End the QB Controversy

[HHURRICANE]

I don't understand the lack of intelligence regarding the QB situation. Holcomb is a career backup for a reason. It's not like other teams haven't seen him play in the NFL for the last 10 years. He is not a starting QB.

Why would you start Holcomb? Even if he was marginally successful we are not a playoff team. The following year, he will be older, and he will still be average at best.

JP Losman has had 8 games to prove his worthiness. 8 games! We traded a pick to draft him in the 1st round. Every draft board had him ranked as the 4th QB in the draft and that's where we took him. This guy doesn't suck. Had he waited a year he may have been the #1 QB coming out.

Everyone's goal is simple. To win a SB!! I'm not saying Losman is or isn't the answer but let's find out!! I know Holcomb is not!!

[gil]

I think *for what we have as far as our QB's* that Marv & Co. are doing the right thing in not naming a favorite at this point. Maybe they are leaning towards JP as it would seem to offer the most upside, but they are dead set against handing JP anything.

Maybe they want to put that fear into him that he didn't have last year - as crappy as he played, the kid is obviously a competitor and a hard worker and having this "open competition" may really light a fire under his butt.

At least that's what I'm hoping - now excuse me, I have to poor a tall glass of Marv-flavored vodka kool-aid. :handball:

[HHURRICANE]

I am okay with the open competition if it is purely designed to not hand the job to Losman. But if the job gets handed to Holcomb i am going to be super peed off!!

[gil]

I think, as far as divining the intentions of our "braintrust", maybe we could look to the signing of Nall for some hints. They signed a QB with an above average to "big" arm - Marv knows what it takes for a QB to be successful playing in WNY and Jauron the same with similar weather in Chicago - here's hoping they realize Holcomb just doesn't have the physical tools we need - especially down the stretch.

[MikeInRoch]

Everyone's goal is simple. To win a SB!!

Amazingly, this is not true. There are MANY people (including several I bet we could find on this board) who would rather win more games NEXT year than try to build a team to make a serious SB run.

[Historian]

Amazingly, this is not true. There are MANY people (including several I bet we could find on this board) who would rather win more games NEXT year than try to build a team to make a serious SB run.

You have to keep it in the context of last years team Mike.

If we were say...10-6 last year, then yea, you load up for bear, and try to make a run. Unfortunately, this team has way too many holes to fill, and one offseason isn't going to cure all their ills.

Levy's good, but he's no miracle worker. There's no way we contend this year.

This is what I think happens this year:

1. QB issue gets settled.
2. Win 7 or 8 games.
3. Defense gets re-solidified.
4. O line gels.

A close friend of mine was takling to Takeo a couple weeks ago. He said he's in the best shape of his life, that the draft was superb, and that the D will be a force this year. He said the biggest question mark is the O Line. He said if they come together, the team could be very strong. If not...

[Jan Reimers]

I don't understand the lack of intelligence regarding the QB situation. Holcomb is a career backup for a reason. It's not like other teams haven't seen him play in the NFL for the last 10 years. He is not a starting QB.

Why would you start Holcomb? Even if he was marginally successful we are not a playoff team. The following year, he will be older, and he will still be average at best.

JP Losman has had 8 games to prove his worthiness. 8 games! We traded a pick to draft him in the 1st round. Every draft board had him ranked as the 4th QB in the draft and that's where we took him. This guy doesn't suck. Had he waited a year he may have been the #1 QB coming out.

Everyone's goal is simple. To win a SB!! I'm not saying Losman is or isn't the answer but let's find out!! I know Holcomb is not!!
I totally agree, HH. Almost every great QB has been given time - sometimes 2 or 3 seasons - to develop. I don't understand why so many people are down on Losman after only 8 starts, and want to start a mediocre journeyman like Holcomb.

[John Doe]

The QB controversy will end when a clear cut winner takes the job. Jauron is not going to "hand" it to Losman or Holcomb.

[BillsFever21]

I totally agree, HH. Almost every great QB has been given time - sometimes 2 or 3 seasons - to develop. I don't understand why so many people are down on Losman after only 8 starts, and want to start a mediocre journeyman like Holcomb.

There are too many fickle Bills fans who aren't patient enough to wait for a young QB to be groomed. It doesn't matter how bad our roster is. They would rather let a 10 year vet who is a proven loser go out and throw 2 more TD passes and call him successful and still miss the playoffs then wait for a QB to be groomed.

I remember reading some articles when we drafted Losman that there were many Bills fans who were too fickle to wait for a young QB to be groomed. That article was dead on. We are seeing it now.

[Jan Reimers]

The QB controversy will end when a clear cut winner takes the job. Jauron is not going to "hand" it to Losman or Holcomb.
If Holcomb is the "clear cut winner" it will only be because of his experience and/or JP's inconsistency. But we have no future with Holcomb. When will people understand what is so obvious?

We need to let JP play in order to know whether he will be the man, or whether we need to acquire another QB. Holcomb is not the answer, either short or long term.

[don137]

I think the team is saying the QB position is wide open however IMO it is really a 2 person competition with Holcomb being the odd man out unless Nall and JP really stink up the place. If they stink up the place Holcomb would take the position by default. They just don't want to say that publically.

[John Doe]

If Holcomb is the "clear cut winner" it will only be because of his experience and/or JP's inconsistency. But we have no future with Holcomb. When will people understand what is so obvious?

We need to let JP play in order to know whether he will be the man, or whether we need to acquire another QB. Holcomb is not the answer, either short or long term.

If Holcomb wins the job then so be it. It means that he gives us the best chance to win. It does not mean that Losman cannot claim it in the future. Kitna beat out Palmer for the Bengals, then Palmer took the job away from him.

The most important thing for the team is to establish a culture of winning, not to see if Losman is "the man." The only way to establish that mind set is to start the players who have earned it.

[TacklingDummy]

Why would you start Holcomb? Even if he was marginally successful we are not a playoff team. The following year, he will be older, and he will still be average at best.



They start Holcomb because he won the QB competition in camp. Every team in the NFL week 1 will have the same record 0-0. To say the Bills are going nowhere next year when the season hasn't already started is asinine. Teams shouldn't start tanking the season or play for the future in WEEK 1.


Realistically, without JP Blinders on, this season and last season should start like this..... Holcomb named starter, if the Bills play good and are winning games then Holcomb remains starter, but by week 5 or 6 it becomes obvious that the Bills are not going to be making the playoffs then they switch QBs and put JP or Nall in.

[HHURRICANE]

I think the team is saying the QB position is wide open however IMO it is really a 2 person competition with Holcomb being the odd man out unless Nall and JP really stink up the place. If they stink up the place Holcomb would take the position by default. They just don't want to say that publically.

I hope your right. I can't stomach the idea of wasting valuable playing time on Holcomb. I'd rather lose with Losman behind center and figure out if we have a future with this kid or not. Drew Brees is a perfect exmple of why you let young QB's play.

[John Doe]

I hope your right. I can't stomach the idea of wasting valuable playing time on Holcomb. I'd rather lose with Losman behind center and figure out if we have a future with this kid or not. Drew Brees is a perfect exmple of why you let young QB's play.

I would rather start winning as soon as possible. If you set your team up as a training ground for QBs then you ****** the development of the rest of your offensive personnel.

Start winning and develop the offense as a whole. Then, when your young QB is ready to take the reins, he steps into a situation where he has the best chance to succeed.

It is possible that Losman is ready this year.

[TacklingDummy]

I'd rather lose with Losman behind center and figure out if we have a future with this kid or not. .

So you rather lose opening day, seeing what you got for the future, instead of playing for the year your in, when every team is tied 0-0, instead of letting the QB who was best in camp play? (If Holcomb is best in camp and named starter)

[Yasgur's Farm]

Realistically, without JP Blinders on, this season and last season should start like this..... Holcomb named starter, if the Bills play good and are winning games then Holcomb remains starter, but by week 5 or 6 it becomes obvious that the Bills are not going to be making the playoffs then they switch QBs and put JP or Nall in.

Those like you (with tons of negg's) would thrive on Holcomb starting. Not only would that continue a losing tradition for this season, it would also ****** progress in breaking that losing legacy in the near future.

Just like a pig wallows in it's own crap, you'll be in pig heaven wallowing in your own negativity.

[HHURRICANE]

I would rather start winning as soon as possible. If you set your team up as a training ground for QBs then you ****** the development of the rest of your offensive personnel.

Start winning and develop the offense as a whole. Then, when your young QB is ready to take the reins, he steps into a situation where he has the best chance to succeed.

It is possible that Losman is ready this year.

I don't completely agree. Experience is experience. Yes, everyone would like to be put in a winning situation but that's rarely an option. The kid will improve by playing. PERIOD.

[John Doe]

I don't completely agree. Experience is experience. Yes, everyone would like to be put in a winning situation but that's rarely an option. The kid will improve by playing. PERIOD.

I never said that Losman would not improve with playing time.

I said that the development of the team is more important. The goal of the team is to win, not to see if Losman is the man.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Has anybody noticed that KH had a 44.3 passer rating through his 1st 5 years in the league?

[TacklingDummy]

I said that the development of the team is more important. The goal of the team is to win, not to see if Losman is the man.

And in Week 1 of the NFL, the goal of the team should be to win now and play for this season. There will be plenty of time to develop a QB later in the season if the Bills due indeed stink.

[TacklingDummy]

Has anybody noticed that KH had a 44.3 passer rating through his 1st 5 years in the league?

Has any noticed that JP Losman was the 33rd ranked QB out of 34 last year?

[The_Philster]

I never said that Losman would not improve with playing time.

I said that the development of the team is more important. The goal of the team is to win, not to see if Losman is the man.
so you'd rather win a couple more games now with Holcomb and give up on the future? Is that what you're saying? Because no QB improves by holding a clipboard. What happens when Holcomb retires in a few years and we still haven't won it? Do we bring in another mediocre veteran QB to guide us to more mediocre seasons since we're afraid of seeing what Losman can do if given an adequate opportunity?

[John Doe]

so you'd rather win a couple more games now with Holcomb and give up on the future? Is that what you're saying? Because no QB improves by holding a clipboard. What happens when Holcomb retires in a few years and we still haven't won it? Do we bring in another mediocre veteran QB to guide us to more mediocre seasons since we're afraid of seeing what Losman can do if given an adequate opportunity?

If you were to carefully read my posts, you would see that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that competition is the best thing for the QB spot. Losman may actually win the position battle this year as I have previously stated. If he does not, then perhaps he can win the job during the season or next year. He is being given an "adequate opportunity" right now.

I have never advocated handing the QB job to Holcomb, but if he wins the competition, then he should start. It is the best thing for the team. If Losman is a good QB then he will win the job, sooner rather than later.

I don’t believe in giving up on the season before it starts.

[TacklingDummy]

so you'd rather win a couple more games now with Holcomb and give up on the future? Is that what you're saying? Because no QB improves by holding a clipboard.


So you already gave up on next year when the season hasn't even started and already want to play for the future? Is that what your saying?

Who's to say the Bills can win only a couple more games with Holcomb as starter? Miss Cleo.

And actually, QBs CAN improve by holding a clipboard. Check JP Losmans 1st 4 games compared to his last 5 games, for a example.

[Historian]

So you already gave up on next year when the season hasn't even started and already want to play for the future? Is that what your saying?

.

I think there's just too many holes.

And if Mularkey and the rest of those idiots had stuck with Losman last year, we would know right now if QB was or wasn't one of them.

[John Doe]

I think there's just too many holes.


I don't see any.

[YardRat]

so you'd rather win a couple more games now with Holcomb and give up on the future? Is that what you're saying? Because no QB improves by holding a clipboard. What happens when Holcomb retires in a few years and we still haven't won it? Do we bring in another mediocre veteran QB to guide us to more mediocre seasons since we're afraid of seeing what Losman can do if given an adequate opportunity?

Why is it always interpreted that if you don't have your nose up JP's ass and already penciled him in as the starter that you've given up on the future?

If JP can't outperform a mediocre ten-year vet in practice and pre-season, then he doesn't deserve the starting job. The future is now in professional sports, and you put the players on the field that give the team the best chance to win.

If you properly manage the present, the future will take care of itself.

[The_Philster]

If you were to carefully read my posts, you would see that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that competition is the best thing for the QB spot. Losman may actually win the position battle this year as I have previously stated. If he does not, then perhaps he can win the job during the season or next year. He is being given an "adequate opportunity" right now.

I have never advocated handing the QB job to Holcomb, but if he wins the competition, then he should start. It is the best thing for the team. If Losman is a good QB then he will win the job, sooner rather than later.

I don’t believe in giving up on the season before it starts.
Well, you mentioned development of the team in your last post..how do you develop it around a mediocre QB whose best years are behind him?
You yourself admitted that JP could improve with playing time. How would he get that holding a clipboard.
For the record, I think JP can win the starter's job away from Holcomb...but I'm just saying...if he can't, do you dump him and start over?

[YardRat]

Well, you mentioned development of the team in your last post..how do you develop it around a mediocre QB whose best years are behind him?
You yourself admitted that JP could improve with playing time. How would he get that holding a clipboard.
For the record, I think JP can win the starter's job away from Holcomb...but I'm just saying...if he can't, do you dump him and start over?

If he can't win the starting job over Holcomb this year...yeah...you dump him and find somebody who can. Next off-season.

[The_Philster]

If he can't win the starting job over Holcomb this year...yeah...you dump him and find somebody who can. Next off-season.
maybe you don't get someone like that next offseason..maybe you don't get someone who's really good for many years. Some people have it in their heads that Holcomb will help us win more (even though he pulled one of the most boneheaded mistakes last year which cost us a game) so obviously we wouldn't be getting Brady Quinn. Do we find another retread veteran to hopefully take over because we don't seem to have any patience with developing a QB?

[YardRat]

Since when does "patience with developing a QB" equate to "throwing him into the starting line-up ASAP and see how he plays"?

It seems to me that those who are arguing to insert JP into the starting line-up are too impatient to let him develop on the sidelines for a couple of years while somebody else holds down the starting job because he's the better player.

[The_Philster]

Well for one, I'm on record many times as saying I would've loved to bring him along slowly...a few games first season..a few more his second
secondly, how do you develop on the sidelines? practice action is nothing like game action. Even if, for argument's sake, you can develop adequately on the sidelines, how many years does that take? It would definitely take a hell of a lot longer than it would in game action. That's a lot of cap money to use on a clipboard holder for so long. When you draft a QB or anyone in the first round, he better be contributing fast.

[billsburgh]

If he can't win the starting job over Holcomb this year...yeah...you dump him and find somebody who can. Next off-season.
unless you sign a top qb in free agency, which rarely happens, the team will be set back again because another rookie or young vet like Nall wont beat out someone with experience like Holcomb. It would be dumb to give up on JP after only 2 seasons where he really hasnt played that much assuming he's not the starter this season. most qb's need 3 or 4 years before they really start to play well.

[YardRat]

Well for one, I'm on record many times as saying I would've loved to bring him along slowly...a few games first season..a few more his second

Yes, you are. The 'McNair model', as you often refer to it.



secondly, how do you develop on the sidelines? practice action is nothing like game action.


You develop your skills in practice, under game-like situatiuons. If you can complete a 7-yard out on Wednesday, you should be able to do the same on Sunday. If you can't, you can't and playing under live conditions isn't going to help you any.


Even if, for argument's sake, you can develop adequately on the sidelines, how many years does that take? It would definitely take a hell of a lot longer than it would in game action. That's a lot of cap money to use on a clipboard holder for so long. When you draft a QB or anyone in the first round, he better be contributing fast.

Patience :D. Individuals develop at different rates. If you're willing to use a #1 draft pick and big money on a guy, you better be willing to take the steps necessary to allow him to develop at his own rate, up to a certain point.

[billsburgh]

Patience :D. Individuals develop at different rates. If you're willing to use a #1 draft pick and big money on a guy, you better be willing to take the steps necessary to allow him to develop at his own rate, up to a certain point.
that's the key, many here arent willing to show patience and let him develop. he sucked last year so he is always going to suck. right?

[John Doe]

Well, you mentioned development of the team in your last post..how do you develop it around a mediocre QB whose best years are behind him?
You yourself admitted that JP could improve with playing time. How would he get that holding a clipboard.
For the record, I think JP can win the starter's job away from Holcomb...but I'm just saying...if he can't, do you dump him and start over?

The QB who wins the starting job by outperforming the others gives the team the best opportunity to improve and succeed. If that QB is mediocre it has to mean that the other QBs are less than mediocre.

When the best available QB is running the team, the receivers (some of them still developing) get better opportunities and more chances to catch the ball and run with it. Their skills and experience improve by doing so. It also means that the running backs have more opportunities to play to their potential. The offensive line benefits as well. Plays are run properly more often, better decisions are made, and there are fewer demoralizing sacks and setbacks because of it. Success feeds on itself.

The decision of when to dump a developing QB has to come down to whether he shows constant improvement on the practice field. If he does not perform there, then he will not produce in games. By improving, he will eventually win the starting job. If he does not, then it is time to move on.

I think that Losman is improving and will eventually win the job. But right now, may the best QB start. It’s the best thing for the team.

[Mr. Cynical]

The most important thing for the team is to establish a culture of winning, not to see if Losman is "the man."

I agree - but you don't establish a culture of winning by not winning. KH is not a proven winner, nor has he been for the last 11 years as a career backup.

Point is, if KH wins the job, then

a) JP is a bust because he couldn't beat out KH in camp
b) Marv/Dick are idiots for not getting in a viable replacement before the season started
c) the team will finish sub 500 again and with nothing to gain from this year because they will have to get another QB next year and start all over again.

[John Doe]

I agree - but you don't establish a culture of winning by not winning. KH is not a proven winner, nor has he been for the last 11 years as a career backup.

Just because Holcomb has been a backup does not mean that he cannot play a role as a winning starter.

The point about a culture of winning is that you establish a policy of trying to win by playing those that give the best chance. If Holcomb gets the starting job and the team does not win this year, it does not mean that a culture of winning has not been established. It could mean that a solid foundation of that mindset has been set for future success. It does not even mean that the failure to win is directly attributable to Holcomb.




Point is, if KH wins the job, then

a) JP is a bust because he couldn't beat out KH in camp

Not necessarily so. If Losman keeps improving he has a chance to be quite good, regardless if he unseats Holcomb this season.



b) Marv/Dick are idiots for not getting in a viable replacement before the season started.

This presupposes that they had the ability to see how Losman would perform in training camp. No one can see the future.


c) the team will finish sub 500 again and with nothing to gain from this year because they will have to get another QB next year and start all over again.

Again, if Losman keeps improving he has a chance to be quite good, regardless if he unseats Holcomb this season.

[YardRat]

that's the key, many here arent willing to show patience and let him develop.

Right. IMO, it's the ones who want to hand him the starting job and see if he has 'it' despite what affect it may have on the entire team that have no patience. He wasn't ready last year, and he proved it on the field. Maybe he'll be better this year, maybe he won't.



he sucked last year


Right again. Obviously. Painfully, even.



so he is always going to suck. right?


Not necessarily, but throwing him into the fire once again could do more to damage his progress, as opposed to letting him develop during practices and assume the role when he's ready to take it...when he actually is the best QB on the team instead of the one with the most 'potential'.

[1959BillsFan]

I really think that Marv interviewed some of the "veterans" from last year and asked, "What were the problems last year??? You guys were supposed to produce and didn't. What was the problem???"

From one of the main defensive leaders, Fletcher, the reply was that Losman was given the job, but Holcomb gave the Bills the best opportunity to win. Because of this, we had locker room problems and lost faith in the management and coaches.

Marv was NOT going to put Jauron in the position to fail and gave him the best opportunity to win the players confidence: open QB competation.

It is a very logical approach, BUT it still seems like these "veterans" still do not have the confidence in this organization. It seems like they are just looking for any excuse to place blame. These "veterans" are doing everythong to deflect blame and not looking at the source, their own "hearts".

I say this because of their lack of committment in working with this new coaching staff i.e. Fletcher, vincent, mcgahee, anderson (before he got cut).

It will take time to transform the team from "me" players, to having that committment to playing like a T-E-A-M is supposed to play like.

[X-Era]

I don't understand the lack of intelligence regarding the QB situation. Holcomb is a career backup for a reason. It's not like other teams haven't seen him play in the NFL for the last 10 years. He is not a starting QB.

Why would you start Holcomb? Even if he was marginally successful we are not a playoff team. The following year, he will be older, and he will still be average at best.

JP Losman has had 8 games to prove his worthiness. 8 games! We traded a pick to draft him in the 1st round. Every draft board had him ranked as the 4th QB in the draft and that's where we took him. This guy doesn't suck. Had he waited a year he may have been the #1 QB coming out.

Everyone's goal is simple. To win a SB!! I'm not saying Losman is or isn't the answer but let's find out!! I know Holcomb is not!!

ABSO-FRIKKIN-LUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THANK GOD for fellow intelligent Bills fans!

[Jan Reimers]

I really think that Marv interviewed some of the "veterans" from last year and asked, "What were the problems last year??? You guys were supposed to produce and didn't. What was the problem???"

From one of the main defensive leaders, Fletcher, the reply was that Losman was given the job, but Holcomb gave the Bills the best opportunity to win. Because of this, we had locker room problems and lost faith in the management and coaches.

Marv was NOT going to put Jauron in the position to fail and gave him the best opportunity to win the players confidence: open QB competation.

It is a very logical approach, BUT it still seems like these "veterans" still do not have the confidence in this organization. It seems like they are just looking for any excuse to place blame. These "veterans" are doing everythong to deflect blame and not looking at the source, their own "hearts".

I say this because of their lack of committment in working with this new coaching staff i.e. Fletcher, vincent, mcgahee, anderson (before he got cut).

It will take time to transform the team from "me" players, to having that committment to playing like a T-E-A-M is supposed to play like.
I hope, if this really happened, that Levy and Jauron put absolutely no stock in what Fletcher or the other "veteran leaders" said. Levy and Jauron should run the team, while Fletcher and the other missing veterans should show up, shut up, and play their guts out.

[Mr. Cynical]

Just because Holcomb has been a backup does not mean that he cannot play a role as a winning starter.

When you have been a "career backup" for 11 years, then yes, it does mean he cannot play a role as a winning starter.


If Holcomb gets the starting job and the team does not win this year, it does not mean that a culture of winning has not been established. It could mean that a solid foundation of that mindset has been set for future success.

I'm sorry but that statement made absolutely no sense.


Not necessarily so. If Losman keeps improving he has a chance to be quite good, regardless if he unseats Holcomb this season.

At year 3 he will not improve by holding a clipboard.


This presupposes that they had the ability to see how Losman would perform in training camp. No one can see the future.

This presupposes that they have the ability to judge talent effectively and to be prepared in the event they made a mistake. If JP busts, they have failed on both counts.


Again, if Losman keeps improving he has a chance to be quite good, regardless if he unseats Holcomb this season.

Again, if JP doesn't play, he won't improve. If he doesn't unseat KH in camp, then he doesn't deserve to start. BUT, if that is the case, that doesn't mean KH deserves to start either. Again, two different forms of fecal matter won't help establish a "winning culture".

[John Doe]

When you have been a "career backup" for 11 years, then yes, it does mean he cannot play a role as a winning starter.


The expressed goal of the Bills’ management was to make the team that surrounds the QB better this year. Holcomb played well in some games that the Bills won last year. If the team improves, it puts less emphasis on the QB and creates possibilities for his success.




I'm sorry but that statement made absolutely no sense.


It makes sense to me. A culture of winning starts with a winning attitude, not with actual victories.



At year 3 he will not improve by holding a clipboard.


A backup QB does more than “hold a clipboard.” He gets reps in practice and learns the offense better. Carson Palmer certainly seemed to learn the game from the sidelines.



This presupposes that they have the ability to judge talent effectively and to be prepared in the event they made a mistake. If JP busts, they have failed on both counts.

I think that there are a lot of people in the NFL that would be willing to give JP a chance to win the starting job. This is only the first year for the new administration. If all of the QBs on the team turn out to be busts, then it’s time to find new ones, but I for one won’t blame them for giving JP a chance to earn his spurs. I think that he has a lot of talent.



Again, if JP doesn't play, he won't improve. If he doesn't unseat KH in camp, then he doesn't deserve to start. BUT, if that is the case, that doesn't mean KH deserves to start either. Again, two different forms of fecal matter won't help establish a "winning culture".

If KH wins the job in training camp it absolutely means that he should start. That is the basis of a winning competitive attitude.

[Mr. Cynical]

The expressed goal of the Bills’ management was to make the team that surrounds the QB better this year.

That is the expressed goal of every front office in the league year in and year out, so that's not really a very meaningful point.



It makes sense to me. A culture of winning starts with a winning attitude, not with actual victories.

Well ok, I guess that explains your other comments. If you think a team can have a winning attitude without actually winning games, there's not much more I can say at this point.


A backup QB does more than “hold a clipboard.” He gets reps in practice and learns the offense better. Carson Palmer certainly seemed to learn the game from the sidelines.

'03: Palmer was drafted.
'04: Palmer played in 14 games and threw for 2,897 yds. Kitna played in 4 games and threw for 623. Palmer got hurt in Nov/Dec and Kitna took over.
'05: Palmer played the whole season and made the probowl.

I don't see the clipboard factor playing a big role here.


If all of the QBs on the team turn out to be busts, then it’s time to find new ones, but I for one won’t blame them for giving JP a chance to earn his spurs. I think that he has a lot of talent.

I don't blame them for trying to see if JP has what it takes - I've been saying that the whole time. But to suggest that KH isn't a "bust", so to speak, is not correct. Technically he is a bust since he cannot be, nor has ever been, a true starter in this league.


If KH wins the job in training camp it absolutely means that he should start. That is the basis of a winning competitive attitude.

No, the basis of a winning attitude is winning. Just because KH beats out JP does not mean the team will have a winning attitude. It means a mediocre 11 year backup beat out a 1st round bust, which means the team had nothing better to choose from. Dog poop, cow poop. Still poop. Still losing.

I guess this is yet another point we'll have to agree to disagree on.