in that aspect also.

In short yardage, you're going to see a goalline type package anyways, so the cover 2 is moot....the safetys will play up as will the backers. Considering most teams on 3rd and 1 will call a running play as opposed to a 20 yard pass.

[OpIv37]

.

In short yardage, you're going to see a goalline type package anyways, so the cover 2 is moot....the safetys will play up as will the backers. Considering most teams on 3rd and 1 will call a running play as opposed to a 20 yard pass.
that's true but you need to get some push from your DL to win a goal line/short yardage situation. That's going to be difficult when the offensive guards outweigh them by 40 lbs.

[Mr. Pink]

It all comes down to how much havoc they can cause in the backfield....if they get no pressure from the front 4 this defense can be exploited and exploited big. Makes no difference run or pass wise. It's also a defense that works as a "bend but don't break" defense. We're going to see a defense that lets teams march slowly up and down the field all day long with hopes of tightening up in the red zone. But it's also a defense that won't, well shouldn't give up the home run play, as long as the safeties aren't burnt and can tackle. Realistically this year Donte Whitner could lead the team in tackles.

[pintonick96]

The key is also to have fast athletic linebackers. They have to be fast enough to run up from playing deep to make tackles. That's why LBs like Derrick Brooks and Lance Briggs work so well in these systems.

[OpIv37]

The key is also to have fast athletic linebackers. They have to be fast enough to run up from playing deep to make tackles. That's why LBs like Derrick Brooks and Lance Briggs work so well in these systems.

See ya, Posey.

If you're right about this Crowell will be starting before the bye.

[Stewie]

I'm just asking an honest question here. There's obviously something about this D that I don't understand and I'm hoping someone can fill me in.

What you don't understand or aren't paying attention to is your assumption that players official weight translates directly into their ability to play football...

This isn't a weight competition, it's a football game. Otherwise we'd just get all the failed sumo wrestlers over here to play DT. There's a reason that hasn't happened. Sam Adams wasn't stopping the run on the 75% of plays he had to watch from the sideline. Neither was pat williams when he was out half the time.

Technique and leverage matter in the trenches... thats why reggie white and bruce smith were so good.. neither of them generally outweighed offensive lineman, but they sure as hell knew how to move them out of the way.

you're being myopic when you assume that a DT with an extra 40 pounds is the difference between being good and being bad against the run. you could just as easily say that weight is the difference between him being on the field and catching his breath on the sideline.

[Mr B]

The Bucs stop the run with good coaching. It is a gap control defense.

[patmoran2006]

Cover two..........4-3................ 4-6..............3-4......... Nine in the box.......... Tic Tac Toe...

It doesnt matter. .The key to stopping the run is having a front seven that can get to the ball and tackle, and a safety like Whitner (Milloy back in the day) that can knock someone's helmet off.

[OpIv37]

What you don't understand or aren't paying attention to is your assumption that players official weight translates directly into their ability to play football...

This isn't a weight competition, it's a football game. Otherwise we'd just get all the failed sumo wrestlers over here to play DT. There's a reason that hasn't happened. Sam Adams wasn't stopping the run on the 75% of plays he had to watch from the sideline. Neither was pat williams when he was out half the time.

Technique and leverage matter in the trenches... thats why reggie white and bruce smith were so good.. neither of them generally outweighed offensive lineman, but they sure as hell knew how to move them out of the way.

you're being myopic when you assume that a DT with an extra 40 pounds is the difference between being good and being bad against the run. you could just as easily say that weight is the difference between him being on the field and catching his breath on the sideline.

Bruce Smith was a DE, not a DT. He also weighed 275 pounds with 3% body fat- flabby OL's didn't stand a chance. Sam Adams and Pat Williams didn't make a lot of tackles, but they got push and occupied blockers, which allowed Spikes and Fletcher to make plays (or Milloy on the blitz). Technique and coaching can help in most situations, but those extra 40 pounds mean everything in short yardage/goal line situations.

[X-Era]

I've seen a lot of stuff about how it stops the pass, but nothing about the run. The system relies on smaller guys up front to pressure the QB, and the MLB is supposed to be helping the safety with playing pass D on potential receivers beyond 15 yards of the LOS.

Well, if the MLB is dropping deep and we have small guys up front, how the hell do we stop the run? If it's an obvious run situation, the MLB can cheat up. But if it's say, 2nd and 6, how do you keep the MLB close enough the the LOS to help with the run without leaving the middle of the field open for a 20 yard pass?

I think the reliance on fast players who fly to the ball will be an assett and we will do well.

However, I think a bigger problem than the scheme is the speed at which we become proficient at it. It may take a season to fully understand it and run it well.

But yes, I think our team speed will prove to be a big plus in running this.

[Tatonka]

What you don't understand or aren't paying attention to is your assumption that players official weight translates directly into their ability to play football...

This isn't a weight competition, it's a football game. Otherwise we'd just get all the failed sumo wrestlers over here to play DT. There's a reason that hasn't happened. Sam Adams wasn't stopping the run on the 75% of plays he had to watch from the sideline. Neither was pat williams when he was out half the time.

Technique and leverage matter in the trenches... thats why reggie white and bruce smith were so good.. neither of them generally outweighed offensive lineman, but they sure as hell knew how to move them out of the way.

you're being myopic when you assume that a DT with an extra 40 pounds is the difference between being good and being bad against the run. you could just as easily say that weight is the difference between him being on the field and catching his breath on the sideline.

one of the best posts i have read in months on here.

:up:

[Tatonka]

Bruce Smith was a DE, not a DT. He also weighed 275 pounds with 3% body fat- flabby OL's didn't stand a chance. Sam Adams and Pat Williams didn't make a lot of tackles, but they got push and occupied blockers, which allowed Spikes and Fletcher to make plays (or Milloy on the blitz). Technique and coaching can help in most situations, but those extra 40 pounds mean everything in short yardage/goal line situations.


the OL will not be worried about our LBs if they miss their blocks on the DL. The LB will slap the OL on the ass as they run by them after they wiff on the tackles.

theoretically.

[Mr. Pink]

one of the best posts i have read in months on here.

:up:


Except he's comparing DEs and DTs....DEs are NORMALLY smaller than DTs because they need to speed to rush not just power....DTs are normally a power position.

Another problem Reggie White was a small guy? If you consider 6'5" 300 small then sure...BTW that's his size as a DE not a DT completely diffierent position and responsibility in scheme.

Bruce Smith fits better with his argument other than position seeing Bruce was 6'4" 265.

Also, interior lineman are generally larger than the tackles. The tackles are the smaller athletic type who have to deal with speed rush ends like Freeney, Peppers, Kearse.

If you had a 320 pound Center/Guard vs a 290 DT....generally the 320 pounder is going to win. Especially in a run situation, seeing again generally speaking more size is more strength. Everyone in the NFL has skill, talent, ability, in run blocking it's the stronger guy that is going to win 7 times out of 10.

[Stewie]

Bruce Smith was a DE, not a DT. He also weighed 275 pounds with 3% body fat- flabby OL's didn't stand a chance. Sam Adams and Pat Williams didn't make a lot of tackles, but they got push and occupied blockers, which allowed Spikes and Fletcher to make plays (or Milloy on the blitz). Technique and coaching can help in most situations, but those extra 40 pounds mean everything in short yardage/goal line situations.

So you're saying that unless you have a freakish build (3% bodyfat) that a DL is better off being fat?

Bruce was a DE in a 3-4. He was always doubleteamed by the LG and LT. He seemed to stand up just fine against the run in those situations. And it had nothing to do with how fat he was. He he saw as many or more double and triple teams than any DT will ever see.

Neither fat pat nor fat sam were making plays or occupying blockers when their fat asses were huffing and puffing on the bench. They MIGHT have both been on the field together for 40% of the defensive snaps. 3rd/4th and short comprise, what, 10% of the defensive plays at most?

Do you really think it's smart to build your defense to capitalize on 10% of their opportunities?

Do you really believe that every 350 pounder in the world will automatically outpush every 300 pounder? That extra weight really means everything? I thought stopping the ballcarrier behind the first down marker meant everything. Do you think that everyone who weighs 350 is built the same, has the same strength? Do you also believe that players listed weight is their actual weight?

Seriously, the idea is laughable.

[pintonick96]

Weight and size mean alot, but it's not everything. Ask Dwight Freeney, Max Meisel, Elvis Dumervil, Wayne Chrebet, Nick Papagelis, Doug Flutie, Rex Grossman and others who were considered short if size means that much.

[Stewie]

Except he's comparing DEs and DTs....DEs are NORMALLY smaller than DTs because they need to speed to rush not just power....DTs are normally a power position.

Another problem Reggie White was a small guy? If you consider 6'5" 300 small then sure...BTW that's his size as a DE not a DT completely diffierent position and responsibility in scheme.

Bruce Smith fits better with his argument other than position seeing Bruce was 6'4" 265.

Also, interior lineman are generally larger than the tackles. The tackles are the smaller athletic type who have to deal with speed rush ends like Freeney, Peppers, Kearse.

If you had a 320 pound Center/Guard vs a 290 DT....generally the 320 pounder is going to win. Especially in a run situation, seeing again generally speaking more size is more strength. Everyone in the NFL has skill, talent, ability, in run blocking it's the stronger guy that is going to win 7 times out of 10.

Just cause you have skill doesn't mean you don't make mistakes in technique.

Everyone is built differently. A 6'7 center that weighs 330 could easily have weaker upper body strength than a 6'2 DT who weighs 300. And any physicist well tell you, power means nothing unless it's applied to the correct vector... eg: technique and leverage mean everything.

Anyway, guys like Dwight Freeny, Doug Flutie, Steve Smith, Barry Sanders etc etc etc have proven time and time again... when it's time to get on the field, you can take your prototypical numbers and shove 'em.. It's football, not statistics.

[Mr. Pink]

Just cause you have skill doesn't mean you don't make mistakes in technique.

Everyone is built differently. A 6'7 center that weighs 330 could easily have weaker upper body strength than a 6'2 DT who weighs 300. And any physicist well tell you, power means nothing unless it's applied to the correct vector... eg: technique and leverage mean everything.

Anyway, guys like Dwight Freeny, Doug Flutie, Steve Smith, Barry Sanders etc etc etc have proven time and time again... when it's time to get on the field, you can take your prototypical numbers and shove 'em.. It's football, not statistics.


These are true yes....which is why I said MOST of the time not all the time. There's exceptions to everything. Generally speaking though a 285-290 pound DT is gonna get mauled every play, see the Browns of last year with Jason Fisk.

And there is a HUGE difference between skill position players and size than maulers at the line....So I don't see how Flutie-who really wasn't good at the NFL level, Sanders or Smith fit in your argument. Everyone knows speed kills at skill position player slots. Which is why Smith is so successful, Sanders was successful because of his agility. Freeney is successful because instead of having to engage blockers he can use a swim move, strafe, slap and go around them.

The difference is at DT, you're engaging someone pretty much every play, and it's not always just one guy who engages you it can be 2. Why was Sam Adams so ineffective last year? Because the stiffs next to him would get mauled and then the interior lineman would be allowed to chip on him. When this occurs NO ONE is gonna be successful. Point being you're not outrunning or going around someone with your speed at DT because there's too many bodies in such a small space.

[OpIv37]

Just cause you have skill doesn't mean you don't make mistakes in technique.

Everyone is built differently. A 6'7 center that weighs 330 could easily have weaker upper body strength than a 6'2 DT who weighs 300. And any physicist well tell you, power means nothing unless it's applied to the correct vector... eg: technique and leverage mean everything.

Anyway, guys like Dwight Freeny, Doug Flutie, Steve Smith, Barry Sanders etc etc etc have proven time and time again... when it's time to get on the field, you can take your prototypical numbers and shove 'em.. It's football, not statistics.

you're proving a point with the exception, not the rule. Just because some freakishly good athletes were successful when they were undersized for their positions doesn't mean everyone and their brother can do the same ****.

[Dozerdog]

you're proving a point with the exception, not the rule. Just because some freakishly good athletes were successful when they were undersized for their positions doesn't mean everyone and their brother can do the same ****.


I would think that if "undersized" (by your book) DL can't stop the run, then why are teams implimenting the cover 2 defense at all?

It must have some success/merit due to teams going with it and getting the job done. Otherwise, it would not be in the NFL today.

[Mr. Pink]

I would think that if "undersized" (by your book) DL can't stop the run, then why are teams implimenting the cover 2 defense at all?

It must have some success/merit due to teams going with it and getting the job done. Otherwise, it would not be in the NFL today.


Alot of teams implement this type of defense because they don't have the quality players necessary to play otherwise. The Safeties generally play the deep area of the field so they don't get beat deep. It keeps every play in front of you with hopes you can force the offense into a mistake. And it relies on the defensive becoming stingy in the red zone to limit other teams to FGs as opposed to TDs.

And no, I'm not suggesting this is the reason why we've implanted this style of D.

[OpIv37]

I would think that if "undersized" (by your book) DL can't stop the run, then why are teams implimenting the cover 2 defense at all?

It must have some success/merit due to teams going with it and getting the job done. Otherwise, it would not be in the NFL today.

let's install the West Coast Offense while we're at it. After all, that's in the NFL today. Plus it worked so well the last time we tried it....

[Dozerdog]

let's install the West Coast Offense while we're at it. After all, that's in the NFL today. Plus it worked so well the last time we tried it....

What does that have to do with anything we are talking about?

Here we go again...you are *****ing we have 285-295 pound DL- we explain why 330 pounders don't work in the defense scheme we are using...a defense used successfully around the league...but that doesn't matter.


Stay with the tunnel vision. It's useless keeping up the dialogue. It's like trying to rationalize with a pile of bricks.



If you want to agree to disagree on the concept- fine. But it's obvios it's OP's way or the highway.


You win. We suck....it's useless.

Glad I stayed with that thinking with the Sabres last August

[patmoran2006]

I will say this in regards to the Bills DL..

I did a lot of *****in and moanin myself in March when the Bills failed to sign a number of players I was hoping we would.. In retrospect guys like Stephen Neal, Runyon, Marlon Mcree and a few others were probably smart moves not to sign.

BUT.. Ryan Pickett is the one guy we should have "overpaid" for. With a cover two, he was TOO important to let skate. He sure as hell didnt have loyalty to GB, he went to the highest bidder.. With the cap shape we're in combined with a few puzzling additions we threw money at (Reed & Price), Pickett would have been a FORCE for us at the "1" spot..

Of if not him, someone else like Kendrick Clancy. I love the Tripplett/McCargo potential, but I REFUSE to believe Tim Anderson is this evolving star, and I dont want a 5th round rookie to be his primary backup, he wont be ready.

To me, the "1" spot on the depth chart was our biggest offseason thing we didnt take care of.

I do think people are underestimating what McCargo and Tripps will bring to the pass rush, but you have to make them pass for them to do their thing.

[Stewie]

These are true yes....which is why I said MOST of the time not all the time. There's exceptions to everything. Generally speaking though a 285-290 pound DT is gonna get mauled every play, see the Browns of last year with Jason Fisk.

And there is a HUGE difference between skill position players and size than maulers at the line....So I don't see how Flutie-who really wasn't good at the NFL level, Sanders or Smith fit in your argument. Everyone knows speed kills at skill position player slots. Which is why Smith is so successful, Sanders was successful because of his agility. Freeney is successful because instead of having to engage blockers he can use a swim move, strafe, slap and go around them.

The difference is at DT, you're engaging someone pretty much every play, and it's not always just one guy who engages you it can be 2. Why was Sam Adams so ineffective last year? Because the stiffs next to him would get mauled and then the interior lineman would be allowed to chip on him. When this occurs NO ONE is gonna be successful. Point being you're not outrunning or going around someone with your speed at DT because there's too many bodies in such a small space.

Flutie sanders and smith all did well in the league even tho they were too small, not gonna be durable enough, etc.

Look the bottom line is this... there are plenty of 500 pound people in the world for one NFL general manager to take a shot at signing one. If the "extra 40 pounds makes all the difference" theory held any water, sumo wrestlers would thrive as DT's in the NFL. After all, wouldn't it make sense to have a humongous 4th tackle on the roster, a guy who could step on the field for 3rd/4th and 1 and shove the center back five yards?

But there isn't a single one for a good reason. Weight is overrated.

[Stewie]

you're proving a point with the exception, not the rule. Just because some freakishly good athletes were successful when they were undersized for their positions doesn't mean everyone and their brother can do the same ****.

Exactly. And just cause someone weighs 340 pounds, it doesn't mean he's a better football player than someone who's 300 pounds.

[Mahdi]

The Tampa 2 system of defense stops the run with Gap Assignments. Rather than D-Linemen taking on blockers and pushing them back or out of the way, the DL are assigned gaps which they are responsible for. Now in order to be responsible for that gap the DL have to be fast in order to fill it quickly. Then its the LBs job to read the play and fill in the empty gaps left by the DL. Essentially the front 7 should be too fast for the O-line to react to and it ends up in broken plays for the offense. Once that is done, the RB should have no holes to run through and is subsequently tackled for a loss or short yardage. Also, the DBs have to be good tacklers because if a run is bounced outside due to the lack of holes through the middle they need to be able to make the play. Clements, McGee, Whitner, Youboty and Ko are all great tacklers.

[madness]

Cover two..........4-3................ 4-6..............3-4......... Nine in the box.......... Tic Tac Toe...

It doesnt matter. .The key to stopping the run is having a front seven that can get to the ball and tackle, and a safety like Whitner (Milloy back in the day) that can knock someone's helmet off.

Sorry Pat, I'm calling you out on this one. There's no way in hell that a game of Tic Tac Toe can stop a Larry Johnson or a L.T., just no way. :shakeno:

[LifetimeBillsFan]

The Tampa 2 system of defense stops the run with Gap Assignments. Rather than D-Linemen taking on blockers and pushing them back or out of the way, the DL are assigned gaps which they are responsible for. Now in order to be responsible for that gap the DL have to be fast in order to fill it quickly. Then its the LBs job to read the play and fill in the empty gaps left by the DL. Essentially the front 7 should be too fast for the O-line to react to and it ends up in broken plays for the offense. Once that is done, the RB should have no holes to run through and is subsequently tackled for a loss or short yardage. Also, the DBs have to be good tacklers because if a run is bounced outside due to the lack of holes through the middle they need to be able to make the play. Clements, McGee, Whitner, Youboty and Ko are all great tacklers.

Thank you! Good explanation.

The difference is push vs penetration. Size vs speed and quickness.

You have to change your mindset, OpIv, from what you have been used to seeing to something that operates on a different principle.

In a size/strength vs size/strength match-up, greater size/strength will always win if technique is equal, although technique can overcome an advantage in size sometimes. But, this involves a different kind of match-up where size can be a liability if it decreases speed and quickness, even at the "1-gap" position and in short yardage.

The idea is not to push the opponent back, but to get penetration--rather than engage the blocker, you try to avoid the blocker--so that, even if you don't get to the ball-carrier, you throw off the blocking scheme so that your quick, fast LBs can knife through and make the play. Technique is important because you have to keep the offensive lineman off of you (so that he can't use his size advantage) and as a weapon to force two offensive players to block you to negate your penetration (which fouls up the blocking scheme, which generally puts man on man). Pursuit is essential because the idea is to force the back to look for an opening and cut back, while he's doing that, the pursuit can cut him down before he finds a crease to go through. The idea is to put the pressure on the offense to adapt to the changing situation brought about by the defense's speed and quickness during the course of the play.

In short yardage and the red zone, you try to stuff the play by getting penetration rather than pushing the offense back. Get bodies to the ball before they can push you back.

The philosophy behind it is you can't hit me, if you can't catch me and I hit you first. Think of it as Leonard vs Hearns. Or, a Shane Mosley/Roy Jones boxing match against a power puncher. Speed and quickness are the key. And, that is why it is so essential to have people who fit the system to play it: because if everyone who is on the field isn't quick and fast enough to beat opposition with his speed and quickness, holes will open up (just as they will if you aren't big enough in a defense predicated on size/strength) in the defense that can be exploited.

Finally, on Anderson: Anderson really wasn't a fit in the defense that the Bills were playing last season because he was undersized to play the position the way it has to be played in that defense (just looking at him and Pat Williams, who excelled in that defense will tell you that!). But, he played in a Cover 2 scheme at Ohio State and excelled in that system in college--he was a key player on the defensive line for the team that won the National Championship. I think he may be a better fit in this defense and may surprise with his performance this season because of that. But, since I don't know that for sure, I want to wait and see how Anderson looks playing in this system. at least, in the preseason first before I come to any firm conclusions about him and his future in the NFL.

[TedMock]

A few people have already touched on this. It is indeed a different philosophy all together. It's a very disciplined, penetrating approach. IF the DL stay in their gaps, and knife through a little, the RB's will have to shift direction. It's extremely important to have speedy LB's and sound tackling DB's. You will see a lot of stunts, but the gap mentality will still be there. Where we'll hurt is if the OL is beating us to the hole, and turning our DT's backs to the play. This will allow the pulling lineman, fullbacks, etc. to hit their assigned holes faster, and get bodies on our 2nd and 3rd levels. It's all about disruption at the line. Keep the little guys free, and let them make a bunch of tackle.

[jmb1099]

One word regarding the size weight issue: Balance.
Too light= pushed around, too heavy=fatigue
Balance of the two is key always has been always will be
There are some freaks on both sides of the fence that defy the rule, but there is a reason behind that as well. In the case of Bruce Smith his work out regimen and diet were extremely disciplined as was his mind regarding the technique of the position. Key for the most part is balance.

[socalfan]

I don't think the coaching staff is looking for small DTs for a Tampa 2 defense. I think if they found a big guy that was quick enough for the Tampa 2 defense they would still use him. They simply want 4 guys that can rush the passer and run to the ball. This did not describe Ted Washington nor Pat Williams.

Also, there were many games in which Bruce Smith lined up over the center. This happened usually when the opponent had two or three guys blocking him at the DE position. He was still affective when lined up over the center.

[OpIv37]

What does that have to do with anything we are talking about?

Here we go again...you are *****ing we have 285-295 pound DL- we explain why 330 pounders don't work in the defense scheme we are using...a defense used successfully around the league...but that doesn't matter.


Stay with the tunnel vision. It's useless keeping up the dialogue. It's like trying to rationalize with a pile of bricks.



If you want to agree to disagree on the concept- fine. But it's obvios it's OP's way or the highway.


You win. We suck....it's useless.

Glad I stayed with that thinking with the Sabres last August

it has to do with what we're talking about because not every coaching scheme can work with every team- you need the right personnel and the right coaches. Just because it worked somewhere else with 285 lb DT's doesn't mean it will work here (just like the WCO)

And no one has explained how the Cover 2 works in goal line situations where it becomes all about power and the extra weight makes all the difference.

And if what TedMock says about the LB's is true, we're in deep **** because Fletch is old and slowing down, Posey has always been slow and TKO is coming back from an injury that usually slows players down.

We may be looking at another square peg in a round hole here.

[Mahdi]

it has to do with what we're talking about because not every coaching scheme can work with every team- you need the right personnel and the right coaches. Just because it worked somewhere else with 285 lb DT's doesn't mean it will work here (just like the WCO)

And no one has explained how the Cover 2 works in goal line situations where it becomes all about power and the extra weight makes all the difference.

And if what TedMock says about the LB's is true, we're in deep **** because Fletch is old and slowing down, Posey has always been slow and TKO is coming back from an injury that usually slows players down.

We may be looking at another square peg in a round hole here.
It was explained though how it works in Goal-line situations. The D-Line works to get penetration in the backfield rather than knocking people off the ball. If you watch the Colts game against the Cards week 15 last year youll see how they stopped the Cards 3 times on the goal-line. Also, the Bucs and Bears seem to do quite well in short yardage situations as well.

[Typ0]

If your fast and have good defensive backs I can say one word to stop the run--BLITZ.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

You raise a good point about the LBs, OpIv--that is something that we are just going to have to wait to see how some of these players work out in this new scheme--but, it may not be quite as bad as you may think:

Fletcher made his name playing in this scheme before he came to the Bills. Now, that was a few years ago and he is older now and has taken a lot of hits in the meantime, so it is fair to ask whether he still has the speed necessary to be effective in this defense (especially since he had some problems covering RBs deep down the middle in G.Williams' last season with the Bills). Fletcher will have to demonstrate that he still has the speed to get the job done in the preseason--if he doesn't, it could be a real problem because IMHO the Bills will need his leadership on the field as much as possible this season. That is my biggest concern at this point.

You rightly point out that there is no guarantee that Spikes will be able to return from his injury with the same kind of speed that he had before he was hurt. If he does, the Bills are in great shape because he was a player who had the speed and quickness to either play on the outside or in the middle in this defense (which would give the Bills insurance in case Fletcher has lost too much of a step with age to play in the middle effectively again). If Spikes has lost a step, he still could be effective if he hasn't lost too much speed and Fletcher is fast enough to play in the MLB spot--but still, it could be a problem. The Bills need to have either Fletcher or Spikes be fast enough to play effectively in this system, preferably both.

Posey, as you point out, is the biggest question-mark of all of the LBs. While he has, at times, been decent in coverage in the old defensive system, it is very doubtful that he has enough speed to be very good at LB in this one--he certainly doesn't have ideal speed for the system. Indeed, he may actually be better suited for use situationally as a pass-rushing DE in this system because he knows how to move through traffic on the field and would have more speed than most OTs that he would be up against. And, as you already know, the Bills' coaches have put out the word that they are looking at Posey as a possible DE. Depending on what happens with Fletcher and Spikes, I see Posey as definitely being the "odd man out" in the LB crew and expect him to get less and less playing time at LB as the season goes on. I seriously doubt he will be with the Bills next season (and maybe not even this season).

Crowell has the idea size and speed to play in the middle or on the outside in this defense and he will see a lot of playing time this season. The question is, where? Ideally, if Spikes comes back completely recovered and Fletcher still has enough left to get the job done in the middle, Crowell will probably unseat Posey and start at his spot. If Spikes doesn't come back with quite enough speed to be effective on the weak side, they may flip-flop Crowell and Spikes, putting Spikes on the strong-side and Crowell on the weak side. In both instances, the Bills will still be in pretty good shape.

The thre worst case scenarios for the Bills are if Spikes loses so much speed after his recovery that he can't play on the strong side of this defense; if Fletcher can't get the job done in this defense at MLB; or if both Fletcher and Spikes have lost too much speed to be effective.

In the first case, Crowell could replace Spikes, but the Bills would then have to choose between playing Posey, Stamer or Ellison as their third LB. IMHO Posey would probably be a liability. However, Stamer has played in this type of defense before and reportedly is very fast, fast enough to play effectively in this scheme. So, it is likely that Stamer would end up battling Posey for the strong-side job. The Bills drafted Ellison because, after he gets a little stronger (puts on about 10 pounds), he could play any one of the three LB positions in this defense--he was very productive playing the weakside in this defense in college. When he's ready to step in and log heavy minutes, Ellison would probably be the guy to replace Stamer and Posey in the starting trio that the Bills put on the field, but he isn't likely to be at that point until mid-season, probably at the earliest. This scenario would also present a PR and lockerroom nightmare for the Bills because, even if he is a shell of his former self, how do you bench Spikes, even if it is necessary from a playing standpoint? I wouldn't want to be the coach to have to do that!

If it's Fletcher who can't get the job done, but Spikes is OK, the Bills have two choices: they can let Posey and Stamer battle it out for the strong-side job and start Crowell in the middle or they can leave Crowell on the outside with Spikes and start Ezekiel in the middle. Ezekiel is another guy who was very productive in college playing this system and he has reportedly been doing well in the OTA sessions. But, we haven't seen him and have no idea how good he is, which leaves us with no way to judge whether he has what it takes to replace Fletcher at MLB should the need ever arise. As with case above, benching Fletcher because he has lost too much speed would also present the Bills with a PR and lockerroom nightmare. Fletcher and Spikes are the two guys who addressed the team at halftimes of three games last season in an effort to get the team to play better and Fletcher was one of the few Bills to publicly state that everyone on the team needed to take a good look in the mirror on more than one occasion last year. Having to bench him because he no longer has the speed to get the job done would leave a huge void in leadership on and off of the field. Fletcher showed enough speed last season to probably be able to still get the job done on running plays, so I think that he Bills would probably try to spot relieve him on passing downs if he shows that he no longer has the speed to cover the deep middle on passing downs. That would still leave them somewhat vulnerable, but not as much.

In the third instance, the Bills would probably try to "mix-and-match", situationally rotating in Spikes and Fletcher, Stamer, Posey and Ezekiel, with Crowell being on the field virtually all of the time at different spots, adding Ellison to the rotation as soon as they can until he can play the majority of the snaps with Crowell as well. In this case, the Bills would take a lot of lumps, but, by the end of the season, they would have two of next year's three starting LBs in place in Crowell and Ellison and would know what they have in Stamer and Ezekiel--and would know how high in the draft they would have to take a LB in next year's draft. (In past posts, when I've talked about the Bills taking their lumps this season, this is the kind of thing that I am refering to--it could get pretty ugly if things don't work out and a lot of young guys and inexperienced players end up playing a lot of snaps, but that should make them better and also let the coaches know what the team needs to go out and get.)

Now, I know that the idea of Stamer, Ezekiel and Ellison being possible starters for the Bills on defense--just the idea--would have a lot of Bills fans pulling their hair out and cursing Marv and DJ to high heaven. But, not so fast! Who ever heard of David Thornton, Lance Briggs, Hunter Hillenmeyer, Shelton Quarles or Gary Brackett--or London Fletcher for that matter--when they were coming out of college and into the NFL? Yet all of them, some of whom were undrafted free agents, became very solid LBs and even stars playing in this defense. Because this defense is predicated on something different than the other defensive systems around the league and in most colleges, guys that no one has ever heard of, who would be nothing more than mediocre, undersized backups and special teamers in other systems, can seemingly come out of nowhere to be very good players in this defense. I don't know much about Ellison and Ezekiel, but I do know that both were very productive LBs playing in this system in college--and apparently Stamer was as well. So, who knows? Maybe one or more of them has the ability to be very productive in this system on the NFL level as well. We won't know until we see them play it. But, that goes for the whole defense.

The Bills defense is a question mark at this point because it is something completely new and different for the team. While we can talk about the scheme and how it has been run in Tampa, Indy and Chicago, it is virtually impossible to know how it will work for the Bills because, until we see the players that the Bills have on their roster playing in the system, it is very difficult to project how well someof them will fit into the system and how well they will play the system as a unit. That is and will continue to be an unknown until we actually get a chance to see them playing in it, full out--and that may not happen until the season begins. And, I can understand how that can make a lot of people feel uneasy. But, fretting about it isn't going to change that, either.

BTW: I find it very interesting--and curious--that so many of the players that T.Donahoe drafted or acquired on defense were players who had played and been successful in Cover 2 defenses in college: Anderson, Kelsay, Clements, Stamer and Ezekiel are names that come to me right off the top of my head, but there are some others as well (I think Schobel, Haggan and Crowell) in addition to Fletcher. That might not sound like a lot, in terms of numbers, but that means that all of those players had to learn a new defensive system when they came to the Bills than they were used to and productive in--no wonder some of them been slow to develop!