What was JP’s worst game?

[Patrick76777]

Week 2 @ TB 12 of 28 for 113 yards. Wow, 42.8 Comp. Percentage.
Week 3 ATL 10-23 for 75 yards and a pick. He did raise his comp. Percentage up to 43.4
Week 4 @ NO 7-15 for 75 yards and a pick. I honestly feel like I could have done better.

Week 13 NE 10-27 for 181 yards 1 TD and 3 picks. (Thank god for Reed’s 51 yard touchdown in garbage time in this one. 9-27 for 130 and 3 picks would have been awful.


Those Week 3 and 4 stats are hideous. And to think that we were in both of those games. But the 3 picks against NE might take the cake.

[Bill Cody]

Yo Pat let it go. This thread is like forcing the jury to look at those gory pictures of the murder victim.

[OpIv37]

Week 2 @ TB 12 of 28 for 113 yards. Wow, 42.8 Comp. Percentage.
Week 3 ATL 10-23 for 75 yards and a pick. He did raise his comp. Percentage up to 43.4
Week 4 @ NO 7-15 for 75 yards and a pick. I honestly feel like I could have done better.

Week 13 NE 10-27 for 181 yards 1 TD and 3 picks. (Thank god for Reed’s 51 yard touchdown in garbage time in this one. 9-27 for 130 and 3 picks would have been awful.


Those Week 3 and 4 stats are hideous. And to think that we were in both of those games. But the 3 picks against NE might take the cake.

you mean, 3 of his first four starts in the NFL weren't good? You mean he didn't come right out and look like Steve Young the very second he stepped into the league?

Yeah, you're right Pat. This guy sucks :rolleyes:

[Ebenezer]

Week 2 @ TB 12 of 28 for 113 yards. Wow, 42.8 Comp. Percentage.
Week 3 ATL 10-23 for 75 yards and a pick. He did raise his comp. Percentage up to 43.4
Week 4 @ NO 7-15 for 75 yards and a pick. I honestly feel like I could have done better.

Week 13 NE 10-27 for 181 yards 1 TD and 3 picks. (Thank god for Reed’s 51 yard touchdown in garbage time in this one. 9-27 for 130 and 3 picks would have been awful.


Those Week 3 and 4 stats are hideous. And to think that we were in both of those games. But the 3 picks against NE might take the cake.
I'll ask the question from the parallel universe...did JP, other than KC, have a good game?

[Patrick76777]

you mean, 3 of his first four starts in the NFL weren't good? You mean he didn't come right out and look like Steve Young the very second he stepped into the league?

Yeah, you're right Pat. This guy sucks :rolleyes:


I was just looking for the worst. Trust me the other games were also very bad. Just not as bad as these 4.

[Patrick76777]

I'll ask the question from the parallel universe...did JP, other than KC, have a good game?


He had 3 TD's (one terribly underthrown) against Miami. Problem is that he completed 50% of his passes. If he makes just one more completion in that game to run 25 seconds off the clock, we win that game.

5 of 13 for 50 yards in the second half.

And before you call me Wys, remember that football is a 60 minute game.

[OpIv37]

look, we all know that JP had a rough first year. But he also had do deal with terrible coaches (all of whom have been fired), a weak OL, an underperforming RB, a disgruntled RB and a defense that couldn't stop anyone. JP hasn't had a real shot in the NFL.

We all know what Holcomb has. He's not gonna lose too many games for you, but he's not going to win too many on his own either. JP is clearly more athletic and has a lot more potential.

Part of the problem, Patrick, is that you haven't accepted the fact that this team isn't going anywhere anyway. If this team had even an outside shot at the playoffs that grooming a QB would ruin, you might have a point. But this team will be lucky to win 6 games. It's very young, new systems on both sides of the ball, question marks at key positions, etc. Personally I'd rather win 4 games with JP and find out if he's our guy for the future or not than win 6 or 7 with Holcomb just to say we won 6 or 7.

[Patrick76777]

look, we all know that JP had a rough first year. But he also had do deal with terrible coaches (all of whom have been fired), a weak OL, an underperforming RB, a disgruntled RB and a defense that couldn't stop anyone. JP hasn't had a real shot in the NFL.

We all know what Holcomb has. He's not gonna lose too many games for you, but he's not going to win too many on his own either. JP is clearly more athletic and has a lot more potential.

Part of the problem, Patrick, is that you haven't accepted the fact that this team isn't going anywhere anyway. If this team had even an outside shot at the playoffs that grooming a QB would ruin, you might have a point. But this team will be lucky to win 6 games. It's very young, new systems on both sides of the ball, question marks at key positions, etc. Personally I'd rather win 4 games with JP and find out if he's our guy for the future or not than win 6 or 7 with Holcomb just to say we won 6 or 7.


A. Holcomb had to deal with the same coaches. So if we upgraded, it should help his play also.

B. You never know. Sure we don't look good, but the Jets should be terrible, Miami is way overrated and NE lost a ton of players for the second year in a row. Plus, if Spikes comes back and Willis can put up a big year in front of that O-line we're rebuilding, you never know.

[RockStar36]

I'm so sick of these threads. Let it go until the season starts, or at least camp starts. Comparing JP's first few starts of his career vs. Holcomb in his 10th season. Let it go!

[Mr. Pink]

My main problem with JP is his absolute putrid completion percentage. Which leads me to believe he isn't the qb of the future. Yes, I might be wrong...however in todays NFL if you can't complete about 60% of your passes you're usually labelled as not a good QB.

And JP didn't even complete HALF of his passes, then had his worst day as a pro in his last start of the year.

Those are my issues with just annointing him the starter.

[Michael82]

I'm so sick of these threads. Let it go until the season starts, or at least camp starts. Comparing JP's first few starts of his career vs. Holcomb in his 10th season. Let it go!
EXCELLENT post! :bf1:

[Ickybaluky]

So let me get this straight...

The Bills have dicked around without long-term solutions at the QB position since Jim Kelly retired, and haven't made the playoffs in years in large part because of that, and you are ready to turn the keys to the farm over to a 33-year old journeyman QB with a career record of 8-13 (.381) as a starting QB?

Don't you think the Bills should find their answers to their QB for the long-term to finally stabalize a position that has been haunting them for years? They need to find out if J.P. is the guy, or they need to find another QB to build around.

Holcomb isn't that guy. He has been in the league for years and his reputation is pretty well known. He is a guy who will be prepared and do a good job as a backup if he is needed in a game, but the more he plays the more interceptions he will throw. He will put up some decent numbers, but he will throw interceptions. Doesn't make him a bad player, just means he isn't a guy you will build around. There is a reason he has lost over 60% of his starts. The guy didn't even win in NFL Europe for crying out loud.

That said, as a Pats fan I love ya' Patrick.

[OpIv37]

My main problem with JP is his absolute putrid completion percentage. Which leads me to believe he isn't the qb of the future. Yes, I might be wrong...however in todays NFL if you can't complete about 60% of your passes you're usually labelled as not a good QB.

And JP didn't even complete HALF of his passes, then had his worst day as a pro in his last start of the year.

Those are my issues with just annointing him the starter.

the thing is you admitted that you MIGHT be wrong. Does anyone really think Holcomb is the QB of the future? There is absolutely 0 chance of that, but there's still some hope for JP.

[The_Philster]

So let me get this straight...

The Bills have dicked around without long-term solutions at the QB position since Jim Kelly retired, and haven't made the playoffs in years in large part because of that, and you are ready to turn the keys to the farm over to a 33-year old journeyman QB with a career record of 8-13 (.381) as a starting QB?

Don't you think the Bills should find their answers to their QB for the long-term to finally stabalize a position that has been haunting them for years? They need to find out if J.P. is the guy, or they need to find another QB to build around.

Holcomb isn't that guy. He has been in the league for years and his reputation is pretty well known. He is a guy who will be prepared and do a good job as a backup if he is needed in a game, but the more he plays the more interceptions he will throw. He will put up some decent numbers, but he will throw interceptions. Doesn't make him a bad player, just means he isn't a guy you will build around. There is a reason he has lost over 60% of his starts. The guy didn't even win in NFL Europe for crying out loud.

That said, as a Pats fan I love ya' Patrick.
Pretty bad that the Pats fan understands the Bills' QBs better than a guy sitting in the corner of the endzone every home game :shakeno:

[OpIv37]

A. Holcomb had to deal with the same coaches. So if we upgraded, it should help his play also.

B. You never know. Sure we don't look good, but the Jets should be terrible, Miami is way overrated and NE lost a ton of players for the second year in a row. Plus, if Spikes comes back and Willis can put up a big year in front of that O-line we're rebuilding, you never know.

That's a lot of IF's-
-IF McGahee has a big year
-IF Spikes comes back from his injury
-IF the Dolphins are overrated
-IF the Patriots suffer from lost players (which has never happened before...)

You're grasping at straws. Sure, it's possible, but only because nothing is impossible. If you buy a lotto ticket you might win, but don't start spending those millions just yet....

[billsburgh]

I was just looking for the worst. Trust me the other games were also very bad. Just not as bad as these 4.
so what is your point? that was last year. are you going to base his future on his first 8 starts? do you think that he will never improve?

[Night Train]

Tampa was bad but the Saints game was worse.

That being said, once he came off the bench and won the KC game, he looked like a different player. From that point on, he should have taken every snap for the rest of the year.

Mularkey caved to either a few vets or his own fears of job security.

Let Holcomb go to Home Depot in August to custom desigh his bench he'll be stuck on. Might as well get comfy.

This is Losmans year to sink or swim.

[Tatonka]

So let me get this straight...

The Bills have dicked around without long-term solutions at the QB position since Jim Kelly retired, and haven't made the playoffs in years in large part because of that, and you are ready to turn the keys to the farm over to a 33-year old journeyman QB with a career record of 8-13 (.381) as a starting QB?

Don't you think the Bills should find their answers to their QB for the long-term to finally stabalize a position that has been haunting them for years? They need to find out if J.P. is the guy, or they need to find another QB to build around.

Holcomb isn't that guy. He has been in the league for years and his reputation is pretty well known. He is a guy who will be prepared and do a good job as a backup if he is needed in a game, but the more he plays the more interceptions he will throw. He will put up some decent numbers, but he will throw interceptions. Doesn't make him a bad player, just means he isn't a guy you will build around. There is a reason he has lost over 60% of his starts. The guy didn't even win in NFL Europe for crying out loud.

That said, as a Pats fan I love ya' Patrick.

pat has a man crush on KH, stop trying to reason with a man in love. Pat is going to drop a bomb in his sponge bob boxers when holcombe doesnt win the job.

either that, or he will be totally content going 3-13 w/ holcombe at qb and the bills still not knowing if jp could be a viable starter with playing experience.

[Mr. Pink]

the thing is you admitted that you MIGHT be wrong. Does anyone really think Holcomb is the QB of the future? There is absolutely 0 chance of that, but there's still some hope for JP.


I cannot predict the future....if I could, I sure as hell wouldn't be posting here :rofl:

Thing is anything can happen NO matter how unlikely. I don't think any QB on this roster now has a better chance than the other of being the QB of the future. Honestly Kliff Kingsbury has just as much chance and hope as JP.

There really is nothing to base that JP could possibly be the QB of the future on this team, literally nothing. He hasn't shown on the field that he can be an average NFL QB let alone the future of the franchise and he sure as hell hasn't shown in the lockeroom what being a "leader" means. And folks, that is what the QB is, the leader.

The ONLY thing anyone can hold on to to say that JP is this alleged QB of the future is that the Bills drafted him in Round 1. No more No less. Plus you all sit here and diss other moves by TD, but this move is fine. Maybe this is just another TD blunder, who knows. We'll find out, hopefully, one way or another next year at this time.

God knows, NONE of us want to sit here and discuss this BS QB controversy of mediocrity.

[Albany,n.y.]

JP's worst game was the last game of the season against the Jets. Watched a career backup show why he is a career backup while a meathead coach wouldn't let him on the field. I'm sure he was PO'd big time.

[The_Philster]

JP's worst game was the last game of the season against the Jets. Watched a career backup show why he is a career backup while a meathead coach wouldn't let him on the field. I'm sure he was PO'd big time.
:bf1:

[Bill Cody]

pat has a man crush on KH, stop trying to reason with a man in love. Pat is going to drop a bomb in his sponge bob boxers when holcombe doesnt win the job.

either that, or he will be totally content going 3-13 w/ holcombe at qb and the bills still not knowing if jp could be a viable starter with playing experience.

See now that's really unnecessary. He disagrees with you but his motives are honorable. This is an Ice type post- that's below you. Patrick wants the Bills to win games. He is right about one thing and it's hard to debate- this team would win more games this year with KH than Lossman. I disagree with Pat's reasoning because I think KH is a limited player and I don't see the plus of going 7-9 vs 3-13 but I understand it. We all want the same thing at the end of the day.

[BillsFever21]

A. Holcomb had to deal with the same coaches. So if we upgraded, it should help his play also.

B. You never know. Sure we don't look good, but the Jets should be terrible, Miami is way overrated and NE lost a ton of players for the second year in a row. Plus, if Spikes comes back and Willis can put up a big year in front of that O-line we're rebuilding, you never know.

Do you think the Jets have a good chance to win the division?

They have just as good of a chance as us. We were both just as bad last season. So if we have a good chance then they also do. How can the Jets just be terrible but we have a chance to win the division? We lost a ton of starters and replaced them with nobody.

Even with the Patriots stripped down roster they are still better then our roster. Even with Miami overrated they still have a better roster then us. And the biggest deciding factor with Miami and New England over us is they have good HC's. We have Dick Jauron.

I bet you were probably one of the people last year who was predicting New England to win about 7 games and miss the playoffs.

Homerism blinds any sense of reality with you. Get help.

[BillsFever21]

Oh one more thing. Didn't them terrible Jets kick your boy's ass last year when he threw about 4 INT's?

For as bad as you said JP was when he was a first year starter and actually played some good defenses, your boy only had one more win and two more TD's. Your boy also had 5 more fumbles and two more fumbles lost.

Losman had 8 TD's and 11 TO's(with fumbles) as a first year starter and against some good teams.

Holcomb had 10 TD's and 13 TO's(with fumbles. Also had the highest fumble rate in the NFL) as a 10 year vet against only 1 good team.

Wow, you really have something to brag about. I guess that's what it's like when you're "special" and blinded by homerism.

[RockStar36]

Does Tackling Dummy actually post anything or just groan at everyone's post who isn't pro the career backup?

[jmb1099]

My main problem with JP is his absolute putrid completion percentage. Which leads me to believe he isn't the qb of the future. Yes, I might be wrong...however in todays NFL if you can't complete about 60% of your passes you're usually labelled as not a good QB.

And JP didn't even complete HALF of his passes, then had his worst day as a pro in his last start of the year.

Those are my issues with just annointing him the starter.
John Elway: 47.5%, 6.42 YPA, 7 TD, 14 INT, 54.9 rating

Eli Manning: 48.2%, 5.29 YPA, 6 TD, 9 INT, 55.4 rating

Troy Aikman: 52.9%, 6.0 YPA, 9 TD, 18 INT, 55.7 rating

Drew Bledsoe: 49.9%, 5.81 YPA, 15 TD, 15 INT, 65.0 rating

Steve Young: 53.7%, 6.29 YPA, 8 TD, 13 INT, 65.5 rating
You were saying?

[BillsFever21]

John Elway: 47.5%, 6.42 YPA, 7 TD, 14 INT, 54.9 rating

Eli Manning: 48.2%, 5.29 YPA, 6 TD, 9 INT, 55.4 rating

Troy Aikman: 52.9%, 6.0 YPA, 9 TD, 18 INT, 55.7 rating

Drew Bledsoe: 49.9%, 5.81 YPA, 15 TD, 15 INT, 65.0 rating

Steve Young: 53.7%, 6.29 YPA, 8 TD, 13 INT, 65.5 rating
You were saying?

Them guys should've never had another chance to play again. They were absolutely terrible. Their teams should've went with a 10 year proven loser journeymen vet who might've had a couple more TD's and 1 or 2 more victories instead.

[Mr. Pink]

John Elway: 47.5%, 6.42 YPA, 7 TD, 14 INT, 54.9 rating

Eli Manning: 48.2%, 5.29 YPA, 6 TD, 9 INT, 55.4 rating

Troy Aikman: 52.9%, 6.0 YPA, 9 TD, 18 INT, 55.7 rating

Drew Bledsoe: 49.9%, 5.81 YPA, 15 TD, 15 INT, 65.0 rating

Steve Young: 53.7%, 6.29 YPA, 8 TD, 13 INT, 65.5 rating
You were saying?


A. None of these players on this list had the talent around them that JP did last year. They all played on absolutely dreadful teams their first season. With Troy's Cowboys going 1-15.

B. With the exception of Steve Young, all these players were NUMBER 1 OVERALL picks, not just the 1st QB taken. Where was JP taken? 22nd overall 4th QB taken.

C. Now we're using examples of 4 sure HOFers to compare to JP and one marginal HOF shot in Bledsoe.

D. I can go through and cite 4 times as many QBs with comparable numbers to JP in his first year that never amounted to a thing in the NFL. Dan McGwire, Jim Druckenmiller, Heath Shuler, David Klingler, Akili Smith. Maybe their teams shoulda just gave them a chance too!

When you're the first QB taken in a draft class YOU have immeasurable talent among the rest of the QBs in that draft class. At least at the college ranks. So yes of course, you give them more time to "pan" out. When you've been taken while 3 QBs are taken ahead of you it's because your talent level isn't as high as the first guy taken. Now does it ever play out that that is the end all be all? No.

But you're taking a sampling of QBs who were selected 1st overall in the draft and a QB who played in the USFL before ever taking an NFL start. Then trying in some convoluted asinine approach to try and say JP is comparable to these guys and look what happened! These teams stuck with these rookies, who, let's face it were much better players-talent and playing level wise, than JP is at the same time.

Do you even watch the games? JP can't even hit a 7 yard out route. Who's fault is that? JPs' last I checked.

By the way, it's also very difficult to compare QBs pre-salary cap era to QBs today. This is now a win-now league with parity rampant. You can't afford to sit on a guy for 4-5 years and hope he'll develop into something. The window in the NFL right now is very small for when you peak.....guys get good now and teams can't keep them because they can't afford them. Back to the time of Elway, Young, Aikman you could sit on these QBs and let them develop with the team around them because when they got good, you'd have them til whenever you felt like getting rid of them. As well as the rest of the good players on your team.

If Montana-Young was going on today....Steve Young woulda never played a down as a 49er. Some other team would have snatched him up in free agency or via trade, because no team would have been able to afford Montana and Youngs' contract together.

By the way, Druckenmiller and McGwire only saw one year of NFL action...the team realized it was time to cut their losses and move on. But I'm sure if you were a 49ers or 'Hawks fan you woulda put the same type of "historical" perspective and said that they should have left them in there to develop and be a franchise guy too.

[The_Philster]

A...one..you can't judge a player based on the talent surrounding him...but JP was hardly surrounded by great talent all around him. The Oline sucked...and without protection, no QB will succeed
B..where a player is drafted has no bearing on how good a player he will be. If it did, Tom Brady would be still holding a clipboard
C...more along the lines of a history lesson than an actual comparison....and who's to say JP won't turn out to be just as good as or better than any of them? If you can honestly say that, then you better be a rich man from the lottery winnings because that would require psychic ability
D...can't say about Druckenmiller and McGwire...but the rest of those guys had plenty of opportunities. McGwire was in the league for 5 seasons...4 with the Seahawks...Druckenmiller was in for 2
Shuler 11 games his rookie season..7 his second year in the league
Klingler...4...14..10...
Smith...7...11

as far as the Montana-Young thing..Steve Young came in when Montana got hurt

As for JP's inaccuracies, those are timing problems..something that a young QB is bound to do at first...easily correctable physical errors...errors that were corrected in the latter part of the season

care to make any points I can't tear apart? :scratch:

[Mr. Pink]

Druckenmiller played a total of 6 games as a pro....6.

McGwire-13.

Did either of these guys get a chance to show their "skills?" Not really.
That might be because they didn't have NFL skills, which could be the same thing about Losman now. We don't know. I'm sick of reading these comparisons to good QBs and that Losman might turn into one of them, but when you compare him to a bad QB you're instantly cast as wrong.

[TacklingDummy]

. I'm sick of reading these comparisons to good QBs and that Losman might turn into one of them, but when you compare him to a bad QB you're instantly cast as wrong.

They are not comparing JP to HOF QBs. They are giving us a history lesson. :curtsey:

Even though JP shouldn't even be the same sentence as those QBs. As of right now JP is more like Drunkenmiller, Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Andre Ware, Marinovich, Harrington side of history.

[The_Philster]

No...it's not a case of being cast as wrong...it's simply a case of we can't know for sure. Some QBs work out and some don't...but their rookie seasons are pretty clearly never a good indicator on whether they will or not....and that's the problem I'm seeing...people willing to throw him under the bus based on what he did last season. Yeah, it's possible he may never turn out to be anything...but it's also possible he could turn out to be great :idunno:

[YardRat]

A. Sure you can...it's a team game, and your performance should partially be judged on how you add or detract from the overall team performance.

B. Brady was still holding a clipboard, until Bledsoe got hurt. He earned the job by performing when he actually was forced onto the field. He out-performed Bledsoe when he was given the opportunity. Losman has yet to out-perform anybody.

C. History would show that it's more likely for a first round QB to go belly-up and bust than become a HOFer, and I wish you'd get over this "it's not a comparison" hang-up, when it's clearly a comparison. You stack individual's stats side-by-side in an argument, and you're comparing them. Pretty basic.

D. FTY's reference was to first-year stats only, not after. As was jmb's. Don't muddy the argument by adding in year's 2 thru whatever.

I don't see where you've torn up any points, IMO.

[ublinkwescore]

I'll ask the question from the parallel universe...did JP, other than KC, have a good game?

The second Miami game comes to mind - our coaching staff and their bonehead calls screwed us out of our season sweep.

[Mr. Pink]

A...one..you can't judge a player based on the talent surrounding him...but JP was hardly surrounded by great talent all around him. The Oline sucked...and without protection, no QB will succeed
B..where a player is drafted has no bearing on how good a player he will be. If it did, Tom Brady would be still holding a clipboard
C...more along the lines of a history lesson than an actual comparison....and who's to say JP won't turn out to be just as good as or better than any of them? If you can honestly say that, then you better be a rich man from the lottery winnings because that would require psychic ability
D...can't say about Druckenmiller and McGwire...but the rest of those guys had plenty of opportunities. McGwire was in the league for 5 seasons...4 with the Seahawks...Druckenmiller was in for 2
Shuler 11 games his rookie season..7 his second year in the league
Klingler...4...14..10...
Smith...7...11

as far as the Montana-Young thing..Steve Young came in when Montana got hurt

As for JP's inaccuracies, those are timing problems..something that a young QB is bound to do at first...easily correctable physical errors...errors that were corrected in the latter part of the season

care to make any points I can't tear apart? :scratch:


Since when can't you judge any player by his starting cast?
I'll stick with QB on this one.....

John Elway was absolute garbage til Denver put players around him...He had some of the pieces in 86-89 taking the Broncos to 3 SBs....not winning one til he got TD and a running game. Was John Elway a better "ability wise" QB in 98 than he was in 86? I highly doubt it, his cast was better, therefor he did better in the team concept.

Steve Young was garbage in 86 with the Bucs....came in for mop up/relief duty in 87 with the 49ers. Rating in 86 65.5 Rating in 87 120.8. You think it's just coincidence he went from a bad team to a good team and all of a sudden his numbers were better?

Brett Favre last year was absolutely terrible but had a good 04 season, did he just lose his skills in one year? Doubtful...the Packers were decimated by injuries and the team was absolutely horrid.

BTW no line around you, no QB will succeed is BS. Peyton Manning last year didn't have a line around him...he succeeded for the most part but then their weak o-line was his downfall vs Pittsburgh and the idiot liquored up kicker.

The better part is though, in your statement, you say you can't judge how good a player is by the talent around him. Then in the same statement say Losman wasn't good because of his o-line. Hypocritical a tad? Yes.

Also with your Tom Brady point...for every Tom Brady there's countless Spergon Wynns. You can't take an exception and pretend it's a rule.

[The_Philster]

A..so JP was supposed to make up for the O-Line deficiences all on his own :scratch: What were the O-lines like for the others QBs mentioned?
B...and because JP didn't light it up immediately, is he a bust?
C...I abhor stats..so easily manipulated...point is, since it's more likely that he'll be a bust, should we give up on him already?
D..look at FTY's post more closely....he mentioned first year as far as their early performances but he did mention about giving those players a chance. He didn't specify that those chances had to be given in their first seasons

[YardRat]

Right. 8 completions, 19 attempts, 100 yards, zero TD's and 1 INT over the last three quarters had nothing to do with it.

[ublinkwescore]

See now that's really unnecessary. He disagrees with you but his motives are honorable. This is an Ice type post- that's below you. Patrick wants the Bills to win games. He is right about one thing and it's hard to debate- this team would win more games this year with KH than Lossman. I disagree with Pat's reasoning because I think KH is a limited player and I don't see the plus of going 7-9 vs 3-13 but I understand it. We all want the same thing at the end of the day.

You're psychic?

How in the hell do you know that the Bills will win more games with Holcombe than Losman under center?

When Losman has had protection, he has looked damn good - see the Chiefs game, and the first half of the Dolphins game. when he's had no protection (see the Chargers game) he's obviously looked like $#!t.

With the speed we've now got at WR, Losman needs to be under center to take advantage of it. And if our OL has truely improved, don't be surprised to see us go like 8-8. And no, I'm not smoking anything.

[The_Philster]

The better part is though, in your statement, you say you can't judge how good a player is by the talent around him. Then in the same statement say Losman wasn't good because of his o-line. Hypocritical a tad? Yes.actually, the O-line made him look worse than he was....not given time to make his reads for instance...and he did have his own problems that he was working his way out of..point is, because of those O-line problems, he struggled. Didn't mean he was a worse QB because of the O-line...but the untrained observer might think so. For example..sacks..not always the fault of the O-line..or the QB...or the WRs. Each play is different. Sometimes the QB just isn't given any time..sometimes he holds onto the ball too long.

Also with your Tom Brady point...for every Tom Brady there's countless Spergon Wynns. You can't take an exception and pretend it's a rule.:huh: where are you going with this?

[YardRat]

actually, the O-line made him look worse than he was....

I disagree.

Willis rushed for 1200-plus yards. Holcomb wasn't sacked nearly as many times as JP in virtually the same # of attempts.

Considering those two factors, I would say that probably JP made the o-line look worse than it actually was.

[The_Philster]

Holcomb's also been in the league a lot longer than JP..he's learned how to avoid the rush ...through game action
as far as Willis, a line that run blocks successfully isn't always as good at pass blocking

BTW...nice to have a healthy debate without getting personal :up:

[YardRat]

The same o-line that blocked for Holcomb blocked for JP, and JP was sacked twice as much...the only difference is the QB.

If the o-line factor remains equal, yet the results are different depending on the x-factor (with the x-factor being QB), than the conclusion's results are a direct correlation to that x-factor.

The o-line didn't make JP look worse...JP made the o-line look worse.

Not that I'm saying they were that good, BTW :D

[Mr. Pink]

:huh: where are you going with this?


You said where a QB is picked has no bearing....generally the 1st QB overall has a greater chance to succeed than those QBs taken 4th or 8th. Not always true, but for the most part, yes.

There's always diamonds in the rough. But there's generally a reason guys are selected in round 1 as opposed to round 6. And obviously a guy drafted first overall is going to get more leeway and time to develop because the franchise has more invested in him.

But, where a QB is selected most certainly has a bearing on their potential NFL careers. From team to round selected. Does Big Ben do as well as he did if Buffalo moved up to take him? Doubtful. Does JP Losman do better if the Steelers took him? Probably. How much better, but who knows.

If the Browns took Brady in round 6 as opposed to Spergon Wynn, is Brady even in the league anymore? Not a chance. And then none of us know that Tom Brady is actually an excellent NFL QB. If the Browns take Kurt Warner in the 99 Expansion draft does Kurt Warner ever make a splash in this league? Not a chance.

To use a Buffalo specific example....

Jim Kelly was a round 1 choice, Frank Reich a 3rd round choice. When Kelly got hurt Reich would come in and play just as well if not better, see the comeback game. Then Reich left to go to Carolina and looked terrible...Why? Because he wasn't as good as Kelly, Buffalos' supporting cast was that strong to make him look better.

Hence why Reich was a 3rd round choice and why Kelly was a 1st.

[Bill Cody]

You're psychic?

How in the hell do you know that the Bills will win more games with Holcombe than Losman under center?



I don't need to be pyschic to know that- just not psycho.:snicker2:

[billsburgh]

The same o-line that blocked for Holcomb blocked for JP, and JP was sacked twice as much...the only difference is the QB.

If the o-line factor remains equal, yet the results are different depending on the x-factor (with the x-factor being QB), than the conclusion's results are a direct correlation to that x-factor.

The o-line didn't make JP look worse...JP made the o-line look worse.

Not that I'm saying they were that good, BTW :D
you are right, but as Phil pointed out, it's all about experience. That should improve as JP plays more and that's something that can not be learned or improved upon by holding a clipboard.

[ublinkwescore]

I don't need to be pyschic to know that- just not psycho.:snicker2:

:dork:

:doofus:

[YardRat]

you are right, but as Phil pointed out, it's all about experience. That should improve as JP plays more and that's something that can not be learned or improved upon by holding a clipboard.

You earn experience in the real games by out-playing the competition for your position in practice and pre-season.

[The_Philster]

You earn experience in the real games by out-playing the competition for your position in practice and pre-season.
one problem with that...we had aother guy who looked great in practice and preseason...wore #11..was part of a big and nasty QB controversy...;)

[ublinkwescore]

I don't wanna give any more clues away, but his initials were Rob Johnson - we kept the wrong QB for the sake of winning games.

[YardRat]

Totally different set of circumstances. I don't think the two are comparable :D

[The_Philster]

Totally different set of circumstances. I don't think the two are comparable :D
How do you figure?...you're talking about him winning the job based on practices and preseason games

[YardRat]

Sorry...Johnson/Flutie very different than Losman/Holcomb. And I don't want to re-visit Johnson/Flutie again for the umpteenth time :D

[The_Philster]

Let's see...unproven young QB with a lot of potential vs older mediocre QB with a few flashes every now and then :scratch: seems like deja vu all over again :idunno:

[YardRat]

Okay...I'll give you that much :D

[Philagape]

To pick up on a theme from another thread ....

What was Brett Favre's worst game?

[Patrick76777]

Do you think the Jets have a good chance to win the division?

They have just as good of a chance as us. We were both just as bad last season. So if we have a good chance then they also do. How can the Jets just be terrible but we have a chance to win the division? We lost a ton of starters and replaced them with nobody.

Even with the Patriots stripped down roster they are still better then our roster. Even with Miami overrated they still have a better roster then us. And the biggest deciding factor with Miami and New England over us is they have good HC's. We have Dick Jauron.

I bet you were probably one of the people last year who was predicting New England to win about 7 games and miss the playoffs.

Homerism blinds any sense of reality with you. Get help.


Talk about putting words in my mouth!

[Patrick76777]

Do you think the Jets have a good chance to win the division?

They have just as good of a chance as us. We were both just as bad last season. So if we have a good chance then they also do. How can the Jets just be terrible but we have a chance to win the division? We lost a ton of starters and replaced them with nobody.

Even with the Patriots stripped down roster they are still better then our roster. Even with Miami overrated they still have a better roster then us. And the biggest deciding factor with Miami and New England over us is they have good HC's. We have Dick Jauron.

I bet you were probably one of the people last year who was predicting New England to win about 7 games and miss the playoffs.

Homerism blinds any sense of reality with you. Get help.

and furthermore moron! I said, "You never know. Sure we don't look good but maybe?"

And now you're calling me a homer?????????