Busy week in Indy...

[Ingtar33]

Just wanted to let you all know that I haven't dropped off the face of the planet, last week/weekend was fairly busy, with some of our staff in Indy, some working on tapes, ect... anyway there were few surprises to report, some rumors floating around about PP, and a few other tidbits.

Anyway, after a brief run thru the site it looks like most of what I heard or saw at the combine was reported here... for example, there was much "water cooler" speculation about the Bills and what they'll do with PP.

It still was nice to get to meet some of the players, and get a feel for their abilities...

a few small points...

Thanks to the Bucs win in the super bowl, a premium has been placed on DL play, and as a result we will see a heavy interest by NFL teams to strengthen their DLs.

While I know its been reported that DL is a strength in this draft, I just don't see it... The depth (amount of B grade players) at DE is deeper this year (last year's draft had little depth), however the DE quality (number of true blue chippers) doesn't match last years draft, which makes the two drafts a wash for comparison... meanwhile both the quality and quantity isn't there for the DT's this year. Last year we saw 4 DTs (and 6 DL total) go in the first 15 picks; we shouldn't see that this year.

As a result, the Bills may have a good find fall to them in the second round at DE... unfortunately I can read the winds fairly well, and I think there might be a run on DLmen of all shapes and sizes this year, causing many players to be picked well above their actual value... and leaving bare pickings when we get to the board.

Kyle Boller (QB) probably improved his lot the most with the combine, he wasn't even in my top 5 QBs going into Indy, but he showed so good (with the senior bowl and his physical workout at the combine) he might have eaked his way into the late first early second round. Personally, I wasn't that impressed as some appeared to be (I have him rated 4th on my list of QBs), but to each his own I guess…

The buzz for the week was supplied when Deon Sander's combine record (in the 40 yard dash) was broke by Justin Fargas (RB, USC) who ran a 4.28 40, and probably catapulted himself into contention for a first day selection.

The OLB position is full of fast/quick athletes, and Boss Bailey secured a first round selection at Indy (maybe a top 10)… he has run one of the fastest 40times (didn't run in Indy), and had a 48inch vertical leap (NBA quality, and if true is by far the best at the combine from what I could see) and to give you an idea what the league is saying about him, I’ve heard him compared favorably to Derrick Brooks… the MLB post on the other hand is a little disappointing as there is not much after Henderson.

[Romes]

Thanks for the update Ing. :up:

What where some of the rumors floating around about PP?

[Ingtar33]

Same stuff that’s here... you know, Bills franchised him to be traded or signed... Atl being interested in trading for Price... I heard people speculate that the Bills wouldn't trade Price without a king’s ransom, and others say that there would be no king’s ransom because the draft and FA were thick with quality WR...

As I said, the same stuff that’s here.

[Ingtar33]

oh yah... one small thing...

The guy Boller replaced in my top 5 QBs was Ken Dorsey... Dorsey, unfortunately for him, probably ruined his chance at getting drafted at all with his poor throwing display at the combine... and I must admit his throwing surprised me, because I had him pegged as a sure 3rd rounder and have seen him 5 times now in his career. This is one of the more egregious and embarrassing talent evaluating mistakes in my career, and I thank god it was one I never actually made (since my opinion hasn’t led to a bad draft pick)…

Personally, I still think he has what it takes to make it in the NFL (as a WCO QB), but when coupling his poor arm strength with poor accuracy... it will be hard for an NFL team to use a draft pick on him.

[Dozerdog]

Knowing the Bills weaknesses on Dand knowing what value will probably be available- who do you see / hope the Bills have a shot at in Rd #2?

[Dozerdog]

BTW- Nice report!!:up:

[Ingtar33]

Well, this is kinda a wild pick, but I don't think there will be a good enough DE or DT left on the board when the Bills pick to justify a second rounder... which leaves three possible positions OLB, FS, and TE...

OLB would be my first guess, and if he lasts this long I think the Bills could go for Bradie James (OLB, LSU), who has a fast lateral game, plays WLB, and sheds blockers... he reminds me of Sam Cowart (about the same size/speed, and block shedding ability). Furthermore he's a smart guy, and would be an asset. TD is known for taking smart good guys, and tends to shy from underclassmen, which makes a James selection a lock (if he lasts this long).

If James is gone, I can't see the Bills taking an OLB (as while I like the depth, I think a high/mid second might be too high for most of the rest of the OLBs as there are a lot of them who should go in the third round).

So that leaves FS and TE...
I think the Bills would lean towards a FS, as I'm not a fan of this year's TE after Teyo Johnson (who wouldn't last till round two). That would leave a strange pick, Rashean Mathis (D1-AA) who I feel would be a sort of project FS... He's fast and ideal size for an NFL FS, can catch (had 14 INTs last season, a D1-AA record) was division 1-AA defensive player of the year, and is an amazing kick returner.

Of course this is all fortune teller stuff…

[Romes]

Hey Ingtar,

I was talking with SoCal the other day and he was saying that if we pick a FS with our 2nd round pick that we take a look at Troy Paluamala. What are your assesments of him? Would he fit in our system?

[Ingtar33]

IMHO: There is no way Troy would fall to the second round (and before you ask the same goes for Doss)

[venis2k1]

Where do you see Colin Cole going???

[SoCalBillsFan]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
IMHO: There is no way Troy would fall to the second round

a guy can dream can't he?

[Ingtar33]

Cole... oh you’re testing my memory now... Iowa right?

If I recall correctly, He's a classic tweener (DE/DT), small for an NFL DT, a bit big/slow for DE... he has struggled with injuries, and has a good first step. Probably late second day, as I don't think I remember anything remarkable about him.

[Ingtar33]

Originally posted by SoCalBillsFan


a guy can dream can't he?

sure can... hey, you're aren't wrong, he's a great player. The only knock on him is his size... I'm not sure what type of a fit he'd been here anyway as he is more of a SS.

[shelby]

:hail: Ingtar!

[Earthquake Enyart]

What is the fascination with TE's ? :huh:

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
What is the fascination with TE's ? :huh:

Its called having a QB with almost zero mobility. Bledsoe really needs a release guy in case the protection breaks down. While Larry Centers fills this roll nicely, I think he may be on his way out! I, for one, think the Bills need to draft a TE to compete with Dave Moore. I have no doubt that JR is gone.

[Billz_fan]

... unfortunately I can read the winds fairly well, and I think there might be a run on DLmen of all shapes and sizes this year, causing many players to be picked well above their actual value... and leaving bare pickings when we get to the board.


very good thought, It follows the NFL's usual scramble to copy cat success also. I think this has a better than 80% chance of happening just the way you said it :(

Nice report btw, excellent reading :up:

[Earthquake Enyart]

The Gilbride offense doesn't use TE's. Might as well have a 3rd tackle out there like Paul Seymore.

[Tatonka]

ee is right.. while drew has shown in the past that he likes using his te, they dont get used much.

maybe that is a product of drew not feeling comfortable with JR though? there were several dropped passes..

if reed put on 40 pounds and grew 6 inches, i think he would make a good TE.. maybe he can have one of those leg stretching operations that little people have? :lol:

[colin]

Good reporting Ing, but I have a couple of questions.

I don't beleive the Combine numbers I read, the 40 times and the vert jump. I know they index finger time the 40s (or do the hand on the plate thing), how do they do the vertys, with those wind chime looking spokes on a pole, or with chalk on a wall?

I remember the tricks to increase the Vert jump measure, where you could pullback you shoulder blades, arch the shoulders but round the middle of the back, tighten the hips, and bend very slightly at the hips and ankles to knock off numbers from your standing measurement.

Anyhow, in the 2000 NBA Slam Dunk contest, they were measuring the running verts of the dunkers, and they showed Steve Francis at 37" and Carter at 35".

If an NBA forward (say 6'8") had a 48" vertical jump, he could stand and get his head 8" above the rim, meaning his arms would clear the back board entirely.

[Ingtar33]

OK, the NFL vertical jump is measured from a stand still...
There is a pole with metal sticks above the player's head, with the bottom stick measured to the player's standing arm height...

The player then jumps up and reaches, smacking the sticks... it doesn't really measure how high they get off the floor, just how high you can reach over your standing position. I'm not sure how the NBA measures this, but I do know that any NBA player should be able to beat a 40 on the NFL system.

And yes, there are ways to "cheat" the NFL system.

BTW, I'm not sure on Bailey's vertical jump numbers, that was the number that jumped to mind but I didn't actually see his jump (48inches was a WIDELY discussed number about Bailey's vertical at the combine, with a hushed sense of awe attached... I'll have to check up on that number to verify it).

[WG]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
The Gilbride offense doesn't use TE's. Might as well have a 3rd tackle out there like Paul Seymore.

Yeah, it doesn't use a RB either. Maybe we should start 3 WRs and 7 OL-men...

:biggrin:


Nice reports Ingtar!!!

I'm curious as to what Indy the team is going to do w/ Peterson and Scioli tho too.

[Ingtar33]

About the combine '40...

Most of the players don't want to run at the combine because they feel the numbers are too slow. The reason for this is as the combine, the clock is tied to a pressure plate at the start, and a laser at the end, which results in accurate and fair 40 times. Most "unofficial" 40 times are graded out with a stopwatch, and the strange thing is, people keeping time tend to "go fast" with their marks... as a result you'll here of plenty of 40 times with independent workouts which will beat the 4.28 that was run in Indy. Furthermore, 40 times can be influenced by the surface, with track and field surfaces being a bit faster than Astroturf.

[colin]

I see Ing, that is the wind chime looking thing i talked about.

So are tha players even on their toes for the measurement?

I know they can jump well, but I just want accurate numbers, which I prolly will never get.

[Bulldog]

Ing, did Clifton Smith (LB/Syracuse) work out in Indy? If so, how did he perform. I think this guy is a tremendous talent who has gotten very little pre-draft attention.

[Ingtar33]

Yes, Smith was there...

He performed about where we expected, not very fast or quick, he's a MLB without sideline to sideline speed... he really reminds me of John Holocek... all be it a bigger, stronger JH, but basically JH in general talent.

BTW: I think he tipped the scales at over 250lbs

[SoCalBillsFan]

Ing, how much did justin fargas improve his stock with his 40 showing?

[Ingtar33]

JF?

I think I adressed this in the first post...


Originally posted by Ingtar33
The buzz for the week was supplied when Deon Sander's combine record (in the 40 yard dash) was broke by Justin Fargas (RB, USC) who ran a 4.28 40, and probably catapulted himself into contention for a first day selection.

First Day selection translates into a top 3 round pick... Personally, I don't think his college career was good enough to justify a first day pick, he spent much of it on the bench... additionally, I never really saw much rushing instinct from him when he did play... He had some good games (100+ against ND) but mostly was ineffective.

The trick is his best games were in the second half of the season, which a lot of scouts will read as meaning he finally developed (late bloomer). They might be right... but he will be a gamble, he'll probably be just another John Avery (that great '98 first round bust)... fast but not good (of course Avery never ran the 40 anywhere near as fast as Fargus did).

ooohhh this was my 300th post too!

combine measured speed for Avery and Fargus
John Avery 40 time... 4.41
Justin Fargus 40 time... 4.28

[SoCalBillsFan]

sorry, guess I missed that somehow.

yeah i dont see him doing well either to be honest. In his defense, he didn't start till halfway through the season because of a pulled hammy, but he didn't play enough in college to warrant an early pick, and he's a big ? IMO. Just wondering what you though :up:

[Ingtar33]

BTW: just to update... I was able to track down Bailey's vertical, we have him listed as having a 43inch vertical, which does make him the highest leaper at the combine (the 48 was done earlier at a private tryout, and was a buzz thoughout the combine).

[Ingtar33]

Fargus measured in at 6'1" 219LBS

[Earthquake Enyart]

Avery was very short.

Was Johnson, the Penn State RB there? I think he's going to be a stiff. I read talk somewhere that the Pats were looking hard at him which is ok by me.

[Ingtar33]

When I see Johnson, I think Curtis Enis... The thought is split on him... some see him as an Eddie George clone... I don't think he's even that good (as limited as an EG clone is), in truth all I see is another bust like Curtis Enis. Johnson is not fast, takes forever to get to the hole, and runs too upright, which makes his size work against him. He needs to gain some weight in order to compete with his lack of speed.

They're even about the same size...
Curtis Enis: 6'0" 250lbs
Eddie George 6'3" 236lbs
Larry Johnson 6'2" 222lbs

[Earthquake Enyart]

Kinda runs like Salaam too,
looks like a buster through and through.

[SoCalBillsFan]

This guy will never be one of the best,
instead he'll be on the sidelines and have plenty of rest

[Tatonka]

this has turned into Q and A with Ing..lol

i am really surprised with the word on clifton smith.. he was a dominant player in college (vtech alum here, so i kept up)...

Ing, how do you explain the guys we see every year.. you know, a guy like cowart, who has such obvious talent, but is drafted so low.. or a better example is terrell davis/zach thomas/greg loyd type guys.. who everyone has rated as the 10th or so best at his position, but they come in and dominate?

i know you dont have a definitive answer, but just wondering what your take is.. how can a guy be so slow, bad sideline to sideline movement, ect.. but turn out to be a stud?

[BillC]

If I were the Bills I'd avoid a Running back

We need a guy who can bring on the sack

[Ingtar33]

Originally posted by Tatonka
this has turned into Q and A with Ing..lol

i am really surprised with the word on clifton smith.. he was a dominant player in college (vtech alum here, so i kept up)...

Ing, how do you explain the guys we see every year.. you know, a guy like cowart, who has such obvious talent, but is drafted so low.. or a better example is terrell davis/zach thomas/greg loyd type guys.. who everyone has rated as the 10th or so best at his position, but they come in and dominate?

i know you dont have a definitive answer, but just wondering what your take is.. how can a guy be so slow, bad sideline to sideline movement, ect.. but turn out to be a stud?

Cowart was a special case... in most scout's eyes he was an obvious talent. He lead the 'noles in tackles a couple of years. The trick was he was oft injured and had just blown out his knee, which caused him to miss his whole junior year (he did play the senior year, and led the 'noles in tackles). The result was Cowart went from a sure thing "top 15" draft pick to a second round steal.

Before you condemn the scouts, Cowart was viewed as being a little heavy, and not as fast as the other top LBers... what tends to happen is Draft picks are a finite resource. One you can only spend once a year. For a lot of teams the history of knee injuries, along with his non-glowing physical evaluations made Cowart a bit of a risk, and most teams see their first round picks as being too valuable to use on a risk.

BTW: that NFL draft had four LBs chosen before Cowart... Keith Brookings (ATL), Takeo Spikes (CIN), Anthony Simmons (SEA), Brian Simmons (CIN).

Sideline to sideline speed is sort of an illusion. True speed (like Simmons of Seattle or Derrick Brooks) can make you a sideline player. But so can smarts, quickness and block shedding ability. The problem is there is no definite way to judge intangibles like work ethic and instincts. Ray Lewis isn't even remotely fast, but he's a beast between the sidelines, because he's quick, and has some of the best instincts I've yet seen from a LB.

So take what scouts say with a grain of salt... because we can only judge technique and physical tools. All of the physical and technical evaluations from a scout, if taken to the extreme, will give you players like Mike Mamula.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Ingtar33


So take what scouts say with a grain of salt... because we can only judge technique and physical tools. All of the physical and technical evaluations from a scout, if taken to the extreme, will give you players like Mike Mamula.

how do scouts keep from getting "wowed" by a physical specimin? guys like fargas that didnt do squat their whole careers, but then throw up a 4.28. it seems those guys come up ever year.. fargas made himself probably an extra 1-2 million bucks by running so well. do you guys discuss that kind of stuff?

[shelby]

Ingtar's posts keep the boards alive.
i wish he worked at One Bills Drive.

[Tatonka]

how do you know he doesn't ? ;)

[Ingtar33]

T,

You have to understand, most scouts in the NFL are 50-75y old ex-coaches with predetermined opinions about physical talent so engrained that logical discourse with them is all but impossible and some of the others are nepotistic rats who know nothing of football. The results are the draft boards of teams are heavily influenced by the (physical) numbers because it is the only thing the personnel department can agree on.

There is a lot of fighting and film watching that goes on this time of year in the war rooms and scouts will fight for "their guys" to the death. That’s how this system works... I'm guilty of it too, personally I rely too much on "feel," I tend to discount numbers too much, and as a result my contributions tend to be a bit more abstract. It works for me, because I inevitably help us find some real gamers in the later rounds (guys who I feel should have gone much higher)... but it works against me too, as players like Dante Stallworth fall off my scope (who I felt was a workout warrior, with no "game" skills).

[Tatonka]

could you tell me a guy that you really fought for that ended up being a late round steal?

i love watching he late picks in the draft, and trying to pick those few special players that i loved in college..

if you cant, i get it..

is it ever a conflict, being a scout and such a big bills fan?

[Ingtar33]

Sorry, I can’t let you know...

And YES it is a huge pain in the @ss (not really a conflict of interest)... for example, I know who I'd fight for in the Bills war room, but in order to serve my team better, I have to be just as big a fan of our product so I have a better idea of their needs and the type of player they like (its one thing if your told what to look for, its a true professional who knows what they want before they do).

[Voltron]

Ing,

I have had a balst reading this. I am sure many have the same feelings that I have. through you we get to look through a window in to the Combine thanks to a great guy who in all reality has to keep 2 differnt lives secret from two different groups of people :).

thanks!

You da man


:bling:

[TigerJ]

See, I told you Ingtar has credentials, Tatonka.

We can't get anything more specific than what was said in this thread, though. I don't blame him.

[Tatonka]

gotcha... i really wish we knew who he scouted for.. just for fun and curiousity i guess.. but he definately knows his stuff.. i got the inclination after i read his long offseason report.. lol

why is it though, that you have to remain so confidential Ing? i mean your team can't fire you for being a participant on a message board, right?? it isnt like you are devulging your teams info on who they are drafting ect.. just giving us good honest opinions on players in the draft, just like a reporter would.. but hell, i dont know.. i guess you could get in some kind of trouble..

do you root for the team that you scout for like you do the bills? i have to imagine that i would be a fan of my employer..

anyways.. like voltron said.. giving us this info is great, cuz it makes us normal guys feel like we are in the war room basically.. i am nonstop looking for your comments these days ;)

[Ingtar33]

Well it’s been a while since I’ve made it clear why... so here it is.

Simply put, I'll never write anything here that will get me fired... however, football (pro and college) is a very tight fraternity, and as such, it can be easy to be black listed. I don't have the professional clout (not many do) to survive such a black listing... the result is I stay nice and vague about anything relating to my job. I know the chances are that no-one I know (in pro football)has seen this web page, or read my posts... but on the oddball chance someone does... I don't want them to be able to definitively tie this back to me.

Heck, maybe I'm being paranoid... most likely no one would care... but I'd rather not find out the hard way.

[Ingtar33]

BTW: thanks for the props people, its a joy conversing with the most knowledgeable football fans anywhere.

[Tatonka]

what if the whole board promised to keep a secret :D

[Earthquake Enyart]

Well, you said you specialize in the Big Ten and in QB's so I was wondering about Banks and Bollinger. Banks has some athletic skills and he is a leader. Bollinger isn't quite as skilled, but he also is a true leader.

I was also wondering how Seneca Wallace has fallen off the face of the earth. The guy was a Heisman candidate about halfway through the season, and now they are talking about him being an undrafted WR? WTF happened?

And, are the Bears gonna end up with Palmer?

[Ingtar33]

The skinny on Senica Wallice is that at 5'10" no one in the NFL thinks he can play QB (and from what I hear from the guys who were around then), they simply don't think he was as good as Doug Flutie when he left college, so as a result the NFL teams wanted him to try out at WR. He declined, which probably ruined his chance to get drafted.

Banks and Bollinger are JRG (just regular guys), which means the league sees nothing to justify wasting a pick on them.

[Ingtar33]

One small footnote...

Charlie Rodgers measured in at only 6'2" tall... I make note of this because part of the reason why he was so highly touted was because Michigan State claimed him to be 6'4"... His stock may slip, and I find it funny that this was probably one of the more significant events of the combine, and it went unreported…

[Michael82]

He did? 6'2!?!? Damn! I'm surprised Kiper didn't take this and run with it. A 6'4 receiver would be a heck of a lot more wanted by teams than 6'2...wouldn't he?

[LtBillsFan66]

How tall is Marvin Harrison?

[Tatonka]

how tall is moulds, owens, and coles? and price?

[LtBillsFan66]

Yeah. I fail to see how 2 inches caused such a stir.

Maybe this is in full effect:

You have to understand, most scouts in the NFL are 50-75y old ex-coaches with predetermined opinions about physical talent so engrained that logical discourse with them is all but impossible and some of the others are nepotistic rats who know nothing of football. The results are the draft boards of teams are heavily influenced by the (physical) numbers because it is the only thing the personnel department can agree on.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Height be damned, isn't it a foregone conclusion that he'll wind up in Detroit?

The only way he won't is if Cincy passes on Palmer and someone trades up to Detroit's pick to get him.

[Ingtar33]

True, height doesn't really matter... but the trick of the situation is Rodgers is a "physical" specimen... part of the reason he was so highly touted is because he was a very good WR, with breakaway speed, Owens like physicality, and Moss like height... I know this shouldn't be such a big deal but when you’re talking about the 2nd overall pick for a WR (something that is rare to see) this type of thing can weight heavily.

Furthermore, both Cinci and Detriot are looking to trade their picks (at least that’s what I've heard).

[Earthquake Enyart]

Is Palmer's stock dropping?

[Ingtar33]

Not that I know of...

[TigerJ]

Some people, maybe on this board suggested as far back as a couple months ago that Palmer is not too bright, and therefore might be a huge risk for a team. I'm not sure what it was based on-meeting him in person? seeing a TV interview? In any case, is there any indication that this might be the case? I know some guys can be very bright and not come across that way. Articulate doesn't always equate to intelligent.

[Ingtar33]

Palmer is a smart guy... I've talked to him my self... the problem is that (and I think I may have brought up his intelligence) the knock on him is he is football dumb. I think this might follow him around as long as he plays. He took a long time to get acclimated to college (he was a highly touted HS star), and when he did succeed it was with a dumbed down version of the offense. So the question about his football smarts is still a valid one.

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Palmer is a smart guy... I've talked to him my self... the problem is that (and I think I may have brought up his intelligence) the knock on him is he is football dumb. I think this might follow him around as long as he plays. He took a long time to get acclimated to college (he was a highly touted HS star), and when he did succeed it was with a dumbed down version of the offense. So the question about his football smarts is still a valid one.

Must be something with those USC grads. Does some guy named Rob ring any bells?:shakeno:

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Yes, Smith was there...

He performed about where we expected, not very fast or quick, he's a MLB without sideline to sideline speed... he really reminds me of John Holocek... all be it a bigger, stronger JH, but basically JH in general talent.

BTW: I think he tipped the scales at over 250lbs


Ing,not to :deadhorse , what round do you see Smith going in, and do you think he would be worth taking a shot at?

[Ingtar33]

Well, that will depend on how teams grade him out... I think he's a bubble guy on most draft boards... hovering around the end of day one and early day two.

[Tatonka]

talk more ingtar!! i want to know about players that stood out to you.. the guys that you have a great "gut" feeling about.. dont care about the position, or if it is really a "need" position for us.

[SoCalBillsFan]

Originally posted by TigerJ
Some people, maybe on this board suggested as far back as a couple months ago that Palmer is not too bright, and therefore might be a huge risk for a team. I'm not sure what it was based on-meeting him in person? seeing a TV interview? In any case, is there any indication that this might be the case? I know some guys can be very bright and not come across that way. Articulate doesn't always equate to intelligent.

yeah that would be me :D

the guy has rediculous physical tools, but I was the one who said a few months back he makes bad decisions at times. having him qb your team is great most of the time and terrible on occasion. he is the type of guy who will save you with his arm one minute and ruin you with his head the next. In the heat of the moment he will force a pass and throw a bad interception. It was only this year that he played up to caliber, his fifth year with USC.

one example that sticks out to me was against notre dame. we were up in the second half, just intercepted the ball, and had a first and goal. on first down the play was a pass, and palmer tried to force a ball through traffic for a big td. first down carson! it got intercepted and killed the momentum. thing is, he was amazing the rest of the game, but I worry plays like that will kill him in the pros.

just my opinion, and I am no NFL scout! but ive gotten to scrutinize palmer over several seasons, so that's my take.

[HenryRules]

Ingtar, I was wondering if you heard anything regarding Cleveland's thoughts on Dorsey's performance?

I figure Butch Davis probably knows more than anyone what Dorsey is like (he's probably had an eye on him for about 6 or 7 years now) and if he was suprised by Dorsey's performance, maybe Dorsey just had a bad day. Conversely, if Davis thought Dorsey performed as expected, than maybe Dorsey isn't as good as I thought he was going to be (like you, I thought he'd be a good value mid-round pick due to his intangibles).

Also, how much of Dorsey's poor throwing display do you think is due to his limited physical strength? I believe Dorsey's a really thin 6'5 190 or so and I always thought that if he got with a good strength coach, he could easily had 20 or 30 pounds of muscle and his arm strength would increase in response (I never thought he'd be a demon with the deep ball, but at least get to be an average arm which I think would be enough given his intangibles).

[Ingtar33]

Well HR, maybe if you knew what I thought I saw in him it might answer your question...

Dorsey always had a weak arm, just barely adequate for the NFL, but what I saw was marvelous pocket presence, great game awareness, and leadership in bowlfuls. The problem is I was thinking about Joe Montana, and how his poor arm was overcome by these same qualities. What I think everyone saw at the combine was very poor accuracy to go with the weak arm.

Now I know it may have been a fluke and he may just be a poor practice performer, but when you talk about a guy who was already a question mark (was it the system and supporting cast?) this showing may be enough to cause him to fall off most teams draft boards.

I probably wrong, but my gut feeling about KD hasn't changed in spite of the poor outing; but even I couldn't countenance wasting a top 5 round pick on him (right now from what I’ve seen, I figure he has a 15% chance of making an NFL squad... however if he does make a team somewhere, he could be another Tom Brady because he actually threw better than Brady did in his workout).

BTW: I'm not sure what Davis thinks about Dorsey…

[TigerJ]

I wonder if Palmer is a bit like Chad Pennington. Pennington was a Rhodes scholar type at Marshall but took forever before the Jets though he was ready to start. He wasn't picking up the Jets' admittedly complex west cost offensive scheme. It to an injury to Fossil Testaverdi before the Jets were forced to start him. The problem is teams can't afford to draft a QB in round one and groom him for four years before they start him.

[Dozerdog]

I wonder if he will be another David Klingler. If he was going to a team with a great OC to tutor him, maybe. But it's going to be the Bungles or the Bears.