What homers and realists are

[X-Era]

Homer= rose colored glasses wearing homo dancing around thinking eveything is perfect

Realist= Bitter cynical bastards who hate everything

I dont want to be EITHER.

What I am is someone who expects less than perfect but hopes for the best.

Im a Rea-mer or a Hol-ist, hell ya, like the sounds of both.

Nuff said. Labels are for food products, my name is an unpronoucable symbol for "he who is hung like yak".

Cant we all just Bink Dreer and Fut the Shug Up?

[R. Rich]

What about us bitter, cynical bastards who don't hate?

[X-Era]

What about us bitter, cynical bastards who don't hate?

Wait, "Fair and Balanced" cynical bastards? Sounds a bit O'Reilly.

[X-Era]

What about us bitter, cynical bastards who don't hate?

If you mean your a Tequila drinker whos sure that the bottle aint really Jose Cuervo but who loves the bar anyway, Im down with that.

[R. Rich]

Wait, "Fair and Balanced" cynical bastards? Sounds a bit O'Reilly.


I should beat you to a pulp for that, but I'm only going to beat you senseless.

[X-Era]

I should beat you to a pulp for that, but I'm only going to beat you senseless.

On my 6th beer, this will be a short fight for you.

[R. Rich]

Haha!!

Don't tell me 6 beers make you that wasted.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Homer= rose colored glasses wearing homo dancing around thinking eveything is perfect

Realist= Bitter cynical bastards who hate everything

I dont want to be EITHER.

What I am is someone who expects less than perfect but hopes for the best.

Im a Rea-mer or a Hol-ist, hell ya, like the sounds of both.

Nuff said. Labels are for food products, my name is an unpronoucable symbol for "he who is hung like yak".

Cant we all just Bink Dreer and Fut the Shug Up?

I just wanted to post here real quick to let you know I am NONE to happy with your definition of a homer....

[LtBillsFan66]

I'm a realistic homer.

I hate "realists" though. They find excuses for everything that might go wrong in the future. They make me sick to my stomach.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I'm a realistic homer.

I hate "realists" though. They find excuses for everything that might go wrong in the future. They make me sick to my stomach.
Realists=:curse:s

[LtBillsFan66]

Realists=ass holes
I'd get banned if I expressed how I really felt about "realists."

[THATHURMANATOR]

So would I BF!

[Mr. Miyagi]

Im a Rea-mer
:rofl: Phil wants your number!

[YardRat]

A rea-mer hole-ist, no less.

[TacklingDummy]

I dont want to be EITHER.



You are a JP Homer. But I dont want to be accused of thread hijacking again.

[The_Philster]

:rofl: Phil wants your number!
:huh:

[X-Era]

You are a JP Homer. But I dont want to be accused of thread hijacking again.
Tackling Hezbollah Realist Dummy speaks!!!

Im for starting the best QB that has both a future and the most immediate talent, even if un-realized, for now as well. I AM willing to trade todays sustained mediocrity for a more risky chance at greater success or failure.

Thats how I feel, dont like it, too bad.

[jmb1099]

This homer realist stuff is the best thing since.........Nall Ball!!!

[Philagape]

:spam:

[OpIv37]

Homer= rose colored glasses wearing homo dancing around thinking eveything is perfect

Realist= Bitter cynical bastards who hate everything

I dont want to be EITHER.

What I am is someone who expects less than perfect but hopes for the best.

Im a Rea-mer or a Hol-ist, hell ya, like the sounds of both.

Nuff said. Labels are for food products, my name is an unpronoucable symbol for "he who is hung like yak".

Cant we all just Bink Dreer and Fut the Shug Up?

It's always something on Bills fans. Last year it was the Amigos versus the Ostrich Club.

Before that it was the Flutie people vs the Johnson people.

[THATHURMANATOR]

It's always something on Bills fans. Last year it was the Amigos versus the Ostrich Club.

Before that it was the Flutie people vs the Johnson people.
The ostrich club was at least 3 years ago!! **** THE REALISTS!

[Mr. Cynical]

Get it right. Los Amigos de la Realidad.

:mex:

[Mr. Pink]

Homers = The Bills organization can NEVER EVER do any wrong at the present time, but everything in the past that was associated with this team and is now gone was bad. And we're bad for them being gone. But holdovers from previous regimes are obviously good, because the front office now is good! Or something.

Realists = Someone who realizes and understands that we're a team full of question marks. We're not going to be all that good come sundays and we accept this. All the while hoping that the team starts to gel and come together as an unit in the next couple seasons so that we can LEGITIMATELY be competitive in this league.

But you're right, eph us. We want a LEGITIMATE contender, while the homers "settle" for because they're the Bills they're good.

Guess what? I'm sure there are fans of the 49ers who think they're a good team too. Doesn't make it true.

[SABURZFAN]

Homer= rose colored glasses wearing homo dancing around thinking eveything is perfect



being that i'm an outsider to the group,i want to step in and tell you that you have it all wrong.the Homers are a group that love their football team and won't let the naysayers (The B!tches) pessimistic attitude ruin their spirit to root for the Bills.whoever they field out there,The Homers will root their team on to a win.they will be there through thick and thin.they will evaluate every game and point out every area of the team.the naysayers will only point out the areas where we are weak.they will harp on it ALL season and repeat everything they said for the year of 2006.the finger pointing and the "i told you so's" will be every other post and it will be something that they ALREADY know.

[The_Philster]

Homers = The Bills organization can NEVER EVER do any wrong at the present time, but everything in the past that was associated with this team and is now gone was bad. And we're bad for them being gone. But holdovers from previous regimes are obviously good, because the front office now is good! Or something.

Realists = Someone who realizes and understands that we're a team full of question marks. We're not going to be all that good come sundays and we accept this. All the while hoping that the team starts to gel and come together as an unit in the next couple seasons so that we can LEGITIMATELY be competitive in this league.

But you're right, eph us. We want a LEGITIMATE contender, while the homers "settle" for because they're the Bills they're good.

Guess what? I'm sure there are fans of the 49ers who think they're a good team too. Doesn't make it true.
Your definitions may be accurate..in a dictionary sense. But here, they hold no water. You see, there are 3 clear cut sets of fans.
You have the homers..which really...I see none existing
You have the realists..people who see the good as well as the bad. There's a group calling themselves the Homers that actally fits into that set
And you have the downers/pessimists/cynics/whatever...who can find nothing but faults with the team. Here on this board, they call themselves realists but the fact that they find nothing but faults...and even come up with ridiculous reasons to back their views...makes them anything but realists. Like I said, true realists see the good as well as the bad.

[Earthquake Enyart]

There's nothing wrong with homo dancing in moderation, if you are secure in your masculinity.

[Jan Reimers]

It's always something on Bills fans. Last year it was the Amigos versus the Ostrich Club.

Before that it was the Flutie people vs the Johnson people.
Hell, it used to be the Kemp people versus the Lamonica people, or the Cookie Gikchrist people versus the Saban people. If we weren't fighting about something, we wouldn't know what to do.

[X-Era]

Homers = The Bills organization can NEVER EVER do any wrong at the present time, but everything in the past that was associated with this team and is now gone was bad. And we're bad for them being gone. But holdovers from previous regimes are obviously good, because the front office now is good! Or something.

Realists = Someone who realizes and understands that we're a team full of question marks. We're not going to be all that good come sundays and we accept this. All the while hoping that the team starts to gel and come together as an unit in the next couple seasons so that we can LEGITIMATELY be competitive in this league.

But you're right, eph us. We want a LEGITIMATE contender, while the homers "settle" for because they're the Bills they're good.

Guess what? I'm sure there are fans of the 49ers who think they're a good team too. Doesn't make it true.

Why YOUR wrong= So called realists are nothing more than those that can find no good in anything, will have no hope for something unproven, and will have no faith that things will get better

[X-Era]

being that i'm an outsider to the group,i want to step in and tell you that you have it all wrong.the Homers are a group that love their football team and won't let the naysayers (The B!tches) pessimistic attitude ruin their spirit to root for the Bills.whoever they field out there,The Homers will root their team on to a win.they will be there through thick and thin.they will evaluate every game and point out every area of the team.the naysayers will only point out the areas where we are weak.they will harp on it ALL season and repeat everything they said for the year of 2006.the finger pointing and the "i told you so's" will be every other post and it will be something that they ALREADY know.

Why YOUR wrong = Homers are people who base all their opinions on the love for their team. They will not critically analyze and be willing to come to any negative or concerning conclusion.

This is no different in being far left or right. BOTH are wrong. How about dead smack in the middle.

Moderates are the way to be. Whats wrong with expecting mediocrity but hoping for success?

I have little faith that we are a SB team this year, but I have TONS of hope for our young players to become elite league players. Once that occurs, our chance at a SB win goes up exponentially!

Theres no LOGICAL way anyone can look at this team and either:

1) Truthfully believe we have a shot at the SB this year, but theres nothing wrong with hoping for it.

2) Not be excited and hopeful for the progression of some of our key players. Losman at QB, Evans as #1, Whitner, McCargo, McGahee through a revamped line and with Losman adding prowess top our pass game.

Notice its MODERATED excitement. A hope for more, but an expectation for mediocrity.

Ill be a homer when Losman becomes Kelly, Evans becomes Steve Smith, McGahee becomes Shaun Alexander, and we are locks for the playoffs each year. But will I wallow in the mean time and complain, whine, and ***** about every damn move like its Nagasaki? Hell no, Ill enjoy what could be the building of the aforementioned team.

[The_Philster]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=1557404#post1557404

The definition of what makes up homers and realists on this board

[The_Philster]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=1557404#post1557404

The definition of what makes up homers and realists on this board

[X-Era]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=1557404#post1557404

The definition of what makes up homers and realists on this board

Sorry man, but those definitions are based on a biased veiwpoint.

Obviously this isnt as black and white as I make it, but I merely give the extremes. I think 80% or more of us lie somewhere in the grey middle.

Forget the labels. Simply understand logically where we are today and our most likely record at the end of next year (5 and 11 in my opinion). But, show that you are hopeful for our "building blocks" to show prgress toward a SB ring.

This is COMPLETELY different than labeling anything unproven as crap, and labeling this team as a doomed, failure.

[HAMMER]

JP, do not blaspheme my friend. You must not stray from the party lines.

[The_Philster]

Sorry man, but those definitions are based on a biased veiwpoint.

Obviously this isnt as black and white as I make it, but I merely give the extremes. I think 80% or more of us lie somewhere in the grey middle.

Forget the labels. Simply understand logically where we are today and our most likely record at the end of next year (5 and 11 in my opinion). But, show that you are hopeful for our "building blocks" to show prgress toward a SB ring.

This is COMPLETELY different than labeling anything unproven as crap, and labeling this team as a doomed, failure.
No...those definitions are based on the posts made by the people on the boards...those of us calling ourselves "homers" are anything but. We're just not whining like little crybabies because the Bills aren't magically Super Bowl contenders in one offseason. We realize this team isn't of that caliber but we also realize one thing that the "realists" fail to...that we aren't professionals at this and while the pros are hardly infallible, odds are better that they know a little bit about what they are doing....and the new regime has yet to give us a reason to doubt them and think they're a bunch of screwups. ..we haven't played a down yet. Going by the way some of the "realists" talk, the season is already over.

[X-Era]

No...those definitions are based on the posts made by the people on the boards...those of us calling ourselves "homers" are anything but. We're just not whining like little crybabies because the Bills aren't magically Super Bowl contenders in one offseason. We realize this team isn't of that caliber but we also realize one thing that the "realists" fail to...that we aren't professionals at this and while the pros are hardly infallible, odds are better that they know a little bit about what they are doing....and the new regime has yet to give us a reason to doubt them and think they're a bunch of screwups. ..we haven't played a down yet. Going by the way some of the "realists" talk, the season is already over.

It sounds as if were in screaming agreement. I feel the same way you do. With one exception, in a non-playoff year, the games are less critical than the development of your SB ring team. We need to know right now today, which of these players that does and does not include. Youth development and team assessment is THE most critical part of the "on" season when your not going to the playoffs.

I watched in horror as some here clamored to start mediocre has-never-beens to try to win one or two more games, while benching players who have the potential to be our answer. Its realated because its a shot at those realists who have no vision of what we REALLY need and will sacrifice future for now.

I will NOT support this crap this year in the name of "playing our best players" only to hopelessly end up 5 and 11 instead of 4 and 12.

Ill take a few more losses and develop the youngsters so as not to be in the EXACT same position the next year, but rather building on a future.

Homer? absolutely not. If Losman ends up sucking and showing no improvement, I will be the first to demand our future QB NOW. But I also wont support the not now, not ever, and never will be clown in Holcomb either.

Theres way to many teams reaping the rewards of youing QB's in this league to play clowns like Warner, Garcia, and Holcomb. Notice I put him in better company than he deserves.

[The_Philster]

That's not an exception by any means. At least not in regards to me :hi5:
Obviously, benching Nate in favor of Youboty would be stupid even though Nate likely will be gone next year and Youboty, King, or Greer will take his starting spot. Why's it stupid? Because Youboty will still get his playing time. But the QB situation is different. Holcomb's never been more than a solid backup who can keep things together for a few games if the starter were to go down. He couldn't unseat Tim Couch even though he showed a better command of the offense in the scrimmage in 2003. So obviously he's not any good on a consistent basis...and we saw that last season. Developing JP, or Nall, or whoever, is the only way to go, IMO.

[SABURZFAN]

Why YOUR wrong = Homers are people who base all their opinions on the love for their team. They will not critically analyze and be willing to come to any negative or concerning conclusion.




there's another group for that.they're known as idiots.

[Mr. Cynical]

Your definitions may be accurate..in a dictionary sense. But here, they hold no water. You see, there are 3 clear cut sets of fans.
You have the homers..which really...I see none existing
You have the realists..people who see the good as well as the bad. There's a group calling themselves the Homers that actally fits into that set
And you have the downers/pessimists/cynics/whatever...who can find nothing but faults with the team. Here on this board, they call themselves realists but the fact that they find nothing but faults...and even come up with ridiculous reasons to back their views...makes them anything but realists. Like I said, true realists see the good as well as the bad.

Let me ask you this....by your definitions, I assume you are calling yourself a "realist". (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll continue under that assumption)

So, given the fact we have not made the playoffs in 6 years, and have had 1 wining season (by 1 game) during that time, what "good" have you seen in that span of time that has lasted and given us a winning team? Wouldn't that "good" stuff have produced something or wouldn't it still be here today?

In my book, if it's "good" it works out and/or is kept around. So yeah, being a realistic Bills fan in the last half decade has been more negative than positive. Why? BECAUSE THE TEAM SUCKS. I really wish the homers could grasp this concept. If this were '00 or '01 I'd say "hey, we need to shape up a little here and get back to form." But it has been SIX YEARS. I think anyone with a logical brain can see that a team that loses for this long has very, very, very little "good".

When the team starts winning, and winning against good teams, then the realists will say more positive things. But to say positive things when the team so clearly is not doing the right things is just delusional...or, "homerish".

[John Doe]

But to say positive things when the team so clearly is not doing the right things is just delusional...or, "homerish".

I believe that the team is clearly doing just about everything right in the sense of the systems that they have put in place and the players that are now on the team to run them.

That is exactly why I think that there are possibilities for success this year.

[The_Philster]

1..we have some good players like Spikes, Clements, Moorman, Evans, McGee, Schobel....they weren't surrounded by enough talent at other positions (like head coach) to help the team win. There's not a player alive at any position who wins games on his own in football....we have more that could work out for us like Triplett, Whitner, McCargo...that much remains to be seen
2...by no means have I ever said that we don't still need some serious improvements in some key areas..TE, O-line, Dline...to name a few examples
3....
when the team so clearly is not doing the right things that statement is beyond idiotic unless you're rich from the lotto due to your psychic powers. We may very well have made enough moves to get us deep into the playoffs for all we know. Or we could've made moves that set us back further..there's no way of knowing that without psychic powers. We won't know that UNTIL THEY PLAY THE GAMES!! Get a ****ing clue about that already....sheesh!

[jmb1099]

Let me ask you this....by your definitions, I assume you are calling yourself a "realist". (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll continue under that assumption)

So, given the fact we have not made the playoffs in 6 years, and have had 1 wining season (by 1 game) during that time, what "good" have you seen in that span of time that has lasted and given us a winning team? Wouldn't that "good" stuff have produced something or wouldn't it still be here today?

In my book, if it's "good" it works out and/or is kept around. So yeah, being a realistic Bills fan in the last half decade has been more negative than positive. Why? BECAUSE THE TEAM SUCKS. I really wish the homers could grasp this concept. If this were '00 or '01 I'd say "hey, we need to shape up a little here and get back to form." But it has been SIX YEARS. I think anyone with a logical brain can see that a team that loses for this long has very, very, very little "good".

When the team starts winning, and winning against good teams, then the realists will say more positive things. But to say positive things when the team so clearly is not doing the right things is just delusional...or, "homerish".
I hear what you're saying. I have no problem highlighting the obvious and accepting where things with the team. I don't need to cover them all over again, they have in fact been beat to death which is why we have seen the emergence of the "Homer realists" war 06. Lets consider the receiver situation for a moment. Moulds is gone and we have a big question mark about a number one receiver right? I don't see it as a question at all Evans is our number one and he will play well. Why would I come to this conclusion? because he played well even during the QB circus. I'm not in the least bit worried about it, nor do I care if anyone thinks he'll suck. What is frustrating isn't that others have different opinions, but that there are some who will immediatley say there is no possibility that Lee Evans will ever be a good number one receiver without seeing if Lee Evans will ever be a good number one receiver. The "realist" crystal ball works no better than the "homer" crystal ball. To denounce any possibility of a good season is not realistic, to say its highly unlikely...yeah I can see that. And for the record I hate losing, loathe it, but I can't help how I feel about the Bills, they wil forever be my team. For the record I don't think the administration can do no wrong...please. For the record I see everything wrong with the team that the"realists" do, but I won't denounce the possibilty of the possibility because that is as unrealistic as you can get. Some of the realists on this board are homers too, they root the loudest for themselves and refuse to accept the possibility that they might be wrong.

[jamze132]

Homers = The Bills organization can NEVER EVER do any wrong at the present time, but everything in the past that was associated with this team and is now gone was bad. And we're bad for them being gone. But holdovers from previous regimes are obviously good, because the front office now is good! Or something.

Realists = Someone who realizes and understands that we're a team full of question marks. We're not going to be all that good come sundays and we accept this. All the while hoping that the team starts to gel and come together as an unit in the next couple seasons so that we can LEGITIMATELY be competitive in this league.

But you're right, eph us. We want a LEGITIMATE contender, while the homers "settle" for because they're the Bills they're good.

Guess what? I'm sure there are fans of the 49ers who think they're a good team too. Doesn't make it true.
Being a Homer doesn't mean we think that the Bills are "good". It means that we support our team like no other. We don't "settle" for anything. We expect a good product on the field as well. Don't try to distort your fears.

[jamze132]

No...those definitions are based on the posts made by the people on the boards...those of us calling ourselves "homers" are anything but. We're just not whining like little crybabies because the Bills aren't magically Super Bowl contenders in one offseason. We realize this team isn't of that caliber but we also realize one thing that the "realists" fail to...that we aren't professionals at this and while the pros are hardly infallible, odds are better that they know a little bit about what they are doing....and the new regime has yet to give us a reason to doubt them and think they're a bunch of screwups. ..we haven't played a down yet. Going by the way some of the "realists" talk, the season is already over.
Jesus freakin' Christ!!! Finally, someone lays it out there!

Philster hit it on the head with his post. The definition of "Homers" and "realists" are written within.

Damn it feels good to be a Bills fan! And **** anyone who thinks otherwise!

[BAM]

I'm a full blown Homer now!

[Dozerdog]

:up:

[Mr. Cynical]

.that statement is beyond idiotic unless you're rich from the lotto due to your psychic powers. We may very well have made enough moves to get us deep into the playoffs for all we know. Or we could've made moves that set us back further..there's no way of knowing that without psychic powers. We won't know that UNTIL THEY PLAY THE GAMES!! Get a ****ing clue about that already....sheesh!

Do I need to pull posts from the prior seasons where you said the exact same things and we still sucked?

Look at the record for this team over the last 6 years.

Look at the staff hires/fires over the last 6 years.

Look at the drafts over the last 6 years.

Look at the FAs over the last 6 years.

The results? No playoffs in the last 6 years and only one winning season (1 above 500).

Any logical person would say that the team has not been making the right moves for a long time now. At what point do you say enough is enough? Ralph is the constant here and the only reason he is still here is because he is the owner and can't be bouced. But lets' face it - this team hasn't really been a contender since '95, only wining 1 playoff game since then.

Bottom line - there have been far many more wrong moves than right moves after Polian left. We're stuck with Ralph (good man but just doesn't have it anymore).

[The_Philster]

Do I need to pull posts from the prior seasons where you said the exact same things and we still sucked?
that would prove what exactly? How are you doing with those lottery winnings? I'm not the one making idiotic statements saying I already know how we'll be :rolleyes:


Any logical person would say that the team has not been making the right moves for a long time now.I guess you missed the news..:shout:Donahoe got canned months ago...it's a new regime...or are you saying Ralph lied to everyone when he said he was firing Donahoe? :shakeno:

[Mr. Cynical]

that would prove what exactly? How are you doing with those lottery winnings? I'm not the one making idiotic statements saying I already know how we'll be :rolleyes:

Ah the classic Philster "lottery ticket" line you use 1,235,623 times a month. You really should get some new material. That line has more mold than a two month old piece of bread.


I guess you missed the news..:shout:Donahoe got canned months ago...it's a new regime...or are you saying Ralph lied to everyone when he said he was firing Donahoe? :shakeno:

I guessed you missed the news that the team hasn't won a playoff game in 11 years and has one winning season in 6 years. Which part of those facts don't you get? The part where Ralph has made terrible decisions over the last 12 years (starting with the firing of Polian) or the part where we now have an 80 yr old first time GM and a castoff HC whose defensive "genius" hasn't once produced a top 10 defense?

Keep on drinking the Kool Aid and saying "we don't know the future" and putting your head into the sand. You've been saying it for years on this board so why change now. It's been working out great for ya, right?

[Mr. Cynical]

The "realist" crystal ball works no better than the "homer" crystal ball. To denounce any possibility of a good season is not realistic, to say its highly unlikely...yeah I can see that.

I can't speak for all the realists, but I never said it was "impossible". However, I will stick to saying it is "highly improbable". Anything can happen but to focus on that as the probable is a homeristic view. The realistic view is that this team is far more likely to suck than be good.

I too loathe losing and it's been pretty much a decade of it now, with the last 6 years being putrid. I have zero faith in Ralph at this point, little to none in Marv as a GM and negative faith in Dick. So yeah, I'm definitely looking at the glass half empty, but I doubt any but the hardiest homer would say that the odds are in our favor at this point.

[Devin]

Homers = The Bills organization can NEVER EVER do any wrong at the present time, but everything in the past that was associated with this team and is now gone was bad. And we're bad for them being gone. But holdovers from previous regimes are obviously good, because the front office now is good! Or something.

Realists = Someone who realizes and understands that we're a team full of question marks. We're not going to be all that good come sundays and we accept this. All the while hoping that the team starts to gel and come together as an unit in the next couple seasons so that we can LEGITIMATELY be competitive in this league.

But you're right, eph us. We want a LEGITIMATE contender, while the homers "settle" for because they're the Bills they're good.

Guess what? I'm sure there are fans of the 49ers who think they're a good team too. Doesn't make it true.

This is actually pretty far off, bordering on completley wrong.

[jmb1099]

I can't speak for all the realists, but I never said it was "impossible". However, I will stick to saying it is "highly improbable". Anything can happen but to focus on that as the probable is a homeristic view. The realistic view is that this team is far more likely to suck than be good.

I too loathe losing and it's been pretty much a decade of it now, with the last 6 years being putrid. I have zero faith in Ralph at this point, little to none in Marv as a GM and negative faith in Dick. So yeah, I'm definitely looking at the glass half empty, but I doubt any but the hardiest homer would say that the odds are in our favor at this point.
I don't know how many are actually focusing on the possible as the probable. I know we're having alot of fun with it at the moment and I think that is ok. I have some faith in Marv as gm, don't know what to think about Jauron at this point and Ralph? If he stays in Buffalo it is proof that he's not a greedy bastard like so many claim he is. If he were to move the team to LA (and don't think for a moment there haven't been offers) he would immediatley increase his revenue. Staying in Buffalo costs Ralph millions of dollars every year. So I know we may go 4 and 12 this year, but what I'm looking for is improvement, not instant success. The end of the season will tell us alot abot Marv, Jauron, the new systems, and the new players. I'm going to wait in anticipation instead of frustration because in the end those are the only two choices we have. So I agree with you on the improbable, but I will still hope for the possibility.
:respect:

[The_Philster]

Ah the classic Philster "lottery ticket" line you use 1,235,623 times a month. You really should get some new material. That line has more mold than a two month old piece of bread.and how do you think your assertion that you can see the future is viewed by the rest of us? Point is...unless you're rich from lotto winings, you're talking out your ass. You keep talking as if the final results of the season are already known. How do you know what's going to happen this season already when it hasn't been played? How far do your powers extend? There are no guarantees in life as far as the future and the same goes for football.




I guessed you missed the news that the team hasn't won a playoff game in 11 years and has one winning season in 6 years. Which part of those facts don't you get?I've had season tickets since 96 so I've been there through all of it so spare me the history lesson until you can prove that it means something significant towards the current situation.
The part where Ralph has made terrible decisions over the last 12 years (starting with the firing of Polian) or the part where we now have an 80 yr old first time GM and a castoff HC whose defensive "genius" hasn't once produced a top 10 defense? 1..that was over 12 years ago...go back to math class. 2...I dare you to do what Polian did that caused Ralph to fire him. You ain't got the balls because you know you'd get fired for it. Is it unfortunate that we lost Polian? Yes...he's one of the Top GMs in this league and has been since we brought him into the NFL. Problem is, no matter how good a person is at his job, if a guy's got a big mouth and is cursing out the boss's daughter...a vice-president of the organization, no less...he's gonna get fired. Wake up to reality. 3..as far as Marv goes, who would you have hired in his place? The last guy with experience worked out so well :rolleyes: Marv worked closely with 2 of the best and he still has Modrak to assist him. Sure that doesn't guarantee anything but it's something that other first-time GMs don't have. Anyway, it's not like all GMs start out with experience...they all have to start somewhere.
4...Jauron..we have a defensive coordinator to run the defense. Maybe Fewell, with Jauron as the head coach, will put together a #1 defense. We don't know. But if all you'll accept are coaches who have experience being super successful all the time, you'll be sorely disappointed...they already have jobs.


Keep on drinking the Kool Aid and saying "we don't know the future" and putting your head into the sand. You've been saying it for years on this board so why change now. It's been working out great for ya, right?at least I'll never look like a fool with http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/user_pics/11-1148235801.gif cause those are the only types who claim they can predict the future all the time.

[Mr. Cynical]

at least I'll never look like a fool with http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/user_pics/11-1148235801.gif cause those are the only types who claim they can predict the future all the time.

Well let's see...you have gone into every season since I've seen you on this board with a positive, "hey, ya never know" attitude. And since we've sucked since that time, I think its time to re-evaluate who is and who is not looking like a fool.

:homer:

[The_Philster]

Well let's see...you have gone into every season since I've seen you on this board with a positive, "hey, ya never know" attitude. And since we've sucked since that time, I think its time to re-evaluate who is and who is not looking like a fool.

:homer:
if I were making bold predictions, you may have a point...but I'm not...nor will I ever...at least until I get those psychic powers you seem to think you have

[Mr. Cynical]

Ralph? If he stays in Buffalo it is proof that he's not a greedy bastard like so many claim he is. If he were to move the team to LA (and don't think for a moment there haven't been offers) he would immediatley increase his revenue. Staying in Buffalo costs Ralph millions of dollars every year.

Oh, I have nothing against Ralph as a person. I agree that if he stays in B'lo that he's not a greedy bastard. In fact, I would even go on to say right now that he's not a greedy bastard. I do believe he "thinks" he is doing what he can to make a better team and to appease the fans.

But that's different than saying he "can" do the right things. Personally I think he is washed up and has been for a long time now. Nice guy, definitely a pioneer in his day, but that day is long gone. It's time for a change, I just don't know how that can happen and have the team stay in B'lo at the same time. But if this team is ever to have a real shot, I think it starts with a new owner IMO. He had a chance to redeem himself after TD, and by association allowing TD to make such horrid moves with GW, MM, DB, etc., etc. Some people will say a good owner lets his GM do his job but at some point the owner needs to step in when the ship is so clearly sinking.

By hiring Marv and by letting him hire Dick, I truly believe Ralph is just not capable to produce a winning organization. Hey, at his age, I give him credit for still being active. But he's not my dad or grandfather....he's the owner of my favorite football team and as such I have to look at it objectively. And that means by the numbers and by what has been produced, which means he just isn't cutting it.

[The_Philster]

Some people will say a good owner lets his GM do his job but at some point the owner needs to step in when the ship is so clearly sinking.
he did that by firing TD and you're still whining :rolleyes:

[Mr. Cynical]

if I were making bold predictions, you may have a point...but I'm not...nor will I ever...at least until I get those psychic powers you seem to think you have

Well some of us have balls and some don't. I am willing to stand by my "psychic powers" (otherwise known as a logical analysis of the reality of the situation) and will bet you real cash that this team will never win a playoff game under the current FO. We can set it up via a third party at anytime. Just let me know.

Or, you can sit back in your lounge chair and continue to play the "anything can happen" card. Because in that case, you are covered, right? If we stink, then you can say "I never said we'd be good". If we are good, then you can say, "See, I said anything could happen".

I'm sure you'll do the latter.

[The_Philster]

I don't gamble unless it's a sure thing and there are no sure things in football. Maybe the millions you won in the lotto will save you but I never won the lotto. Anyway, if you wanna continue to believe that the Bills will suck til the end of time, have at it. Just shows a lack of open-mindedness on your part :up:

and it's not a question of balls...it's a question of who has brains enough to know that nothing is guaranteed and who doesn't. It's also a question of who thinks he knows better than all the professionals and who's smart enough to know otherwise.

[Mr. Cynical]

he did that by firing TD and you're still whining :rolleyes:


How long did it take for him to do it? 5 years. Way too long given the magnitude of TD's mistakes.

And who did he replace him with? An 80 year old coach who had been out of football for 8 years, who tried several times to get back in and nobody wanted, and has no GM experience. I love Marv for what he did for the Bills and think he was a great coach (and person), but just like Ralph, the game has passed him by. You don't start a new career at 80, especially one that is as physically and mentally challenging as being a GM (or at least a successful GM). Ralph hired him for one reason - comfort and reconnecting to the past. Ralph is too old for new tricks and to try a new GM. Marv makes him feel comfortable which is what anyone his age would want. But comfort does not equal the right choice.

Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But the probability of him succeeding are most definitely against him. If he were even at legal retirement age I'd be alot more supportive of the decision. But not at 80. He will not be here long enough to right the ship and his choice of Dick already (in my opinion) showed me he doesn't have it.

[The_Philster]

sounds to me...going off of TD...you expect results overnight....it doesn't usually work that way. TD was the GM of a solid team before coming to Buffalo so I can't blame Ralph for giving him the benefot of the doubt at first.
As far as Marv, I'll admit it was a curious choice...but Modrak is going to be doing a lot as far as personnel calls and Marv worked closely with some good GMs when he was coach. One thing you can't call Marv is stupid...he probably picked up a few things.
As far as Jauron..there were 2 guys out there with head coaching experience if I recall correctly. Many wanted Sherman...I know I was in favor of him myself. Only 2 teams even interviewed the guy...are you saying you're smarter than every team that had an opening and didn't interview him? When did you interview him yourself or are you so astute that you know he was the guy without ever talking to him? Kind of a pompous attitude to have if you ask me. We had 2 head coaches in here with no head coaching experience and they both flopped...we got one with experience and some level of success and people still want to complain. There's no pleasing some people. The types who *****ed about allowing the Raiders to get a FG in our first AFC title win. :laughter:

[Mr. Cynical]

I don't gamble unless it's a sure thing and there are no sure things in football. Maybe the millions you won in the lotto will save you but I never won the lotto. Anyway, if you wanna continue to believe that the Bills will suck til the end of time, have at it. Just shows a lack of open-mindedness on your part :up:

and it's not a question of balls...it's a question of who has brains enough to know that nothing is guaranteed and who doesn't. It's also a question of who thinks he knows better than all the professionals and who's smart enough to know otherwise.

You sure do like to use the word lotto. I haven't counted but I think you've said it at least 4-5 times in just this thread alone.

So you only gamble on a sure thing? Hmmmm...and what would that be? I really want to know an example of a bet that you would take in that case, cause you know, anything can happen, right? The universe if full of unknowns so I wonder what your definition of a sure thing is....

And now we're back to your "the professionals know best" argument. Ok, explain perennially losing teams like the Lions who have won 1 playoff game in 53 years. They are professionals. Think they know best? You need to wake up and realize that just because they work in the field does not make them "know best". The proof? People that work in football get FIRED for NOT knowing the best. Or, they don't get fired because the owner is clueless.

And there you go putting words into my mouth. Show me exactly where I said that the Bills will suck until the end of time. I'll save you the time....you can't because I never did. I said under the current FO. Unless you want to tell me that the current FO will be here until the end of time, of course, and then you'd be right.

[The_Philster]

You sure do like to use the word lotto. I haven't counted but I think you've said it at least 4-5 times in just this thread alone.

So you only gamble on a sure thing? Hmmmm...and what would that be? I really want to know an example of a bet that you would take in that case, cause you know, anything can happen, right? The universe if full of unknowns so I wonder what your definition of a sure thing is....well I don't like to gamble period because there are no sure things in anything :laughter:


And now we're back to your "the professionals know best" argument. Ok, explain perennially losing teams like the Lions who have won 1 playoff game in 53 years. They are professionals. Think they know best? You need to wake up and realize that just because they work in the field does not make them "know best". The proof? People that work in football get FIRED for NOT knowing the best. Or, they don't get fired because the owner is clueless.actually...I didn't say all professionals know best..but I do think that a dozen or so teams all looking for a head coach know a little more about what they need in a head coach than someone who posts on a message board from work all day. That statement was in reference to people whining about getting Jauron over Sherman...the same people who continually ignore the fact that out of all those teams that needed a head caoch, only 2 were willing to interview him....it was like he's damaged goods or something.


And there you go putting words into my mouth. Show me exactly where I said that the Bills will suck until the end of time. I'll save you the time....you can't because I never did. I said under the current FO. Unless you want to tell me that the current FO will be here until the end of time, of course, and then you'd be right.I didn't say you did...but that's what impression you are giving. Is there going to be a time when the Bills won't suck, though? Tell me...seriously...what will make them improve finally? They've made plenty of changes in an effort to improve but I'm guessing it isn't enough. Do we need to get Ralph to hire you as GM and head coach to fix things?

[Mr. Cynical]

Tell me...seriously...what will make them improve finally? They've made plenty of changes in an effort to improve but I'm guessing it isn't enough. Do we need to get Ralph to hire you as GM and head coach to fix things?

I'll ignore your wiseass inflammatory remark at the end because the the first part was a legitmate question.

The simple answer - Ralph has to go.

He has shown he does not have the aptitude to choose the right staff nor to act in a timely manner when things are going south. I am not going to get into a debate on who the owner should be because I don't know. What I do know is that Ralph is no longer capable of doing the things necessary to field a championship team.

So if you are happy with a mediocre team, then by all means continue to hope that Ralph makes the right changes. Personally I will not be happy until we win an SB. But I'm not talking about this year or next by the way. If you look at my history, I have always pushed for patience when it *makes sense*, e.g., with JP, I have always said he needs time and experience before we can say he is bust or not.

But I do not have patience when there is enough history and experience behind the choices to be able to make educated, logical assessments. In that case you waste time hoping and saying anything can happen when the probability is that nothing will happen and you end up starting over....just like we did after GW, and just like we did after MM, and just like we did after Drew.

5 years wasted.

Sorry, but I don't want to waste any more years.

[Mr. Cynical]

No response?

[The_Philster]

I'll ignore your wiseass inflammatory remark at the end because the the first part was a legitmate question. last part was semi-legitimate as well...after all, you claim to know better about the coaching selection even though you didn't interview any of the candidates yourself


The simple answer - Ralph has to go.

He has shown he does not have the aptitude to choose the right staff nor to act in a timely manner when things are going south. I am not going to get into a debate on who the owner should be because I don't know. What I do know is that Ralph is no longer capable of doing the things necessary to field a championship team. one bad selection at President/GM and he's lost it, huh? :rofl:


So if you are happy with a mediocre team, then by all means continue to hope that Ralph makes the right changes. Personally I will not be happy until we win an SB. But I'm not talking about this year or next by the way. If you look at my history, I have always pushed for patience when it *makes sense*, e.g., with JP, I have always said he needs time and experience before we can say he is bust or not.

But I do not have patience when there is enough history and experience behind the choices to be able to make educated, logical assessments. In that case you waste time hoping and saying anything can happen when the probability is that nothing will happen and you end up starting over....just like we did after GW, and just like we did after MM, and just like we did after Drew.

5 years wasted.

Sorry, but I don't want to waste any more years.actually, I want some Titles in Buffalo but I'm not convinced Ralph has to kick the bucket for us to do so. I think your anger about TD has clouded your judgement and turned it into hatred for Ralph. JMO

[Mr. Cynical]

last part was semi-legitimate as well...after all, you claim to know better about the coaching selection even though you didn't interview any of the candidates yourself

First of all I never said "I know better". Once again, putting words into my mouth. Second, you seem to trust the opinion of anyone who works at OBD regardless of their past just because they are in the business. How's that been working out for you? Bottom line - having a job in the NFL does not make you good at it. Hence the reason people get fired.


one bad selection at President/GM and he's lost it, huh? :rofl:
actually, I want some Titles in Buffalo but I'm not convinced Ralph has to kick the bucket for us to do so. I think your anger about TD has clouded your judgement and turned it into hatred for Ralph. JMO

One bad selection? What has he done right since the glory years? Not to mention he let TD stick around for 5 years after choosing 2 putrid HCs/OCs in a row. Seriously, I want to know why you think Ralph still has it by citing examples.

[LtFinFan66]

Homer= rose colored glasses wearing homo dancing around thinking eveything is perfect

Realist= Bitter cynical bastards who hate everything

I dont want to be EITHER.

What I am is someone who expects less than perfect but hopes for the best.

Im a Rea-mer or a Hol-ist, hell ya, like the sounds of both.

Nuff said. Labels are for food products, my name is an unpronoucable symbol for "he who is hung like yak".

Cant we all just Bink Dreer and Fut the Shug Up?I am a homerist. A little of both who just enjoys the season and despises the off-season!

[The_Philster]

First of all I never said "I know better". Once again, putting words into my mouth. Fine...that sig and avatar claiming that we're sunk because of Jauron is just a figment of my imagination :rolleyes:
Second, you seem to trust the opinion of anyone who works at OBD regardless of their past just because they are in the business. How's that been working out for you? Bottom line - having a job in the NFL does not make you good at it. Hence the reason people get fired.try to follow along for once..I question pretty much every move and I take a wait-and-see approach rather than pull a chicken little and act like the sky is falling because the player or coach I wanted didn't come to Buffalo




One bad selection? What has he done right since the glory years? Not to mention he let TD stick around for 5 years after choosing 2 putrid HCs/OCs in a row. Seriously, I want to know why you think Ralph still has it by citing examples.kept some continuity at the position by making Butler the GM after he fired Polian..promoting from within..kept us going to Super Bowls for a little bit longer and then he canned him when it was apparent that Butler had no interest in re-signing. And while the GM abilities of Marv Levy may be in question, one thing bringing him in to replace Donahoe does is repair some of the public image of the Bills that Donahoe was destroying with stuff like taking away signs and telling the fans to "save the postage"

[finsrclowns]

I am a homerist.

So you go both ways? Well you are a fin fan...:rrich:

[Mr. Cynical]

Fine...that sig and avatar claiming that we're sunk because of Jauron is just a figment of my imagination :rolleyes:

Maybe this will help you understand the meaning of the word opinion:
o·pin·ion (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif-phttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifyhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn)
n. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

Try using the dictionary once in awhile. It won't bite you.


try to follow along for once..I question pretty much every move and I take a wait-and-see approach rather than pull a chicken little and act like the sky is falling because the player or coach I wanted didn't come to Buffalo

You dodged the statement. You have said in countless posts that "they know best" because "they did the interviews, work for the team, etc.,". Yes you question, but then you say "wait and see". Then you bash realists when they say "they made a mistake" by saying "so you know more than they do?" or "have you won lotto yet?".


kept some continuity at the position by making Butler the GM after he fired Polian..promoting from within..kept us going to Super Bowls for a little bit longer and then he canned him when it was apparent that Butler had no interest in re-signing. And while the GM abilities of Marv Levy may be in question, one thing bringing him in to replace Donahoe does is repair some of the public image of the Bills that Donahoe was destroying with stuff like taking away signs and telling the fans to "save the postage"

Butler had no interest because of the way Ralph was handling things. He also fired Wade, a winning coach for us, because of some stupid personnel issue. And hiring Marv was an emotional safety blanket for an elderly man who was unable to think outside the box.

[The_Philster]

He fired Wade for insubordination...try it with your boss and see how long you keep your job.....I dare you

[The JuiceBox Guy]

I love Ralph Wilson as a person and I think if it wasnt for him there wouldn't be a Buffalo Bills anymore.. but I do have to admit I wish his time as this team's owner would come to an end.

I appreciate everything he's done and in his younger years, even a decade ago he seemed sharp and on top of the game. But not so much anymore.

People can say they hate the kind of owners all they want, but I'd love to have a Robert Kraft running the Bills, provided they kept us in Buffalo of course.

[patmoran2006]

Business is business and Ralph Wilson owning the Bills is bad for business..

I just am grateful for all he's done and PRAY that when he either passes or sells the team it remains in capable hands.

Nothing against Wilson, but when your 87 your best days are long behind you.. maybe we should chip in and let the person who knows EVERYTHING on here (you know who) run the Bills, he knows more than Marv and Ralph anyway

[justasportsfan]

Business is business and Ralph Wilson owning the Bills is bad for business..

I just am grateful for all he's done and PRAY that when he either passes or sells the team it remains in capable hands.

Nothing against Wilson, but when your 87 your best days are long behind you.. maybe we should chip in and let the person who knows EVERYTHING on here (you know who) run the Bills, he knows more than Marv and Ralph anywayPuhlease, the bills would be in better hands with Bin Laden running it instead of Mr. Knowitall.

[Mr. Cynical]

He fired Wade for insubordination...try it with your boss and see how long you keep your job.....I dare you

And why was Wade being insubordinate? Might it be because Ralph shouldn't have put him in that situation in the first place? This isn't about what Wade did...it's what Ralph did to cause Wade to be insubordinate. My point still stands.

[Mr. Cynical]

Puhlease, the bills would be in better hands with Bin Laden running it instead of Mr. Knowitall.

Well, I guess if Mr. Knowitall isn't a personal attack, then justahomerfan must be okay too. :smile:

[The_Philster]

Might it be because Ralph shouldn't have put him in that situation in the first place? This isn't about what Wade did...it's what Ralph did to cause Wade to be insubordinate. My point still stands.<!-- / message -->:rofl: It wasn't Ralph's idea to hire that moron Ronnie Jones

[Devin]

:yawn: ..........this crap still going on....

[shelby]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/user_pics/9-1148073684.gif

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/user_pics/9-1148073705.gif

[Mr. Cynical]

Business is business and Ralph Wilson owning the Bills is bad for business..

I just am grateful for all he's done and PRAY that when he either passes or sells the team it remains in capable hands.

Nothing against Wilson, but when your 87 your best days are long behind you.. maybe we should chip in and let the person who knows EVERYTHING on here (you know who) run the Bills, he knows more than Marv and Ralph anyway

Too bad you ruined what otherwise was a very good post by taking a shot at me in the last sentence. Ah well.

And just to point something out, Ralph's record without Polian (post merger) is:

Before Polian: 88-153

After Polian: 93-99

Still think Ralph is doing such a bang up job?

[X-Era]

:huh:
OK, to you and Mr. Cynical:

It is every bit as useless an act to pester fellow Bills fans with an overstated sense of hopefulness, as it is an overstated sense of hopelessness.

Both are equal crimes against fellow Bills fans.

Furthermore,

I remain skeptical that any real tangible change can come from endless battles with fellow fans over any given topic.

That said, Im on Philsters side, because when all is said and done it just plain feels better to side with hope for a better tomorrow. You cynical people only spawn more hatred, anger, and anguish with your endless rants.

And if the rants are to be endless, why not conserve energy and smile rather than frown. Afterall, it takes less muscles.....or something.

[Mr. Cynical]

:rofl: It wasn't Ralph's idea to hire that moron Ronnie Jones

So you throw the baby out with the bathwater? Good logic there. And it's worked wonders since then as the team has been doing so well.

[X-Era]

So you throw the baby out with the bathwater? Good logic there. And it's worked wonders since then as the team has been doing so well.

See my response.

[Mr. Cynical]

That said, Im on Philsters side, because when all is said and done it just plain feels better to side with hope for a better tomorrow. You cynical people only spawn more hatred, anger, and anguish with your endless rants.

No, the hatred, anger and anguish come when homers attack us. Same crap with Drew and TD. We'd say they sucked (which turned out to be correct), and they would say we are "know it alls" or "negative" or "not true fans".

All of which are completely untrue.

I admit I do get tired of having to defend myself as being a fan (much like Op did yesterday) just because I don't blindy "trust" the FO to make the right decisions anymore. Why should I? Look what they have produced in the last 6 years. You have to earn my trust. If we start winning, then I'll start trusting.

[The_Philster]

I don't blindy "trust" the FO to make the right decisions anymore. You trying to say the rest of us do blindly trust the front office? I hope not because that would show a serious lack of reading ability on your part

[Mr. Cynical]

You trying to say the rest of us do blindly trust the front office? I hope not because that would show a serious lack of reading ability on your part

Are you trying to say that the rest of us think that we always know better than the FO?

Quid pro quo.

[X-Era]

No, the hatred, anger and anguish come when homers attack us. Same crap with Drew and TD. We'd say they sucked (which turned out to be correct), and they would say we are "know it alls" or "negative" or "not true fans".

All of which are completely untrue.

I admit I do get tired of having to defend myself as being a fan (much like Op did yesterday) just because I don't blindy "trust" the FO to make the right decisions anymore. Why should I? Look what they have produced in the last 6 years. You have to earn my trust. If we start winning, then I'll start trusting.

So, are you claiming that at NO time you either firmly stood behind or firmly stood against the signing of Drew? Because you would be a hypocrite if you did.

And, if in fact you have never been firmly behind ANY move in the past 6 years, that has failed (qualified by your utter distaste for EVRYTHING about the team at this point), then you still remain someone who can never be happy. And, therefore, someone who is endlessly *****ing.

Im anticipating that you will save face and respond with a move you were behind but in fact you were completely WRONG about. That would at least tell me that you are capable of making mistakes, or mistrusting. A HUMAN trait. But, if you claim to have all the answers, "send no response, send no response at all".

[The_Philster]

Are you trying to say that the rest of us think that we always know better than the FO?

Quid pro quo.
nice way to dodge the question...and for the record, I can truly think of 2 posters who seem to think they know everything..one was given a week's vacation...the other has a sig that proclaims that Jauron's hiring will doom the Bills' future in Buffalo. Now, whether Jauron turns out to be a good coach or a bad one, don't you think that's a little bit overdramatic? :shakeno:

[Mr. Cynical]

So, are you claiming that at NO time you either firmly stood behind or firmly stood against the signing of Drew? Because you would be a hypocrite if you did.

And, if in fact you have never been firmly behind ANY move in the past 6 years, that has failed (qualified by your utter distaste for EVRYTHING about the team at this point), then you still remain someone who can never be happy. And, therefore, someone who is endlessly *****ing.

Im anticipating that you will save face and respond with a move you were behind but in fact you were completely WRONG about. That would at least tell me that you are capable of making mistakes, or mistrusting. A HUMAN trait. But, if you claim to have all the answers, "send no response, send no response at all".

I shouldn't respond to this because you are being inflammatory, accusatory and condescending without any provocation on my part.

However, in the interest of setting the record straight for those who can't remember or are new here, I was firmly behind the signing of Drew. If you want to look it up, be my guest. After he started falling apart in '03, and after I did my homework (I was blinded like many by the media on how good he was so I never did the research), I realized I should not have been so happy we signed him. Unlike the homers, I was able to see how putrid he was and called for him to get the axe.

As for TD, I was never happy about him because I did do the homework and discovered TD was not the man reponsible for the Steelers. As it is clearly evident by their continued success and SB win, it was Cowher all along.

Hope that answers your question. It will be the last one I answer of yours unless you lose the attitude.

[Mr. Cynical]

nice way to dodge the question...and for the record, I can truly think of 2 posters who seem to think they know everything..one was given a week's vacation...the other has a sig that proclaims that Jauron's hiring will doom the Bills' future in Buffalo. Now, whether Jauron turns out to be a good coach or a bad one, don't you think that's a little bit overdramatic? :shakeno:

And I can think of one poster in particular who continues to say the "FO knows best" because "they do the interviews and are in the NFL". Don't you think that's the very definition of blind trust?

And as for the OPINION in my sig, I thought I covered that already. Here it is again since it seems I need to state things a few times before they sink in to your head:

o·pin·ion (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif-phttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifyhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn)
n. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

[The_Philster]

And I can think of one poster in particular who continues to say the "FO knows best" because "they do the interviews and are in the NFL". Don't you think that's the very definition of blind trust?

And as for the OPINION in my sig, I thought I covered that already. Here it is again since it seems I need to state things a few times before they sink in to your head:

o·pin·ion (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif-phttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifyhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn)
n. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.
putting words in my mouth and ignoring yet another question. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Cynical]

putting words in my mouth and ignoring yet another question. :rolleyes:

Man, you need serious reading comp classes. I'm not kidding. I really don't know how much simpler I can make it.

My sig is an O-P-I-N-I-O-N. I did not say "I know it all". Got it?

No, I don't think I'm being melodramatic. My OPINION (look at my prior post in case you forgot what that means again) is that this team will tank under Dick, Marv will be too old to find another HC, Ralph will either have passed or retired, and the new owner will not want to try to raise a losing team from the ashes in a small market like Buffalo.

[X-Era]

I shouldn't respond to this because you are being inflammatory, accusatory and condescending without any provocation on my part.

However, in the interest of setting the record straight for those who can't remember or are new here, I was firmly behind the signing of Drew. If you want to look it up, be my guest. After he started falling apart in '03, and after I did my homework (I was blinded like many by the media on how good he was so I never did the research), I realized I should not have been so happy we signed him. Unlike the homers, I was able to see how putrid he was and called for him to get the axe.

As for TD, I was never happy about him because I did do the homework and discovered TD was not the man reponsible for the Steelers. As it is clearly evident by their continued success and SB win, it was Cowher all along.

Hope that answers your question. It will be the last one I answer of yours unless you lose the attitude.

Number 1) There is ZERO attitude. Only response to someone who would post and counter post to this degree on ANY topic. Lose the bravado, its unbecoming, period.

Number 2) Your admittance to backing both Drew and TD is noted. For that matter, there is NO purpose is questioning a hope in someone knew. What good does it serve to so fervently blast away at people who support the new regime? Who was Mike Martz before he was Mike Martz. Bad exzample, who was Homgren before he was Holmgren? Dont even get me going on young QB's. Look at Eli's first year, how aboput Palmer who couldnt even beat out Kitna for years on end? How about Brady who couldnt beat out Bledsoe whne he hadnt done much before the injury?

Point is there are TONS of CHANGES that happen every year.

It is every bit as possible that Losman becomes last years Eli or even Palmer as it is that Losman becomes last years Alex Smith.

Facts are fact, MANY MANY teams end up doing stuff when you never thought they would. the BEARS? are you kidding?

Seriously, my problem with being constantly cynical is that ity leaves no room for hope or faith. And if both of those are gone, why bother "rooting" for anything.

On the flip side, strapping on rose colored glasses and drinking Kool Aid doesnt allow for any logical or critical thought process. Everything is just fine, everything will be OK.

[The_Philster]

Man, you need serious reading comp classes. I'm not kidding. I really don't know how much simpler I can make it.

My sig is an O-P-I-N-I-O-N. :yap: You really don't need to channel ICE
I did not say "I know it all". Got it?Never said you did...but you do come across to many of us like you think you do at times...whether you mean to or not


No, I don't think I'm being melodramatic. :bf1: You answered the question...I really don't understand what was so hard about that
My OPINION (look at my prior post in case you forgot what that means again) is that this team will tank under Dick, Marv will be too old to find another HC, Ralph will either have passed or retired, and the new owner will not want to try to raise a losing team from the ashes in a small market like Buffalo. I hope you're wrong and you may call me a homer for thinking this, but I believe you are wrong on this...call it a gut feeling, call it something I feel I have to believe because the idea of losing the Bills is pretty rotten to think about...but I do


And as for putting words into your mouth, which ones? Because do you really want me to dig up your old posts?You keep insinuating that I blindly have faith in everything the front office does? That would be a bold-faced lie that shows a lack of reading ability. For example, I too preferred Sherman over Jauron yet Sherman got exactly two interviews for head coach in an offseason with plenty of openings. That raises red flags for me. Maybe you think all those teams were idiotic for not even looking at him..1 or 2 teams..I can understand...but this was more than 1 or 2 teams.

[Mr. Cynical]

Never said you did...but you do come across to many of us like you think you do at times...whether you mean to or not.

:liar:

"after all, you claim to know better about the coaching selection even though you didn't interview any of the candidates yourself"<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=1559938#post1559938



You keep insinuating that I blindly have faith in everything the front office does? That would be a bold-faced lie that shows a lack of reading ability. For example, I too preferred Sherman over Jauron yet Sherman got exactly two interviews for head coach in an offseason with plenty of openings. That raises red flags for me. Maybe you think all those teams were idiotic for not even looking at him..1 or 2 teams..I can understand...but this was more than 1 or 2 teams.

Tell me why you think this team is going in the right direction. Don't say "we'll see" or "we don't know". That's an easy out and of course we won't "know" until then. But I'm asking you why you THINK Ralph and the FO have been doing the right things at this point in time.

[The_Philster]

:liar:

"after all, you claim to know better about the coaching selection even though you didn't interview any of the candidates yourself"<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=1559938#post1559938

Fair enough..you caught me failing to word it properly...but you certainly seem to think you know better



Tell me why you think this team is going in the right direction. Don't say "we'll see" or "we don't know". That's an easy out and of course we won't "know" until then. But I'm asking you why you THINK Ralph and the FO have been doing the right things at this point in time.Brought in a GM who worked pretty closely with a great GM
Brought in a head coach who's had some success in the past
Players brought in like Whitner, McCargo, Triplett who seem to be made for the defensive schemes

just to name a few

[X-Era]

:liar:

"after all, you claim to know better about the coaching selection even though you didn't interview any of the candidates yourself"<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=1559938#post1559938




Tell me why you think this team is going in the right direction. Don't say "we'll see" or "we don't know". That's an easy out and of course we won't "know" until then. But I'm asking you why you THINK Ralph and the FO have been doing the right things at this point in time.

I notice that you have not responded. To be even minded, Id like to respond to your comment on how we are headed in the right direction.

1) Dick Jauron is a head coach with previous head coaching experience. That is an UPGRADE to both Mularkey and Williams, neither of which had previous HC experience. The last HC with prior HC exp. was Wade Phillips who DID in fact take the team to the playoffs. By no means am I implying that Jauron will, but the data is on our side. Its reason for hope. Furthermore, a HC with prior exp. wont have to bow down to vets thinking only about winning now at any expense, or padding their own stats. Could still happen, but with a pedigree, you can expect a HC on the fence on some player, scheme, or issue will be much more apt to go on HIS OWN plan rather than being pushed into making a decision because of a viewed lack of exp.

2) Our o-line is better, period. Bennie the human penalty is gone, Reyes is a proven road grader who at the very least wont give up critical yards in the form of penalties. Trey Teague is gone, and thats not much of a loss either, he was FAR from being dominant at C, it wasnt his natural spot. Fowler will win the job and is a bonafide center with starts behind him. He also was highly touted in college. Peters will only continue to get better, Gandy will only continue to get worse, thats a push. I expect Villarial to play the same or be pushed aside by Preston. If anything, Preston presses Villarial to play a bit better. Overall, we are better. Thats reason for hope.

3) Whether Holcomb or Losman starts, we WONT be worse than last year. Holcomb will slowly continue to get worse, but the better line may allow him to play at an even level as last year. Losman will be better, at the bottom, the only way is up. Losmans redirected approach and competition will only help his cause, the talent is already there. He only needs to develop his decision making and with a new simpler scheme using more targets, you should expect more people to be open and more completions. Nall wont win the job, he doesnt have either Lsomans arm or Holcomb experience he losses flat out. Overall, we can either be the same or better than last year, more reason for hope.

4) Our defense was pitiful last year, again when your at the bottom the only way is up. Or, we stay the same but we wont be worse.

5) ST, with the same coach and adding in Parrish who isnt hurt now, should make us the same or better.

Now for some realism. The question is do we stay the same overall or are we better and if we are, how much? Well, I wont claim this team is a playoff team, I dont see that. But, 6 and 10 - 8 and 8. I can see that. And BOTH would be better than last year.

Sorry, but the sky isnt falling, in fact its being put back in place, maybe a bit slower than many impatient fans can handle.

[Mr. Cynical]

Fair enough..you caught me failing to word it properly...but you certainly seem to think you know better

Fair enough...


Brought in a GM who worked pretty closely with a great GMBrought in a head coach who's had some success in the past
Players brought in like Whitner, McCargo, Triplett who seem to be made for the defensive schemes

just to name a few

Ok, this I can work with....

Agreed, Levy worked with one of the greats in Polian. But my contention is that he is too old to start a new career. He is 80 years old, and no matter how many people say he is a "young 80", he is still 80. It will take him time to learn the job, and he just doesn't have that kind of time. The fact that he wanted to still be coach until Ralph (in one of his good moves) stuffed that idea tells me this was Marv's "second choice" for a job in the NFL. And no other teams wanted Marv in any capacity for 8 years even though he kept trying.

So IMO, the only reason Marv got the position is because of Ralph's need to have someone with whom he is "comfortable" and because of Ralph's clouded judgement in a time of dire crisis.

I totally disagree with you on Dick (no surprise there I'm sure). He had 1 winning season out of 6. And if you look at the schedule for that year it was a creampuff. Yes, I know there were some injury problems in his last year there but if you read most of the blogs on him, there weren't too many supporters of him as HC. And as a DC (or HC), I've said it many a time that he never produced a top 10 defense.

So I fail to see how Dick's past makes for a bright future.

As for the picks, I think as players they have a good chance of being good. I didn't like where they were picked, and I didn't like the positions given our needs, but I'm not going to neg on them at this point. I think the probability is there for them to produce.

To sum up, I'm not looking for an instant turnaround. If you read my posts from awhile ago, I promoted patience with JP and said I didn't care what the record was as long as the foundation for a solid team was being built. But with Marv and Dick, I truly believe given everything I stated above that this team will not succeed in the short term, which will then mean a total overhaul again in 3 years due to the fact that a new GM will likely come in, which in turn will bring in a new HC. Not to mention a new owner is likely to come around as well. Ralph, regardless of whether you (not you personally) want him around, cannot realistically continue in his present role at 90 something.

So that's why I'm so cynical right now. Unless this team wins now (1-3 years), we're looking at a total rebuild in 3 years, which then means we'll have a chance to be competitive in maybe 5 years from now. And the chances of winning now are slim to none given we have alot of holes to fill (which normally would be fine if our FO wasn't so old).

[finsrclowns]

So that's why I'm so cynical right now.

:lmao:

[John Doe]

Fair enough...



Ok, this I can work with....

Agreed, Levy worked with one of the greats in Polian. But my contention is that he is too old to start a new career. He is 80 years old, and no matter how many people say he is a "young 80", he is still 80. It will take him time to learn the job, and he just doesn't have that kind of time. The fact that he wanted to still be coach until Ralph (in one of his good moves) stuffed that idea tells me this was Marv's "second choice" for a job in the NFL. And no other teams wanted Marv in any capacity for 8 years even though he kept trying.

So IMO, the only reason Marv got the position is because of Ralph's need to have someone with whom he is "comfortable" and because of Ralph's clouded judgement in a time of dire crisis.

I totally disagree with you on Dick (no surprise there I'm sure). He had 1 winning season out of 6. And if you look at the schedule for that year it was a creampuff. Yes, I know there were some injury problems in his last year there but if you read most of the blogs on him, there weren't too many supporters of him as HC. And as a DC (or HC), I've said it many a time that he never produced a top 10 defense.

So I fail to see how Dick's past makes for a bright future.

As for the picks, I think as players they have a good chance of being good. I didn't like where they were picked, and I didn't like the positions given our needs, but I'm not going to neg on them at this point. I think the probability is there for them to produce.

To sum up, I'm not looking for an instant turnaround. If you read my posts from awhile ago, I promoted patience with JP and said I didn't care what the record was as long as the foundation for a solid team was being built. But with Marv and Dick, I truly believe given everything I stated above that this team will not succeed in the short term, which will then mean a total overhaul again in 3 years due to the fact that a new GM will likely come in, which in turn will bring in a new HC. Not to mention a new owner is likely to come around as well. Ralph, regardless of whether you (not you personally) want him around, cannot realistically continue in his present role at 90 something.

So that's why I'm so cynical right now. Unless this team wins now (1-3 years), we're looking at a total rebuild in 3 years, which then means we'll have a chance to be competitive in maybe 5 years from now. And the chances of winning now are slim to none given we have alot of holes to fill (which normally would be fine if our FO wasn't so old).

So, in essence you are saying that the Bills can't win because Marv Levy is old.

[Mr. Cynical]

So, in essence you are saying that the Bills can't win because Marv Levy is old.

I'm not going to restate my post. That is not the only reason, it is a part of the reason.

[John Doe]

I'm not going to restate my post. That is not the only reason, it is a part of the reason.

I read your post again. That really is the crux of your argument.

Marv is too old.

Marv hired the wrong head coach.

Marv did not draft wisely (picked players too high).

Marv's drastic mistakes due to age (hiring Jauron) will cripple the team for the next five years.

[Mr. Cynical]

I read your post again. That really is the crux of your argument.

Marv is too old.

Marv hired the wrong head coach.

Marv did not draft wisely (picked players too high).

Marv's drastic mistakes due to age (hiring Jauron) will cripple the team for the next five years.

Not in the context you are putting it into. I didn't say he hired the wrong head coach/drafted poorly because of his age. I'm not insinuating he is senile. Inexperienced as a GM, yes.

I don't know what made him pick Dick, other than the Ivy League connection or something. But I can see nothing in Dick's past would make him a good hire.

The players he drafted aren't likely to bust - who knows - but there aren't many "experts" who would say he didn't reach. (if you have zero respect for the experts, that's fine) I also felt these positions were not the most critical either, but again that's just my opinion.

In any case, Marv's age is an issue for this reason....he is starting a new career at 80, a career that is very demanding and burns out even young men. The likelihood of him "getting it" and producing at a high level in 1-2 years is very small. So my problem with him is that by the time he is at that level, he will be 84 or so. And that, IMHO, is too old to be effective, again given the demands of the role.

So, in effect, unless we "win now" (1-3 years), it is my opinion that he will retire and we'll have to go through this all over again. But....for this team to win now, it will take a miracle IMO, given how poor it has been and seems to still be. That's why I think we are in a major pothole. We don't have an FO that has the longevity to make it work if it doesn't happen in 1-3 years.

So the conclusion you drew from my post - that he is too old and has made mistakes because of the effects of his age - is not what I meant.

[John Doe]

Not in the context you are putting it into. I didn't say he hired the wrong head coach/drafted poorly because of his age. I'm not insinuating he is senile. Inexperienced as a GM, yes.

I don't know what made him pick Dick, other than the Ivy League connection or something. But I can see nothing in Dick's past would make him a good hire.

The players he drafted aren't likely to bust - who knows - but there aren't many "experts" who would say he didn't reach. (if you have zero respect for the experts, that's fine) I also felt these positions were not the most critical either, but again that's just my opinion.

In any case, Marv's age is an issue for this reason....he is starting a new career at 80, a career that is very demanding and burns out even young men. The likelihood of him "getting it" and producing at a high level in 1-2 years is very small. So my problem with him is that by the time he is at that level, he will be 84 or so. And that, IMHO, is too old to be effective, again given the demands of the role.

So, in effect, unless we "win now" (1-3 years), it is my opinion that he will retire and we'll have to go through this all over again. But....for this team to win now, it will take a miracle IMO, given how poor it has been and seems to still be. That's why I think we are in a major pothole. We don't have an FO that has the longevity to make it work if it doesn't happen in 1-3 years.

So the conclusion you drew from my post - that he is too old and has made mistakes because of the effects of his age - is not what I meant.

OK – You feel that Marv is definitely not senile. Let’s accept that as a given. This raises more questions than it answers. I would like you to further clarify exactly what you did mean.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
It seems to me that the only explanation of Levy’s bad decisions (your implication) must be that he is either pretty stupid or he does not know as much about football as the average fan does. After all, in you opinion Marv has hired an incompetent head coach after examining his coaching history, watching him in action, and extensively interviewing him. It follows then that he must be pretty dumb or know much about the game.
<o:p></o:p>
Is that correct in your opinion?
<o:p></o:p>
It then also follows that Marv’s “reaching” in the draft and not drafting the obvious needs of the team is another indication that he is pretty stupid and/or does not know football.
<o:p></o:p>
Is that correct in your opinion?
<o:p></o:p>
Is any draft pick that goes against the grain of a lot of the “draftniks” automatically a bad thing in your opinion? Do you feel that Mike Williams was a good draft pick?Is there any weight to be placed on the following criteria: the player selected is highly regarded, fills a need, fits the system, has a lot of positive intangeables, and may turn out to be highly productive?
<o:p></o:p>
I would like to know exactly what the qualifications for a GM in the NFL are and why do you feel that Marv is not qualified given his resume in the NFL? (Let’s discount the implication that he is stupid and/or does not know football for the moment).
<o:p></o:p>
It seems that you feel that there is a steep “learning curve” for a new GM such as Marv. You certainly feel confident in your analysis of the mistakes that he has already made. Why is it that the average fan can immediately and correctly analyze these difficult football decisions, but a guy with 40 years of high level experience cannot?
<o:p></o:p>
Who are these “younger men” who have been burned out by the NFL GM job? Off the top of my head, I can’t really think of any NFL GMs that have resigned with any inference they could not handle the rigors of the job – most are fired. Maybe you can help me here and give me a few examples.
<o:p></o:p>
You are certainly entitled to your opinion that it would take a “miracle” for the Bills to start winning now. Do you actually believe in miracles – (supernatural phenomena)? There have been instances of teams doing a complete and unexpected turnaround in a short period of time in the NFL. I am not using that as a predictive of the upcoming Bills season, I just want to know if these turnarounds were, in your opinion, the result of divine intervention.
<o:p></o:p>
What have you gathered from the organized team activities this offseason that indicates that the Bills still seem to be “poor?”

If past performance is a reliable predictive of the future as you infer, then how is it possible for teams to improve?

[Mr. Cynical]

OK – You feel that Marv is definitely not senile. Let’s accept that as a given. This raises more questions than it answers. I would like you to further clarify exactly what you did mean.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
It seems to me that the only explanation of Levy’s bad decisions (your implication) must be that he is either pretty stupid or he does not know as much about football as the average fan does. After all, in you opinion Marv has hired an incompetent head coach after examining his coaching history, watching him in action, and extensively interviewing him. It follows then that he must be pretty dumb or know much about the game.
<o:p></o:p>
Is that correct in your opinion?
<o:p></o:p>
It then also follows that Marv’s “reaching” in the draft and not drafting the obvious needs of the team is another indication that he is pretty stupid and/or does not know football.
<o:p></o:p>
Is that correct in your opinion?
<o:p></o:p>
Is any draft pick that goes against the grain of a lot of the “draftniks” automatically a bad thing in your opinion? Do you feel that Mike Williams was a good draft pick?Is there any weight to be placed on the following criteria: the player selected is highly regarded, fills a need, fits the system, has a lot of positive intangeables, and may turn out to be highly productive?
<o:p></o:p>
I would like to know exactly what the qualifications for a GM in the NFL are and why do you feel that Marv is not qualified given his resume in the NFL? (Let’s discount the implication that he is stupid and/or does not know football for the moment).
<o:p></o:p>
It seems that you feel that there is a steep “learning curve” for a new GM such as Marv. You certainly feel confident in your analysis of the mistakes that he has already made. Why is it that the average fan can immediately and correctly analyze these difficult football decisions, but a guy with 40 years of high level experience cannot?
<o:p></o:p>
Who are these “younger men” who have been burned out by the NFL GM job? Off the top of my head, I can’t really think of any NFL GMs that have resigned with any inference they could not handle the rigors of the job – most are fired. Maybe you can help me here and give me a few examples.
<o:p></o:p>
You are certainly entitled to your opinion that it would take a “miracle” for the Bills to start winning now. Do you actually believe in miracles – (supernatural phenomena)? There have been instances of teams doing a complete and unexpected turnaround in a short period of time in the NFL. I am not using that as a predictive of the upcoming Bills season, I just want to know if these turnarounds were, in your opinion, the result of divine intervention.
<o:p></o:p>
What have you gathered from the organized team activities this offseason that indicates that the Bills still seem to be “poor?”

If past performance is a reliable predictive of the future as you infer, then how is it possible for teams to improve?


I really don't know what else I can say to further clarify my post. I tried twice already and I just don't have another way to state it. I'm not dissing you or being sarcastic - I'm being honest.

[John Doe]

I really don't know what else I can say to further clarify my post. I tried twice already and I just don't have another way to state it. I'm not dissing you or being sarcastic - I'm being honest.

You can further clarify your post by answering the questions that I have posed. Several of them touch on points that have not been fully developed.

I don't understand why you are reluctant to do so.

I tried to make them as direct as possible.

For example, you made the following statement regarding Levy:


...he is starting a new career at 80, a career that is very demanding and burns out even young men.

I asked for a few examples of these "burned out" young NFL GMs. If you were to supply a few instances, I would know of whom you are referring to and you would buttress your argument at the same time. Of course, by the same token, if you have no concrete examples, then you would have no point.

Then there is the question of Marv's learning curve and him "getting it" in time for him to be an effective GM. If you are able to determine that Marv is not "getting it" then it seems to me that you have "gotten it" (whatever "it" is). If the job is that easy that an average fan can "get it" then why can't Marv "get it" as well?

There really are a lot of important unanswered questions here, and since this topic is the crux of your belief system that the Bills are doomed, it deserves further exploration.

[John Doe]

In any case, Marv's age is an issue for this reason....he is starting a new career at 80, a career that is very demanding and burns out even young men. The likelihood of him "getting it" and producing at a high level in 1-2 years is very small. So my problem with him is that by the time he is at that level, he will be 84 or so. And that, IMHO, is too old to be effective, again given the demands of the role.


What ever happened to Mr. Cynical and his list of burned out young GMs?