How about that BS Fair Catch Call

[LtBillsFan66]

Doesn't the guy need to make an attempt to catch the ball? We got robbed there.

[OpIv37]

he also gave an invalid fair catch signal, which also should have been a penalty.

I'm not sure how we can interfere with the fair catch when no one is actually trying to catch the ball.

[SABURZFAN]

he was 5 yards off of the ball when he "supposedly" called for the fair catch.regardless,Special Teams play was horrible for both teams yesterday.

[LtBillsFan66]

he also gave an invalid fair catch signal, which also should have been a penalty.

I'm not sure how we can interfere with the fair catch when no one is actually trying to catch the ball.
Yeah that too. That was a Saban'esque fair catch signal.

[Novacane]

That was really BS. I thought fair catch int was hitting someone trying to catch the ball. He was not even going to get there in time to catch the ball.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Yeah that too. That was a Saban'esque fair catch signal.
:rofl: We got Sabaned.

[RedEyE]

It was complete BS. I couldn't figure out why that play wasn't reviewed. The guy that did wave his arm did it half-ass, and the he was moving away from the football. If that had been done downfield by the return man, Minnesota would have been penalized.

[gil]

by the logic of that call - if a player getting ready to receive an onside kick simply waves for a fair catch and the other team recovers, the person who recovers it will be guilty of interference.

[RedEyE]

by the logic of that call - if a player getting ready to receive an onside kick simply waves for a fair catch and the other team recovers, the person who recovers it will be guilty of interference.

Logically, yes. But the way the play went down was a guy that was not the return man raised his hand like a kid sitting in the back of the classroom who just shat his pants and didn't want to draw too much attention to himself. On top of that he wasn't even in a position to field the ball and was moving away from it.

[TigerJ]

Terrible call. I think we can all agree. On another board, someone made the point that a team expecting an onsides kick need only have all eleven players wave for a fair catch and the kicking team would have to stand still until the ball was touched.

[BillsSabresB.C.T. Fan]

here's the play

R.Lindell kicks 37 yards from BUF 30 to MIN 33, fair catch by E.Henderson. Kick actually caught by Buffalo K. Thomas at MIN33.
PENALTY on BUF-K.Thomas, Interference with Opportunity to Catch, 15 yards, enforced between downs.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20061001_MIN@BUF

[Meathead]

i think the player giving the fair catch signal has to be in a position to catch the ball otherwise its an illegal fair catch signal

you could argue the minny player wasnt close enough to actually catch it but he was only a couple yards away when the ball was caught by the bills player. thats close enough to be a valid even if borderline judgment call

therefore as much as i hate it i would say the call was valid

[alohabillsfan]

Fair Catch
1. The member of the receiving team must raise one arm a full length above his head and wave it from side to side while kick is in flight. (Failure to give proper sign: receivers’ ball five yards behind spot of signal.) Note: It is legal for the receiver to shield his eyes from the sun by raising one hand no higher than the helmet.

2. No opponent may interfere with the fair catcher, the ball, or his path to the ball. Penalty: 15 yards from spot of foul and fair catch is awarded.

3. A player who signals for a fair catch is not required to catch the ball. However, if a player signals for a fair catch, he may not block or initiate contact with any player on the kicking team until the ball touches a player. Penalty: snap 15 yards.

4. If ball hits ground or is touched by member of kicking team in flight, fair catch signal is off and all rules for a kicked ball apply.

5. Any undue advance by a fair catch receiver is delay of game. No specific distance is specified for undue advance as ball is dead at spot of catch. If player comes to a reasonable stop, no penalty. For penalty, five yards.

6. If time expires while ball is in play and a fair catch is awarded, receiving team may choose to extend the period with one fair catch kick down. However, placekicker may not use tee.

[DynaPaul]

Are we talking about the kickoff or the punt? There's no such thing as a fair catch on a kickoff, that's why you can have an onside kick. All kickoffs are "live balls" and it only needs to travel 10 yards. Kickoffs are free for for alls.

[LtBillsFan66]

Are we talking about the kickoff or the punt? There's no such thing as a fair catch on a kickoff, that's why you can have an onside kick. All kickoffs are "live balls" and it only needs to travel 10 yards. Kickoffs are free for for alls.
Kickoff.

There are faircatches on kickoffs.

There usually isn't faircatches on onsides kicks because the ball is bounced off the turf.

My point is the guy 1) didn't really signal like they are supposed to (I can even remeber a few years ago Nate getting a penalty for not waiving the proper way) and 2) the guy didn't make an attempt at the ball.

[carybillsfan]

by the logic of that call - if a player getting ready to receive an onside kick simply waves for a fair catch and the other team recovers, the person who recovers it will be guilty of interference.

That is why most onside kicks bounce off the ground first, once a ball hits the ground it cannot be fair caught. Kickers almost always driver the ball into the ground creating the high hop, thus allowing the kicking team to recover.

[The_Philster]

i think the player giving the fair catch signal has to be in a position to catch the ball otherwise its an illegal fair catch signal

you could argue the minny player wasnt close enough to actually catch it but he was only a couple yards away when the ball was caught by the bills player. thats close enough to be a valid even if borderline judgment call

therefore as much as i hate it i would say the call was valid
He didn't signal for a fair catch...maybe he intended to...but to signal for a fair catch, he has to have the arm extended...it was barely above his head according to the replays...so we got hosed on that call.

[Mitchy moo]

Maybe everybody should wave for the fair catch on a onside kick, looks like you can't get penalized for it or muffing it.

[LtBillsFan66]

Maybe everybody should wave for the fair catch on a onside kick, looks like you can't get penalized for it or muffing it.
The onside kick thing is irrelevant since it hits the ground. Unless it's kicked straight up. Which I've seen happen and I've seen fair catches called on.

[Typ0]

It was complete BS. I couldn't figure out why that play wasn't reviewed. The guy that did wave his arm did it half-ass, and the he was moving away from the football. If that had been done downfield by the return man, Minnesota would have been penalized.

because the NFL management are chicken **** and they won't review penalties that's why. If they would review penalties they would be admitting the referees suck and they need to do something to correct their terrible calls.

However, on this play I think we are the team that made the mistake. The guy put his hand up (kinda) but it was clear he didn't want to have anything to do with touching that football. He didn't know what to do. He thought if he touched the football and couldn't grasp it then our team could grab it so he was letting it bounce. We should have let the ball bounce and then picked it up.

[Typ0]

the question on the onesides kick is if there is even time to signal a fair catch. You can't signal a fair catch until the ball is kicked. seconds after the ball is kicked on an onsides kick the kicking team is all over it.

[Coach Sal]

Are we talking about the kickoff or the punt? There's no such thing as a fair catch on a kickoff, that's why you can have an onside kick. All kickoffs are "live balls" and it only needs to travel 10 yards. Kickoffs are free for for alls.

What are you talking about?

You absolutely can fair catch a kickoff.

[Coach Sal]

To answer a couple points made in this thread:

- It should have been a penalty on Minny for invalid fair catch signal. Check the previous post in this thread where the rule is defined. He clearly violated the rule.

- The "interference" the ref called is due to the fact that he said the Bills never gave the guy who signaled for fair catch an opportunity to catch the ball. The problem is that is a very subjective call. What constitutes an opportunity? The player in question was not a RB/WR, etc., and was well away from the ball. He wasn't in position and wasn't going to be in position quickly enough after the signal. It was a bad judgement call.

- Believe it or not, I believe the kicking team could have all 11 guys call fair catch on a kickoff. But that doesn't mean the kickoff team has to stand still. They just can't interfere with the opportunity for one of the returners to catch the ball.

-This same thing happened last week in college football (Thursday night on ESPN). Auburn pooch kicked the kickoff. The South Carolina players were surprised and were backing up to block. The Auburn player attempted to catch it as it came down (without hitting the ground). It bounced off his chest...another Auburn player recovered. There was no penalty. Auburn (the kicking team) was awarded the football.

I'm pretty sure there is no difference from college to the NFL on this particular rule.

[Earthquake Enyart]

The guy who signalled for a fair catch (legally or not) was at least 5 yards away from where Thomas caught the ball. Thomas didn't impede the Viking from catching the ball. He was no where near there.

I think the play surprised the refs so much that they made the BS call.

[Typ0]

The guy who signalled for a fair catch (legally or not) was at least 5 yards away from where Thomas caught the ball. Thomas didn't impede the Viking from catching the ball. He was no where near there.

I think the play surprised the refs so much that they made the BS call.


at minimum they could have some review ref available so they did not HAVE to make this call on the field. Instead, a couple guys throw a flag because there was some indication there was a penalty (forget that they aren't sure what they saw) and then they have to conference to decide what to call. Well I would love to have a microphone in those conversations to see what goes on because when they emerge from there they have to make a call. I think it would be better if they would just say "we're not sure, go ahead and look at it on tape and figure it out or we're just not going to call anything".

Like I said, we have to as a team play within this system of crappy refs. We shouldn't have touched the ball until it hit the ground and we would have had it.

[Ingtar33]

Point 1) if that’s the call we should wave for fair catch on onside kick: Poor argument, since once the ball touches the ground you cannot call for a fair catch

Point 2) improper Fair Catch signal: it was borderline

Point 3) did the receiver attempt to catch the ball: yes, he moved toward the ball, and was watching it’s flight

Point 4) the receiver couldn't catch the ball before it touched the ground: maybe... we'll never know, the bills player caught it before it touched the ground, and before the receiver could catch the ball.

Point 5) it a bad call: sort of... it was extremely borderline. I think it was a huge break for Minn, I’m surprised the Ref's threw the flag, especially considering how poor that Fair Catch signal was, and how far the receiver was from the ball when the Bills player caught it (3-5 yards away)

What it really was, was an extremely heads up special teams play by an o-lineman, and a fortuitous call for the Vikes.

[bflojohn]

My thought is that NFL Officials have to stop putting intent into the call. On replay, it is vividly clear that the O-lineman in question does NOT make any attempt to catch the ball, so in essense, where does the official find a ruling about fair-catch interference when NO fair-catch was attempted? That is my feeling on the call, and after ten yards, a kickoff member can acquire the ball in flight as long as the other team doesn't signal for a fair-catch and actually attempts one. Even a feeble attempt on that play WOULD have constituted a fair-catch attempt. It is really that simple to me....

[The_Philster]

What it really was, was an extremely heads up special teams play by an o-linemanI don't see where you get that...the only one on that play who made an extremely heads up play was a CB..Kiawaukee Thomas...the Minnesota player didn't even know how to make a fair catch signal

[Ingtar33]

the fact he even thought to wave his hand in the air, makes it heads up... he was giving himself an opportunity to catch the ball without getting killed.

You can't ask for more from an o-lineman

[The_Philster]

He barely got his arm over his head...I wouldn't call that heads up myself :idunno:

and personally, I would expect more. If a player is on the return team, he should know something as basic as a fair catch signal

[Ingtar33]

you'd be suprised...

just watching the nfl these days... special teams play is rarely special, let alone heads up.

[LtBillsFan66]

Marv would be mad at all of you. They are kicking teams, not "special teams." :D

[Michael82]

I think the play surprised the refs so much that they made the BS call.

That was exactly what I thought. The refs looked confused and weren't sure what to do. So they talked for a bit and then threw a flag at the last minute.

[Meathead]

depite what the rule says the nfl has been letting returners get away with that for years

think about all the times youve seen a guy wave his arm just once in a windmill motion and they never call that

the only time they call it is when the guy doesnt extend his arm above his helmet, other than that just about anything else goes, including the signal the minny player gave for sure

my question is can somebody forty yards away signal for the fair catch, thus preventing any offensive player from going for the ball? that seems very silly but perhaps thats what it is

[PromoTheRobot]

Doesn't the guy need to make an attempt to catch the ball? We got robbed there.
To be fair, Roscoe Parrish's fair catch signal was pretty limp and very late too.

The NFL will have to review that rule because, in theory, a team can call "fair catch" on an onside kick and nullify it automatically.

PTR

[BillyT92679]

If Kiwaukee Thomas lets the ball drop first, he can recover with no penalty. Of course he wouldn't do that since the ball is an prolate spheroid and will bounce in a variety of directions, making recovery difficult.
It was a heady play by the Vikes player.

[Dr. Lecter]

To be fair, Roscoe Parrish's fair catch signal was pretty limp and very late too.

The NFL will have to review that rule because, in theory, a team can call "fair catch" on an onside kick and nullify it automatically.

PTR

Most onside kicks bounce immediately, nullifying any potential fair catch.

[Jeff1220]

It looked more like the Minn. player was waving off his teammates (to not touch the ball), not giving a fair catch signal. I don't think it was heads-up. I just think he got lucky.

[Michael82]

It looked more like the Minn. player was waving off his teammates (to not touch the ball), not giving a fair catch signal. I don't think it was heads-up. I just think he got lucky.
I agree. It looked to me like they thought it was going out of bounds, so they were trying to keep the players from going after it.

[TigerJ]

i think the player giving the fair catch signal has to be in a position to catch the ball otherwise its an illegal fair catch signal

you could argue the minny player wasnt close enough to actually catch it but he was only a couple yards away when the ball was caught by the bills player. thats close enough to be a valid even if borderline judgment call

therefore as much as i hate it i would say the call was validIf the player (Henderson) continues to approach the spot where the ball is coming down, the Bills player (Kiwaukee Thomas) would have to back off and allow Henderson to catch it. If he did and Thomas didn't back off, then it's a valid call. Henderson didn't though. Instead he avoided the spot where the ball was coming down. Bogus call.