Two observations from Buffalo's weekend cuts

[YardRat]

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/2006/09/buffalo-bills-cuts040906.html

"Head coach Dick Jauron is still loyal to respected veterans, perhaps a little too much."

Among the Bills' non-cuts this past weekend were current starting free safety Troy Vincent (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=2225&team=2) and reserve running back Anthony Thomas (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5485&team=2). Despite being clearly outplayed by various youngsters in training camp and preseason, Jauron, known as a "veterans' coach," kept these two experienced but overrated performers.

The 35-year-old Vincent has lost just about everything that made him a five-time Pro Bowler throughout his career, including the ability to make a tackle. Rather than bringing down the ball carrier, the 15th-year man does his best imitation of a bullfighter on the field, dodging the enemy offender. Somehow, though, Vincent made the team over a player 11 years his junior, the promising Rashad Baker (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7031&team=2), who was a surprise cut.

As for Thomas, he was easily outdone during the preseason by the young Lionel Gates (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7412&team=2), but it was Gates who felt the wrath of the dreaded Sept. 2 cutdown day. Though he didn't look like a great back at any point this summer, Gates fought hard for two exhibition touchdowns and looked like a legitimate backup behind Willis McGahee (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=6359&team=2).

"Buffalo will continue highly valuing its top-flight special teams unit."

Perhaps the most surprising non-cut the Bills ended up making (or, not making) was the decision to keep fifth-year safety Coy Wire (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5983&team=2). Though the 27-year-old is a weak link when he has to play on defense, the former third-round pick is a tremendous special teams performer. Over the last two seasons, thanks in no small part to Wire, the Bills' special teams unit has ranked No. 1 in the NFL.

Buffalo easily could have released Wire to make way for a promising defensive back (CB Eric King (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7332&team=2), etcetera), but the special teams aspect, although overlooked, does make up one-third of the game of football. By deciding to keep Wire, it's obvious Jauron will continue thinking highly of assistant head coach/special teams Bobby April's opinion. Rightfully so, considering April may far and away be the league's top ST coach.

Accompanying Wire on the non-cut/special teams list was 5-foot-7, 193-pound running back Shaud Williams (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7034&team=2). The third-year man from the University of Alabama is a major liability on the offensive side of the ball, but Buffalo values his contributions on special teams and in practice during the week.

[Mitchy moo]

DJ cut a few vets this year, this guy is high.

[clumping platelets]

Vincent is a much better mentor to Ko Simpson than Baker could ever imagine being :shakeno:

As for Thomas, I like the fact we have a veteran behind Willis.......however, I would have kept Gates over S. Williams

[Historian]

Marv's achilles heel is that he's loyal to a fault.

Seen it in the past with players as well as assistant coaches.

[YardRat]

Marv's achilles heel is that he's loyal to a fault.

Seen it in the past with players as well as assistant coaches.

If that loyalty puts us back in the Super Bowl in the near future, I'll take it.

I think the author is off-base on Vincent and maybe even Wire to a certain extent. We need Troy for at least this year, until the '06 draft picks get a year under their belt and Wire is a necessary evil at safety until Bowen gets healthy. It's a bonus that he's a good STer.

I agree with him on Gates and Baker, though...we should have kept both IMO.

[G. Host]

PFT = Pro Football Trash

[Don't Panic]

I think this post is pretty right on. Haven't seen enough of Vincent to echo the thoughts there, but it will be interesting to see if he is failing to make tackles during the season. He does serve as a great mentor to Simpson, though, so maybe that was the thinking in keeping him. Thomas over Gates is hard to justify in my opinion, but so be it. I'll always remember that flip Gates did... if that one play doesn't get you on a team (in the sense that they said Andre Davis' one play earned him his spot), then I don't know what does. The ST stuff isn't so much a knock as it is a justification of why those guys were kept. I have very little problem with that, either (although I was surprised we let Baker go and kept Wire). Real365 is pretty right on in my opinion. I tend to agree with a lot of their perspective, many times before even knowing the source. That's true once again here.

[Jan Reimers]

We do need a few veterans and Vincent will be an on-field coach for Whitner and Simpson. While Gates was a surprise cut, the other tough cuts were virtually all ST-driven. Marv and Dick are great believers in strong special teams.

I don't think you can criticize a coach too much for keeping veterans when he keeps 10 rookies and 21 new players in all, and has only 7 guys 30 or older on the roster.

[patmoran2006]

I agree with keeping Vincent, and for ST and practice contributions, I dont have a problem with Shaud Williams sticking either.

The only thing I have a problem with is keeping Coy Wire over Rashad Baker.. Wire SUCKS and Bowens is more than good enough to take his spot on ST.. Baker had some coverage ability.. we better pray Wire never has to step out there on defense.

[Historian]

If that loyalty puts us back in the Super Bowl in the near future, I'll take it.

.

That loyalty lost us four Super Bowls, Rat.

Walt Corey? Dick Roach? Ring a bell?

Look, That type of high character is sorely lacking in American business nowadays, much less in the NFL. I admire Levy for it, I really do.

But I think there's a difference between loyalty to a veteran player, (ala Vincent) who can be a defacto coach on the field, thereby increasing his value, and loyalty to a veteran who hasn't done squat in four seasons.

I understand we had turnover. Believe me, I was one of the ones *****in the loudest when Williams and Donahoe cut guys like Jones, Holicek, et al....mainly because they still had skills to offer.

But this crowd...I have to wonder. Seriously.

[The_Philster]

Believe me, I was one of the ones *****in the loudest when Williams and Donahoe cut guys like Jones, Holicek, et al....mainly because they still had skills to offer.
don't even get me started on Holocek :mad: I had just gotten his jersey a few months before he left. :fit:

[justasportsfan]

I would've kept Baker and signed someone on the practice squad like DiGiorgio and once Bowens is 100% cut Wire and put DiGiorgio to the active roster.

[Devin]

Actually I think the guy is pretty spot on.

[North_Coast]

This article is bull manure. How many coaches wouldn't prefer a veteran over a rookie or second year player? More importantly, if Levy and Jauron were so loyal to veterans, why did they sign Craig Nall? Why is JP Losman starting? Why didn't they go out and sign some veteran QB they knew if they didn't like Holcomb?

Neither Vincent nor Wire are Marv's "guys", so where's the loyalty coming from? Some have argued that Thomas was kept over Gates because he's Jauron's "guy", but c'mon, boys and girls, that's one player out of 53 -- and Thomas is a better blocker and better STer than Gates -- as is Shaud Williams. In fact, if there's a common thread here, it's that all around skills and excellence on ST really counts for the Bills.

As for Troy Vincent, I think the defense has a bunch youngsters on it, especially the secondary, and the coaches seem to believe they need somebody out there to act as coach/mentor.

Besides, it's unlikely that the Bills are going to make the playoffs, so keeping a veteran as a "mentor" or for his ST skills isn't exactly jeopardizing the post season -- and, who knows? Maybe, like in 2004, the Bills will win a couple games because of stellar ST play.

[madness]

Wow, this article couldn't be further from the truth. Just another hack taking shots at Jauron because of his "track record".

1. Didn't Vincent have surgery on his shoulder in the off season? Don't you think that would have affected his tackling ability last year? I shouldn't even have to mention the value he brings to this team with his knowledge. He has even gone on record as saying he'd still wouldn't hold back teaching if he lost his starting position! Why would you cut somebody with that kind of character that can still play? Oh and forget the obvious fact that nobody has been able to beat him out for the position yet.

2. Coy Wire was kept for his outstanding ST skills and for depth. We have a rookie at SS and an injury-prone vet (who's injured) backing him up. Yes let's cut Wire and keep an extra FS instead. Trust me I wouldn't be thrilled at all if the guy was in the starting lineup but last time I checked, that's not why he's still here.

3. A-Train was making the roster not because of some blood brother pact made w/ Jauron but because we needed an experienced power runner. Shaud, another ST demon, gives Fairchild another weapon out of the backfield. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 2 back set w/ him and Willis sometime this year. Fairchild, an ex RB coach, obviously wouldn't have a clue about RB depth.

4. Apparently he didn't get the memo. "Bills keep 20 new players"! Loyalty to veterans? Doesn't that usually imply veterans that have been on the team? WTF would you sign veterans in the off season for if you didn't plan on keeping them?

5. Oh and for those you trying to create an argument for keeping a promising player, this is absolutely the best way to start. "Though he didn't look like a great back at any point this summer..."

[L.A. Playa]

you need some veterans for leadership purposes a

[shelby]

i am glad Wire didn't get cut!:phew:

:D

[Jan Reimers]

i am glad Wire didn't get cut!:phew:

:D
And we (at least some of us) are glad for you.:bandwagon

[THATHURMANATOR]

As for Thomas, he was easily outdone during the preseason by the young Lionel Gates, but it was Gates who felt the wrath of the dreaded Sept. 2 cutdown day. Though he didn't look like a great back at any point this summer, Gates fought hard for two exhibition touchdowns and looked like a legitimate backup behind Willis McGahee.

The above quote kind of contradicts itself.

Honestly I am happy we kept the A train.

[ICE74129]

Marv's achilles heel is that he's loyal to a fault.

Seen it in the past with players as well as assistant coaches.

And so is Jauron. Villarial should have been cut this offseason but wasn't. Vincent as a mentor...fine. But he shouldn't be starting. and I agree with the writer, letting Baker go was stupid. Keeping Wire instead of King was stupid.

Gates being gone and Shaud still here is again a bad move. Jauron and marv are making some very questionable moves so far.

[OpIv37]

And so is Jauron. Villarial should have been cut this offseason but wasn't. Vincent as a mentor...fine. But he shouldn't be starting. and I agree with the writer, letting Baker go was stupid. Keeping Wire instead of King was stupid.

Gates being gone and Shaud still here is again a bad move. Jauron and marv are making some very questionable moves so far.

I think Villarial SUCKS but who would we have kept in his place? Greg Jerman? Geisingengerounger?

I really hope they find a replacement for him in the off-season next year.

[RedEyE]

I agree AND disagree...

While I agree about the author's questions about specific players, I tend to disagree with his malicious intent to pin a trend on Juaron.

Vincent is a necessity at this point and time. There might be some upcoming talent behind him on the roster, but his experience outwieghs all those looking up at him on the depth chart. Let's test the youth first before labeling them superstars.

While I don't think Thomas should have been cut, I think that the author was right in Gate's performance and should have made the team. Burn's who has contributed just as much as any other back up has come up lame and would been better served walking papers...or limping papers, whatever the case may be.

Wire has been valuable on ST, but his perfomrance on defense has been anything but spectacular. I love having a Steve Tasker type of guy on the team but Wire is a far cry from Tasker's style of play.

[Saratoga Slim]

Agreed, this should be Villarial's last as a starter, he's too creaky.

Cutting Vincent would have been stupid, but I do think they should have found a way to keep Baker, perhaps as Justa suggested by knocking someone to the practice squad until Bowen gets better and then cutting Coy. Ko Simpson has a ton of promise, but he's too raw to be the only true free safety on the roster in the likely event that Vincent gets hurt.

[finsrclowns]

The 35-year-old Vincent has lost just about everything that made him a five-time Pro Bowler throughout his career, including the ability to make a tackle. Rather than bringing down the ball carrier, the 15th-year man does his best imitation of a bullfighter on the field, dodging the enemy offender. Somehow, though, Vincent made the team over a player 11 years his junior, the promising Rashad Baker (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7031&team=2), who was a surprise cut.

It's a rebuilding year IMO. I would have kept Baker over Vincent.


As for Thomas, he was easily outdone during the preseason by the young Lionel Gates (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7412&team=2), but it was Gates who felt the wrath of the dreaded Sept. 2 cutdown day. Though he didn't look like a great back at any point this summer, Gates fought hard for two exhibition touchdowns and looked like a legitimate backup behind Willis McGahee (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=6359&team=2).
Not really sold on Gates but A-Train doesn't have much left. I could easily be persuaded to keep Gates over A-Train.


Perhaps the most surprising non-cut the Bills ended up making (or, not making) was the decision to keep fifth-year safety Coy Wire (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5983&team=2). Though the 27-year-old is a weak link when he has to play on defense, the former third-round pick is a tremendous special teams performer. Over the last two seasons, thanks in no small part to Wire, the Bills' special teams unit has ranked No. 1 in the NFL.

Buffalo easily could have released Wire to make way for a promising defensive back (CB Eric King (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7332&team=2), etcetera), but the special teams aspect, although overlooked, does make up one-third of the game of football. By deciding to keep Wire, it's obvious Jauron will continue thinking highly of assistant head coach/special teams Bobby April's opinion. Rightfully so, considering April may far and away be the league's top ST coach.

King >Wire


Accompanying Wire on the non-cut/special teams list was 5-foot-7, 193-pound running back Shaud Williams (http://realfootball365.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7034&team=2). The third-year man from the University of Alabama is a major liability on the offensive side of the ball, but Buffalo values his contributions on special teams and in practice during the week.

Williams is not that bad. I don't disagree with keeping him. But I agree with the other 3 comments.

[TedMock]

Cutting Vincent would have been stupid, but I do think they should have found a way to keep Baker, perhaps as Justa suggested by knocking someone to the practice squad until Bowen gets better and then cutting Coy. Ko Simpson has a ton of promise, but he's too raw to be the only true free safety on the roster in the likely event that Vincent gets hurt.

I agree with you on both points. Yes, this is a rebuilding year. However, that doesn't mean we have to dump every veteran. Look at the DB's in Philly who played under Vincent. My buddy at work (from Philly) absolutely LOVES Vincent. He claims Vincent was well known as a great teacher to younger players while in Philly. Apparently these guys were always crediting Vincent for showing them the ropes. I like Ko Simpson quite a bit, but he is raw. Why not let him learn from a possible hall of famer?

As for Baker, I have mixed feelings. First he's a FS, not a SS, so he'd be behind Vincent and Simpson. However, if there was any way to convert him to SS, I would gladly give him the opportunity. He can't be any worse than Coy Wire. I like Wire, but he's just not that good outside of run support. I know he's a good special teamer, but so is Bowen, and Bowen is a better defensive player. We would have lost nothing putting Bowen on special teams. Of course Bowen was injured which, in my opinion, saved Wire's job.

[finsrclowns]

I agree with you on both points. Yes, this is a rebuilding year. However, that doesn't mean we have to dump every veteran. Look at the DB's in Philly who played under Vincent. My buddy at work (from Philly) absolutely LOVES Vincent. He claims Vincent was well known as a great teacher to younger players while in Philly. Apparently these guys were always crediting Vincent for showing them the ropes. I like Ko Simpson quite a bit, but he is raw. Why not let him learn from a possible hall of famer?



And yet Philadelphia released him thinking his best days were behind him. That was two years ago. Vincent's a pro's pro and a good guy and I don't debate the quality of his career. If we were knocking on the door for a championship I could buy the veteran leader, teacher for the kids argument. We're not. Quite frankly Lawyer Milloy's probably got a tad more left in the tank and I applauded the move to send him packing. 35 year olds on defense are a liability, especially at speed positions. There ain't many Darrell Green's. As for teaching the young guy's, the two greatest teachers are coaches and experience. If Vincent wants to retire and coach our DB's I'd be in favor of that.

[TedMock]

And yet Philadelphia released him thinking his best days were behind him. That was two years ago. Vincent's a pro's pro and a good guy and I don't debate the quality of his career. If we were knocking on the door for a championship I could buy the veteran leader, teacher for the kids argument. We're not. Quite frankly Lawyer Milloy's probably got a tad more left in the tank and I applauded the move to send him packing. 35 year olds on defense are a liability, especially at speed positions. There ain't many Darrell Green's. As for teaching the young guy's, the two greatest teachers are coaches and experience. If Vincent wants to retire and coach our DB's I'd be in favor of that.

Philly was right to release him at the time, but I don't think it was because of his play. He and Bobby Taylor were pro-bowlers at the time. The young guys were ready, and cheaper. Buffalo's situation is different. Although he's lost a step, we have to keep him for one more season. For the coach-ability factor. Even with a lost step, he still led the team in pick...not saying much, I know. I think it's mandatory he be here this year, but also that he be released after the year.

[BillsFever21]

Not the Lionel Gates thing again. This guy will never amount to anything.

He was such a wanted player he was signed by Tampa Bay...to their practice squad.

Get over it. Gates is nothing special. Neither is Shaud Williams but he has skills to offer on ST's and can catch out of the backfield.

After this year everyone will forget about Gates. There are a couple players every year that some Bills fans overvalue. Gates was the guy this year.

If he was so good he would be on an active roster and not the practice squad.

[TigerJ]

PFT = Pro Football Trash


Huh? Real Football is a different animal. Different wevbsites, different personalities. You'll get a lot of people agreeing with your statement, including me, but it doesn't apply to this thread. Conner Byrne, the usual writer on Bills stuff at Realfootball, is usually OK He's written some stuff I disagree with, but he's also written a lot of stuff I like. Regarding loyalty to veterans, I think the article is generally close to the mark. Whether or no that is the right posture this year on the veterans Jauron kept remains to be seen.

[TigerJ]

I think Villarial SUCKS but who would we have kept in his place? Greg Jerman? Geisingengerounger?

I really hope they find a replacement for him in the off-season next year.

Gee, his replacement is probably on the practice squad now. Robin Meadow is a future hall of famer, don't you think?

[mybills]

Not the Lionel Gates thing again. This guy will never amount to anything.

He was such a wanted player he was signed by Tampa Bay...to their practice squad.

Get over it. Gates is nothing special. Neither is Shaud Williams but he has skills to offer on ST's and can catch out of the backfield.

After this year everyone will forget about Gates. There are a couple players every year that some Bills fans overvalue. Gates was the guy this year.
:10: :bf1: