Marino at his best, JP last year. Who was better?

[ICE74129]

Seems like a simple question yes? Ok, Peyton Manning at his best, JP last year. Who is better?

Marino saw one superbowl in his 2nd year and at his BEST, never sniffed one again.

Peyton is nearly peaking right now, still hasn't sniffed one.

Where am I going with this? Look at EVERY team to make it to, or win a superbowl. the TEAMS were damn good. Many GREAT QB's never succeeded even getting there and some (Jim Kelly) never won it. Why? the TEAMS werent good enough, even though the QB was.

But at ton of you rip on JP. See the damn media has pushed this so much thats all some of you can spew. 'You only go as far as the QB takes you'. Really? Tell the Ravens that.

Kurt Warner. Talk about God Blessing you!. Arena ball guy, out of football sacking groceries at some market some where. played World league ball, Booted from the Green Bay roster. Trent Green gets hurt, he steps into the best situation in football. Great OL, the best back in football, all pro WR corp, Damn good defense, great coaching. Slinging the ball in a system most havent seen thanks to martz genius (and yeah as an OC for awhile he was a genius). Teams then catch on, St. Louis loses a ton of talent, Warner is gone. Went to a lesser team (NYG) and sucked. Now he is in arizona for about 1 more season till they hand the reigns to lienart.

Is warner the story of a great QB gone south, or an above average QB on a great team. Its the latter.

Fans are pissed, and so were some self centered veterans, that JP apperantly cost this great team a playoff spot. NFLN, ESPN, CBS, FOX Everyone said we were the next 'Pittsburgh'. Great Defense, Great running game blah blah blah. All JP had to do was 'manage' the game. Thats great, except for one thing...the team SUCKED! We went 9-7 against crap teams in 04 and everyone knew it. But fans said 'Hey, so what? we cant control who we play'. Some of us said 'yeah but we got our asses kicked against pittsburghs BACKUPS And it will bite us at some point'. Guess what? We got bit in 05. Further proof of that statement? How many veterans were cut this offseason or just allowed to walk? right there is your answer.

JP Losman is a damn good kid, and a damn good talent. Had he been drafted by a team with thier **** together, he would be doing just fine by now. But instead he is still ripped by fans not smart enough, nor adult enough, to be willing to say...'I fell for it'. I fell for the Tom Donahoe BS. It never was good enough. From day one TD picked wrong coaches, wrong players etc. He went for moves to put butts in the seats instead of winning football. I guess he forgot that WINNING above all else sells tickets. And now he is out of a job.

Bottom line on this and its FACT, and nothing will change it, Unless this TEAM gets better, I don't give a damn if we had Peyton manning, Palmer, Brees, Cullpepper, Delhome, or whomever, it just won't matter. ANY QB playing from behind most of the game, loses more often than not. ANY QB with no protection fails. ANY QB with crap playcalling that causes the offense to lose faith in the OC Fails. Am I saying we dont' need talent? No, JP Needs to be the guy because guys like Holcomb, etc are backups for a reason. You must still have some talent at the QB position. What I am saying is the TEAM is the thing.

So get off of JP's back and let the kid have this season to see what HE can do. He needs the reps, no getting around that. No QB succeeds without them. But unless Marv and DJ can get the team shored up, all thats going to happen is in about 08 or so, some other team may get themselfs a hell of a QB...and the Bills will be even further behind.

[Tatonka]

:up:

great post.

:couch:

[YardRat]

I fell for the Tom Donahoe BS. It never was good enough. From day one TD picked wrong coaches, wrong players etc. He went for moves to put butts in the seats instead of winning football. I guess he forgot that WINNING above all else sells tickets.

And what makes you think that JP isn't just another example of TD's "BS", another "wrong player", or another move to just put "butts in the seats"?

[Bill Brasky]

We went 9-7 against crap teams in 04 and everyone knew it. But fans said 'Hey, so what? we cant control who we play'. Some of us said 'yeah but we got our asses kicked against pittsburghs BACKUPS And it will bite us at some point'. Guess what? We got bit in 05.

What is the world coming to when ICE provides logic that half this place has still yet to comprehend.

[TacklingDummy]

Here's some logic, if the team around JP would make JP better, wouldn't it then also make KH better?

[Bill Brasky]

Here's some logic, if the team around JP would make JP better, wouldn't it then also make KH better?

JP is in his early-mid 20's... Holcomb is near the end of his career.

[PcA125]

:clap:

[Mitchy moo]

ICe,

I fully believe in JP, will he have the supporting staff? I hope.

[!Papacrunk!]

I remember when we had a good to great defense and we thought Jay Fielder was good enough to win enough games to get us to the post season and beyond. Even when we added that final piece in Ricky WIlliams, but unfortunately nothing really happened. Also, maybe I missed something since I've drank a few, but the gist is that a team will do well, if they have a lot of really good players surrounding the QB right?

[ICE74129]

:up:

great post.

:couch:

Thanks T

[ICE74129]

And what makes you think that JP isn't just another example of TD's "BS", another "wrong player", or another move to just put "butts in the seats"?

Because many outside the org rated him high, in fact TWO other teams flat planned on taking him in the first as well. With Willis we got the 'WTF' response. Only oakland picking about 30th or so was even thinking of him in the first.

JP also has a great attitude and is putting in all the work and effort he can to be the leader and QB of this team. A trait that so far has not been seen in many of TD's draft picks.

[ICE74129]

I remember when we had a good to great defense and we thought Jay Fielder was good enough to win enough games to get us to the post season and beyond. Even when we added that final piece in Ricky WIlliams, but unfortunately nothing really happened. Also, maybe I missed something since I've drank a few, but the gist is that a team will do well, if they have a lot of really good players surrounding the QB right?

I thought Fiedler had a good shot as well. Problem is, like Buffalo, you have crap for an OL. You can't keep putting guys like Jamie Nails on the OL thinking you are building a good OL. You also had holes in your Defense that showed as well.

[justasportsfan]

Except for TDummy, I don't think anyone is blasting Jp's talent. It's the mental part of his game that has yet to show that he has what it takes.

[TacklingDummy]

Except for TDummy, I don't think anyone is blasting Jp's talent. It's the mental part of his game that has yet to show that he has what it takes.

Actually TDummy hasn't ever blasted JPs talent. He's blasted JPs play.

[justasportsfan]

Actually TDummy hasn't ever blasted JPs talent. He's blasted JPs play.


You sure fooled everyone here.

[TacklingDummy]

JP also has a great attitude and is putting in all the work and effort he can to be the leader and QB of this team. A trait that so far has not been seen in many of TD's draft picks.

One thing JP is not, is a leader. A leader doesn't alienate the Vets. on the team. A leader doesn't say he feels uncomfortable leading older men.

[justasportsfan]

One thing JP is not, is a leader. A leader doesn't alienate the Vets. on the team. A leader doesn't say he feels uncomfortable leading older men.Yup, he's earning his leadership. You are wrong in saying however that he alienated his vets. The coaching staff did that. Fletcher made that clear that it wasn't about JP personally but it was all about having the best players in there.

[TacklingDummy]

I agree with Steve Fairchild the Bills OC about Losman....

"J.P. has some talent. Obviously, he was a first-round pick and he showed arm strength and all sorts of good things...
but that's just a little piece of being a good quarterback... Putting it together and producing on the field,
all the arm strength and athletic ability in the world doesn't guarantee that you'll produce as a quarterback..."

[TedMock]

I agree with what much of ICE has stated here, and I certainly agree with his philosophical view on this matter. The only thing I don't like is discrediting the importance of Dilfer and Warner on those teams. Most people do, the media included. The Ravens won with defense, but Dilfer was a leader on that team. He didn't have to carry them often, but he stepped up when necessary, and they went down hill when he left. Even in the beginning when that great defense was in tact. As for Warner, a nagging injury to his throwing hand is what's killing him. He's done because his hand is done. For 3 years, he was surrounded by the best talent in football. However, he also threw THE PRETTIEST pass in the entire NFL. Go back and watch his passes on tape. Sick. Always a spiral, and always a bulls-eye. He played very well in NY until he hit that hand again. Suddenly he lost his accuracy again. I don't know what he specifically did, but it's a mess because every time he dings it, he can't hold the ball.

[TacklingDummy]

Bottom line on this and its FACT, and nothing will change it, Unless this TEAM gets better, I don't give a damn if we had Peyton manning, Palmer, Brees, Cullpepper, Delhome, or whomever, it just won't matter. ANY QB playing from behind most of the game, loses more often than not.

Phew JP sure was playing from behind.

Houston Game: Bills winning at halftime 19-7
Tampa Game: Bills down 9-3 at Haltime
Atlanta Game: Bills down 17-13 at halftime
NO game: Bills down 13-7 at Halftime
KC game: Bills up at Haltime 7-3
SD game 35-10 at the half.
Car game: Bills up 6-3 at the half
Miami Game: Bills up 21-3 at half
NE game: 14-0 at the half

FACT of the matter, the Bills had a chance at winning 8 of those 9 games. OMG, I didn't realize how bad the JP led O was until now. In those 9 games, the Bills in the second half put up 3 (Hou), 0 (TB), 3 (Atl), 0 (NO), 7 (KC), 0 (SD), 3 (Car), 2 (mia), 7 (NE).

MY GOD, 3 FGs, 1 Safety , 2 TDs (1 all reed in garbage time) in the second half of 9 games combined. That is simply terrible. Great QB, make that average QB, can lead a team back from within a TD of the lead at halftime.

[Bill Cody]

ROFL. Spin it any way you like Ice. JP played worse than a career backup last year and it wasn't close. You could put JP on Indy and he'd still be the same arrogant ***** he is now. Where were all these excuses when Drew Bledsoe was here- then it was all his fault; the line was fine, the coaching was fine, it was Drew's fault. JP needs to play but until he shows something, save the spin.

[justasportsfan]

Phew JP sure was playing from behind.

Houston Game: Bills winning at halftime 19-7
Tampa Game: Bills down 9-3 at Haltime
Atlanta Game: Bills down 17-13 at halftime
NO game: Bills down 13-7 at Halftime
KC game: Bills up at Haltime 7-3
SD game 35-10 at the half.
Car game: Bills up 6-3 at the half
Miami Game: Bills up 21-3 at half
NE game: 14-0 at the half

FACT of the matter, the Bills had a chance at winning 8 of those 9 games. OMG, I didn't realize how bad the JP led O was until now. In those 9 games, the Bills in the second half put up 3 (Hou), 0 (TB), 3 (Atl), 0 (NO), 7 (KC), 0 (SD), 3 (Car), 2 (mia), 7 (NE).

MY GOD, 3 FGs, 1 Safety , 2 TDs (1 all reed in garbage time) in the second half of 9 games combined. That is simply terrible. Great QB, make that average QB, can lead a team back from within a TD of the lead at halftime.


You make it seem like it was all JP's fault. Moolarkey was one of the worst coaches in the NFL when it came to making halftime adjustments. Check out the stats. We didn't only suffer on the O side of the ball, we were worst defensively too. It's not fair to pin the problems of the D on Losman. He was a factor on the offensive side but the D also lost those games you pointed out.

[ICE74129]

ROFL. Spin it any way you like Ice. JP played worse than a career backup last year and it wasn't close. You could put JP on Indy and he'd still be the same arrogant ***** he is now. Where were all these excuses when Drew Bledsoe was here- then it was all his fault; the line was fine, the coaching was fine, it was Drew's fault. JP needs to play but until he shows something, save the spin.

Go find a cowboys board already. And there is no spin, its fact.

edited: personal attack

[ICE74129]

I agree with what much of ICE has stated here, and I certainly agree with his philosophical view on this matter. The only thing I don't like is discrediting the importance of Dilfer and Warner on those teams. Most people do, the media included. The Ravens won with defense, but Dilfer was a leader on that team. He didn't have to carry them often, but he stepped up when necessary, and they went down hill when he left. Even in the beginning when that great defense was in tact. As for Warner, a nagging injury to his throwing hand is what's killing him. He's done because his hand is done. For 3 years, he was surrounded by the best talent in football. However, he also threw THE PRETTIEST pass in the entire NFL. Go back and watch his passes on tape. Sick. Always a spiral, and always a bulls-eye. He played very well in NY until he hit that hand again. Suddenly he lost his accuracy again. I don't know what he specifically did, but it's a mess because every time he dings it, he can't hold the ball.

Both were average to above average QB's on great TEAMS.

[TacklingDummy]

You make it seem like it was all JP's fault. Moolarkey was one of the worst coaches in the NFL when it came to making halftime adjustments. Check out the stats. We didn't only suffer on the O side of the ball, we were worst defensively too. It's not fair to pin the problems of the D on Losman. He was a factor on the offensive side but the D also lost those games you pointed out.

He is the QB, he should get the blame when the O only puts up 3 FGs, 2 TDs in the 2nd half of 9 games. That D you are talking about helped put Buffalo in the Lead of 4 0f those 9 games, were within a TD of the lead in 3 of the 5 games the Bills were down. And were only down 14 against the Pats at half.

Just think If the Bills O actually did something in the 2nd half of those games besides going 3 plays and punt . The D would stay fresh and the Bills actually probably could have won atleast 7 of those 9 games.

Not to make Holcomb look better because the Bills could of won the NE and Jets game when he was QB. And the Denver game was 7-7 at the half.

That's 7 more wins the Bills could have had last year if they had a better QB. This could have been a 12-4 team last year with a average QB. Tom Donahoe really messed up cutting Bledsoe last year.

[YardRat]

ROFL. Spin it any way you like Ice. JP played worse than a career backup last year and it wasn't close. You could put JP on Indy and he'd still be the same arrogant ***** he is now. Where were all these excuses when Drew Bledsoe was here- then it was all his fault; the line was fine, the coaching was fine, it was Drew's fault. JP needs to play but until he shows something, save the spin.

I don't agree with the arrogant ***** comment, but the rest of the post is a bullseye.

[ICE74129]

I don't agree with the arrogant ***** comment, but the rest of the post is a bullseye.

His entire post is off from top to bottom.

[!Papacrunk!]

I thought Fiedler had a good shot as well. Problem is, like Buffalo, you have crap for an OL. You can't keep putting guys like Jamie Nails on the OL thinking you are building a good OL. You also had holes in your Defense that showed as well. Nails actually was actually pretty good for us before he ruptured his achilles, a part of the line that helped WIlliams get the rushing title. After that, he was done. This will be the year for JP. It's not in my position to say this, but if it was, it's the year to put up or shut up for him, correct? Hopefully for you guys, he won't turn into a Harrington and be holding a clipboard for another team in the future.

[YardRat]

His entire post is off from top to bottom.

You either have a very short memory, or just refuse to see the facts.

The defense and special teams were top-notch, the o-line was adequate, and Mularkey was the '04 version of Nick Saban.

Bledsoe took an awful lot of flack for the Bills not making the play-offs that year, and most of the blame was laid at his feet.

[finsrclowns]

Go find a cowboys board already. And there is no spin, its fact. I can't help ignorant fans like you have no clue.

It's posts like this one that make it extremely hard to take anything you say seriously. Someone disagrees with you so you resort to personal attacks. Sad really. The original post you made is obvious in one sense and ridiculous in another. It's obvious we were a lot more than great QB play from winning a SB last year, but what has that got to do with Losman's poor play? Better QB play would have helped us win more games last year. Period.

I don't know anyone who claims Losman is the whole problem. But as of yet he has yet to show he's a part of the solution either. You don't need superior QB play to win a SB but generally speaking you do need very good QB play. Hopefully we'll see that this year from JP. Labeling anyone who questions JP as clueless is just juvenile.

[finsrclowns]

You either have a very short memory, or just refuse to see the facts.

The defense and special teams were top-notch, the o-line was adequate, and Mularkey was the '04 version of Nick Saban.

Bledsoe took an awful lot of flack for the Bills not making the play-offs that year, and most of the blame was laid at his feet.

Of course you're right on this. Anyone who doubts this should check this board's archives.

Even the loss to Pitt was made to be all Bledsoe. It wasn't Bledsoe that let Pitt's 3rd stringers run the ball down our throats all day. The scary part was Pitt's subs won the battle at the LOS on both sides of the ball all day. Drew had a bad game but the blame for that loss starts with the HC and goes all the way down the line to the other 52 guys also. Truthfully the close early losses when Henry was playing mopy, half speed football was the biggest reason we fell short of the playoffs in 2004. If McGahee and Evans begin that year as starters we go 11-5 IMO. And that's despite the fact that it was a team lacking a playoff caliber O-line and lacking playoff caliber coaching.

[TedMock]

Both were average to above average QB's on great TEAMS.

I can see what you're saying with Dilfer, but I think he was average only by talent. As a team leader he was very good. Still is, which is why other QB's continue to credit him for their development.

As for Warner; A two-time league MVP is significantly better than average regardless of the talent around him. Your mates can make you look better, but not 2-time MVP better. The guy was the best passer in football for a brief time. Forget the WR's, RB, etc. He flat out threw the best ball in the NFL for 3 seasons. I don't think anybody can argue that fact.

[Bill Brasky]

I fully believe in JP, will he have the supporting staff? I hope.

His supporting cast will be about as good as the supporting cast from Glitter.

[justasportsfan]

He is the QB, he should get the blame when the O only puts up 3 FGs, 2 TDs in the 2nd half of 9 games. That D you are talking about helped put Buffalo in the Lead of 4 0f those 9 games, were within a TD of the lead in 3 of the 5 games the Bills were down. And were only down 14 against the Pats at half.

Just think If the Bills O actually did something in the 2nd half of those games besides going 3 plays and punt . The D would stay fresh and the Bills actually probably could have won atleast 7 of those 9 games.

Not to make Holcomb look better because the Bills could of won the NE and Jets game when he was QB. And the Denver game was 7-7 at the half.

That's 7 more wins the Bills could have had last year if they had a better QB. This could have been a 12-4 team last year with a average QB. Tom Donahoe really messed up cutting Bledsoe last year. I agree he was a liability in the offensive side of the ball. In the games you pointed out, he wasn't the one who got ran all over by, Vick , Brooks, a rookie named Cadilac, etc. JP wasn't the one getting torched by Sage either. The D also did their part in losing those games. JP wasn't entirely at fault unlike during Drew's time where the D bailed him out quite a lot.

[pats-were-right]

You either have a very short memory, or just refuse to see the facts.

The defense and special teams were top-notch, the o-line was adequate, and Mularkey was the '04 version of Nick Saban.

Bledsoe took an awful lot of flack for the Bills not making the play-offs that year, and most of the blame was laid at his feet.

I don't quite see the point with these comparisons. Shouldn't a team EXPECT MORE from Bledsoe and hold him to a HIGHER STANDARD than Losman?

[YardRat]

I don't quite see the point with these comparisons. Shouldn't a team EXPECT MORE from Bledsoe and hold him to a HIGHER STANDARD than Losman?

I don't think it's a comparison as much as an observation regarding the two QB's and the perception of why each (or the team under their direction) failed.

When Bledsoe was starting, the blame for failure was always put on his shoulders. Not the o-line, not the defense, not the coaching staff. With Losman at the helm, and basically the same line-up and coaching staff, JP is absolved by some of any responsibility and the fault lay with others.

It's an unreasonable conclusion :D

[bledslow]

Seems like a simple question yes? Ok, Peyton Manning at his best, JP last year. Who is better?

Marino saw one superbowl in his 2nd year and at his BEST, never sniffed one again.

Peyton is nearly peaking right now, still hasn't sniffed one.

Where am I going with this? Look at EVERY team to make it to, or win a superbowl. the TEAMS were damn good. Many GREAT QB's never succeeded even getting there and some (Jim Kelly) never won it. Why? the TEAMS werent good enough, even though the QB was.

But at ton of you rip on JP. See the damn media has pushed this so much thats all some of you can spew. 'You only go as far as the QB takes you'. Really? Tell the Ravens that.

Kurt Warner. Talk about God Blessing you!. Arena ball guy, out of football sacking groceries at some market some where. played World league ball, Booted from the Green Bay roster. Trent Green gets hurt, he steps into the best situation in football. Great OL, the best back in football, all pro WR corp, Damn good defense, great coaching. Slinging the ball in a system most havent seen thanks to martz genius (and yeah as an OC for awhile he was a genius). Teams then catch on, St. Louis loses a ton of talent, Warner is gone. Went to a lesser team (NYG) and sucked. Now he is in arizona for about 1 more season till they hand the reigns to lienart.

Is warner the story of a great QB gone south, or an above average QB on a great team. Its the latter.

Fans are pissed, and so were some self centered veterans, that JP apperantly cost this great team a playoff spot. NFLN, ESPN, CBS, FOX Everyone said we were the next 'Pittsburgh'. Great Defense, Great running game blah blah blah. All JP had to do was 'manage' the game. Thats great, except for one thing...the team SUCKED! We went 9-7 against crap teams in 04 and everyone knew it. But fans said 'Hey, so what? we cant control who we play'. Some of us said 'yeah but we got our asses kicked against pittsburghs BACKUPS And it will bite us at some point'. Guess what? We got bit in 05. Further proof of that statement? How many veterans were cut this offseason or just allowed to walk? right there is your answer.

JP Losman is a damn good kid, and a damn good talent. Had he been drafted by a team with thier **** together, he would be doing just fine by now. But instead he is still ripped by fans not smart enough, nor adult enough, to be willing to say...'I fell for it'. I fell for the Tom Donahoe BS. It never was good enough. From day one TD picked wrong coaches, wrong players etc. He went for moves to put butts in the seats instead of winning football. I guess he forgot that WINNING above all else sells tickets. And now he is out of a job.

Bottom line on this and its FACT, and nothing will change it, Unless this TEAM gets better, I don't give a damn if we had Peyton manning, Palmer, Brees, Cullpepper, Delhome, or whomever, it just won't matter. ANY QB playing from behind most of the game, loses more often than not. ANY QB with no protection fails. ANY QB with crap playcalling that causes the offense to lose faith in the OC Fails. Am I saying we dont' need talent? No, JP Needs to be the guy because guys like Holcomb, etc are backups for a reason. You must still have some talent at the QB position. What I am saying is the TEAM is the thing.

So get off of JP's back and let the kid have this season to see what HE can do. He needs the reps, no getting around that. No QB succeeds without them. But unless Marv and DJ can get the team shored up, all thats going to happen is in about 08 or so, some other team may get themselfs a hell of a QB...and the Bills will be even further behind.




Kurt warner before his hand injury was incredible--won 2 mvps--You just cant find a guy to throw a 20-25 yard dart after dart after dart after dart with pin-point accuracy time and time again---one year this guy completed 80 pass completions for 20 yards or more-- i dont think bubby brister,ryan leaf or trent dilfer was going to accomplish 1/10th of what warner did for those 3 healthy years.so far that dude who is now the qb in st.louis is not coming close to what kurt did at his peak.

marshall was very overrated before he got to st.louis, maybe it was because peyton in indy was inconsistent and the focus was put on stuffing the run--but once he got to stlouis,teams had to respect kurts incedibly accurate arm and could not jam the box,making life easier for faulk.


and there are times where one guy(or very few) can make a difference,if bledsoe was qb'ing the pats for the entire 2001 season,i would bet my life that the pats do not make the playoffs(he was playing that bad).

holcomb was a key reason for most of the success that buf did have last season-a hell of a lot more-so then jp

jim kelly was THAT BAD in the 2nd,3rd, and 4th superbowls--and when one guy is playing that bad(LIKE KELLY) it effects the entire team.

marino was at his best that year,but was at his worst for that superbowl,and because of he(ONE MAN),it brought down the entire team.

AGAIN one guy can make that much of a difference(in a good or negative way)-jp is not that guy to give positive results to a team----- he cant even perform well against the bad teams(wich is actually kind of important,since not every team is good/great).

jp has has a miserable qb IQ--he is football re-tarded.

[Iehoshua]

Drew still sucks!
:bravo:

[Bill Cody]

Drew still sucks!
:bravo:

:moon: