You must want this team to struggle - Op

[Patrick76777]

False!


On the contrary, I want this team to flourish. However, I have no confidence in JP. From what I’ve seen, I don’t think he has what it takes to be an NFL QB. That being said, I’ve been wrong before and I’ll be wrong again. Although it sounds Cheesy, I’ll behind JP 110% if he wins the job. Wanting nothing more then to have him become the best QB in the NFL.

The problem is, I just don’t think he’s going to be any good. And I’m not willing (unlike many here) to sacrifice an entire NFL season just so that we can see if 1 guy can play or can’t play. IMO, if indications in Training camp and preseason point to the trend that JP can’t play and even more, can’t beat out KH, then I don’t see why we waste our time with him.

I understand that some QB’s need time to develop but at the same time, some guys play and play and play and remain terrible. How much time to we give someone. The JP fans want another 16 full games for a total of 24 games. A lot of NFL QB’s didn’t get 24 full games to determine their quality.

Wasting time? Again, the disagreement to this point is simply ideology. I just so happen to believe that a 9-7 season with KH starting CAN be considered a success. We have a very young team and it would be nice to start to develop winning attitudes. It’s not acceptable to me to say, “Let JP go all 16 and if he stinks and we finish 0-16 at least we’ll get the first overall pick”.

Holcomb fan? No, I’m not a Holcomb fan, I’m a Bills fan. And just like you I want what’s best for the team. It’s not uncommon that 2 people could have different views on what’s best for the team. And I understand your view and would hope for it’s success if it came to fruition. Please do not let my arguments fool you, simply because I don’t think JP is going to be any good, doesn’t mean I don’t like the guy and wouldn’t root for him. I think too often in this place we think that the other guy will get angry if their guy isn’t the pick. I’m guilty of that myself. If JP wins the job, I won’t care one bit. I’ll think that the coaches must have saw something and I’ll hope that I’ll see it soon.

It’s tough for me to see you guys doing the same thing but I’m sure you would. I tried to make an example of KH starting and going 4-0 but in true MB fashion the thread was beseeched with posts of “IT’LL NEVER HAPPEN” instead of us getting into a nice discussion. But I can’t imagine someone like Mikey or Phil for example sitting on his couch and getting angry because KH in week one is 26-30 for 325 yards and 3TD’s in a 38-3 rout of New England. I’m sure all of the JP fans would forget that he’s on the bench for just a few minutes and enjoy the game.

I’d prefer that Holcomb gets the job. If only because I like instant gratification and I strongly feel that in the early part of the season, we’re more likely to be in games with him at QB. But if JP wins the job, I’ll be there watching the games and hoping that it clicks and he totally makes me look like a jerk by proving me wrong.

[OpIv37]

If Holcomb gets us to 9-7 this year- which is a big IF- I'd have to consider that a success.

But then what? Holcomb's 33 and already has a weak arm. He's got 2 years left, maybe 3 tops. Do you want to be breaking in a new QB in two years when all these young guys we have should be coming into their own? When the OL and the D should finally be gelling and playing well? We're going to sacrifice all that with crappy QB play?

Either JP's the guy, or he's not. The sooner we know, the better off we'll be. Leaving him on the bench only prolongs this QB controversy and hence prolongs mediocrity.

[Patrick76777]

If Holcomb gets us to 9-7 this year- which is a big IF- I'd have to consider that a success.

But then what? Holcomb's 33 and already has a weak arm. He's got 2 years left, maybe 3 tops. Do you want to be breaking in a new QB in two years when all these young guys we have should be coming into their own? When the OL and the D should finally be gelling and playing well? We're going to sacrifice all that with crappy QB play?

Either JP's the guy, or he's not. The sooner we know, the better off we'll be. Leaving him on the bench only prolongs this QB controversy and hence prolongs mediocrity.


Like I said, I understand your point and see where you're coming from, I just don't agree with it. I think that I've seen enough to know already that JP doesn't have what it takes. So after this year, we try again. By drafting another guy, or signing a FA.

[OpIv37]

Like I said, I understand your point and see where you're coming from, I just don't agree with it. I think that I've seen enough to know already that JP doesn't have what it takes. So after this year, we try again. By drafting another guy, or signing a FA.


You think 8 games is enough? Have you seen all the stats about good QB's who were as bad or worse than JP through 8 games?

I disagree that you can accurately evaluate a QB after 8 games behind a ****ty OL on an offense that was poorly conceived by idiot coaches.

[justasportsfan]

False!


Although it sounds Cheesy, I’ll behind JP 110% if he wins the job. Wanting nothing more then to have him become the best QB in the NFL.

The problem is, I just don’t think he’s going to be any good. .

PAt some of us feel the same way about KH.

Funny thing is, I get blasted by JP fans when I say if JP can't beat KH, too bad. When I try to defend JP, I get crap from fans like you.

Either ways I'm screwed. :dance:

[Philagape]

There is no legitimate reason to believe JP will be a bust. His performance so far is not a legit reason because too many QBs have proven that a QB's first season is not indicative of anything.
And considering the condition of the rest of the team, we have nothing to lose by gambling. A mediocre season with Holcomb -- and with a 7-18 career record, he has NEVER shown he can deliver anything more -- would be an absolute pointless waste.

[Patrick76777]

You think 8 games is enough? Have you seen all the stats about good QB's who were as bad or worse than JP through 8 games?

I disagree that you can accurately evaluate a QB after 8 games behind a ****ty OL on an offense that was poorly conceived by idiot coaches.

Yes, we established that we disagree. Nothing we can do about that. You’re not going to change your mind and I’m not going to change mine. The only thing we can do is let it play out.

You ever watch WarGames? It's like we're playing "Global Thermonuclear War". or Tic-tac-Toe.

[Night Train]

Kelly Holcomb was an impressive 1-4 down the stretch last Dec.-Jan..

Boy, if that doesn't get the juices flowing...

[Patrick76777]

PAt some of us feel the same way about KH.

Funny thing is, I get blasted by JP fans when I say if JP can't beat KH, too bad. When I try to defend JP, I get crap from fans like you.

Either ways I'm screwed. :dance:


It's just people trying to defend thier points.

[Patrick76777]

There is no legitimate reason to believe JP will be a bust. His performance so far is not a legit reason because too many QBs have proven that a QB's first season is not indicative of anything.
And considering the condition of the rest of the team, we have nothing to lose by gambling. A mediocre season with Holcomb -- and with a 7-18 career record, he has NEVER shown he can deliver anything more -- would be an absolute pointless waste.


It's my opinion. That's the only legit reason I need for MY opinion.

[LtBillsFan66]

Great post Pat. I feel the same way.

[justasportsfan]

It's just people trying to defend thier points.
Problem is, "you're either with us or against us" here on BZ.

[OpIv37]

It's my opinion. That's the only legit reason I need for MY opinion.

opinions can be wrong. And I'd say there is significant evidence refuting your opinion that you can accurately judge JP after 8 games.

[Patrick76777]

Kelly Holcomb was an impressive 1-4 down the stretch last Dec.-Jan..

Boy, if that doesn't get the juices flowing...


That's not true!

He played the last 3 games at 1-2. JP lost the 4 prior to that.

[Patrick76777]

opinions can be wrong. And I'd say there is significant evidence refuting your opinion that you can accurately judge JP after 8 games.


We've already establised that we disagree.

[Patrick76777]

Problem is, "you're either with us or against us" here on BZ.


And that's what ends up happening.

For me, I'm going to get the coaches decide and be happy with it.

[shelby]

Like I said, I understand your point and see where you're coming from, I just don't agree with it.

PLEASE NOTE PEOPLE:

This is the proper way to debate someone with a differing opinion.

:bf1: Patrick, i respectfully disagree with your opinion about Holcomb, but you get :posrep: for being an ideal role model for everyone else on the boards.

{never thought i'd say that}:D

[justasportsfan]

For me, I'm going to get the coaches decide and be happy with it.that's what I feel like. However some people won't give our coaches decisions the benefit of the doubt because of their past record or our GM is too old.

I am however leanng towards JP starting the entire season if at the end of camp JP and KH are neck and neck. The only time KH starts is if he beats JP by a mile.

[OpIv37]

And that's what ends up happening.

For me, I'm going to get the coaches decide and be happy with it.

why do you have so much faith in the coaches? Given how bad the last few groups of coaches were, I'd say they have a lot to prove before anyone should have so much confidence in them.

[OpIv37]

that's what I feel like. However some people won't give our coaches the benefit of the doubt because of their past record or our GM is too old.



no one automatically deserves the benefit of the doubt- they have to earn it.

[justasportsfan]

no one automatically deserves the benefit of the doubt- they have to earn it.
How can they earn it when you wouldn't even give guys like Peerless the time of day by bringing him into camp, who BTW is doing great. :rolleyes:

Parrish is also looking great at camp. :rolleyes:

[Patrick76777]

why do you have so much faith in the coaches? Given how bad the last few groups of coaches were, I'd say they have a lot to prove before anyone should have so much confidence in them.


No choice. They're the pros, they're in charge, there making the decision. Why fight it.

Now I'm not saying that I won't fight it if the decision proves to be wrong, but I'm going to give them the benifit of the doubt at first.

If they pick QB -A and after four weeks QB - A is terrible and not getting the job done, I'll join the demanding of a change. But I'll give them a few weeks before I do that.

[OpIv37]

How can they earn it when you wouldn't even give guys like Peerless the time of day by bringing him into camp, who BTW is doing great. :rolleyes:

Parrish is also looking great at camp. :rolleyes:

they can earn it with wins, but don't automatically assume they're going to win until they prove they can. Don't automatically assume their decisions will be good until they have the wins to back it up.

Price hasn't done **** for 3 years. I don't know why it's so unreasonable to expect him to continue not doing **** until he proves otherwise.

[LtBillsFan66]

Problem is, "you're either with us or against us" here on BZ.
I think people (like me) take shots at the people who are on the extreme ends that makes it seem that way. Most people are sensible.

[Patrick76777]

PLEASE NOTE PEOPLE:

This is the proper way to debate someone with a differing opinion.

:bf1: Patrick, i respectfully disagree with your opinion about Holcomb, but you get :posrep: for being an ideal role model for everyone else on the boards.

{never thought i'd say that}:D


Thanks Shelby. I'm really not that bad of a guy.

[LtBillsFan66]

they can earn it with wins, but don't automatically assume they're going to win until they prove they can. Don't automatically assume their decisions will be good until they have the wins to back it up.

Price hasn't done **** for 3 years. I don't know why it's so unreasonable to expect him to continue not doing **** until he proves otherwise.
Granted it was from his own mouth, but Price had an interview on bb.com and he said the scemes he was in in Atlanta and Dallas were geared for 6'+ receivers. Not receivers like him-which is what our offense is going to use. I think PP is going to surprise a lot of people. He has a chip on his shoulder and has something to prove. He seems to have the right attitude.

[justasportsfan]

they can earn it with wins, but don't automatically assume they're going to win until they prove they can. Don't automatically assume their decisions will be good until they have the wins to back it up.

Price hasn't done **** for 3 years. I don't know why it's so unreasonable to expect him to continue not doing **** until he proves otherwise.
Price caught 90 passes w/ Doug Johnson and that's in his first year. The very next year, the got rid of Reeves and went with the WCO where tall players are more important than speedy players plus the Ron Mexico effect.

In Dallas they brought him in too late to even get acquainted w/ the O.

The point is, you cannot get a person to prove themselves if you don't bring them in. Wierd logic you got there.

If Peerless turns out to be a great no. 2. it was right to give him the benefit of a doubt. everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. Just like what you're doing w/ JP.

[OpIv37]

The point is, you cannot get a person to prove themselves if you don't bring them in. Wierd logic you got there.

but you can't make a team by bringing in a bunch of players who need to prove themselves because for every player that does prove themselves, there are two that don't.

Weird logic you got there. Call me crazy for preferring proven players.

And why is it that you always blame the system, the coach, the QB, etc and never the actual player? Has there ever been a Bills player that just wasn't good in your opinion? I guess once they put on the blue and red, it's everyone's fault but their own.

[justasportsfan]

I think people (like me) take shots at the people who are on the extreme ends that makes it seem that way. Most people are sensible.
I'm like that too. That's why I argue a lot w/ guys like ICE, OP, sometimes Moran and take skoobs opinion w/ a grain of salt because of his homerism.

[Jan Reimers]

There is no logic in starting Holcomb over JP.

We are not a good, veteran team, strong at every position and poised to win with a conservative, caretaker QB at the helm. Instead, we're a young and unsettled team building for the future. Advantage Losman.

Holcomb is not an aging but successful veteran QB who should keep a young, raw guy on the bench for another season. Holcomb has a mediocre track record and limited physical skills. JP has tons of upside. Advantage Losman.

Losman is a former 1st round pick for whom we gave up quite a bit. First round QBs need an opportunity to play. Holcomb is a known commodity - an not much of a commodity at that. Advantage Losman.

We have speed to burn at WR, and a less than stellar O line. JP has the arm to reach the fast receivers, and the mobility to shake free when his line gets beaten. Holcomb has neither. Advantage Losman.

Why do we want Holcomb again?

[OpIv37]

If Peerless turns out to be a great no. 2. it was right to give him the benefit of a doubt. everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. Just like what you're doing w/ JP.

no one deserves the benefit of the doubt until they earn it. If Peerless turns out to be good this year, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt next year. He has three years of sucking to atone for first.

[THATHURMANATOR]

False!


On the contrary, I want this team to flourish. However, I have no confidence in JP. From what I’ve seen, I don’t think he has what it takes to be an NFL QB. That being said, I’ve been wrong before and I’ll be wrong again. Although it sounds Cheesy, I’ll behind JP 110% if he wins the job. Wanting nothing more then to have him become the best QB in the NFL.

The problem is, I just don’t think he’s going to be any good. And I’m not willing (unlike many here) to sacrifice an entire NFL season just so that we can see if 1 guy can play or can’t play. IMO, if indications in Training camp and preseason point to the trend that JP can’t play and even more, can’t beat out KH, then I don’t see why we waste our time with him.

I understand that some QB’s need time to develop but at the same time, some guys play and play and play and remain terrible. How much time to we give someone. The JP fans want another 16 full games for a total of 24 games. A lot of NFL QB’s didn’t get 24 full games to determine their quality.

Wasting time? Again, the disagreement to this point is simply ideology. I just so happen to believe that a 9-7 season with KH starting CAN be considered a success. We have a very young team and it would be nice to start to develop winning attitudes. It’s not acceptable to me to say, “Let JP go all 16 and if he stinks and we finish 0-16 at least we’ll get the first overall pick”.

Holcomb fan? No, I’m not a Holcomb fan, I’m a Bills fan. And just like you I want what’s best for the team. It’s not uncommon that 2 people could have different views on what’s best for the team. And I understand your view and would hope for it’s success if it came to fruition. Please do not let my arguments fool you, simply because I don’t think JP is going to be any good, doesn’t mean I don’t like the guy and wouldn’t root for him. I think too often in this place we think that the other guy will get angry if their guy isn’t the pick. I’m guilty of that myself. If JP wins the job, I won’t care one bit. I’ll think that the coaches must have saw something and I’ll hope that I’ll see it soon.

It’s tough for me to see you guys doing the same thing but I’m sure you would. I tried to make an example of KH starting and going 4-0 but in true MB fashion the thread was beseeched with posts of “IT’LL NEVER HAPPEN” instead of us getting into a nice discussion. But I can’t imagine someone like Mikey or Phil for example sitting on his couch and getting angry because KH in week one is 26-30 for 325 yards and 3TD’s in a 38-3 rout of New England. I’m sure all of the JP fans would forget that he’s on the bench for just a few minutes and enjoy the game.

I’d prefer that Holcomb gets the job. If only because I like instant gratification and I strongly feel that in the early part of the season, we’re more likely to be in games with him at QB. But if JP wins the job, I’ll be there watching the games and hoping that it clicks and he totally makes me look like a jerk by proving me wrong.
Great post Patrick. The only thing that I disagree with is that I think Holcomb is Garbage too.

[justasportsfan]

no one deserves the benefit of the doubt until they earn it. If Peerless turns out to be good this year, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt next year. He has three years of sucking to atone for first.
So why draft players if you won't give them a benefit of a doubt that they can make it in the NFL? Why bother bringing them is if they haven't proven anything in the NFL?


LIke I said, how can they eran it if you aren't even willing to bring them in?

Fine then, if they haven't earned it, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Let's just cut JP. He hasn't earned it, he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Your logic.

Why bother giving people like BB,Vermiel,Marv a second chance? Bringing in players and coaches are risks whether they are proven or not. You do however have to give them the benefit of a doubt or you don't bring them in at all.

[OpIv37]

So why draft players if you won't give them a benefit of a doubt that they can make it in the NFL? Why bother bringing them is if they haven't proven anything in the NFL?


LIke I said, how can they eran it if you aren't even willing to bring them in?

Fine then, if they haven't earned it, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Let's just cut JP. He hasn't earned it, he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Your logic.

Why bother giving people like BB,Vermiel,Marv a second chance? Bringing in players and coaches are risks whether they are proven or not. You do however have to give them the benefit of a doubt or you don't bring them in at all.

drafting is completely different from FA's. At some point guys get too old to play the game and they have to be replaced somehow. Without drafting the league would be forcing itself into retirement. And every draft pick is just as unproven- you don't have a choice.

With FA's, you do have a choice. And you can't compare what a veteran receiver has done over 3 years with what a young QB has done over 8 games- it's apples and oranges.

Any player is a risk, but proven players are a lot less of one. If Price had 50 catches last year and 55 the year before, I'd expect 50 catches out of him. But that's not the case.

The coaches may have to give them the benefit of the doubt, or not bother bringing them in. We, as fans, have the luxury of not giving them the benefit of the doubt until they prove they deserve it. Assuming players/coaches can do things that they haven't proven they can do is just illogical.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Pat, I'm starting to have an unnatural man love for you, almost as much as I love Ozzie Guillen.

[justasportsfan]

drafting is completely different from FA's. At some point guys get too old to play the game and they have to be replaced somehow. Without drafting the league would be forcing itself into retirement. And every draft pick is just as unproven- you don't have a choice.

With FA's, you do have a choice. And you can't compare what a veteran receiver has done over 3 years with what a young QB has done over 8 games- it's apples and oranges.

Any player is a risk, but proven players are a lot less of one. If Price had 50 catches last year and 55 the year before, I'd expect 50 catches out of him. But that's not the case.

The coaches may have to give them the benefit of the doubt, or not bother bringing them in. We, as fans, have the luxury of not giving them the benefit of the doubt until they prove they deserve it. Assuming players/coaches can do things that they haven't proven they can do is just illogical.Fine, cut JP . He is unproven and hasn't done anything. He doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt.

[justasportsfan]

And why is it that you always blame the system, the coach, the QB, etc and never the actual player? Has there ever been a Bills player that just wasn't good in your opinion? I guess once they put on the blue and red, it's everyone's fault but their own.


What the hel are you talking about? Do you have selective memeory? Are you implying I am a homer about players because they are on the team?

BTW, why do you blame the system and coaches when it comes to JP?

[LtBillsFan66]

Op hates PP. You can't have an intelligent conversation with him about it.

[justasportsfan]

Op hates PP. You can't have an intelligent conversation with him about it.
Must spread .....

His logic is flawed and can't even see it.

[OpIv37]

What the hel are you talking about? Do you have selective memeory? Are you implying I am a homer about players because they are on the team?

BTW, why do you blame the system and coaches when it comes to JP?

for the LAST ****ING TIME. JP is a QB who's only had 8 starts- you've said it yourself, QB's take time to develop. it is NOT the same as a WR who's had 6 years in the league. Why is that concept so hard for you to grasp? Also, I've said that if JP doesn't play like a starting QB this year, he should be cut- I never blamed the coaches or the system- I blamed his lack of experience.

What I'm talking about is that you always defend players who aren't performing. It's never their fault- always someone else's.

[OpIv37]

Fine, cut JP . He is unproven and hasn't done anything. He doesn't deserve the benefit of a doubt.

there is no logical flaw.

Peerless Price has six years in the league. JP has had 8 games.

Taking a chance on a young player is not nearly the same level of risk as signing a vet who hasn't done anything in 3 years. Again, apples and oranges.

Your logic in comparing a young QB to a WR who's had plenty of time to prove himself is flawed.

[justasportsfan]

for the LAST ****ING TIME. JP is a QB who's only had 8 starts- you've said it yourself, QB's take time to develop. it is NOT the same as a WR who's had 6 years in the league. Why is that concept so hard for you to grasp? Also, I've said that if JP doesn't play like a starting QB this year, he should be cut- I never blamed the coaches or the system- I blamed his lack of experience.

What I'm talking about is that you always defend players who aren't performing. It's never their fault- always someone else's.



no one deserves the benefit of a doubt until he earns it

your words , not mine.

I do not defend players who aren't performing, I do give them the benefit of a doubt . There's always a second chance.

That's what auditions are all about. You bring em' in, see what they can do under the knew system. In your world, no such thing as an audition. You wouldn't have brought in Farve after 3 years of doing nothing. YOu would've cut Moulds after 2 years.

[justasportsfan]

there is no logical flaw.

.No sense in discussing what you can't see.

There's no second chance for you. Farve and Hasselback proves my logic isn't flawed. There are second chances.

[OpIv37]

your words , not mine.

I do not defend players who aren't performing, I do give them the benefit of a doubt . There's always a second chance.

That's what auditions are all about. You bring em' in, see what they can do under the knew system. In your world, no such thing as an audition. You wouldn't have brought in Farve after 3 years of doing nothing. YOu would've cut Moulds after 2 years.

once again- what's wrong with bringing in players who ARE performing? I'd rather find guys who don't need a second chance than be taking shots in the dark.

[OpIv37]

No sense in discussing what you can't see.

There's no second chance for you. Farve and Hasselback wouldn't be who they are if you made decisions.

****ing a.

QB's are NOT receivers. how many times do I have to ****ing say that to get it through your ignorant skull. QB's take TIME to develop- most other positions don't.

YOUR logic is flawed because you're comparing two dissimilar things.

I'm sorry if I want something better for my team than a bunch of guys who still have to prove themselves. I apologize for having standards.

[justasportsfan]

once again- what's wrong with bringing in players who ARE performing? I'd rather find guys who don't need a second chance than be taking shots in the dark. there's nothing wrong, but they cost a lot and are signed by other teams. Some of those proven players may not also fit the system. Price proved that under the WCO where tall players are more important. So what were you saying again about Peerless and his 3 years? He had 90 catches w/ Doug Johnson . You failed to address that.

What's wrong with bringing in someone for a look? I am going to be correct and you will be wrong about Peerless barring injuries.

[OpIv37]

there's nothing wrong, but they cost a lot and are signed by other teams. Some of those proven players may not also fit the system. Price proved that under the WCO where tall players are more important. So what were you saying again about Peerless and his 3 years? He had 90 catches w/ Doug Johnson . You failed to address that.

What's wrong with bringing in someone for a look? I am going to be correct and you will be wrong about Peerless barring injuries.

those 90 catches happened 5 years ago. That's a long time, especially in a contact sport in a position where speed matters. You can't just ignore everything that's happened since then.

I guess there's nothing wrong with bringing someone in for a look- there is something wrong with having high expectations for guys who need a second chance or still need to prove themselves.

As far as the WCO and "tall" players- well, maybe Warren Moon shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. I mean, there's no way he would have had those numbers in, say, a Bill Parcells offense. It was all the system- not him :rolleyes:.

[justasportsfan]

****ing a.

QB's are NOT receivers. how many times do I have to ****ing say that to get it through your ignorant skull. QB's take TIME to develop- most other positions don't.

YOUR logic is flawed because you're comparing two dissimilar things.

I'm sorry if I want something better for my team than a bunch of guys who still have to prove themselves. I apologize for having standards.nope, it's not flawed. How about Moulds. You would've cut him after 2 years of doing nothing .

Santana Moss was useless his first 2 years. Ward averaged 450 yds his first 3 years

Joey Galloway had 3 years of nothing.

Need I go one? BTW, they are all wr's. :D.

[OpIv37]

nope, it's not flawed. How about Moulds. You would've cut him after 2 years of doing nothing .

Santana Moss was useless his first 2 years. Ward averaged 450 yds his first 3 years

Joey Galloway had 3 years of nothing.

Need I go one? BTW, they are all wr's. :D.

but that's not what you said- you compared Price to QB's.

And were these guys still under contract, or were they brought in with those paltry numbers? Because Price was brought in- it's not like he was still here under his rookie contract like Moulds was.

And who where the other receivers on their team while they were doing nothing? Were these guys even given the opportunity to start?

There are mitigating factors here that you're not addressing.

[justasportsfan]

I guess there's nothing wrong with bringing someone in for a look- there is something wrong with having high expectations for guys who need a second chance or still need to prove themselves.

As far as the WCO and "tall" players- well, maybe Warren Moon shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. I mean, there's no way he would have had those numbers in, say, a Bill Parcells offense. It was all the system- not him :rolleyes:.

There you go. NOw I changed your mind about bringing in players and second chances.That just means you are now willing to give them the benefit of a doubt by bringing them in for a look. It took you this long but it was worth the wait :D

Where did I state that I expected things from Peerless?


Aha! When I said WCO I meant recievers, not qb's.

[justasportsfan]

but that's not what you said- you compared Price to QB's.

And were these guys still under contract, or were they brought in with those paltry numbers? Because Price was brought in- it's not like he was still here under his rookie contract like Moulds was.

And who where the other receivers on their team while they were doing nothing? Were these guys even given the opportunity to start?

There are mitigating factors here that you're not addressing.qb's, wr's , db, it about second chances. Since you weren't willing to use qb's as an example, I brought up wr's to make you happy.

Who cares if they were under contract. Posey is under contract , should we keep him even if he hasn't done anything in 4 years?

Who are the wr's on this team ? evans is not even proven. Thsoe mitgating factors apply to the players we have and have brought in that you are not willing to appply because it goes against you flawed logic :D.

[OpIv37]

There you go. NOw I changed your mind about bringing in players and second chances.That just means you are now willing to give them the benefit of a doubt by bringing them in for a look. :D

Where did I state that I expected things from Peerless?


Aha! When I said WCO I meant recievers, not qb's.

well you were blaming the system- if you blame the system for Price's failure, shouldn't you also credit it when they have success? Couldn't Price's 90+ catch season in 2002 be attributed to Gilbride's pass-happy offense as opposed to Price himself?

As far as bringing players in for second chances- I guess it has to be done sometimes, especially in the salary cap era. But it's not preferable and it's not going to put this team over the top. And it's not likely to bring results. I see signings like Peerless and my first thought is "Is this the best we can do? Isn't there anyone better out there?" Maybe there wasn't- I don't follow FA or the rest of the NFL like I follow the Bills- but this isn't the kind of move that inspires confidence in me.

[OpIv37]

qb's, wr's , db, it about second chances. Since you weren't willing to use qb's as an example, I brought up wr's to make you happy.

Who cares if they were under contract. Posey is under contract , should we keep him even if he hasn't done anything in 4 years?


according to your "benefit of the doubt" logic, yes we should. he deserves a second chance, right?

[justasportsfan]

well you were blaming the system- if you blame the system for Price's failure, shouldn't you also credit it when they have success? Couldn't Price's 90+ catch season in 2002 be attributed to Gilbride's pass-happy offense as opposed to Price himself?

As far as bringing players in for second chances- I guess it has to be done sometimes, especially in the salary cap era. But it's not preferable and it's not going to put this team over the top. And it's not likely to bring results. I see signings like Peerless and my first thought is "Is this the best we can do? Isn't there anyone better out there?" Maybe there wasn't- I don't follow FA or the rest of the NFL like I follow the Bills- but this isn't the kind of move that inspires confidence in me.

Yes Price's 90 catch season was attributed to Gilbride's downfield system. That's why it was logical to bring Price since Fairchild does have a downfield system. So bringing him in for a look wasn't wrong at all. I'm glad we agree. :D.

Glad you're seeing things my way meaning my logic isn't flawed :D.

[OpIv37]

Yes Price's 90 catch season was attributed to Gilbride's downfield system. That's why it was logical to bring Price since Fairchild does have a downfield system. So bringing him in for a look wasn't wrong at all. I'm glad we agree. :D.

Glad you're seeing things my way meaning my logic isn't flawed :D.

fitting the system doesn't mean he's talented enough and doesn't mean that he isn't washed up.

[justasportsfan]

according to your "benefit of the doubt" logic, yes we should. he deserves a second chance, right?yes he does. Anyone that fits the system should be given the benefit of a doubt. Rememebr when you said you can't compare player/coaches because they were under a different circumstance when they failed in the past? That statement should be applied to Peerless. He was under a different circumstance where his strengths wouldn't work under the WCO and Ron Mexico.

Now he's in a system that's supposed to cater to his strentghs, hence, he was brought in to see if he can thrive or if he's lost it. You cannot use the WCO to conclude that he cannot thrive in Fairchild's system.

[patmoran2006]

How about this..

THEY BOTH SUCK

[justasportsfan]

fitting the system doesn't mean he's talented enough and doesn't mean that he isn't washed up.
I agree. But how will you know unless you bring him in? Coaches all over the league do that allthe time OP. Are they wrong?

Drew Bledsoe hasn't done anything in his last 2years with the bills. Parcells brought him in and gave him a second chance to prove himself. Parcells gave him the benefit of a doubt. No I'm not comparing Drew to Price , I'm simply saying, coaches bring in players who they think has still something in the tank regardless of position. That's what Marv and Dick didand I have a feeling, Price we be back to his no. 2 form. Let's just "wait and see" :D .

[justasportsfan]

How about this..

THEY BOTH SUCKthank you for your great insight Mr. Respectacle sportswriter. I guess when shelby talked about good respectable posts, she wasn't talking about you.

[OpIv37]

Let's just "wait and see" :D .

well, we don't exactly have a choice, do we?

I'm really sick of off-season. I just want the games to start so some of these questions will finally be answered.

[justasportsfan]

well, we don't exactly have a choice, do we?

I'm really sick of off-season. I just want the games to start so some of these questions will finally be answered.
:up:

[mybills]

Nice post, Patrick. Don't worry, no matter how many times I read, "He's only played 8 games" in this thread, I realize you are at their practice, and you can see that JP isn't doing well. I too, just want to wait and see who the Bills go with. I'm also sure that if JP were doing great, you would tell us. :up:

[ICE74129]

Nice post, Patrick. Don't worry, no matter how many times I read, "He's only played 8 games" in this thread, I realize you are at their practice, and you can see that JP isn't doing well. I too, just want to wait and see who the Bills go with. I'm also sure that if JP were doing great, you would tell us. :up:

They why is it most of his reports are total opposites of mikeys? He is a JP hater and to be honest we can't trust his reports.

[patmoran2006]

thank you for your great insight Mr. Respectacle sportswriter. I guess when shelby talked about good respectable posts, she wasn't talking about you.
you can break it down all you want; at the end of the day this team is going nowhere until they get a real quarterback on this roster.

I'm hoping to land a Drew Brees or Culpepper kind of impact QB via FA next season..Unless we finish last in which we'll get Brady Quinn.

[shelby]

Op, you're going to stroke out at a young age, honey, and i worry about you.

[mybills]

They why is it most of his reports are total opposites of mikeys? He is a JP hater and to be honest we can't trust his reports.
I don't know why, nor do I care. He sounds like he cares more about the Bills as a team, and so do I. :up:

[Patrick76777]

Nice post, Patrick. Don't worry, no matter how many times I read, "He's only played 8 games" in this thread, I realize you are at their practice, and you can see that JP isn't doing well. I too, just want to wait and see who the Bills go with. I'm also sure that if JP were doing great, you would tell us. :up:


I actually only went to one practice and he was good that night.

[Iehoshua]

Nice post, Patrick. Don't worry, no matter how many times I read, "He's only played 8 games" in this thread, I realize you are at their practice, and you can see that JP isn't doing well. I too, just want to wait and see who the Bills go with. I'm also sure that if JP were doing great, you would tell us. :up:
We should sign Rob Johnson. He's FABULOUS during practice! That will translate to wins, too!

Right?

:dizzy:

[raphael120]

What we have in our QB lineup, if fused together, would make a pretty bad @ss QB.

Losmans got the totally radically tubular arm, and Holcombs got the big head with all that thur good football thunkin head on his dang nab shoulders, and Nalls got the pretty smile.