JP vs. Big Ben

[Ron Burgundy]

Just out of curiousity, let's say the Steeler's GM had a stroke and was using his ******ed second cousin (we'll call him Lecter for these purposes) to help him run the team. Lecter's first decision is to make a trade offer to the Buffalo Bills...Roethlisberger for Losman, straight up. Do you pull the trigger?

[NJFINSFAN1]

You would have to take Big Ben! Remember he is playing still all banged up from the MC crash and the surgery. But its a no brainer you would jump all over Big Ben.

And I like Losman, I wanted the Fins to draft him.

[YardRat]

Just out of curiousity, let's say the Steeler's GM had a stroke and was using his ******ed second cousin (we'll call him Lecter for these purposes) to help him run the team. Lecter's first decision is to make a trade offer to the Buffalo Bills...Roethlisberger for Losman, straight up. Do you pull the trigger?

:lmao: :roflmao:

[ICE74129]

Ben hasn't done **** lately. He can't without that great team around him. Now that the team is being slowly torn apart I don't see him doing much.

[Ron Burgundy]

I guess you've got to weigh the "hasn't done **** lately" card next to the "hasn't done **** ever" card. Good point.

I'm very interested to see how this poll turns out. No Plummer votes as of yet.

[Kerr]

How about the wait and see attitude? Let jp have the full year to see whether he can be this team's franchise qb or not. Team sport it is, but players are evaluated based on individual performance. The film shows the mistakes and weaknesses so in the end all that will be put together and a decision will be made.

[justasportsfan]

Ben might have to get back to basics as far as learning how to play all over again. If this continues, ya'll think Cowher will retire or leave Pitts to dry?

[Ron Burgundy]

How about the wait and see attitude? Let jp have the full year to see whether he can be this team's franchise qb or not. Team sport it is, but players are evaluated based on individual performance. The film shows the mistakes and weaknesses so in the end all that will be put together and a decision will be made.
This is a (obviously hypothetical) trade, offered right now, dude, based on this thread:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=110792

No reason to get deep.

[Kerr]

This is a (obviously hypothetical) trade, offered right now, dude, based on this thread:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=110792

No reason to get deep.


I know, but I still wouldn't pull the trigger. It's only fair jp gets a full year before anything else happens.

[TacklingDummy]

I can't vote. I don't like any of the 3. Sorry.

[Ron Burgundy]

I can't vote. I don't like any of the 3. Sorry.

Well, you're no fun. :down:

[TacklingDummy]

Well, you're no fun. :down:

The JP lickers have over-rated Ben as much as they have Losman.

[Jan Reimers]

Big Ben has been surrounded by a lot of talent and has been handled very well by his coaches - and he's still having problems this season, when things aren't quite as perfect for him.

I think JP has more physical talent than Big Ben, but he's had to cope with a much different situation. I'll take JP at this point.

As for Plummer, I'd rather have a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

[Ron Burgundy]

The JP lickers have over-rated Ben as much as they have Losman.

Oh, I dunno...maybe I just don't pay as much attention to the Steelers. Not that Ben doesn't have his flaws, of course, but I just hear about JP so much.

[Iehoshua]

Pouring acid in our eyes would feel better than considering Plummer in Buffalo.

[Jan Reimers]

Pouring acid in our eyes would feel better than considering Plummer in Buffalo.
I'd rather be nibbled to death by ducks than see Plummer in a Bills uni. Other than Mike Vick, has there ever been a more overrated QB in the NFL?

[Mr. Cynical]

In a New York minute I make that trade.

[YardRat]

Wow...tight race so far. And Plummer actually has a vote.

[Ron Burgundy]

In a New York minute I make that trade.

Well, of course you would.

I'm just shocked that the voting is so close.

[Ron Burgundy]

Wow...tight race so far. And Plummer actually has a vote.
I know...this is wild.

[Mahdi]

I absolutely stick with JP, his arm is way more impressive than Roethlesberger's. Jp makes great intermediate distance throws that Ben cannot make. Jp has more mobility than Ben and can take off at any time for big yards. Right now, if JP developes properly, I dont see a weakness in his game. Deep Ball, medium range, mobility, pocket presence is getting there.

[YardRat]

Whoa!! A change in the leader board.

[Mr. Cynical]

Well, of course you would.

I'm just shocked that the voting is so close.


Should have made this a public vote....

[Dozerdog]

I'd rather be nibbled to death by ducks than see Plummer in a Bills uni. Other than Mike Vick, has there ever been a more overrated QB in the NFL?

YUP-

Big Ben was putting up nearly the same numbers JP is now- he was far from a fantasy football stud the past 2 seasons.

[The_Philster]

Should have made this a public vote....
Yeah...that way you can see who thinks the Steelers and the Bills surrounded their QBs with the same talent...and laugh at them :lolpoint:

[bluehaze]

I've never been a big fan of Ben, he always seemed like more a product of the system too me. I think the team made Ben look alot better than he really is.

[The_Philster]

I've never been a big fan of Ben, he always seemed like more a product of the system too me. I think the team made Ben look alot better than he really is.
Well, I think he's a good QB...could still be a great one...but so much hype is piled on him because of his first 2 seasons in the league...Todd Collins could've won with those Steelers teams

[Mr. Cynical]

Yeah...that way you can see who thinks the Steelers and the Bills surrounded their QBs with the same talent...and laugh at them :lolpoint:

And so your "it's not the QB, it's team" defense continues. How'd that work out for you with defending Drew all those times? :snicker:

[The_Philster]

And so your "it's not the QB, it's team" defense continues. How'd that work out for you with defending Drew all those times? :snicker:
I never absolved Drew of his problems...he got blame for what he did wrong...I just didn't blame him for the other problems the team had...which is what anyone who knows the game even a little would do

[Mr. Cynical]

Look, I'm not saying JP is a bust. Never have. I still have hope he will get better. But the way Ben runs the game is the way a winner runs the game. And remember, as dozer already pointed out, his stats are far from spectacular. So this is not a stats debate. It's about "presence" and "it". And while I completely agree that a good team has a high impact on the success of a QB, the way in which that QB handles himself, the game and his teammates is independent of the W-L record.

[The_Philster]

Look, I'm not saying JP is a bust. Never have. I still have hope he will get better. But the way Ben runs the game is the way a winner runs the game. And remember, as dozer already pointed out, his stats are far from spectacular. So this is not a stats debate. It's about "presence" and "it". And while I completely agree that a good team has a high impact on the success of a QB, the way in which that QB handles himself, the game and his teammates is independent of the W-L record.
a lot of that is psychological....and no, I'm not saying JP is equal to Big Ben in the psychological aspect in any way...and had JP been given the job his rookie year like Big Ben got, we've no way of knowing if JP would be as good as or better than Big Ben
But the point is, Big Ben had the support of not only a great team around him, but the backing of his coach and teammates from the start...JP didn't get that til this year. JP may have tons of confidence in himself, but if the coach and your teammates don't have that same confidence in you, it shows

[Mr. Cynical]

a lot of that is psychological....and no, I'm not saying JP is equal to Big Ben in the psychological aspect in any way...and had JP been given the job his rookie year like Big Ben got, we've no way of knowing if JP would be as good as or better than Big Ben
But the point is, Big Ben had the support of not only a great team around him, but the backing of his coach and teammates from the start...JP didn't get that til this year. JP may have tons of confidence in himself, but if the coach and your teammates don't have that same confidence in you, it shows

Well I agree....it's psychological, not physical. JP has the tools (just like RJ did). Whether he will be able to get his head around the speed and complexity of the game at the pro level is TBD. So far he has improved, but even when you look at guys like Leinart in Arizona (where no one is going to say they have a great team) his presence/football awareness even in his rookie year are better than JP's is right now IMO.

Anyway, trust me, I don't want him to fail. What's the alternative? Quinn is the "hot ticket" but even as bad as I think we're going to finish (5-11) we won't be able to get him. I don't know enough about the other college QBs to know if there is a good stable coming up, so that means we'd need to snag an FA if JP busts. And I can't think of any QBs that will be FAs that I'd want. So I'm hoping we don't need to go fishing next year, trust me.

[Dr. Lecter]

The JP lickers have over-rated Ben as much as they have Losman.

?????

Weren't you all over Brady Quinn? And you still have the nuts to say OTHERS over-rate QB's??????

:rofl:

[Dr. Lecter]

BTW, at this time I go with Ben. I like JP and think he will be good, but at this time Ben is better.

[mybills]

Ben? Like Wanda said, all you have to do is make a brum, brum, motorcycle noise at him, and he falls apart.

I'll keep JP, thanks! :up:

btw, Jake sucks.

[bluehaze]

Well, I think he's a good QB...could still be a great one...but so much hype is piled on him because of his first 2 seasons in the league...Todd Collins could've won with those Steelers teams

I agree he's a good QB I just meant he aint no Marino, Manning etc..but you really dont have to be when your surrounded with that much talent.

[TacklingDummy]

?????

Weren't you all over Brady Quinn? And you still have the nuts to say OTHERS over-rate QB's??????

:rofl:

I'd take Quinn over Ben or JP any day of the week.

[YardRat]

Big Ben wasn't given the job his rookie year...he replaced an injured Maddox. Even if Bledsoe had similarly been injured, JP wouldn't have gotten the job because of his own injury.

JP was 'given' the job last year to start the season, and lost it because of poor play.

[Dr. Lecter]

I'd take Quinn over Ben or JP any day of the week.

Based on what?

Taking an unproven, never played in the NFL QB like Quinn over a guy with a Super Bowl ring, is well, not the brightest idea.

[The_Philster]

Big Ben wasn't given the job his rookie year...he replaced an injured Maddox. Even if Bledsoe had similarly been injured, JP wouldn't have gotten the job because of his own injury.

JP was 'given' the job last year to start the season, and lost it because of poor play.
more poor coaching and impatience than anything. He played poorly yes...but he was essentially a rookie with a mediocre-at-best team around him...it'd be foolish to have expected him to light up anything last year.

[YardRat]

I'd take Brady Quinn over Trent Dilfer.

[YardRat]

more poor coaching and impatience than anything. He played poorly yes...but he was essentially a rookie with a mediocre-at-best team around him...it'd be foolish to have expected him to light up anything last year.

I'm not going to get into the whole coach's suck, the o-line sucked, the defense sucked, or JP sucked discussion again. You blame whoever you want, I hold JP mostly responsible (not entirely) for his level of play last year.

[TacklingDummy]

Taking an unproven, never played in the NFL QB like Quinn over a guy with a Super Bowl ring, is well, not the brightest idea.

I think Quinn has the potential to make the players around him better.

JP/Ben need a team around them to make them better.

[The_Philster]

I'm not going to get into the whole coach's suck, the o-line sucked, the defense sucked, or JP sucked discussion again. You blame whoever you want, I hold JP mostly responsible (not entirely) for his level of play last year.
I hold him responsible too...for his own play...but the fact of the matter is..he was set up to fail...not intentionally, but he was.

[Ron Burgundy]

Well, any change in the leader board?

Looks like both QBs were back to their old selves, for good and for ill.