Losman lovers, answer me this.

[LtBillsFan66]

Why didn't JP play well last season?

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

he was a rookie with a crappy line and a stupid coach who yanked him around like a yo yo

[LtBillsFan66]

1) Wasn't a rookie.
2) Holcomb had the same line.
3) Holcomb had the same coach.

Anyone else?

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

He WAS a first year starter
Holcombe is a 10 year veteran

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

holcombe did no better.

[Nighthawk]

1) Wasn't a rookie.
2) Holcomb had the same line.
3) Holcomb had the same coach.

Anyone else?

Holcomb didn't do any better...they still lost. Holcomb's completion percentage is higher because he doesn't throw a pass over 5 yards. I know that is the only stat that Holcomb backers like to throw around, but they don't mention the little fact that noodle arm can't throw over 5 yards.

[LtBillsFan66]

holcombe did no better.
Sure he did.

[shelby]

Crappy O line and bad decision making coupled with horrendous play calling.

[Crisis]

Why didn't JP play well last season?

Why does Holcomb suck?

[LtBillsFan66]

Why does Holcomb suck?
Why can't JP beat out Holcomb?

[Michael82]

holcombe did no better.
That's the best answer I have heard! :clap:

[Michael82]

Holcomb didn't do any better...they still lost. Holcomb's completion percentage is higher because he doesn't throw a pass over 5 yards. I know that is the only stat that Holcomb backers like to throw around, but they don't mention the little fact that noodle arm can't throw over 5 yards.
Good post! :bf1:

[theanswer74]

Im not a Holcomb fan and I have no faith JP has anything besides a strong arm, but please shut up about Holcombs below average arm.

He gets the ball in the players hands. Thats all I ask. He had the longest pass play of the season because he lets the WR's do the work.

I dont think Holcomb takes us anywhere except for a few more wins, but its not because of his arm. I think he is fragile.

People need to calm down. We dont have a QB on this roster. JP does not have the history of an ElI Manning, Roethlisberger, Palmer, so can we STOP comparing him to them.

Our starting QB in 2 years isnt even on the roster.

[Michael82]

Im not a Holcomb fan and I have no faith JP has anything besides a strong arm, but please shut up about Holcombs below average arm.

He gets the ball in the players hands. Thats all I ask. He had the longest pass play of the season because he lets the WR's do the work.

I dont think Holcomb takes us anywhere except for a few more wins, but its not because of his arm. I think he is fragile.

People need to calm down. We dont have a QB on this roster. JP does not have the history of an ElI Manning, Roethlisberger, Palmer, so can we STOP comparing him to them.

Our starting QB in 2 years isnt even on the roster.
apparently you haven't been to camp. What was left of his arm last year has gone away now. His passes look like **** and are very flat and he doesn't even try going long now. I heard he has a nickname among the media and it definitely makes sense.... "Captain Checkoff"

[LtBillsFan66]

apparently you haven't been to camp. What was left of his arm last year has gone away now. His passes look like **** and are very flat and he doesn't even try going long now. I heard he has a nickname among the media and it definitely makes sense.... "Captain Checkoff"
Wow, that sucks. It suck more that JP can't easily beat him out.

[ublinkwescore]

I'm getting tired of beating this drum into the ground...

When Losman was playing, for the most part, the line looked like crap.

When the line did look good, Losman looked good - see the second Dolphins game, the Chiefs game, the Texans game, and I believe there was one other, I can't remember.

That being said, if you guys honestly think that Holcombe can take us anywhere, you're truly naive. We AREN'T going anywhere this year, we might as well give it to JP to let him develop. You can't deny there have been flashes - once he develops the consistency, he'll be a probowler.

[Nighthawk]

Im not a Holcomb fan and I have no faith JP has anything besides a strong arm, but please shut up about Holcombs below average arm.

He gets the ball in the players hands. Thats all I ask. He had the longest pass play of the season because he lets the WR's do the work.

I dont think Holcomb takes us anywhere except for a few more wins, but its not because of his arm. I think he is fragile.

People need to calm down. We dont have a QB on this roster. JP does not have the history of an ElI Manning, Roethlisberger, Palmer, so can we STOP comparing him to them.

Our starting QB in 2 years isnt even on the roster.

Umm, thanks...I'll be sure to do that and thanks for enlightening us!

[Michael82]

I'm getting tired of beating this drum into the ground...

When Losman was playing, for the most part, the line looked like crap.

When the line did look good, Losman looked good - see the second Dolphins game, the Chiefs game, the Texans game, and I believe there was one other, I can't remember.

That being said, if you guys honestly think that Holcombe can take us anywhere, you're truly naive. We AREN'T going anywhere this year, we might as well give it to JP to let him develop. You can't deny there have been flashes - once he develops the consistency, he'll be a probowler.
Excellent post!!! :bf1: :bf1: :bf1:

[shelby]

The one time i feel the need to give ublink some :posrep: and i can't.
:madcurse:

Great post brother.

[YardRat]

Holcomb didn't do any better...they still lost. Holcomb's completion percentage is higher because he doesn't throw a pass over 5 yards. I know that is the only stat that Holcomb backers like to throw around, but they don't mention the little fact that noodle arm can't throw over 5 yards.

Toss JP's and Holcomb's stats in the garbage, and don't bother comparing the two's numbers.

The offense scored more points with Holcomb at QB.
The defense allowed less points with Holcomb at QB.
McGahee gained more yards with Holcomb at QB.

Face it...the team performed better with Holcomb at QB. Does that mean Holcomb should be the starter this year? No. But JP needs to prove he can help the team produce similar/better results than Holcomb in order to secure the job for this season.

This is his third year. Only starting half of a season is no longer an excuse. I don't care if he'd never set foot on on the field in a regular season game before, he's a first round draft pick. Time to put up or shut up.

[theanswer74]

apparently you haven't been to camp. What was left of his arm last year has gone away now. His passes look like **** and are very flat and he doesn't even try going long now. I heard he has a nickname among the media and it definitely makes sense.... "Captain Checkoff"

Who cares if he checks off? Thats his game. He is going to take the safe plays, he knows his weakness.

JP Losman lacks the intincts to play QB in the NFL.


We can sit here and talk about Holcomb all we want, but JP is not the answer. We can sit here and be like Baltimore and give Losman 3 years, but its not hard to see that the guy doesnt have it. Boller looks the same now as he did in year 1 and year 2. Maybe his reads got a bit better, but he still doesnt know how to be a QB.

He will get another shot, even if Holcomb starts. Holcomb will go down with an injury sometime and Losman will be given the rock. Just because he wont start the season doesnt mean he wont get a chance.

Marv said it best, if you have a QB competition, that means you dont have a QB. If you believe in a kid you dont give him competiton. I dont believe in JP, so I would not have given him the job either.

Doesnt mean I want Holcomb to play. It just means I dont care who plays because IMO, our QB of the future is not even on the roster.

[jmb1099]

Sure he did.
good argument...

[Nighthawk]

good argument...

When he has no argument, then it is pretty tough argue a point.

[Nighthawk]

Who cares if he checks off? Thats his game. He is going to take the safe plays, he knows his weakness.

JP Losman lacks the intincts to play QB in the NFL.


We can sit here and talk about Holcomb all we want, but JP is not the answer. We can sit here and be like Baltimore and give Losman 3 years, but its not hard to see that the guy doesnt have it. Boller looks the same now as he did in year 1 and year 2. Maybe his reads got a bit better, but he still doesnt know how to be a QB.

He will get another shot, even if Holcomb starts. Holcomb will go down with an injury sometime and Losman will be given the rock. Just because he wont start the season doesnt mean he wont get a chance.

Marv said it best, if you have a QB competition, that means you dont have a QB. If you believe in a kid you dont give him competiton. I dont believe in JP, so I would not have given him the job either.

Doesnt mean I want Holcomb to play. It just means I dont care who plays because IMO, our QB of the future is not even on the roster.

If that's his game, then I don't want it. It doesn't work...and it doesn't win in the NFL.

[theanswer74]

If that's his game, then I don't want it. It doesn't work...and it doesn't win in the NFL.

It works just fine.

What did everyone say about Brady the 1st year he won the Superbowl?? Weak arm, only dumps the ball off.

Well, now Brady has seperated himself, but he started out just throwing short little passes and letting his teammates make plays.

Losman should take a page from that. Let his WR's make plays and gradually expand your game down field.

Now Holcomb CANT expand his game, Losman can. Losman just doesnt understand, 5 yards can lead to 25 yards. Just let the players make plays.

Its like Rob Johnson. All he did was look downfield, if it wanst there he started running. If he could have ever learned to just take what the defense gives you, he could have been a good QB. The defense doesnt always give the short stuff, sometimes the long ball will open up, but if you dont use the short game you wont get the long game.

[YardRat]

If that's his game, then I don't want it. It doesn't work...and it doesn't win in the NFL.

There is no set formula for winning in the NFL...as soon as you think you've got it figured out, adjustments are made, the game changes, and a new formula is all the rage. To take one particular aspect of the game and say it just doesn't work is just plain wrong.

Look at the QB's of all the Super Bowl teams throughout the history of the game. How many winning teams had QB's that fit JP's profile?

[The_Philster]

Holcomb isn't the answer with his weak arm. Look at the speed we have at the WR position this year. A strong arm is needed and Holomb ain't got that. Is JP the answer? No way of knowing until he gets to play without being jerked around but a few things he does have

the ability to improve (which he's been doing) because he has his whole career ahead of him
a strong arm that can actually utilize that speed we have at WR
the mobility to escape and gain significant yards yards if things break downall of those are things Holcomb doesn't have

[The_Philster]

There is no set formula for winning in the NFL...as soon as you think you've got it figured out, adjustments are made, the game changes, and a new formula is all the rage. To take one particular aspect of the game and say it just doesn't work is just plain wrong.

Look at the QB's of all the Super Bowl teams throughout the history of the game. How many winning teams had QB's that fit JP's profile?
Young, Favre, and Elway come to mind pretty easily

[YardRat]

the ability to improve (which he's been doing) because he has his whole career ahead of him

Opportunity to improve is different than ability. The opportunity is a given, because of his age and physical talents. The ability has yet to show.


Young, Favre, and Elway come to mind pretty easily

That's four wins out of forty. 10%. How many were like Holcomb? Guys without the physical tools Losman has?<!-- / message -->

[The_Philster]

Opportunity to improve is different than ability. The opportunity is a given, because of his age and physical talents. The ability has yet to show.
you must've missed some of his play in the latter stages of the season ;)


<!-- / message -->
That's four wins out of forty. 10%. How many were like Holcomb? Guys without the physical tools Losman has?I didn't even put any real thought into it and came up with those...and keep in mind, mobile QBs were usually made into WRs in the earlier days...like Marlin Briscoe

anyway, the only 2 I can truly think of would be Dilfer and Rypien..and I'd say they each had more arm strength than Holcomb.

[ICE74129]

1) Wasn't a rookie.
2) Holcomb had the same line.
3) Holcomb had the same coach.

Anyone else?

1) yes he was and even Marv said he was essentially a rookie due to his busted leg.

2-3) holcomb sucked and went 3-4 as a starter with all of his experience. That = he was worse than JP

[TigerJ]

Holcomb completed a higher percentage of passes, but many were dump offs. That can be both good or bad. Did it reflect an innate tendency of Holcomb, or wisdom in the face of inadequate protection by the offensive line? In the face of that same offensive line, JP tended to panic more, held the ball more trying to go to his primary receiver, and tended to get sacked or threw more into coverage, none of which surprises me in the least given that he lost most of his rookie season. He was a defacto rookie regardless of the fact it was technically his second year with the team.

I think Losman will likely play better this year if he has the chance simply because young players start to play better as they gain some real experience. Studying the playbook while injured as a rookie does not count for much experience.

On the other hand, I don't think Holcomb will get better. He's 33. I think his tendency to dump off is at least as much a sign of his being gun shy as it is wisdom, and I think his lack of arm strength is a real liability.

[HHURRICANE]

Why didn't JP play well last season?

You know your right. Holcomb has only sucked 10 years. JP still has another 9 to prove he's just as bad. Are you kidding?! The kid has 8 starts. End of discussion.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

a strong arm that can actually utilize that speed we have at WR
the mobility to escape and gain significant yards yards if things break down
Gee that sounds like ELWAY!!!!!!
Not HOLCOMB!!!!!

[The_Philster]

Gee that sounds like ELWAY!!!!!!
Not HOLCOMB!!!!!
Elway, Favre, Young... :scratch: All are in the HOF or on their way :idunno:

[X-Era]

Why didn't JP play well last season?

I would disagree that he didnt play "well".

Everybody feels this way, the media has thrown him under the bus, the fans say he played like crap.

Maybe its just me, Im probably wrong, but I was pleasantly suprised at how he played for a 1st year starter.

Anyone who watched Eli Manning or Alex Smith (last year) knows what im talking about.

Losman showed me something with the long throws to Evans in KC game and Mia game. He showed me something with the running.

I think the expectation was set to high, hence my problem with the word "well". If you were looking for Roth, forget it, but Carson Palmer, Troy Aikman, Peyton Manning werent Roth in their first year. Peyton went 3 and 13 his first year...... 3 and 13.

Lets stop there for a moment. Are we saying that a Manning led team that lost the first 4 straight games, won one, and then lost another 4 straight wouldnt be catching as much crap as Losman did last year?

Hell, Losman won the 1st then lost 3 and was literally banished into exile. Where would Manning be if that happened to him?

Losman may never be Manning, a statement made ONLY after Manning has proven himself. But, Losman was a 1st year QB.

We have NO IDEA what he would have ended as if he had started ALL the games. Who knows, maybe he would have out-done that "studly" 4 int performance to end the season.

He easily could have shown natural progression and ended up a exciting, young bright spot for the team.

Dont throw TD and Mularkeys mistakes on Losman. Thats THEIR problems. PERIOD!

[Mr. Miyagi]

"Captain Checkoff"
Then he and Phil can be brothers - Captain Jackoff. :snicker:

[X-Era]

1) Wasn't a rookie.
2) Holcomb had the same line.
3) Holcomb had the same coach.

Anyone else?

Holcomb looked as crappy or worse. What upside does Holcomb and his 20 yard arm have?

4 ints against the clown Jets? ANYONE ELSE?

[The_Philster]

:wtf: are you babbling about? :rolleyes:

[Mr. Miyagi]

LOL just poking some healthy fun. Don't sweat.

[jmb1099]

Ok we all knew this was coming, and sure enough here it is. Thread after thread of comparisons, arguments and dead horse beating. On one hand we have one group of people who won't be satisfied with Losman until he walks on water or raises the dead. I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but the expectations and standards some of you are setting for Losman are impossible for any qb to meet. How did Losman do last year? Like almost every other first year starting QB. You've decided you don't like him I get that, but threads like this are nothing more than one Zone members creative idea to raise Zone bucks and nothing more. He's like EE's mini me. If he really wants to know about everyone's opinions about Losman last year he can run a simple search, if he wants to narrow it down he can run an advanced search. So what about this year because in reality isn't that what matters? So lets look at this logically... When camp started this year everything was basic, very basic and when everything was very basic Losman outshined Holcomb hands down, go back and read the reports. As camp continues the systems will reveal their designed complexity on both sides of the ball. So far Holcomb has adjusted better to the increasing complexity than Losman, but shouldn't he though at this stage? Holcomb has had over ten years experience learning new systems, dealing with new coaches and new players, he ought to adjust better than Losman who has had very limited experience in this. Now here is where I agree with Ice...in order for Losman to adjust he needs snaps, needs to establish a flow, needs to feel how it is to be in sync with his receivers. In my mind the competition was over the minute everyone noticed how much better Losman looked this year than last, in fact many were saying they at least wanted to see improvement, even one of Losman's biggest detractors has publically reconsidered his opinion of him. So give Losman the reps and let him continue to improve, the competition is over.

[PromoTheRobot]

1) Wasn't a rookie.
2) Holcomb had the same line.
3) Holcomb had the same coach.

Anyone else?
Losman had a different game plan when he started. When Holcomb started, he never threw a ball further than 10 yards. Also Holcomb never got yanked whe he played like sh***t.

PTR

[PromoTheRobot]

Im not a Holcomb fan and I have no faith JP has anything besides a strong arm, but please shut up about Holcombs below average arm.

He gets the ball in the players hands. Thats all I ask. He had the longest pass play of the season because he lets the WR's do the work.

I dont think Holcomb takes us anywhere except for a few more wins, but its not because of his arm. I think he is fragile.

People need to calm down. We dont have a QB on this roster. JP does not have the history of an ElI Manning, Roethlisberger, Palmer, so can we STOP comparing him to them.

Our starting QB in 2 years isnt even on the roster.
Yes Holcomb does get the ball in peoples hands. Unfortunately they are only two yards downfield when it's 4th & 7! (NE game) If the Bills start Holcomb, you can cut most of our WR's because they will never see the ball. Opposing defenses will play up short knowing Holcomb won't beat them long. That of course will crunch the field for McGahee, thus neutralizing our run game. A perfect gameplan...if we are shooting for the #1 pick in 2007!

PTR

[theanswer74]

Yes Holcomb does get the ball in peoples hands. Unfortunately they are only two yards downfield when it's 4th & 7! (NE game) If the Bills start Holcomb, you can cut most of our WR's because they will never see the ball. Opposing defenses will play up short knowing Holcomb won't beat them long. That of course will crunch the field for McGahee, thus neutralizing our run game. A perfect gameplan...if we are shooting for the #1 pick in 2007!

PTR

You dont have to throw it 50+ yards. If we do bring some of the Rams passing game it calls for accuracy on crossing patterns, something Holcomb would excel at because of his accuracy.

Just remember, we had one of the best deep ball passers in NFL history, but we had bad offenses. You have to be able to check down. Its funny, we went from a VET who never checked down to a VET who always checks down.

Just because Losman can throw deep doesnt mean anything. For 1, he has to make the right read. I just dont think Losman has the head to figure out NFL defenses. I just dont think he understands how to play QB. He can throw, he can run, but its not college and he has to make quick choices with the ball. That just happend to be his weakness in college.

Tulane fans are still waiting for Losman to develope.

[FlyingDutchman]

IMO the only thing seperating the two is experience. Holcomb often times remained calm and stepped up in the pocket to dump it off to his 3rd or 4th option (assuming he had time to do so). JP would get happy feet and pat the ball, then finally tuck it away and run or throw a crappy pass.

Thats not the only difference, Holcomb obviously played better, but I attribute a lot of JPs blunders on poor coaching, no experience, no line, and just the fact that he was practically a rookie. It took Drew Brees 3 years of constant starting to "get it" I think we gotta cut JP some slack.

[Bulldog]

Who cares if he checks off? Thats his game. He is going to take the safe plays, he knows his weakness.

JP Losman lacks the intincts to play QB in the NFL.


We can sit here and talk about Holcomb all we want, but JP is not the answer. We can sit here and be like Baltimore and give Losman 3 years, but its not hard to see that the guy doesnt have it. Boller looks the same now as he did in year 1 and year 2. Maybe his reads got a bit better, but he still doesnt know how to be a QB.

He will get another shot, even if Holcomb starts. Holcomb will go down with an injury sometime and Losman will be given the rock. Just because he wont start the season doesnt mean he wont get a chance.

Marv said it best, if you have a QB competition, that means you dont have a QB. If you believe in a kid you dont give him competiton. I dont believe in JP, so I would not have given him the job either.

Doesnt mean I want Holcomb to play. It just means I dont care who plays because IMO, our QB of the future is not even on the roster.

Wow, after a whole eight games of starting, losman is a bust. Your post sucks!

[theanswer74]

Wow, after a whole eight games of starting, losman is a bust. Your post sucks!

I never said he was a bust.

I just dont like his chances of being a quality NFL QB.

I wouldnt put time and effort into seeing if he will, its that simple.

Some people would, I just dont know why. A strong arm doesnt do the same for me like it does for some people. Dont get me wrong, I would like to draft a young QB that showed poise in college and also has the talent, like Brady Quinn, but how often do you get the opportunity to draft that guy?

There are just some things you cant coach and it just so happens that JP lacks those things. Poise, anticipating the play, and natural QB instincts.

He didnt have those in college so dont expect those things to just show up in the pros.

[Jan Reimers]

I'm not a JP lover. I'm a Bills' lover. So my answer is this:

JP - a second year pro with virtually no playing time in his first season - did not play well in his 8 starts, because of INEXPERIENCE. Many young QBs, because of INEXPERIENCE, do not play well in their first 8, or 16 or even 20 starts.

Young QBs need experience to learn to play what is arguably the most difficult position in all of sports.

JP is a former first round pick with great physical tools. Holcomb is an 11 year veteran with a track record of mediocrity, who last year played only marginally better than the totally inexperienced JP.

Anyone who wants a journeyman like Holcomb to start over a promising, but raw, talent like JP, just doesn't see the proverbial big picture.

[X-Era]

You dont have to throw it 50+ yards. If we do bring some of the Rams passing game it calls for accuracy on crossing patterns, something Holcomb would excel at because of his accuracy.

Just remember, we had one of the best deep ball passers in NFL history, but we had bad offenses. You have to be able to check down. Its funny, we went from a VET who never checked down to a VET who always checks down.

Just because Losman can throw deep doesnt mean anything. For 1, he has to make the right read. I just dont think Losman has the head to figure out NFL defenses. I just dont think he understands how to play QB. He can throw, he can run, but its not college and he has to make quick choices with the ball. That just happend to be his weakness in college.

Tulane fans are still waiting for Losman to develope.

Hmmm, lets see. Would I rather have to cover 20 yards of the field or the whole thing? Hmmmmmm.

Hmmm, lets see. If all my defense is within 20 yards, and doesnt have to worry about anything deep, I can simply keep them there, and have even MORE bodys to try to run through.

There answer is simple, look up Holcombs performance against the world champ Pats in the 1st half, THAT is what dink and dunk does. It moves the ball, but you get NO points, and you end up losing anyways!

[TedMock]

I'm not a JP lover. I'm a Bills' lover. So my answer is this:

JP - a second year pro with virtually no playing time in his first season - did not play well in his 8 starts, because of INEXPERIENCE. Many young QBs, because of INEXPERIENCE, do not play well in their first 8, or 16 or even 20 starts.

Young QBs need experience to learn to play what is arguably the most difficult position in all of sports.

JP is a former first round pick with great physical tools. Holcomb is an 11 year veteran with a track record of mediocrity, who last year played only marginally better than the totally inexperienced JP.

Anyone who wants a journeyman like Holcomb to start over a promising, but raw, talent like JP, just doesn't see the proverbial big picture.

Can you believe how stupid Marvin Lewis is for putting Carson Palmer in, and riding it out? What a moron! [Sarcasm off]

Okay, 1st, I am in NO WAY comparing Losman to Palmer. Palmer is a stud, elite QB. I know nothing about Losman due to circumstances we already beat to death. The situation, however, is similar. Kitna, the average veteran backup, comes off a wonderful season. He's comeback player of the year! Palmer is a first rounder, but Kitna deserves to start. Coach Lewis thinks "I've gotta get this kid in at some point, and it's better to take knocks now." The fans are going crazy after the 3-5 start. Palmer is putting up yardage, but also making horrible decisions as seen in his 6 TD's and 10 INT's. However, there is steady improvement behind a decent O-line. So, despite the fans unhappiness the coach sticks with Palmer. He ends up with 18 TD's and 18 INT's. He obviously improved the second half of the season. Good for you, coach Lewis!

Now, again, JP is NOT Carson Palmer. However, he is a young QB with above-average talent. Maybe he should be given his chance. Don't do the QB by committee thing, don't shatter his confidence, don't expect miracles behind a crap o-line, don't put in a position to fail. You protect a young QB with a good o-line, and a work-horse running game. He SHOULD get better as the year goes on. If not, we draft a guy next year and start over. Last year, for all intents and purposes was his rookie year. You can always say it wasn't because of the technicality, but reality is he missed virtually the entire rookie season with a broken leg, so that arguement is pretty much as stupid as one anybody can bring up. If he's that bad, then go with Holcomb. That's fine. At least we have an answer. Now, why would a 10 year vet with starting experience outplay a rookie? How about because he's a 10-year vet with starting experience. Young players have to adjust, especially QB's. You've heard a million times that it takes a full season for the game to slow down for young QB's. Why should we expect different? What's sad is that a 10-year vet with starting experience can't outplay a rookie. Listen, I like Holcomb, but I like him as a nice veteran backup. We need to know if JP will be our guy for the next 10 years, or if we need to find that guy in April. Play the kid, let him take his lumps, let him grow, let him learn how to win at this level. I'm fine with an open competition, so long as we make our decision early in the preseason and stick with it.

[Billsman12]

I really just don't get why people want Holcomb to start...IMO and I think most will agree, chances are neither QB will take to us the playoffs THIS year...Lets just say that we did start Holcomb for the whole year and with him starting we go 7-9 or maybe 8-8...now lets say JP starts for the whole year and we go 5-11 or 6-10...If you were to start Holcomb at the end of the 06' season you have gained absolutely nothing except two extra meaningless wins...but if you were to start JP you gain a lot of things...you see if JP really is the man or not and if he is the man you no longer have to worry about him having no experience...It just seems to me that if we start Holcomb were in the same position next year but if you start Losman we can move forward and focus on making the playoffs

[The_Philster]

Nice post...except that I think Losman at QB will provide us at least as many wins as Holcomb would

[Goobylal]

I'd submit that the reason the team didn't play as well with JP in there had little to do with JP himself, but some of the veterans dogging it/him because they wanted Holcomb in there. Hopefully trading Moulds sent a message to EVERYONE that no one is safe.

[theanswer74]

Hmmm, lets see. Would I rather have to cover 20 yards of the field or the whole thing? Hmmmmmm.

Hmmm, lets see. If all my defense is within 20 yards, and doesnt have to worry about anything deep, I can simply keep them there, and have even MORE bodys to try to run through.

There answer is simple, look up Holcombs performance against the world champ Pats in the 1st half, THAT is what dink and dunk does. It moves the ball, but you get NO points, and you end up losing anyways!

Ok, you said nothing new. We know Holcomb struggles downfield.

Bash Holcomb all you want, he has weaknesses, but dont tell me JP Losman is my other choice.

I dont care if the guy had 8 games, Im not willing to find out about the guy. I think its a waste of time. Remember, Marv and Juaron did not bring Losman here, they have no emotional connection to him. He is just another player in camp, they dont have to prove to the world that they made the right choice.

If they dont think he will become a quality QB, then they shouldnt waste their time or our time. The Giants management Believed in Eli Manning, the Bengals believed in Palmer, and now the Chargers believe in Rivers (IF AJ Smith gets fired, RIvers would be in trouble).

I dont know how any fan believes in JP. What in his past makes you believe in JP Losman??

I know people hate this, but why does it always seem like JP Losman is on an island and everyone else cant get to it? He always seems seperated from the team in some way. I just dont see any type of relationships building yet. How is that possible after 3 training camps? Something is not right here.

[Mad Bomber]

He gets the ball in the players hands. Thats all I ask. He had the longest pass play of the season because he lets the WR's do the work.


Holcomb has no arm. He's the master of throwing 3-5 yard passes when it's 3rd and 8.

[Philagape]

This thread has a one-word answer: Inexperience. Why is that so hard to understand?

Now what's Holcomb's excuse?

If one can't beat out the other, don't you go with the guy who at least has a CHANCE to improve?

[theanswer74]

This thread has a one-word answer: Inexperience. Why is that so hard to understand?

Now what's Holcomb's excuse?

If one can't beat out the other, don't you go with the guy who at least has a CHANCE to improve?

Why is it so hard to understand that JP Losman is not worth the time and games lost.

Whats stupid are the people in a Holcomb vs Losman fight.

If they were women, one would be ugly and the other would be fat and ugly. The only difference is one can lose weight, but they still will both be ugly.

[Philagape]

Why is it so hard to understand that JP Losman is not worth the time and games lost.

Because I don't understand notions like that that are completely clueless about what goes into developing a QB.

[theanswer74]

Because I don't understand notions like that that are completely clueless about what goes into developing a QB.

Not really. The whole point is I would not have drafted him. Im glad you would have. QB's need to show more than an arm and athletic ability in college. He lacked poise in college. Add that to the fact he was not a winner in college.

The arm and athletic ability is a luxury, he needs to understand the position and I dont think he does and never will. Its hard to learn something like that. It has to do with natural instincts and he never had them.

After I got over the fact that Drafting JP Losman meant the end of Drew Bledsoe, I saw that we drafted a guy with all the tools, but lacks the head for the game.

If Marv and Juaron do not believe JP Losman will become a quality QB, they should not waste Bills fans time.

[TedMock]

If Marv and Juaron do not believe JP Losman will become a quality QB, they should not waste Bills fans time.

That's just it. I think they do feel that the possibility is there, but he needs to win the job or it's over for him in Buffalo. Also, don't forget that in college he played behind what one observer (I think it was Bradshaw, but I don't specifically remember which pro said it) said was the "worst offensive line I've ever seen." Then he comes to Buffalo behind a horrible line. The kid needs to seriously be broken down, and re-built in order to break him of that panic he's probably developed in college and the NFL. If that doesn't happen, he'll never be worth a damn.

[Philagape]

I dont think he does and never will.

And who are you? Another peanut in the gallery.

I don't know if JP has it or not, but there's only one way to find out.

[theanswer74]

And who are you? Another peanut in the gallery.

I don't know if JP has it or not, but there's only one way to find out.

Your going after me because I dont think JP will learn how to be a good QB?

Talk about lack of mental toughness.

Bring better stuff than that. JP is all arm but no game. Its been that way everywhere he has played. Like I said, Tulane fans are still waiting for Losman to develope.

Doesnt mean Im a Holcomb guy, I just dont think we have a QB. Im sorry. Maybe thats how "realists" should think. We dont have a QB here.

[Philagape]

Your going after me because I dont think JP will learn how to be a good QB?


I'm asking, what gives you that kind of foreknowledge? Because that's all it is. There have been too many QBs who have foiled expectations, good and bad, for anyone to be an expert. NFL coaches and scouts get it wrong all the time, so what qualifies anyone on this board to predict what kind of career any prospect will have? We're just a peanut gallery (I wasn't trying to insult you)

[X-Era]

Ok, you said nothing new. We know Holcomb struggles downfield.

Bash Holcomb all you want, he has weaknesses, but dont tell me JP Losman is my other choice.

I dont care if the guy had 8 games, Im not willing to find out about the guy. I think its a waste of time. Remember, Marv and Juaron did not bring Losman here, they have no emotional connection to him. He is just another player in camp, they dont have to prove to the world that they made the right choice.

If they dont think he will become a quality QB, then they shouldnt waste their time or our time. The Giants management Believed in Eli Manning, the Bengals believed in Palmer, and now the Chargers believe in Rivers (IF AJ Smith gets fired, RIvers would be in trouble).

I dont know how any fan believes in JP. What in his past makes you believe in JP Losman??

I know people hate this, but why does it always seem like JP Losman is on an island and everyone else cant get to it? He always seems seperated from the team in some way. I just dont see any type of relationships building yet. How is that possible after 3 training camps? Something is not right here.

Fine, you want to wait until he proves something to believe in him? go for it.

I bet there were Colts, Giants, Cinncy, and Philly fans who said the same thing before any of there QB's had proven anything.

Your point is moot, without data, your wasting your breath on JP being a waste. Right now hes the only high round, loads of talent prospect we have. I say ride him, and find out whether he is worth a crap or not. If he doesnt get er done, get someone who will.

But it isnt NOW, hasnt EVER been, nor will it EVER be Holcomb who is the answer.

[Mad Bomber]

Fine, you want to wait until he proves something to believe in him? go for it.

I bet there were Colts, Giants, Cinncy, and Philly fans who said the same thing before any of there QB's had proven anything.

Your point is moot, without data, your wasting your breath on JP being a waste. Right now hes the only high round, loads of talent prospect we have. I say ride him, and find out whether he is worth a crap or not. If he doesnt get er done, get someone who will.

But it isnt NOW, hasnt EVER been, nor will it EVER be Holcomb who is the answer.
:bf1:

[theanswer74]

Fine, you want to wait until he proves something to believe in him? go for it.

I bet there were Colts, Giants, Cinncy, and Philly fans who said the same thing before any of there QB's had proven anything.

Your point is moot, without data, your wasting your breath on JP being a waste. Right now hes the only high round, loads of talent prospect we have. I say ride him, and find out whether he is worth a crap or not. If he doesnt get er done, get someone who will.

But it isnt NOW, hasnt EVER been, nor will it EVER be Holcomb who is the answer.

Are you serious?? P. Manning, E. Manning, Palmer, McNabb???? These guys were leaders in college. The team respected them. They showed the ability to win. They showed poise. They showed an understanding of how to play QB.

How can anyone compare Losman to these players?? These players showed the intangibles you look for in a QB while in college. The knock on Losman was that he didnt show these intangibles.

Losman was drafted because of his physical ability, but he lacked the mental part of the game. I just dont think that is something he will ever learn.

I dont know of many QB's that lacked that part of the game and succeded. QB's who have success, but were taken later in the draft like a Tom Brady or Joe Montana all excelled at the mental part of the game, but they lacked some of the physical attributes guys like Losman have.

[Philagape]

Then he deserves a chance to learn. If a QB isn't getting it mentally, it means either he just doesn't have the brain power, or he just needs experience to absorb the process of reading defenses and finding receivers at NFL speed. JP sounds like an intelligent person, and he's shown enough to deserve a chance.
If you add today's reports, it sounds like JP's good drives are becoming more frequent. He's better than he was at this time last year. He's learning.

[X-Era]

Are you serious?? P. Manning, E. Manning, Palmer, McNabb???? These guys were leaders in college. The team respected them. They showed the ability to win. They showed poise. They showed an understanding of how to play QB.

How can anyone compare Losman to these players?? These players showed the intangibles you look for in a QB while in college. The knock on Losman was that he didnt show these intangibles.

Losman was drafted because of his physical ability, but he lacked the mental part of the game. I just dont think that is something he will ever learn.

I dont know of many QB's that lacked that part of the game and succeded. QB's who have success, but were taken later in the draft like a Tom Brady or Joe Montana all excelled at the mental part of the game, but they lacked some of the physical attributes guys like Losman have.
Your so right, McNabb played for a STUD team who competed for the national title. Eli was in the title game too with his OUTSTANDING squad. Carr had a stud team, Culpepper was surrounded with talent, Alex Smith played for an all world college team.

But then we have Ken Dorseys, Danny Wuerffels, Cade McNowns, Scott Frosts, Jesse Palmer, Rex Grossman, Brooks Bollinger, Joe Germaine. Your right, the college "leaders" playing for stud teams ARE the best NFL prospects...Hell even a 2 time Heisman hopeful from a national championship USC in Leinhart dropped PAST us to Arizona. This guy was said by many to have the leadership you want but NOT the tangibles. More of a Tom Brady type. Ohh well, that arguement is shot to.

You wanna throw our new regime at me saying that our newbies see nothing in Losman? They thought so little of him that they skipped a Heisman winner on a National Champion team in Leinhart to take SS!!! That ought to prove to you that they are pretty damn high on Losman.

Your arguement is weak. Theres a reason Losman went in the first round. Im sorry you dont see it, thats your problem. TRUE NFL caliper GM's and head coaches did. Notice I said this in plural. Other teams besides us were high on Losman including Green Bay. But yeah what do they know, you have obviously out thunk them with your top notch arguement.

[theanswer74]

Your so right, McNabb played for a STUD team who competed for the national title. Eli was in the title game too with his OUTSTANDING squad. Carr had a stud team, Culpepper was surrounded with talent, Alex Smith played for an all world college team.

But then we have Ken Dorseys, Danny Wuerffels, Cade McNowns, Scott Frosts, Jesse Palmer, Rex Grossman, Brooks Bollinger, Joe Germaine. Your right, the college "leaders" playing for stud teams ARE the best NFL prospects...

Your arguement is weak. Theres a reason Losman went in the first round. Im sorry you dont see it, thats your problem. TRUE NFL caliper GM's and head coaches did. Notice I said this in plural. Other teams besides us were high on Losman including Green Bay. But yeah what do they know, you have obviously out thunk them with your top notch arguement.

So your telling me there isnt an exact science to finding a QB?? No duh.

I think its fair to be able to give my opinion. I never said JP sucks or that he is a bust because he has not had the opportunity to show that, but I just dont think he WILL become a quality NFL QB. Doesnt mean anything, but its my opinion. I feel we will waste time with him.

By the way, all the teams the GM's and coaches that had interest in JP have since been fired. Donahoe, Martz, and Sherman.

WHat does that mean?? Nothing, but its interesting.

[X-Era]

So your telling there isnt an exact science to finding a QB?? No duh.

I think its fair to be able to give my opinion. I never said JP sucks or that he is a bust, I just dont think he WILL become a quality NFL QB. Doesnt mean anything, but its my opinion.

By the way, all the teams the GM's and coaches that had interest in JP have since been fired. Donahoe, Martz, and Sherman.

WHat does that mean?? Nothing, but its interesting.

Your entitled to your opinion and I respect it as a fellow Bills fan. I dont agree but so what, who cares.

My only anger comes from benching JP last year. Now we have to spend another year figuring out what we have in him. We could have had that done by now...BEFORE the draft...BEFORE this FA period. Brees? Leinhart? Young? we could have done something. Instead we have to wait to find out on him still.

My arguement isnt that Losman is god, only that we have no other prospect worth a damn and that we havent learned jack sh_t yet about what Losman will become.

That sounds like a negative outlook but it isnt. Id be perfectly happy if Losman ends up being our version of Eli or Palmer. He has a decent shot at that. But he also can be the next waste of a 1st rounder.

We just wont know until we watch him play ALOT!

My point is, hurry up, let the trial begin, so that we can get to the judgement on our future and what we need to do if anything at QB. Instead we have made NO forward momentum and are NO closer to knowing where we are at QB thanks to TD, a few vets, and that fool Mularkey.

Hey, maybe he will bench Culpepper to play Harrington! :)

[Night Train]

1) Wasn't a rookie.
2) Holcomb had the same line.
3) Holcomb had the same coach.

Anyone else?

He needed to play every down after he came off the bench to win the KC game.

JP was playing at 100 mph. and had zero touch early on the season. He looked like a different QB in the KC game. I believe KC had given up 50 points the week before and the great Holcomb had us with ZERO points in the 3rd quarter, when JP came on to throw 2 TDs.

33 year old immobile noodle arm QB's make great gatorade guards. Little else.

[Night Train]

From Mickeys report today..

JP Losman came back in for two more plays and kept it up. He first found George Wilson for 10-yards and then threw a beautiful 50 yard bomb to Roscoe Parrish that would have definitely gone for a touchdown. That crowd went nuts after that play.

Kelly Holcomb came back and dumped off to Robert Royal for 5 yards.


:rolleyes:


<!-- / message -->

[raphael120]

for people who say theres no connections to this administration to JP, wasnt it Tom Modrak who was the main scouter in the year under TD, and still is?

[Throne Logic]

[QUOTE=theanswer74]I think its fair to be able to give my opinion. I never said JP sucks or that he is a bust because he has not had the opportunity to show that, but I just dont think he WILL become a quality NFL QB. Doesnt mean anything, but its my opinion. I feel we will waste time with him.
QUOTE]

OK, I've been quietly reading your posts for a while now. This is how your position on the QB situation appears.

In in nutshell, you don't believe in Losman. You feel that he's shown very little of the qualities that NFL QB's generally display, especially when comparing careers back in college.

You've also stated that you don't believe that Holcomb is the answer, either. Holcomb, in your eyes, is also physically fragile and will "will go down with an injury sometime". You also stated that Holcomb "can't expand his game" beyond the short pass.

Now, you actually made a much larger statement when you stated that "IMO, our QB of the future is not even on the roster".


I believe I have a pretty good grasp on your position here. I'd like to take you to task on two issues:


First, in regards to this statement: "Now Holcomb CANT expand his game, Losman can. Losman just doesnt understand, 5 yards can lead to 25 yards. Just let the players make plays."

If you believe Losman can expand his game but doesn't seem to understand how to do this, why do you feel that experience will not allow him to gain this understanding? How else should we expect a QB to gain this knowledge?

Second, in regards to your belief that neither QB is the answer for this team. For this issue, I'd also like to bring this comment to light: "I would like to draft a young QB that showed poise in college and also has the talent, like Brady Quinn, but how often do you get the opportunity to draft that guy?"

From your posts, it appears that you believe that Holcomb will not bring the Bills into real contention. What do we stand to gain with Holcomb starting? If you believe that Losman would be even worse, then wouldn't that be beneficial for Buffalo's 2007 draft position? Plus, it would prove, once and for all, what kind of QB JP really is. If JP doesn't improve and Buffalo finishes in the toilet, how much worse off are the Bills than if Holcomb starts the whole season and Buffalo still doesn't reach the 500 mark? You mentioned that you "wouldnt put time and effort into seeing if [Losman is] a quality NFL QB". Without Losman starting, in regards to the QB situation, where exactly is the team putting their time effort? It seems like it would be a repeat of last year's wasted season to let Holcomb start.


In summary, based upon your own comments, I do not understand why you don't want JP to start. If he sucks, you can take full credit for being right. Plus, Buffalo will have a great draft pick in 2007. If JP turns out to not suck, then you might have to eat a little crow while sitting back and enjoying a little overdue success in Buffalo. Seems like a win - win here. If Holcomb starts, Buffalo goes nowhere, gets a mediocre pick in 2007 and we watch another frustrating season wind up with nothing gained. Where's the issue here?

I look forward to your reply.

- TL

[Historian]

Losman looks like an NFL Quarterback.

Van Holcomb looks like the guy working behind The Butcher's Block at Topps.

:D

[shelby]

In summary, based upon your own comments, I do not understand why you don't want JP to start. If he sucks, you can take full credit for being right. Plus, Buffalo will have a great draft pick in 2007. If JP turns out to not suck, then you might have to eat a little crow while sitting back and enjoying a little overdue success in Buffalo. Seems like a win - win here. If Holcomb starts, Buffalo goes nowhere, gets a mediocre pick in 2007 and we watch another frustrating season wind up with nothing gained. Where's the issue here?


:goodpost:

[Throne Logic]

No response? I assume that Mr. Answer74 is at church this morning and plans to make his remarks later today.

[theanswer74]

OK, I've been quietly reading your posts for a while now. This is how your position on the QB situation appears.

In in nutshell, you don't believe in Losman. You feel that he's shown very little of the qualities that NFL QB's generally display, especially when comparing careers back in college.

You've also stated that you don't believe that Holcomb is the answer, either. Holcomb, in your eyes, is also physically fragile and will "will go down with an injury sometime". You also stated that Holcomb "can't expand his game" beyond the short pass.

Now, you actually made a much larger statement when you stated that "IMO, our QB of the future is not even on the roster".


I believe I have a pretty good grasp on your position here. I'd like to take you to task on two issues:


First, in regards to this statement: "Now Holcomb CANT expand his game, Losman can. Losman just doesnt understand, 5 yards can lead to 25 yards. Just let the players make plays."

If you believe Losman can expand his game but doesn't seem to understand how to do this, why do you feel that experience will not allow him to gain this understanding? How else should we expect a QB to gain this knowledge?

Second, in regards to your belief that neither QB is the answer for this team. For this issue, I'd also like to bring this comment to light: "I would like to draft a young QB that showed poise in college and also has the talent, like Brady Quinn, but how often do you get the opportunity to draft that guy?"

From your posts, it appears that you believe that Holcomb will not bring the Bills into real contention. What do we stand to gain with Holcomb starting? If you believe that Losman would be even worse, then wouldn't that be beneficial for Buffalo's 2007 draft position? Plus, it would prove, once and for all, what kind of QB JP really is. If JP doesn't improve and Buffalo finishes in the toilet, how much worse off are the Bills than if Holcomb starts the whole season and Buffalo still doesn't reach the 500 mark? You mentioned that you "wouldnt put time and effort into seeing if [Losman is] a quality NFL QB". Without Losman starting, in regards to the QB situation, where exactly is the team putting their time effort? It seems like it would be a repeat of last year's wasted season to let Holcomb start.


In summary, based upon your own comments, I do not understand why you don't want JP to start. If he sucks, you can take full credit for being right. Plus, Buffalo will have a great draft pick in 2007. If JP turns out to not suck, then you might have to eat a little crow while sitting back and enjoying a little overdue success in Buffalo. Seems like a win - win here. If Holcomb starts, Buffalo goes nowhere, gets a mediocre pick in 2007 and we watch another frustrating season wind up with nothing gained. Where's the issue here?

I look forward to your reply.

- TL

No one ever asked me who I would start.

I simply stated my opinion of JP. I dont believe he will become a quality NFL QB.

I think Holcomb only gets us as far as average, if that.

That said, If I was in charge of the Bills and I had Losman and Holcomb as my QB's, I would play Losman. I wouldnt have drafted him, but since those are the 2 we have and there are sooo many question marks on this team, you go with the guy that can improve.

Me saying I dont think he will doesnt mean he wont.

My main point is, all this fighting over Holcomb and Losman is stupid. It will all play out on the field.

If I had to put everythign I had on one of these QB's being the QB of the Bills in 2 years or that another guy will be starting, I would put everything on the other guy.

Would you put everything you own on JP Losman being the QB of the Bills in 2 years?

[Throne Logic]

Would you put everything you own on JP Losman being the QB of the Bills in 2 years?

Nope. This year I would start Losman. Win or loose, we're better off come January. We're either a competative team, or we're a team with a good draft pick who knows a QB is priority in the off-season and/or draft.

Primarily, I don't want to repeat last season, where for better for worse, we get no where in the QB saga.

[theanswer74]

Nope. This year I would start Losman. Win or loose, we're better off come January. We're either a competative team, or we're a team with a good draft pick who knows a QB is priority in the off-season and/or draft.

Primarily, I don't want to repeat last season, where for better for worse, we get no where in the QB saga.

I dont want a repeat of last season either.

Im guilty, early on last year i wanted Holcomb to play after JP struggled. Looking back, I wish they never pulled him, but that was just the Bills fan in me thinking of now and not tomorrow.

I think Losman should start the season, just like I thought he should have last year. But i wont get upset if they start Holcomb because we have to be real here, Marv and Juaron might not think Losman is the guy for them.

But you know what?? Even if they think that, Losman will still get a chance. Just like in San Deigo when the CHargers drafted Rivers after Brees struggled for a few years.

The thing Marv and Juaron cant do is force feed the team Losman, especially if they dont think he has it in him to lead the team.

We just have to let things play out.

To be honest, I think the best scenario for this team is start Holcomb and have Losman come in off the bench when Holcomb goes down with an injury. He would have no pressure and hopefully he proves people like me wrong and runs away with the job.

[Throne Logic]

The thing Marv and Juaron cant do is force feed the team Losman, especially if they dont think he has it in him to lead the team.

OK, this makes sense. I believe that the "QB competition" is designed to avoid this very thing. It very likely that JP will play at least as well as Holcomb in the preseason. Which, hopefully, will be better than "didn't suck quite as bad as Holcomb".

Holcomb was signed as a full time backup. He accepted that likelyhood upon making the decision to join the team. Unfortunately, the inept coaching of the past two years put the starting bug back in Holcomb's ear. I was sort of hoping he'd get dumped in the off-season. Not because I don't like him. I just did not want a repeat situation of a Holcomb / Losman controversy . Competition is healthy, controversy is not.

[Buffalogic]

The bills were commited to Losman, not Holcomb, when they sent Bledsoe packing. Did we got rid of Bledsoe to get Kelly Holcomb? I'd like to believe not? Losman is supposed to be the future of this franchise. Just because Holcomb plays equally bad, or a tad better, in Losman's most vulnerable point in his career, doesn't mean we should scrap JP's entire development to get 1 or 2 more wins in a losing season.

JP's ceiling is much higher than Holcomb's, and that's impossible to argue at this point. Stop tugging JP around and let's see if maybe, just maybe, he can blossom into the franchise QB us bills fans have been longing for.

[theanswer74]

The bills were commited to Losman, not Holcomb, when they sent Bledsoe packing. Did we got rid of Bledsoe to get Kelly Holcomb? I'd like to believe not? Losman is supposed to be the future of this franchise. Just because Holcomb plays equally bad, or a tad better, in Losman's most vulnerable point in his career, doesn't mean we should scrap JP's entire development to get 1 or 2 more wins in a losing season.

JP's ceiling is much higher than Holcomb's, and that's impossible to argue at this point. Stop tugging JP around and let's see if maybe, just maybe, he can blossom into the franchise QB us bills fans have been longing for.

Who was commited to Losman?? Was it Donahoe or Mularkey or both?? Losman is not the future of this team until proven otherwise. Donahoe is gone and Mularkey is gone, I have no faith in any question marks they brought to this team and are still here.