For the record, about Culpepper

[Mr. Miyagi]

A lot of Dolphins fans seem to think Culpepper is going to return to his ProBowl form, "with or without Moss", when he recovers from his injury 100%.

Let's take a look at his "with or without Moss" stats:

With Moss (2000-2004)
Average 25.8 TDs, 14.8 INTs, 92.78 QB rating

Without Moss (2005)
6 TDs, 12 INTs, 72 QB rating (in 7 games)

Any questions?

[Coach Sal]

The Culpepper we've seen this year is a lot closer to what he really is than the Culpepper we saw a few years ago in Minny.

He always had a penchant for fumbling and being careless with the football, even when he had Moss.

Moss just changed the entire complexion of that offense and helped Daunte so much. His presence opened the field for other WR's (giving DC a chance to complete throws), as well as created a little more running room for Culpepper - especially near the goal line where Moss was so dangerous with him.

[Goobylal]

I said it all off-season that Culpepper looked HORRIBLE last year, which was cause enough for concern. Add the injury and he's cooked.

[Mr. Miyagi]

The Culpepper we've seen this year is a lot closer to what he really is than the Culpepper we saw a few years ago in Minny.

He always had a penchant for fumbling and being careless with the football, even when he had Moss.

Moss just changed the entire complexion of that offense and helped Daunte so much. His presence opened the field for other WR's (giving DC a chance to complete throws), as well as created a little more running room for Culpepper - especially near the goal line where Moss was so dangerous with him.
I agree. Without a decent OL and a gamebreaking WR, Culpepper is being exposed for what he really is, as evident this season thus far.

[bigbub2352]

Culpepper is almost as overratted as Vick

[dplus47]

A lot of Dolphins fans seem to think Culpepper is going to return to his ProBowl form, "with or without Moss", when he recovers from his injury 100%.

Let's take a look at his "with or without Moss" stats:

With Moss (2000-2004)
Average 25.8 TDs, 14.8 INTs, 92.78 QB rating

Without Moss (2005)
6 TDs, 12 INTs, 72 QB rating (in 7 games)

Any questions?

did randy moss play every game from 2000-2004? i seem to recall his being injured for a good stretch during c-pep's best year, but i'm sure you'll fill me in on the reality of that situation.

how is randy moss looking without culpepper? i'm sure you'll be able to fill me in on why that isn't working out as well as it should be, because randy is clearly able to carry a team, right?

[SABURZFAN]

He always had a penchant for fumbling and being careless with the football, even when he had Moss.




that's why i call him The Turnover Machine. :up:

[Mr. Miyagi]

how is randy moss looking without culpepper? i'm sure you'll be able to fill me in on why that isn't working out as well as it should be, because randy is clearly able to carry a team, right?
Moss went to a new team in a new system under new coaches altogether, whereas Culpepper had the same OL and coaches and everything, including all the receivers he's played with before. Moss was the only variable and it showed that he was the difference.

[dplus47]

Moss went to a new team in a new system under new coaches altogether, whereas Culpepper had the same OL and coaches and everything, including all the receivers he's played with before. Moss was the only variable and it showed that he was the difference.

moss was the ONLY variable? you do know that culpepper had a new system as well, and that linehan went to miami last year, right? you're just trying to trick me...

so what did it mean when c-pep played well in moss' absence? the year before he left, moss was out and gimpy a lot.

[Mr. Miyagi]

so what did it mean when c-pep played well in moss' absence? the year before he left, moss was out and gimpy a lot.
Really? According to Moss' stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12576), in that "gimpy" year he played 13 games and caught 13 TDs. That couldn't have affected Culpepper's stats could it? :huh:

[dplus47]

Really? According to Moss' stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12576), in that "gimpy" year he played 13 games and caught 13 TDs. That couldn't have affected Culpepper's stats could it? :huh:

look at his game-by-game stats. look at c-pep's game-by-game stats. do you remember that year at all?

and what about systems? or are they irrelevant now that c-pep and moss both had new systems?

[Mr. Miyagi]

look at his game-by-game stats. look at c-pep's game-by-game stats. do you remember that year at all?

and what about systems? or are they irrelevant now that c-pep and moss both had new systems?
Please elaborate instead of asking rhetorical questions as your responses.

What about the game-by-game stats? How does that support your argument? And how do you discount those 13 TDs by Moss?

[dplus47]

so daunte passes for 4717 yards and 39 TD's and moss catches for 767 yards and 13 TD's. i'd take c-pep's numbers minus moss.

here's a link to a page with the game-by-game. moss caught passes in 11 games that year. you gotta scroll down (sorry, i'm working):

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/MossRa00.htm

[dplus47]

here's a non-rhetorical question:

since both guys played in new systems in 2005, do systems matter anymore in your mind, or do they only matter for moss?

and another one:

randy's worst statistical year corresponds to daunte's best statistical year. how does this support the crux of the thread?

[Mr. Miyagi]

so daunte passes for 4717 yards and 39 TD's and moss catches for 767 yards and 13 TD's. i'd take c-pep's numbers minus moss.

You did.


Without Moss (2005)
6 TDs, 12 INTs, 72 QB rating (in 7 games)

[Mr. Miyagi]

since both guys played in new systems in 2005, do systems matter anymore in your mind, or do they only matter for moss?
Not just a new system for Moss. It was new everything, whereas Culpepper had all the same players he's played with, and I have not yet seen any evidence provided by you that he actually played in a new system in 2005 either.

[Michael82]

Daunte Culpepper sucks and is overrated! Without Moss, he isn't that good. :ill:

I predict that Joey Harrington will be starting by week 8 or 9.

[dplus47]

Not just a new system for Moss. It was new everything, whereas Culpepper had all the same players he's played with, and I have not yet seen any evidence provided by you that he actually played in a new system in 2005 either.

matt birk doesn't count, i know. as much as i want to read the star tribune's archives all morning, i'm gonna get back to work. nice thread! i'm really, really worried that the dolphins will never win another game.

[Mr. Miyagi]

matt birk doesn't count, i know. as much as i want to read the star tribune's archives all morning, i'm gonna get back to work. nice thread! i'm really, really worried that the dolphins will never win another game.
I would, considering they barely squeezed by Tennessee.

[Goobylal]

Moss, even while hurt, STILL commanded double teams and extra attention. Hence the reason Nate Burleson was considered a "budding star" in 2004, only to be a flamout in 2005 and with a new team THIS year.

And yes Culpepper was missing Linehan and was without Birk that year as well. Well guess what? He doesn't have Moss, Birk, OR Linehan with the Dols, and in fact has Mularkey as his OC. And he's recovering from a shredded knee.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Moss went to a new team in a new system under new coaches altogether, whereas Culpepper had the same OL and coaches and everything, including all the receivers he's played with before. Moss was the only variable and it showed that he was the difference.

In 2004, Moss missed games and had several games where he was hurt and had zero catches. If your claim is true, Culpepper's performance in those games should be similar to his performance in 2005, correct? He played 6 games in 2005 and finished with these stats:

1564 yards, 64.4% completion, 6 TDs, and 12 INTs

Here are his numbers from the 6 game stretch in 2004 where Moss had 2 catches with 1 TD:

1604 yards, 68.5% completion, 14 TDs, 5 INTs

BTW, extrapolated to a full season the numbers are:

4277 yards, 68.5%, 37 TDs, 13 INTs


Here Moss really was the only variable. How do you like your theory now?

[Mr. Miyagi]

Actually, there were 7 games 2004 where Moss had 2 or fewer catches, totalling 2 TDs.

So your extrapolation to 16 games should read 3666 yards, 32 TDs, 11 INTs.

Not too shabby I may add. Would've got him in the top 10 passer that year.

But if you don't blame his last year poor performance on Moss, can you blame it SOLELY on the new system? He still had most of the same weapons on his offense, and the same HC. And if he sucked under a new system last year, how can you be so confident that he'll EVER return to his previous 2004 form now that he's also in a new system in Miami?

My contention is that no, he won't.

[Kerr]

The excuse right now is that Culpepper is not comfortable because of his knee. I can't wait to see how he'll look when his knee is fully healed. I bet saban is kicking himself every week for not going after Brees. Thank you for your stupidity, saban.

[Mr. Miyagi]

So your extrapolation to 16 games should read 3666 yards, 32 TDs, 11 INTs.
And by the way, if you extrapolate JP's last week's stats to a full season, he'd have 5248 yards passing too. That would shatter some records.

I wouldn't go nuts extrapolating everything and pretend it means something. :rofl:

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Actually, there were 7 games 2004 where Moss had 2 or fewer catches, totalling 2 TDs.

So your extrapolation to 16 games should read 3666 yards, 32 TDs, 11 INTs.

Not too shabby I may add. Would've got him in the top 10 passer that year.

But if you don't blame his last year poor performance on Moss, can you blame it SOLELY on the new system? He still had most of the same weapons on his offense, and the same HC. And if he sucked under a new system last year, how can you be so confident that he'll EVER return to his previous 2004 form now that he's also in a new system in Miami?

My contention is that no, he won't.

I took a consecutive 6 games stretch that included the first game where Moss stopped contributing (on 10/17), 2 games where he has 0 catches, and 3 games where he didn't play. That was the portion of the season where Moss was ineffective. Culpepper's numbers were not affected much.

I'm not sure if the Vikings were playing the same system in 2005. I think they were playing a similar system without the necessary personnel. In particular they were mssing Moss, members of the OL, and, of course, Linehan. IMO, Culpepper's problems were caused by trying to do too much. He was forcing plays that weren't there. That led to the 12 INTs in 6 games. The thing to remember is that nothing was working on offense. The running game was stalled, the OL was giving up sacks, and Culpepper was playing poorly. Also, the Vikings were playing teams that were better than them. Tampa Bay, Cincy, Atlanta, and Chicago were good teams last season. That is who the Vikings lost to in the first 6 games.

This season, Culpepper seems tentative. He is struggling with his timing and his knee injury. The OL hasn't helped either.

The jury is out so far. I doubt he will duplicate his 2004 season, but who can? He put up good numbers in 2000 and 2003, and decent numbers in 2002. I think the Fins can expect a return to 3500-3700 yards, 25-30 TDs, and 10-15 INTs. That would put him in the top 10, right in line with QBs like Brees and Hasselbeck.

[Kerr]

In 2004, Moss missed games and had several games where he was hurt and had zero catches. If your claim is true, Culpepper's performance in those games should be similar to his performance in 2005, correct? He played 6 games in 2005 and finished with these stats:

1564 yards, 64.4% completion, 6 TDs, and 12 INTs

Here are his numbers from the 6 game stretch in 2004 where Moss had 2 catches with 1 TD:

1604 yards, 68.5% completion, 14 TDs, 5 INTs

BTW, extrapolated to a full season the numbers are:

4277 yards, 68.5%, 37 TDs, 13 INTs


Here Moss really was the only variable. How do you like your theory now?



http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133263/gamelogs/2004
Moss only went two games catchless. In the games Moss was a non factor he had 2tds and 2ints against the Giants and Titans. The next three games Moss did not play he had better numbers. Against a solid Indy D, a ****ty packers and lions defense.

The only good defenses were probably the Giants and the Colts. Throw in the fact that Moss was constantly doubled team when he had no catches, thus opening up things for other receivers. How many times has chambers been double teamed? Chambers is not in Moss' level so unless Culpepper has a receiver with the respect and talent that Moss warranted, his numbers aren't going to any better.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

And by the way, if you extrapolate JP's last week's stats to a full season, he'd have 5248 yards passing too. That would shatter some records.

I wouldn't go nuts extrapolating everything and pretend it means something. :rofl:

6 games is more legitimate that 1 game. Especially since Culpepper actually exceeded those numbers.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133263/gamelogs/2004
Moss only went two games catchless. In the games Moss was a non factor he had 2tds and 2ints against the Giants and Titans. The next three games Moss did not play he had better numbers. Against a solid Indy D, a ****ty packers and lions defense.

The only good defenses were probably the Giants and the Colts. Throw in the fact that Moss was constantly doubled team when he had no catches, thus opening up things for other receivers. How many times has chambers been double teamed? Chambers is not in Moss' level so unless Culpepper has a receiver with the respect and talent that Moss warranted, his numbers aren't going to any better.
Moss was hurt for the two games when he had 0 catches and the other teams knew it. Why do you pretend that Culpepper is the only QB with great receivers? Moss is not that much better than other great receivers. Steve Smith was unstoppable last season. He has been out this season. How is Delhomme doing. Culpepper is no different that other QBs in that regard.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

The excuse right now is that Culpepper is not comfortable because of his knee. I can't wait to see how he'll look when his knee is fully healed. I bet saban is kicking himself every week for not going after Brees. Thank you for your stupidity, saban.

Brees' numbers are not much better than Culpepper's.

Brees has 3 total TDs and 4 turnovers
Culpepper has 2 total TDs and 3 turnovers

Attempts, completions, yards, completion %, yards per attempt are all very similar.

[Kerr]

Brees' numbers are not much better than Culpepper's.

Brees has 3 total TDs and 4 turnovers
Culpepper has 2 total TDs and 3 turnovers

Attempts, completions, yards, completion %, yards per attempt are all very similar.


Culpepper has 1 td and 3 ints and a 73.1 passer rating
Brees has 3 tds and 2 ints with a 86.0 passer rating.

Even though it's still early in the season, i'd be willing to bet brees will have better numbers than culpepper when it's all set and done.

[dolphan117]

Actually, there were 7 games 2004 where Moss had 2 or fewer catches, totalling 2 TDs.

So your extrapolation to 16 games should read 3666 yards, 32 TDs, 11 INTs.

Not too shabby I may add. Would've got him in the top 10 passer that year.

But if you don't blame his last year poor performance on Moss, can you blame it SOLELY on the new system? He still had most of the same weapons on his offense, and the same HC. And if he sucked under a new system last year, how can you be so confident that he'll EVER return to his previous 2004 form now that he's also in a new system in Miami?

My contention is that no, he won't.I think if anyone expects that from Culpepper or any other QB on a year in and year out basis they are in for disappointment. In 04 he had one of the greatest statistical seasons of any QB in the history of the game, no QB can do that on a year in and year out basis. That being said I do believe he can be a very, very good qb even without Moss. Give him some time to settle in with a new team, a new OC and an O line that isn't allowing penetration within 2 seconds of the snap and I think he will be very effective.

The other thing that jumps out at me when people make this claim is that while Moss clearly is one of the great receivers (If not THE best) in the game and any qb will obviously benefit some from playing with him, he isn't some kind of a magic wr that just by being on the field turn crappy QB into pro-bowlers. Just ask Kerry Collins. In 04 when he didn't have Moss he played in 14 games and put up these stats.

289-513 for 3495 yards, 21 tds 20 ints, 56.3% completion, and a qb rating of 74.8

In 05 he played 15 with Moss these were his stats.

302-565 for 3759 yards, 20 tds 12 ints, 53.5% completion, and a qb rating of 77.3

Without Moss Collins actually had a better completion percentage and 1 more td pass than with Moss although with Moss he threw for an extra 364 yards and cut his number of ints by 8. All said and done though his overall qb rating only climbed by a measly two and a half points.

Then consider this. Collins just isn't a great QB. Never has been never will be. His career qb rating is 73.2. Now if Moss is some kind of magic WR who just turned a crappy qb named Culpepper into a pro-bowl why cant he do the same for another crappy qb? He cant. He was only able to raise Collins rating by 2.5 over the previous year and only 4.1 over Collins career average. And before you say that Moss was hurt and not playing at full speed last year remember that in Culpeppers best year (04) Moss was hurt and actually missed time. Culpepper still rolled to one of the greatest statistical years of any QB and would have been the MVP of the league if Manning hadn't thrown that ridiculous number of TDs.

My other problem with this argument is that almost all really great QBs have had talented WRs to work with. Did Jerry Rice make Montana and Steve Young? Are Marvin Harrision and Reggie Wayne "making" Peyton Manning right now? Same thing with Carson Palmer and the receivers he has. IMO it goes both ways, any qb is going to benefit from playing with great WRs.... But great WRs also benefit from playing with good qb's. I bet if you went and asked Moss right now he would gladly take Culpepper back as his QB, last year without him Moss only caught 60 balls for 1005 yards and 8 tds. Great numbers for just about any other wr in the game not very good compared to what he was used to putting up with Culpepper.

Edit-Brooks (another crappy qb) isnt exatly off to a banner year not that he has Moss either. Its only 3 games into the season but for what its worth his QB rating is only 58 and he hasnt thrown a TD yet on the year.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Brees' numbers are not much better than Culpepper's.

Brees has 3 total TDs and 4 turnovers
Culpepper has 2 total TDs and 3 turnovers

Attempts, completions, yards, completion %, yards per attempt are all very similar.
Oh? Then why is Miami 1-2 while NO is 3-0? Considering he's supposed to be such a savior for the Miami offense, he's not living up to his hype.

[Kerr]

Moss was hurt for the two games when he had 0 catches and the other teams knew it. Why do you pretend that Culpepper is the only QB with great receivers? Moss is not that much better than other great receivers. Steve Smith was unstoppable last season. He has been out this season. How is Delhomme doing. Culpepper is no different that other QBs in that regard.



Moss at 80% healthy is still a lot better than most receivers. Btw it's true delhomme and the carolina offense has strugged w/o Smith, but Culpepper even with his #1 receiver in Miami, can't do any better than Delhomme w/o Steve Smith.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I think if anyone expects that from Culpepper or any other QB on a year in and year out basis they are in for disappointment. In 04 he had one of the greatest statistical seasons of any QB in the history of the game, no QB can do that on a year in and year out basis. That being said I do believe he can be a very, very good qb even without Moss. Give him some time to settle in with a new team, a new OC and an O line that isn't allowing penetration within 2 seconds of the snap and I think he will be very effective.

The other thing that jumps out at me when people make this claim is that while Moss clearly is one of the great receivers (If not THE best) in the game and any qb will obviously benefit some from playing with him, he isn't some kind of a magic wr that just by being on the field turn crappy QB into pro-bowlers. Just ask Kerry Collins. In 04 when he didn't have Moss he played in 14 games and put up these stats.

289-513 for 3495 yards, 21 tds 20 ints, 56.3% completion, and a qb rating of 74.8

In 05 he played 15 with Moss these were his stats.

302-565 for 3759 yards, 20 tds 12 ints, 53.5% completion, and a qb rating of 77.3

Without Moss Collins actually had a better completion percentage and 1 more td pass than with Moss although with Moss he threw for an extra 364 yards and cut his number of ints by 8. All said and done though his overall qb rating only climbed by a measly two and a half points.

Then consider this. Collins just isn't a great QB. Never has been never will be. His career qb rating is 73.2. Now if Moss is some kind of magic WR who just turned a crappy qb named Culpepper into a pro-bowl why cant he do the same for another crappy qb? He cant. He was only able to raise Collins rating by 2.5 over the previous year and only 4.1 over Collins career average. And before you say that Moss was hurt and not playing at full speed last year remember that in Culpeppers best year (04) Moss was hurt and actually missed time. Culpepper still rolled to one of the greatest statistical years of any QB and would have been the MVP of the league if Manning hadn't thrown that ridiculous number of TDs.

My other problem with this argument is that almost all really great QBs have had talented WRs to work with. Did Jerry Rice make Montana and Steve Young? Are Marvin Harrision and Reggie Wayne "making" Peyton Manning right now? Same thing with Carson Palmer and the receivers he has. IMO it goes both ways, any qb is going to benefit from playing with great WRs.... But great WRs also benefit from playing with good qb's. I bet if you went and asked Moss right now he would gladly take Culpepper back as his QB, last year without him Moss only caught 60 balls for 1005 yards and 8 tds. Great numbers for just about any other wr in the game not very good compared to what he was used to putting up with Culpepper.

Edit-Brooks (another crappy qb) isnt exatly off to a banner year not that he has Moss either. Its only 3 games into the season but for what its worth his QB rating is only 58 and he hasnt thrown a TD yet on the year.
I see your point, and I think I'm going to agree with you.

Culpepper and Moss together kicked some ass in Minnesota. They both benefited from each other. This is true.

Without Culpepper, Moss hasn't done much either. This is true.

Without Moss, Culpepper sucked last season. Undeniable.

The point is, he is not the savior QB that Miami really needed to jump start their offense, which prompted all the hype of the Dolphins being any better this year than any other. But apparently some Dolphins fans seem to think that Culpepper will "return to form" as a Dolphin and suddenly lead the team to the promised land.

Again, my contention is that he won't do that, simply because he's not the same QB that he was in the Minnesota system, with that Minnesota personnel, especially Moss.

[dolphan117]

Well if you really want to spit hairs thats not really true. Delhomme's QB rating for the year is 72.3, Culpeppers is 73.1. Not that either is great but if we are going to talk about comparisions accuratly.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Oh? Then why is Miami 1-2 while NO is 3-0? Considering he's supposed to be such a savior for the Miami offense, he's not living up to his hype.

Because football is not an individual sport. Brees and Culpepper were equally hyped in the offseason. Neither is living up to the hype yet.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Culpepper has 1 td and 3 ints and a 73.1 passer rating
Brees has 3 tds and 2 ints with a 86.0 passer rating.

Even though it's still early in the season, i'd be willing to bet brees will have better numbers than culpepper when it's all set and done.

Brees has 2 fumbles. Culpepper has a rushing TD. Those count too.

[dolphan117]

I see your point, and I think I'm going to agree with you.

Culpepper and Moss together kicked some ass in Minnesota. They both benefited from each other. This is true.

Without Culpepper, Moss hasn't done much either. This is true.

Without Moss, Culpepper sucked last season. Undeniable.

The point is, he is not the savior QB that Miami really needed to jump start their offense, which prompted all the hype of the Dolphins being any better this year than any other. But apparently some Dolphins fans seem to think that Culpepper will "return to form" as a Dolphin and suddenly lead the team to the promised land.

Again, my contention is that he won't do that, simply because he's not the same QB that he was in the Minnesota system, with that Minnesota personnel, especially Moss.No question that Culpepper hasnt lived up to the hype and expectation that many people had but IMO much of that was never realistic anyway. I found it funny listening to Saban's radio show and someone asked him about the expectations and he said somthing to the effect of "Well SI picked us to win the Superbowl. No disrespect to our players and the people we have here but what have we acomplished to warent that?" He went on to talk about needing to continue geting better etc...

To me Culpeppers value was never really about this year anyway, as it goes on I think he will continue to improve and at the end of the year I'm fairly confident that he will prove to be an upgrade over what we had last year but to me it was really about next year and the years after. If Culpepper is ever going to be really effective in Miami the O-Line just flat out has to be better, right now our RG and LT play is just putride and the rest isnt playing all that well either. Also as the year goes on and Mularkey gets a beter handle on this roster and what it does well I expect our continuity to get better, right now we just arent consistant at all.

To me the book is just yet to be written, I agree that you cant expect a direct repeat of what he did with the Vikings for the very same reasons that you pointed out but to me given time his ceiling is still very high. As long as we can protect him for more than 2.5 seconds that is. Over at Finheaven CK did a breakdown of how how long our line was able to sustain their blocks against you guys and it was less than 2 seconds. That doesnt mean Culpepper was geting sacked at the 2 second mark but consistantly that was about when they started geting beat. I dont care if your Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, you just arent going to look very good with blocking like that.

[Al13]

so how is randy moss doin without daunte the last few years......

[Goobylal]

Moss allowed Collins to pass for almost 3800 yards last year. This year the Raiders' O-line couldn't block my grandmothers, who are dead.

[Bling]

Only one season where Moss never had 1000 yards...


Same year Culpepper had his career year.


I think Culpepper is overrated by the media, but I don't discredit that he's a top 10 QB in this league if his leg wasn't ****ed up and he wasn't so fragile right now.

[Goobylal]

To be fair, Culpepper's had lousy years in the first year with a new OC. It happened in 2002 and it happened again last year. And it's happening again THIS year. The problem is that Mularkey is a bad OC. And Culpepper's knee won't be the same again, not at his age.

[feelthepain]

A lot of Dolphins fans seem to think Culpepper is going to return to his ProBowl form, "with or without Moss", when he recovers from his injury 100%.

Let's take a look at his "with or without Moss" stats:

With Moss (2000-2004)
Average 25.8 TDs, 14.8 INTs, 92.78 QB rating

Without Moss (2005)
6 TDs, 12 INTs, 72 QB rating (in 7 games)

Any questions?

Ofcourse, typical Bill fan affraid of the real facts. Daunte had his best season the same year Moss had his worst season in Minn. And while you're at it, since it was all Moss (in your opinion) and no Culpepper why don't you post Moss's numbers since he left Minn?? I'll tell you why, cause they suck!!! and that would blow a hole in your stupid trash talking theory. Now go back to your closet and think up another trash talking thread you can post in the main forum that should be in the smack forum.

[feelthepain]

Moss went to a new team in a new system under new coaches altogether, whereas Culpepper had the same OL and coaches and everything, including all the receivers he's played with before. Moss was the only variable and it showed that he was the difference.

Wrong, Culpepper had a new OC and center at the start of 05, and he started to pick up his numbers the last two games before his injury.

[feelthepain]

Please elaborate instead of asking rhetorical questions as your responses.

What about the game-by-game stats? How does that support your argument? And how do you discount those 13 TDs by Moss?

Even without Moss's 13 TD's that leaves 26 TD's Daunte threw without Moss's help why don't you explain that.

[feelthepain]

Not just a new system for Moss. It was new everything, whereas Culpepper had all the same players he's played with, and I have not yet seen any evidence provided by you that he actually played in a new system in 2005 either.

Culpepper touches the Ball 90% of the time per game Moss's might touch the 10 % of a game, why don't you stop the BS, Daunte has far more responsability then Moss does.

[feelthepain]

And by the way, if you extrapolate JP's last week's stats to a full season, he'd have 5248 yards passing too. That would shatter some records.

I wouldn't go nuts extrapolating everything and pretend it means something. :rofl:

Uhhh, Daunte has had three probowl seasons to fairly gauge the exstrapolation. JP has ONE...UNO....LESS THEN 2.....1 MORE THEN ZERO game/s of 300+ yards. It's fair to extrapolate Daunte's numbers because he has a history to use as a gauge, it not fair to extrpolate JP's numbers because he has NO history. Let JP go to three probowls and have a near MVP season and we can use JP's #'s as a guage for your bias.

[feelthepain]

Culpepper has 1 td and 3 ints and a 73.1 passer rating
Brees has 3 tds and 2 ints with a 86.0 passer rating.

Even though it's still early in the season, i'd be willing to bet brees will have better numbers than culpepper when it's all set and done.

And I'll bet you feel that way cause that's what you hope happens. Great post, and not the slightest bit bias either...if you're a Bill fan.

[feelthepain]

Oh? Then why is Miami 1-2 while NO is 3-0? Considering he's supposed to be such a savior for the Miami offense, he's not living up to his hype.


Three games into 06 and he's not living up to the hype??? Where's TKO?? Is he living up to the hype?? I don't see you starting a thread about how he's done, washed up, a has been, or how much worse he is without Greg Williams!! You just have to start crap don't you?? You're wrong about Daunte, yet you cling to the hope he fails based on 9 games out of 83. Dude, you have issues.

[LtFinFan66]

Really? According to Moss' stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12576), in that "gimpy" year he played 13 games and caught 13 TDs. That couldn't have affected Culpepper's stats could it? :huh:but Culpepper threw for 4,000 yards to others besides Moss that year. Just a little note. Clearly Moss must not have been healthy

[Kadiddlehopper]

DC sucks, time to start Cleo!