If Troy Aikman (HOF)!!! got treated like JP...

[im4bflo]

... would he be in the HOF today???
Look at his start of his career! What if they yanked him, everytime he didn't perform a miracle, and win the game, and stuck in the 2nd stringer, just because he had more experience, but not a QB of your future?
You've got to let them sink, to learn how to swim.
This has been the start of many QB's who now are great.
Why can't we take a year, and be SURE if he's the man or not?
All this crap is just dragging our problem on and on...
Holcomb might win a couple more games NOW, but that's not the goal, the goal is nothing less than a SUPERBOWL CHAMPIONSHIP (it should be!)
And we may be sitting on another Aikman (or not), but we'll never know, playing games with Holcomb.
As far as I'm concerned, if a decision is made, for any other reason, than to Win a SB, it was a bad decision.

[Tatonka]

yeah.. this has been stated over and over.. almost no qbs in the history of the game looked good in their first full year.. we have yet to see jp in his first full year.. and in a half year, he got 8tds and 8 ints.. i still cant see how that was as awful as some make it out to be.

[RockStar36]

Big Ben is about the only exception to the rule that I can think of. Just about every other young QB struggles in the first few games.

I tried to use that logic last year, but it just didn't work. I was told that Holcomb gave us a shot at the playoffs even though any normal intelligent Bills fan would have known that the Bills, as a team, didn't have a shot in hell at the playoffs. Those games that Holcomb started were wasted.

We could be going into this season knowing what to expect from QB after going through a year of development. Instead, we have another year of not knowing what to expect because games were wasted last year w/ Kelly Van Holcomb.

Ridiculous.

[Historian]

1-15 Van Holcomb fans. That was Troy's Cowboy 1989 record.

1-15

[Night Train]

Big Ben is about the only exception to the rule that I can think of.

Marino. He came out smoking against the Bills in 1983.

Ben R. didn't do anything near what Marino did, other than to not make the killer mistake that cost his team the win. I still don't consider him an elite NFL QB at all. Look at his SB game performance....Terrible.

[Historian]

Kelly was an immediate starter too, even though it was for the Gamblers.

I even remember fans calling for Elway's head in 1983.

:rolleyes:

[YardRat]

Using Aikman or Peyton Manning as historical references to the situation with JP and Buffalo is an unsound argument. Neither Dallas or Indy were coming off of 9-7 seasons, just missing the play-offs.

[The_Philster]

Using Aikman or Peyton Manning as historical references to the situation with JP and Buffalo is an unsound argument. Neither Dallas or Indy were coming off of 9-7 seasons, just missing the play-offs.
it's not like JP had an identical team to work with. For one thing, the defense was far worse.
And as far as Big Ben, his team may have had a good season his rookie year...but he wasn't asked to do much for the most part. The team was stocked pretty well around him. I've seen some seem to think that since Big Ben's Steelers did well his rookie year, that's the standard that 1st year QBs should be measured by. That shows a serious lack of understanding of the game of football..no QB does it on his own and JP had far less help than Big Ben did

[jmb1099]

Using Aikman or Peyton Manning as historical references to the situation with JP and Buffalo is an unsound argument. Neither Dallas or Indy were coming off of 9-7 seasons, just missing the play-offs.
But...our 9-7 record contained a string of wins against teams that were less than spectacular. We couldn't even turn the corner against Pitsburghs third string so it may have looked like we were playoff bound (I was one that really wanted that to be the case) hindsight and history prove otherwise. The first year starter argument stands, there are a few exceptions to the rule, but they are not the rule.

[ICE74129]

Using Aikman or Peyton Manning as historical references to the situation with JP and Buffalo is an unsound argument. Neither Dallas or Indy were coming off of 9-7 seasons, just missing the play-offs.

Rat, you know better so don't go there. It was a joke of a schedule playing the worst teams in the NFL. It wasn't a 9-7 team and 05 showed it.

[ICE74129]

it's not like JP had an identical team to work with. For one thing, the defense was far worse.
And as far as Big Ben, his team may have had a good season his rookie year...but he wasn't asked to do much for the most part. The team was stocked pretty well around him. I've seen some seem to think that since Big Ben's Steelers did well his rookie year, that's the standard that 1st year QBs should be measured by. That shows a serious lack of understanding of the game of football..no QB does it on his own and JP had far less help than Big Ben did

Exactly. Apples and oranges. Those that point to Ben are JP haters period or as you say, show a serious lack of understanding of the game of football.

Put Ben on last years Bills, fans would be calling for his head. JP on the steelers in 04/05 and I don't know if they win a superbowl, but he would be considered the next phenom QB. No QB in NFL history got drafted into a better situation than Big Ben

[bills suk]

It's hard for a team to just sit back and lose games. And really, I know you guys aren't comparing JP to Troy. JP might be good and he may not be getting a fair shot at playing, but to compare him to Troy is a little crazy. QB's like Troy or even Jim Kelly come around once in a blue moon. If he was that great the coaching staff would have seen that in practice buy now and he would be starting every game regaurdless of the outcome.

[The_Philster]

It's hard for a team to just sit back and lose games. And really, I know you guys aren't comparing JP to Troy. JP might be good and he may not be getting a fair shot at playing, but to compare him to Troy is a little crazy. QB's like Troy or even Jim Kelly come around once in a blue moon. If he was that great the coaching staff would have seen that in practice buy now and he would be starting every game regaurdless of the outcome.
For one...Mularkey just wasn't that bright last years pulling the QB switches...although he may have seen how great JP might eventually be...which would explain why he was named the starter last offseason.
For another thing, JP might very well have shown the current coaches that he could be great as well and the QB competition may be more for the benefit of those who think it was unfair to just hand the kid the job than anything else...he may already have the starting job all but locked...we've no way of really knowing that :idunno:

[bills suk]

For one...Mularkey just wasn't that bright last years pulling the QB switches...although he may have seen how great JP might eventually be...which would explain why he was named the starter last offseason.
For another thing, JP might very well have shown the current coaches that he could be great as well and the QB competition may be more for the benefit of those who think it was unfair to just hand the kid the job than anything else...he may already have the starting job all but locked...we've no way of really knowing that :idunno:
We will know in about a week who has it. A lot of coaches these days seem to be pulling the QB switch. Miami tried doing it as well. It just doesn't pan out right when you don't give a QB his time to get in a groove.

[Stewie]

Big Ben is about the only exception to the rule that I can think of. Just about every other young QB struggles in the first few games.



Big Ben's numbers weren't that great. He had a piddling quarterback rating in his first 10 games. He played on the best overall team, which helped, and he limited his mistakes.

I can almost guarantee that no one has run as much as pittsburgh since roethlisberger's rookie year.

[Philagape]

For the umpteenth time, bringing up Elway, Aikman, Young, etc., is NOT saying JP will have careers like them. It's saying that a QB's early games are not necessarily indicative of his future career. There are enough QBs like that to render any QB's first eight games irrelevant. It's the nature of the position to start poorly, especially on a mess of a team like us last year.

[TacklingDummy]

Until JP becomes like Aikman, Kelly, Favre, Manning, Palmer etc... you can't compare him to them. Most all of them came from big time college schools, playing against good competition and putting up outstanding numbers . They didn't play at crappy Tulane where JP did nothing special to begin with.

Right now the only ones JP can be compared to is the Leafs, Ware's, Johnson's, Klingler's, Smith's etc...of the NFL.

[ICE74129]

Until JP becomes like Aikman, Kelly, Favre, Manning, Palmer etc... you can't compare him to them. Most all of them came from big time college schools, playing against good competition and putting up outstanding numbers . They didn't play at crappy Tulane where JP did nothing special to begin with.

Right now the only ones JP can be compared to is the Leafs, Ware's, Johnson's, Klingler's, Smith's etc...of the NFL.


Sorry this is a pure hate post that ignores FACT. ALL the above had good head coaches that had the guts to start the guy and keep him in there.

ONLY when DJ gets a pair and does the same will we ever know the truth about JP. Not in preseason, not in camp, only by giving him 16 straight games with no pulling him and 100% support like the guys above had, will we ever know.

there is NO getting around it.

[Philagape]

The best rookie QB in the last 20 years came out of Miami of Ohio, so add college to the list of irrelevant facts used against JP.

[TacklingDummy]

The best rookie QB in the last 20 years came out of Miami of Ohio, so add college to the list of irrelevant facts used against JP.

Uh huh, there's always a exception to the rule.

[im4bflo]

Like it's been said, we're not comparing their careers, just that some of the great one's, started slow, BUT got a year, at least, to learn and improve without getting yanked, and that helped them to become what they are today.
JP has not gotten that chance, and I would like to see him get it, before we judge him. that's all.
We should have had that answer by now, but no, we're still where we were two years ago. GIT-R-DONE!

[TacklingDummy]

Sorry this is a pure hate post that ignores FACT. ALL the above had good head coaches that had the guts to start the guy and keep him in there.



It's not a hate post, its a post of FACTS.

Manning: Tennesee.
Aikman: UCLA
Favre: Southern Miss.
Palmer: USC
Kelly: U Miami Florida
Brady: Michigan
Montana: ND
JP Losman: Couldn't play with the Big Boys at UCLA had to transfer to Tulane.

[TacklingDummy]

JP has not gotten that chance, and I would like to see him get it, before we judge him. t!

JP has gotten 2 chances last year. And he has a chance this year. It's no ones fault but his own that that he has blown the first 2 chances and if he can't beat out Kelly Holcomb this year. My God, the future looks so bright for this franchise having JP at QB who can't even beat out Kelly fricken Holcomb.

[im4bflo]

JP has gotten 2 chances last year. And he has a chance this year. It's no ones fault but his own that that he has blown the first 2 chances and if he can't beat out Kelly Holcomb this year. My God, the future looks so bright for this franchise having JP at QB who can't even beat out Kelly fricken Holcomb.
So you think he got 2 great chances, and it was all his fault he failed?
It had nothing to do with the offense or play calling, or the stress of getting pulled if he didn't somehow make the plays work?
I don't call that great chances, but I hope he get's a better chance this year to either swim or drown, he needs game experience, and a lot more reps with the starters for more than a couple chances, which is what this thread is stating.
If Aikman got treated like JP, and got benched for his 1-15 (and they kept him in!) would he have become a HOF QB?
Do you understand the give him a year to grow concept?
What will we get out of a whole year with Holcomb? :down:

[Jan Reimers]

Until JP becomes like Aikman, Kelly, Favre, Manning, Palmer etc... you can't compare him to them. Most all of them came from big time college schools, playing against good competition and putting up outstanding numbers . They didn't play at crappy Tulane where JP did nothing special to begin with.

Right now the only ones JP can be compared to is the Leafs, Ware's, Johnson's, Klingler's, Smith's etc...of the NFL.
JP will never become ANY of those guys - good or bad - by sitting on the bench. Each QB you listed had far more than 8 starts to prove themselves. Some became greats, others were busts.

Most of us are simply saying we won't know with JP until he gets more than 8 starts under a halfwit coach.

If you judge any young QB to be a star, or a bust, based on 8 starts, I suggest your judgment is seriously premature.

[Jan Reimers]

Oh, TD, I'm not attacking you, because you're probably a great and highly intelligent guy.

But your posts concerning JP are really stupid.

[TacklingDummy]

Oh, TD, I'm not attacking you, because you're probably a great and highly intelligent guy.

But your posts concerning JP are really stupid.

Stupid because they are true and you don't want to believe it. It's ok to be a homer.

[im4bflo]

Stupid because they are true and you don;t want to believe it.
So what's your prediction of a year with Holcomb at QB?
And what would it do for the future of the team?

[TacklingDummy]

So you think he got 2 great chances, and it was all his fault he failed?
It had nothing to do with the offense or play calling, or the stress of getting pulled if he didn't somehow make the plays work?
I don't call that great chances, but I hope he get's a better chance this year to

Being named starter twice is 2 great chances. He also has a great chance this year. All he's got to do is beat out the crappy Holcomb. If JP can't beat out the crappy Holcomb you really have any faith that he will be the Bills future?

Play calling is a excuse. JP is the one who didn't excute the plays that were called.

If JP played well he wouldn't have to worry about being yanked, now would he?

[TacklingDummy]

So what's your prediction of a year with Holcomb at QB?
And what would it do for the future of the team?

I've already said they both suck. And the Bills future is Brady Quinn. :pray:

[The_Philster]

I've already said they both suck. And the Bills future is Brady Quinn. :pray:
and then in a year and a half when he struggles, you'll call him a bust, too :rolleyes:

[TacklingDummy]

and then in a year and a half when he struggles, you'll call him a bust, too :rolleyes:

Nope. Because next year when Quinn is drafted he will already be ahead of JP in development.

[The_Philster]

Nope. Because next year when Quinn is drafted he will already be ahead of JP in development.
:rofl: so how did you spend your lottery winnings?

[YardRat]

This stuff just isn't going to stop unless JP leads a team to the Super Bowl or becomes a HOFer. That's the only outcome that will 'satisfy' both sides. Even if he fails in Buffalo, and fails where ever else he may go, it'll always be someone else's fault. "Gee...too bad Mike Mularkey screwed up a young kid's entire life like that, isn't it?"

[im4bflo]

Being named starter twice is 2 great chances. He also has a great chance this year. All he's got to do is beat out the crappy Holcomb. If JP can't beat out the crappy Holcomb you really have any faith that he will be the Bills future?

Play calling is a excuse. JP is the one who didn't excute the plays that were called.

If JP played well he wouldn't have to worry about being yanked, now would he?
NO, only 2 starts is no where near enough time for a new QB to get his rhythm with a new offense in his first real year.
If he can't beat crappy Holcomb, no he won't be our future(duh).
But it's hard to know when he's on the bench, I believe you let him play a year, and you'll forget all about Holcomb.
The playcalling last year was discussed and questioned, by the Zoner's on this board, and could be a good excuse, didn't you think so?
He played well enough, until they started playing musical QB's, instead of hanging with him, but look where that coaching staff is now!
Let's not repeat that again!, Holcomb is a good 2nd stringer, JP was traded for, to be our future. What happened to that plan? Let the kid get used to playing more than 2 in a row, let him take his year of lumps, and then we'll absolutely, obviously know for sure, instead of wasting anymore time.
Back to the thread question... Aikman didn't play well his first year, so you say yank him? What would that of done to his career?
Please try answering my questions? I've answered your's, and for all my replys to you, you havn't answered any of mine, you've only through me questions.

[im4bflo]

I've already said they both suck. And the Bills future is Brady Quinn. :pray:
They don't suck, Holcombs a good 2nd man, and JP's going to be the man.

[im4bflo]

Nope. Because next year when Quinn is drafted he will already be ahead of JP in development.
:lmao: C'mon dude, with answers like that, you make me feel like I'm wasting my time with you.

[TacklingDummy]

NO, only 2 starts is no where near enough time for a new QB to get his rhythm with a new offense in his first real year.
But it's hard to know when he's on the bench, I believe you let him play a year, and you'll forget all about Holcomb.
The paycalling last year was discussed and questioned, by the Zoner's on this board, and could be a good excuse, didn't you think so?
He played well enough, until they started playing musical QB's, instead of hanging with him, but look where that coaching staff is now!
Let's not repeat that again!, Holcomb is a good 2nd stringer, JP was traded for, to be our future. What happened to that plan? Let the kid get used to playing more than 2 in a row, let him take his year of lumps, and then we'll absolutely, obviously know for sure, instead of wasting anymore time.
Back to the thread question... Aikman didn't play well his first year, so you say yank him? What would that of done to his career?
Please try answering my questions? I've answered your's, and for all my replys to you, you havn't answered any of mine, you've only through me questions.

1) JP has had 8 starts. Not 2.

2) I've already said JP should start this year all year. Well, maybe not all year. If he sucks the first 10-12 games. Its time to give up and let Nall have a chance. I just hate when posters bash Holcomb and praise JP. JP has done nothing special. The comparisons to Manning, Palmer, Kelly, Aikman have to stop. JP is none of them. Never has been and by the way he has played so far in his career he never will be.

3) Aikman was a #1 pick overall. He wasn't considered a project when he was drafted.

[TacklingDummy]

They don't suck, Holcombs a good 2nd man, and JP's going to be the man.

Only in your dreams. If Losman was a Dolphin or on any other team, you would say he sucks and be laughing at Miami for drafting him.

[im4bflo]

1) JP has had 8 starts. Not 2.

2) I've already said JP should start this year all year. Well, maybe not all year. If he sucks the first 10-12 games. Its time to give up and let Nall have a chance. I just hate when posters bash Holcomb and praise JP. JP has done nothing special. The comparisons to Manning, Palmer, Kelly, Aikman have to stop. JP is none of them. Never has been and by the way he has played so far in his career he never will be.

3) Aikman was a #1 pick overall. He wasn't considered a project when he was drafted.
Nice backpeddling, now I agree with you, now you'll give him 10-12 starts? RIGHT ON! That's what this thread was getting at!
And it's the only way to see if he's any better or a bust.
We agree now, :respect:

[The_Philster]

The comparisons to Manning, Palmer, Kelly, Aikman have to stop. JP is none of them. Never has been and by the way he has played so far in his career he never will be.
You know...kind of hard to take you seriously when you make statements like this. No one has said anything of the sort. The names are brought up to show those without a real knowledge of the history of the position that many great QBs have struggled mightily in their early careers as well. Quit making us repeat that

BTW, I can see from the fact that you're groaning at me for posts that have nothing to do with the debate that you're taking this personally. Maybe it's time you put me on ignore if you can't handle the heat for the stupid posts

[YardRat]

NO, only 2 starts is no where near enough time for a new QB to get his rhythm with a new offense in his first real year.


Two chances at starting, not two starts. I think everybody can at least agree that JP got more than two starts last year.



If he can't beat crappy Holcomb, no he won't be our future(duh).



Right. He needs to beat out Holcomb, not have the starting job handed to him, again, only this time for a full 16 game season. Someone is finally getting it.



But it's hard to know when he's on the bench, I believe you let him play a year, and you'll forget all about Holcomb.



Shoot. Just when I thought you were starting to grasp the concept of beat out. Make up your mind...does he have to win the job, or should he have it handed to him again?



The playcalling last year was discussed and questioned, by the Zoner's on this board, and could be a good excuse, didn't you think so?



It's a factor, but not as large of one as some would like it to be. Better play-calling can't compensate for a crappy pass to a covered receiver.



He played well enough, until they started playing musical QB's, instead of hanging with him, but look where that coaching staff is now!



No, he didn't. He had a decent first quarter against Houston, and then pretty much sucked the rest of that game and the next three. consecutively. That's a given.



Let's not repeat that again!, Holcomb is a good 2nd stringer, JP was traded for, to be our future. What happened to that plan? Let the kid get used to playing more than 2 in a row, let him take his year of lumps, and then we'll absolutely, obviously know for sure, instead of wasting anymore time.



Correct. Correct. The plan got derailed because JP didn't perform adequately enough to hold onto his job. He played more than two in a row. He needs to earn the opportunity to prove it isn't a waste of time.



Back to the thread question... Aikman didn't play well his first year, so you say yank him? What would that of done to his career?



Nobody knows how well or poorly Aikman played his first year unless you're a former member of the coaching staff, or willing to rely simply on stats (which don't tell the whole story as I've read here several times). Whose to say whether or not Aikman's stats didn't reflect his ability to read defenses, call the right audibles, make the right reads, etc? Whose to say that Aikman's mental capacity to play the game his first year blows JP out of the water, and that's why the coaches left him in? Comparing Aikman, or any other QB, to Losman is ridiculous.



Please try answering my questions? I've answered your's, and for all my replys to you, you havn't answered any of mine, you've only through me questions.


I realize this is directed at TD, but forgive me for taking a shot at it :D

[im4bflo]

Only in your dreams. If Losman was a Dolphin or on any other team, you would say he sucks and be laughing at Miami for drafting him.
In my dreams, he's the QB that win's us a SB, my only DREAM!
I know he hasn't showed his potential yet, I want to see it! If he doesn't get better, at least he got a decent shot is all I'm saying.
If he was a FISH:snicker2:, like EVERY Fish, past, present, and future, you bet I'd say he SUCKED and laugh at him!:roflmao:
That doesn't count.
He deserves the shot that Aikman and others got, is all I'm saying.
If Dallass treated Aikman like we treat JP, would he be in the HALL?
That was the threads question! :tap:

[YardRat]

You know...kind of hard to take you seriously when you make statements like this. No one has said anything of the sort. The names are brought up to show those without a real knowledge of the history of the position that many great QBs have struggled mightily in their early careers as well. Quit making us repeat that


I really wish you'd refrain from making comments that attempt to belittle anybody's knowledge of the game of football in general, the position of QB specifically.

Unless your real life persona is Bill Walsh or Don Coryell, you don't know any more, or any less, than any of the other fans on this board. Either get a grip, or get a job as a QB coach in the NFL.

[The_Philster]

In my dreams, he's the QB that win's us a SB, my only DREAM!
I know he hasn't showed his potential yet, I want to see it! If he doesn't get better, at least he got a decent shot is all I'm saying.some people don't seem to want to see it

If he was a FISH:snicker2:, like EVERY Fish, past, present, and future, you bet I'd say he SUCKED and laugh at him!:roflmao:
That doesn't count.it's called trash talk...which is pretty much automatic when dealing with division rivals like the Fish...pretty basic stuff :idunno:

He deserves the shot that Aikman and others got, is all I'm saying.
If Dallass treated Aikman like we treat JP, would he be in the HALL?
That was the threads question! :tap:not a chance in hell...the Cowboys had to show patience in him and were rewarded for it

[The_Philster]

I really wish you'd refrain from making comments that attempt to belittle anybody's knowledge of the game of football in general, the position of QB specifically.

Unless your real life persona is Bill Walsh or Don Coryell, you don't know any more, or any less, than any of the other fans on this board. Either get a grip, or get a job as a QB coach in the NFL.
I wish you'd actually read what I said before making comments.
History of the position is referred to with the fact that some great QBs struggled early in their careers like JP has. I never said anything about the science of being an NFL QB...only commented on the history that TDummy wants to ignore

[im4bflo]

Two chances at starting, not two starts. I think everybody can at least agree that JP got more than two starts last year.

Agree

Right. He needs to beat out Holcomb, not have the starting job handed to him, again, only this time for a full 16 game season. Someone is finally getting it.

16 game season, you're catching on.

Shoot. Just when I thought you were starting to grasp the concept of beat out. Make up your mind...does he have to win the job, or should he have it handed to him again?

He will eventually beat out the others, and get the playing time he deserves, do you have a better plan?

It's a factor, but not as large of one as some would like it to be. Better play-calling can't compensate for a crappy pass to a covered receiver.

A factor, means that it was a reason for possibly the receivers fault(maybe?)
A poor play called at the wrong time or situation, is a BIG factor.

No, he didn't. He had a decent first quarter against Houston, and then pretty much sucked the rest of that game and the next three. consecutively. That's a given.

He came off the bench when Kelly went down, and with the simpler scheme they had for Kelly, JP did pretty damn good.

Correct. Correct. The plan got derailed because JP didn't perform adequately enough to hold onto his job. He played more than two in a row. He needs to earn the opportunity to prove it isn't a waste of time.

So JP should just be a dump passer, play it safe, like KH to hold his job, and we can get rid of all our speed guys?

Nobody knows how well or poorly Aikman played his first year unless you're a former member of the coaching staff, or willing to rely simply on stats (which don't tell the whole story as I've read here several times). Whose to say whether or not Aikman's stats didn't reflect his ability to read defenses, call the right audibles, make the right reads, etc? Whose to say that Aikman's mental capacity to play the game his first year blows JP out of the water, and that's why the coaches left him in? Comparing Aikman, or any other QB, to Losman is ridiculous.

:blah:

I realize this is directed at TD, but forgive me for taking a shot at it :D
thanks for playing :snicker2:

[YardRat]

Please, phil...



The names are brought up to show those without a real knowledge of the history of the position


That's condascending crap...and you've played that card several times. Why take a shot at someone like that? You could have just as easily stated "The names are brought up to show that many great QBs have struggled mightily in their early careers as well." Couldn't you? Who the hell are you to judge how much football knowledge individual posters have?

[im4bflo]

Looks like if TDummy and YarDrat were coaching the Bills, we might as well sit this year out til draft day.
Unless you guys got a better plan than DJ's crew?
We'd like to hear it!

[The_Philster]

I notice you failed to bold a pretty important part of that sentence...and for the record, I named no names. If someone can't grasp the history of the position, then they should learn about it...something some people seem to refuse to do

as far as this comment

You could have just as easily stated "The names are brought up to show that many great QBs have struggled mightily in their early careers as well." Couldn't you?Many of us have stated that repeatedly in this and other threads...it's apparently not sinking in

[YardRat]

16 game season, you're catching on.


I didn't intend to indicate that I was in favor of starting JP and keep him in for the entire season. My bad for not being clear enough with my post.



He will eventually beat out the others, and get the playing time he deserves, do you have a better plan?



Maybe, maybe not...it's up to him. And I think giving JP the playing time he deserves (read: earned) is the best plan.



A factor, means that it was a reason for possibly the receivers fault(maybe?)
A poor play called at the wrong time or situation, is a BIG factor.



We'll just have to agree to disagree how large a factor play-calling was last year. I'm inclined to believe that JP's execution is a bigger factor than play-calling.



He came off the bench when Kelly went down, and with the simpler scheme they had for Kelly, JP did pretty damn good.



I wouldn't qualify anything JP did last year as pretty damn good, except for the first quarter against Miami. Adequate against Houston for a quarter, the rest of the year...very poor.



So JP should just be a dump passer, play it safe, like KH to hold his job, and we can get rid of all our speed guys?


Not at all...but he needs to bring his performance level up to the point where he can actually function.



Nobody knows how well or poorly Aikman played his first year unless you're a former member of the coaching staff, or willing to rely simply on stats (which don't tell the whole story as I've read here several times). Whose to say whether or not Aikman's stats didn't reflect his ability to read defenses, call the right audibles, make the right reads, etc? Whose to say that Aikman's mental capacity to play the game his first year blows JP out of the water, and that's why the coaches left him in? Comparing Aikman, or any other QB, to Losman is ridiculous.

:blah:



Valid point with no reply.


thanks for playing :snicker2:

I'm game :D<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[YardRat]

Unless you guys got a better plan than DJ's crew?


I'm willing to give 'DJ's crew' the benefit of the doubt and see how their plan works out, regardless of who starts at QB. Are you?

I'm not going to start pissing and moaning about who the QB is and what a bunch of dumb-asses the coaches are if they don't start a certain individual. Are you?

[YardRat]

I notice you failed to bold a pretty important part of that sentence...and for the record, I named no names. If someone can't grasp the history of the position, then they should learn about it...something some people seem to refuse to do

as far as this comment
Many of us have stated that repeatedly in this and other threads...it's apparently not sinking in

What apparently isn't sinking in is that for every Troy Aikman historical reference from those with superior football knowledge there are dozens of Akili Smith's and Andre Ware's.

JP Losman, just as every QB drafted before him, regardless of their success or failure, stands on his own in his own situation. Whether he succeeds or fails, regardless of the circumstances, is up to him.

Who knows phil...maybe ten years down the road you'll be expounding the virtues of using the "JP Losman model" for developing QB's :D

[Bill Cody]

Losman has 6 letters in his last name and the last three are man, same as Aikman. Other than that I can't think of anything those 2 have in common/will have in common.

[TacklingDummy]

BTW, I can see from the fact that you're groaning at me for posts that have nothing to do with the debate that you're taking this personally. Maybe it's time you put me on ignore if you can't handle the heat for the stupid posts

Heat from you? I enjoy making you my biatch.

The King of giving out groans is complaining about being groaned at. I find that funny. Cry me a river.

[im4bflo]

I didn't intend to indicate that I was in favor of starting JP and keep him in for the entire season. My bad for not being clear enough with my post.

So you want who to start? WHY? and is it a good move for the teams future? Post's are unclear:up:

Maybe, maybe not...it's up to him. And I think giving JP the playing time he deserves (read: earned) is the best plan.

Now you're agreeing again? (playing time he deserves) that's what I've been saying.

We'll just have to agree to disagree how large a factor play-calling was last year. I'm inclined to believe that JP's execution is a bigger factor than play-calling.

the playcalling was a factor on the boards, fans were questioning it, that's a fact. Also JP's execution was a factor, but he is new at this level, and I can deal with that, for a season.

I wouldn't qualify anything JP did last year as pretty damn good, except for the first quarter against Miami. Adequate against Houston for a quarter, the rest of the year...very poor.

Being in the situation he was in, with the team he had, he did pretty good, he can do better now, I believe very much. It's what he does now that matters

Not at all...but he needs to bring his performance level up to the point where he can actually function.

And to do that, he needs to play(where have I heard that before?)

Valid point with no reply.

How about a straight answer this time, you sounded like a politician with that:blah: but it looks like you said 'who knows?' Take a stab at it!

I'm game :D<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
thanks for playing, but what happened to TDummy? Are you his agent? :snicker2:

[im4bflo]

Losman has 6 letters in his last name and the last three are man, same as Aikman. Other than that I can't think of anything those 2 have in common/will have in common.
Please don't answer a thread you're totally clueless of what is being discussed, we're not comparing Troy to anybody, go do your homework, and then join in please.

[im4bflo]

Heat from you? I enjoy making you my biatch.
Funny, how you spell (biatch) just like the FISH TROLLS...???


The King of giving out groans is complaining about being groaned at. I find that funny. Cry me a river.
And the same fish troll attitude...???
do I smell a fish? :squish:

[The_Philster]

What apparently isn't sinking in is that for every Troy Aikman historical reference from those with superior football knowledge there are dozens of Akili Smith's and Andre Ware's.true...but the fact that there seem to be more failures than successes proves only that it's a crapshoot...it doesn't negate the fact that there have been successes


JP Losman, just as every QB drafted before him, regardless of their success or failure, stands on his own in his own situation. Whether he succeeds or fails, regardless of the circumstances, is up to him.True...for the most part. But we as fans, if we're to look knowledgeable, can't ignore history. "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" and all that jazz ;)


Who knows phil...maybe ten years down the road you'll be expounding the virtues of using the "JP Losman model" for developing QB's :D :laughter: Doubtful...but I am not a fan of how JP's been handled thus far

Heat from you? I enjoy making you my biatch.:roflmao: Look at my rep and look at yours


The King of giving out groans is complaining about being groaned at. I find that funny. Cry me a river.who's complaining? Just pointing out facts..something you avoid as much as possible. It's not like I hunt down someone's posts just to groan at them...I just groan at a lot of stupid ones..regardless of who makes them. Big difference...I groan at stupidity..you groan out of a personal dislike

[TacklingDummy]

Please don't answer a thread you're totally clueless of what is being discussed, we're not comparing Troy to anybody, go do your homework, and then join in please.

Actually the thread did stat with a Losman/Aikman fan comparison.

[TacklingDummy]

Look at my rep and look at yours

Big difference...I groan at stupidity..you groan out of a personal dislike

I bet my daddy can beat up your daddy. Like I care about rep?

Thats funny, I thought I was groaning at stupidity also.

[YardRat]

So you want who to start? WHY? and is it a good move for the teams future? Post's are unclear:up:


I'm not rooting for any individual to start...I'm willing to let the coaches make the choice, accept their decision as one that is best for the team both for the present and the future.



Now you're agreeing again? (playing time he deserves) that's what I've been saying.



He doesn't deserve it unless he earns it. On what merits does he deserve it at this point? Simply because he's a first round pick? Not good enough. This is about a team, not an individual.



the playcalling was a factor on the boards, fans were questioning it, that's a fact. Also JP's execution was a factor, but he is new at this level, and I can deal with that, for a season.



Since when do message board discussions correlate equally with actual games? Just because a bunch of fans 'believe' the play-calling sucked doesn't necessarily make it true.



Being in the situation he was in, with the team he had, he did pretty good, he can do better now, I believe very much. It's what he does now that matters



No, he didn't, IMO...he played poorly the great majority of the time. Can he do better now? Maybe, maybe not. He should, but whether or not he does remains to be seen.



And to do that, he needs to play(where have I heard that before?)



And to play, he needs to beat out a 'career back-up with a noodle arm'. If JP isn't capable of distinguishing himself from Holcomb on the practice field, then he doesn't 'deserve' the start on Sunday.



How about a straight answer this time, you sounded like a politician with that:blah: but it looks like you said 'who knows?' Take a stab at it!



Straight question...Who executed the mental part of the game better...Troy Aikman in his first year, or JP Losman last year?



thanks for playing, but what happened to TDummy? Are you his agent? :snicker2:


TD doesn't need an agent...he's doing just fine.

You were a Rob Johnson fan, weren't you?

[The_Philster]

I bet my daddy can beat up your daddy. Like I care about rep?Obviously not...or else you might start putting some actual thought into your posts


Thats funny, I thought I was graoning at stupidity also.whatever you say, EE Jr....you can go back on ignore...

[im4bflo]

I'm willing to give 'DJ's crew' the benefit of the doubt and see how their plan works out, regardless of who starts at QB. Are you?

I'm not going to start pissing and moaning about who the QB is and what a bunch of dumb-asses the coaches are if they don't start a certain individual. Are you?
I don't like the idea of going the easy rout with Holcomb, we did that, it sucked.
I like our coaches, and I'd like to see them let JP do what he was brought here for.
I don't want another year like last year, but I don't think it will happen, this staff won't repeat that waste of time :pray:

[TacklingDummy]

whatever you say, EE Jr....you can go back on ignore...

Fine with me, tired of your stupid post.

[YardRat]

I groan at stupidity

There you again...passing judgement. Just because you disagree with a post doesn't mean it's stupid...just a different opinion.

[TacklingDummy]

whatever you say, EE Jr....you can go back on ignore...

You gonna send me another email now complaining and asking me if im EEs butt buddy this time?

[The_Philster]

There you again...passing judgement. Just because you disagree with a post doesn't mean it's stupid...just a different opinion.
a post that shows signs of reading inability=stupid post, in my book :idunno:
Has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with it..If a poster actually shows that they put some thought into the post, I won't groan at it, call it a stupid post, etc...even if I disagree with it

Otherwise, I'd be groaning at more posts than I already am ;) :laughter:

[im4bflo]

Actually the thread did stat with a Losman/Aikman fan comparison.
And speaking of clueless(just joking!)
Aikman could be Manning, Palmer or etc...
the topic is JP not getting to play out his so called rookie year, and how he's getting jacked around and not getting that rough year chance that a lot of QB's got, and then florished into who they are.
I used Aikman because he went into the Hall this weekend, if they yanked him around in his first season like they did JP, would he have grown to be a HOF'er?
Why do I have to explain this every post?
And then they cry if you hint that they're 'a little slow' :idunno:

[YardRat]

I don't like the idea of going the easy rout with Holcomb, we did that, it sucked.


The 'easy route' was jettisoning Bledsoe and handing the job to JP, IMO. The harder road would have been to keep both Losman and Drew, and make JP beat Bledsoe out for the job.



I like our coaches, and I'd like to see them let JP do what he was brought here for.



They are. He was brought here to compete and, in their mind, hopefully earn, the starting QB position. He's getting that chance.


I don't want another year like last year, but I don't think it will happen, this staff won't repeat that waste of time :pray:

I don't think so either, and in all honesty I expect JP to be the starter on opening day and play deep into the season. Where the team goes from there at QB depends on how JP performs.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[im4bflo]

The 'easy route' was jettisoning Bledsoe and handing the job to JP, IMO. The harder road would have been to keep both Losman and Drew, and make JP beat Bledsoe out for the job.

I think back, and I was real happy when we got Drew, but even he struggled in the GW and MM's years, to the point that it didn't bother me at the time they let Drew go, but now I believe it was the coaching, and kind of wish we kept him. No wonder Losman had a tough time!

They are. He was brought here to compete and, in their mind, hopefully earn, the starting QB position. He's getting that chance.

I hope they make up their minds soon, and get him all the reps they can with the starters

I don't think so either, and in all honesty I expect JP to be the starter on opening day and play deep into the season. Where the team goes from there at QB depends on how JP performs.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
AGREED

[im4bflo]

I'm not rooting for any individual to start...I'm willing to let the coaches make the choice, accept their decision as one that is best for the team both for the present and the future.



He doesn't deserve it unless he earns it. On what merits does he deserve it at this point? Simply because he's a first round pick? Not good enough. This is about a team, not an individual.



Since when do message board discussions correlate equally with actual games? Just because a bunch of fans 'believe' the play-calling sucked doesn't necessarily make it true.



No, he didn't, IMO...he played poorly the great majority of the time. Can he do better now? Maybe, maybe not. He should, but whether or not he does remains to be seen.



And to play, he needs to beat out a 'career back-up with a noodle arm'. If JP isn't capable of distinguishing himself from Holcomb on the practice field, then he doesn't 'deserve' the start on Sunday.



Straight question...Who executed the mental part of the game better...Troy Aikman in his first year, or JP Losman last year?



TD doesn't need an agent...he's doing just fine.

You were a Rob Johnson fan, weren't you?
Dude, we're just going round and round, you sound like you agree with me, but won't admit it, JP needs to play, and he needs to play better, right!? That's what I'm saying, he needs to play. If you disagree, then have a good season anyway.
And that last question about Rob (throw the damn ball!!!) Johnson, at first, hell yeah, I was his fan! He was a BILL! But then the truth shows, and you wave bye-bye! JP's not RJ. But if he turns into an RJ, let's not think about it.

[Historian]

If he was a FISH:snicker2:, like EVERY Fish, past, present, and future, you bet I'd say he SUCKED and laugh at him!:roflmao:
That doesn't count.


:posrep:

[jmb1099]

Stupid because they are true and you don't want to believe it. It's ok to be a homer.
Personally I could care less if you ever change your mind on Losman, but the way you try to present your dislike of him is just nuts. 8 games, no matter who you are or where you come from, is not enough time to make an educated decision. So, for now your posts regarding Losman are stupid, not because they disagree with my point of view, but because they lack the evidence necessary to make your case. That is why many ae saying wait and see...not enough evidence available to make a good determination one way or the other. So if its ok to be a homer than I guess its ok to be a pre-mature decision maker which sounds much better than dummy I suppose.

[jmb1099]

Being named starter twice is 2 great chances. He also has a great chance this year. All he's got to do is beat out the crappy Holcomb. If JP can't beat out the crappy Holcomb you really have any faith that he will be the Bills future?

Play calling is a excuse. JP is the one who didn't excute the plays that were called.

If JP played well he wouldn't have to worry about being yanked, now would he?
So Losman had the power to make sure everyone else carried out their assingments? Sounds like the coach's job to me.

[jmb1099]

This stuff just isn't going to stop unless JP leads a team to the Super Bowl or becomes a HOFer. That's the only outcome that will 'satisfy' both sides. Even if he fails in Buffalo, and fails where ever else he may go, it'll always be someone else's fault. "Gee...too bad Mike Mularkey screwed up a young kid's entire life like that, isn't it?"
And if he succeeds you guys will credit the system, the players, poor competition, freakish alinging of the planets, poor officiating, high tides, global warming, and conflict in the middle east. Two way street sir.