Ok, Lets get rid of Losman

[PECKERWOOD]

Note the sarcasm in the title, if you havent already. Lets be honest here, it seems like their is a vast majority of fans here that want to constantly bash JP. Ok, bash away. Throw him under the bus, get rid of him. Is that what everyone here wants? JP will be fine, take that to the bank. If your going to criticize JP, thats fine, but please be rational about it.

To all the naysayers, complaining about Losman. You want to get rid of him? Then what? Draft another QB, and watch the same thing happen all over again? Were not going to get any better, if we dont let him grow. Please give the kid some time.:peace:

[Mudflap1]

Note the sarcasm in the title, if you havent already. Lets be honest here, it seems like their is a vast majority of fans here that want to constantly bash JP. Ok, bash away. Throw him under the bus, get rid of him. Is that what everyone here wants? JP will be fine, take that to the bank. If your going to criticize JP, thats fine, but please be rational about it.

To all the naysayers, complaining about Losman. You want to get rid of him? Then what? Draft another QB, and watch the same thing happen all over again? Were not going to get any better, if we dont let him grow. Please give the kid some time.:peace:

Note "JP will be fine, take that to the bank." Exactly what psychic knowledge do you have to back this up? Exactly what has been done up to now to virtually guarantee this position? What are you going to do if he never gets any better?

Jon

[PECKERWOOD]

Note "JP will be fine, take that to the bank." Exactly what psychic knowledge do you have to back this up? Exactly what has been done up to now to virtually guarantee this position? What are you going to do if he never gets any better?

Jon
I do have psychic capabilities, sir. My point is, JP is not a bust. He is making big plays with his feet and arm. He is doing well despite the fact its a jailbreak each snap. What am I gonna do if JP never gets better? Good question, il tell you after he plays atleast a full season. Answer me this, how do you know JP is a complete bust? What 'psychic' powers do you have, sir? It seems like everybody wants to bash JP, yet they have no plan for the team once he is removed. JP has been accurate thus far, 61% PCT, 6TD - 5int, and 1 rush TD, QB rat 80. As far as, stats go. That isnt horrible by any means. I've seen 1st round QB busts play, and JP isnt one. You cannot compare him to Joey Harrington or Kyle Boller. JP is the future here, just be patient please.

[HHURRICANE]

Note the sarcasm in the title, if you havent already. Lets be honest here, it seems like their is a vast majority of fans here that want to constantly bash JP. Ok, bash away. Throw him under the bus, get rid of him. Is that what everyone here wants? JP will be fine, take that to the bank. If your going to criticize JP, thats fine, but please be rational about it.

To all the naysayers, complaining about Losman. You want to get rid of him? Then what? Draft another QB, and watch the same thing happen all over again? Were not going to get any better, if we dont let him grow. Please give the kid some time.:peace:

I agree that we have to live with him for at least this season and next. With that said I wouldn't want to be your banker.

[PECKERWOOD]

I agree that we have to live with him for at least this season and next. With that said I wouldn't want to be your banker.

:lmao:

[Mudflap1]

I do have psychic capabilities, sir. My point is, JP is not a bust. He is making big plays with his feet and arm. He is doing well despite the fact its a jailbreak each snap. What am I gonna do if JP never gets better? Good question, il tell you after he plays atleast a full season. Answer me this, how do you know JP is a complete bust? What 'psychic' powers do you have, sir? It seems like everybody wants to bash JP, yet they have no plan for the team once he is removed. JP has been accurate thus far, 61% PCT, 6TD - 5int, and 1 rush TD, QB rat 80. As far as, stats go. That isnt horrible by any means. I've seen 1st round QB busts play, and JP isnt one. You cannot compare him to Joey Harrington or Kyle Boller. JP is the future here, just be patient please.

I have not compared him to Boller or Harrington, nor have I said he is a bust. However, I am not about to say that he's definitely going to right the ship and be a good quarterback. He's looking right at the crossroads right now, and he's making a lot of mistakes. That being said, there are no other viable alternatives, so he should have the full 16 games this season to see if he can progress. There are a lot of other problems on this team, most notably the offensive line, that aren't Losman's fault. However, he does have a good running back and some good receivers. He has to do his part and cut back his mistakes to a minimum.

Jon

[Inetpub]

JP Losman isnt the future. If there is 1 thing you have to realize, he will bolt after his contract is over! More or less because of how everyone has treated him during his tenure here.

Also, There are alot of things you can teach a QB but STUPIDITY AND CLUMBSINESS arent something you teach. Those are 2 traits JP possesses that wont make him step up when we need him. Hes too stupid to realize hes playing pro football and hes too clumbsy to hold on to the ball. Go figure. But I'll give him this. His hair is better than mine. :clown: :loser: :deadhorse

[PECKERWOOD]

I have not compared him to Boller or Harrington, nor have I said he is a bust. However, I am not about to say that he's definitely going to right the ship and be a good quarterback. He's looking right at the crossroads right now, and he's making a lot of mistakes. That being said, there are no other viable alternatives, so he should have the full 16 games this season to see if he can progress. There are a lot of other problems on this team, most notably the offensive line, that aren't Losman's fault. However, he does have a good running back and some good receivers. He has to do his part and cut back his mistakes to a minimum.

Jon
He does need to cut back on some stupid mistakes. He does have a good RB in Willy, however we have been struggling to establish a running game at times. Willis had, what 17 carries for 66 yards versus Detroit? That wont take much pressure off of Losman, by no means. As far as recievers go, Evans is really the only 'good' reciever, imo. Price has 18 catches, with an 8.8 yac. Josh Reed is a solid blocker, however his recieving capabilities arent that impressive this year. ( 18 rec, 10.6 yac) Roscoe Parrish is the only other decent reciever per say. He has made big plays for us, but he isnt an every down reciever for JP to goto. At the Tight End position, Robert Royal hasnt done much.( 5 rec, 11.6 yac ) It should also be noted that JP hasnt had the best Defense to lean on either.

[The_Philster]

JP Losman isnt the future. If there is 1 thing you have to realize, he will bolt after his contract is over! More or less because of how everyone has treated him during his tenure here.

Also, There are alot of things you can teach a QB but STUPIDITY AND CLUMBSINESS arent something you teach. Those are 2 traits JP possesses that wont make him step up when we need him. Hes too stupid to realize hes playing pro football and hes too clumbsy to hold on to the ball. Go figure. But I'll give him this. His hair is better than mine. :clown: :loser: :deadhorse
short of a few of you haters bashing him for even his good plays, I don't see where you get the idea he's been treated poorly in Buffalo...I'm guessing you're not going to games at all...

[kernowboy]

The bottom line is Losman has improved.

We CANNOT draft another quarterback next year without dealing with the basics, of both lines. Quinn, Brohm, Stanton, Smith will all get hammered with the OL in its current form. I'm almost tempted to play a line of Pennington, Preston, Merz, Peters and Butler as they cannot be worse than the current rabble.

Gandy has to go and with the OT depth available we could get a quality youngster in the 2nd or maybe the 3rd. Names include Doug Free, Ryan Harris, Mike Otto, Joe Staley all of who are a massive upgrade. Unfortunately unless there are cuts there is no real upgrade on the horizon in FA

Likewise for the QBs there is Mike Schaub, Chris Simms and maybe Pat Ramsay. All could be an upgrade and equally all could be the next Rob Johnson. Personally I'd like one of them brought in however as I don't think Nall will ever be starter material and we might get lucky.

If Greg Olsen comes out we could pick him up at aound the 20 mark, but Dan Graham is a FA and with the Pats depth he could be available ... definitely an upgrade over Royal/Everett. This gives JP a non-mini sized outlet or possibly two.

We also need a DE who knows what a QB in a different uniform looks like and a tackle who's favourite colour isn't yellow. Gentleman, I present Dan Bazuin in the 3rd and Justin Hartnell in the 4th. Who cares what their 40yds times are ... get them in!!!

[ScottLawrence]

Note the sarcasm in the title, if you havent already. Lets be honest here, it seems like their is a vast majority of fans here that want to constantly bash JP. Ok, bash away. Throw him under the bus, get rid of him. Is that what everyone here wants? JP will be fine, take that to the bank. If your going to criticize JP, thats fine, but please be rational about it.

To all the naysayers, complaining about Losman. You want to get rid of him? Then what? Draft another QB, and watch the same thing happen all over again? Were not going to get any better, if we dont let him grow. Please give the kid some time.:peace:

Since when is a guy in the league for 3 years considered a "kid".

All we heard about JP was "upside, potential, Big ARM"

Potential, and upside gets coaches fired, and players traded.(Last year as an example)

Losman doesn't have the smarts to be an NFL starter, just like ROBO.
His decision making, pocket prescence, and tunnel vision will kill us, and he'll be gone after this year.

No, sign a quarterback in Free agency.

Simms, and Schaub come to mind.

[The_Philster]

Since when is a guy in the league for 3 years considered a "kid".
and how much of that 3 years has he played?


Yeah...thought so

[X-Era]

Since when is a guy in the league for 3 years considered a "kid".

All we heard about JP was "upside, potential, Big ARM"

Potential, and upside gets coaches fired, and players traded.(Last year as an example)

Losman doesn't have the smarts to be an NFL starter, just like ROBO.
His decision making, pocket prescence, and tunnel vision will kill us, and he'll be gone after this year.

No, sign a quarterback in Free agency.

Simms, and Schaub come to mind.

Bill Walsh and Brian Billick say 30 starts is what it takes to get a good read on any QB. These guys have more football smarts than any of us.

I think we should listen

[The_Philster]

Bill Walsh and Brian Billick say 30 starts is what it takes to get a good read on any QB. These guys have more football smarts than any of us.

I think we should listen
personally, I think 30 is a bit much...but it's gotta at least be a season without getting jerked around anyway

[PECKERWOOD]

Since when is a guy in the league for 3 years considered a "kid".

All we heard about JP was "upside, potential, Big ARM"

Potential, and upside gets coaches fired, and players traded.(Last year as an example)

Losman doesn't have the smarts to be an NFL starter, just like ROBO.
His decision making, pocket prescence, and tunnel vision will kill us, and he'll be gone after this year.

No, sign a quarterback in Free agency.

Simms, and Schaub come to mind.

Your replacement for JP is Simms and Schaub? How many games has Schaub started again? Oh yeah 2 games started, good replacement. Simms is halfway respectable, but nowhere near as talented or proven as JP. Not to mention, Simms is going through some serious growing pains as well. Furthermore, Gruden said that Simms will remain TB's QB. He isnt even a free agent.

Lets compare Simms and JP Losman's Career stats:

Chris Simms 2005
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD>11</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>313</TD><TD>191</TD><TD>61.0</TD><TD>2035</TD><TD>6.50</TD><TD>78</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>29/205</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>81.4</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Chris Simms 2006
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD>3</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>106</TD><TD>58</TD><TD>54.7</TD><TD>585</TD><TD>5.52</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>4/32</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>46.3</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

JPL 2005
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD>9</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>228</TD><TD>113</TD><TD>49.6</TD><TD>1340</TD><TD>5.88</TD><TD>58</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>26/197</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>64.9</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
JPL 2006
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left></TD><TD>6</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>172</TD><TD>106</TD><TD>61.6</TD><TD>1121</TD><TD>6.52</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>19/161</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>80.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


"All we heard about JP was "upside, potential, Big ARM"

Potential, and upside gets coaches fired, and players traded.(Last year as an example)"- you

So Simms is just as unproven as JP, if not more UNPROVEN. What are you exactly basing your assertions on? Certainly not experience or history. You send a contradictory message my friend.

[Risin]

Your replacement for JP is Simms and Schaub? How many games has Schaub started again? Oh yeah 2 games started, good replacement. Simms is halfway respectable, but nowhere near as talented or proven as JP. Not to mention, Simms is going through some serious growing pains as well. Furthermore, Gruden said that Simms will remain TB's QB. He isnt even a free agent.

Lets compare Simms and JP Losman's Career stats:

Chris Simms 2005
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD>11</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>313</TD><TD>191</TD><TD>61.0</TD><TD>2035</TD><TD>6.50</TD><TD>78</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>29/205</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>81.4</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Chris Simms 2006
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD>3</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>106</TD><TD>58</TD><TD>54.7</TD><TD>585</TD><TD>5.52</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>4/32</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>46.3</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

JPL 2005
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD>9</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>228</TD><TD>113</TD><TD>49.6</TD><TD>1340</TD><TD>5.88</TD><TD>58</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>26/197</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>64.9</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
JPL 2006
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left></TD><TD>6</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>172</TD><TD>106</TD><TD>61.6</TD><TD>1121</TD><TD>6.52</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>19/161</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>80.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


"All we heard about JP was "upside, potential, Big ARM"

Potential, and upside gets coaches fired, and players traded.(Last year as an example)"- you

So Simms is just as unproven as JP, if not more UNPROVEN. What are you exactly basing your assertions on? Certainly not experience or history. You send a contradictory message my friend.

owned.

[paladin warrior]

what hapeen if Bill's were worse 2-14 this season. So if the Buffalo Bill's are in number 1 pick draft.. What players Buffalo Bill's going get it? Maybe get new QB WR. OL. Who will be be #1 football NCAA draft next year.. Maybe USC. Buckeyes OR Michigan Wolverines... To me I really like get WR. number #1 pick, Oh Yeah OL that too :honda:

[the REAL Rudeman]

Ok, bash away. ok. Will do. He's a ****ing pile of QB ****. :up:

[DraftBoy]

and how much of that 3 years has he played?


Yeah...thought so

What kind of weak excuse is this? Has he not had 3 years to adjust to the NFL speeds? Has he not had 3 years to learn NFL defensive packages? How long do you think he needs to learn how to do things he's been taught since middle school. Yes its more complex and harder but he's failing in the fundamentals right now not the harder stuff. This excuse is about as legit as Bush's reason to invade Iraq.

[Risin]

What kind of weak excuse is this? Has he not had 3 years to adjust to the NFL speeds? Has he not had 3 years to learn NFL defensive packages? How long do you think he needs to learn how to do things he's been taught since middle school. Yes its more complex and harder but he's failing in the fundamentals right now not the harder stuff. This excuse is about as legit as Bush's reason to invade Iraq.


Your argument is ignorant.

Who are you to say he should know everything by now?

He isn't failing in the fundamentals, unless your definition of them is different then mine.

Please explain these fundamentals you speak of...

[DraftBoy]

Your argument is ignorant.

Who are you to say he should know everything by now?

He isn't failing in the fundamentals, unless your definition of them is different then mine.

Please explain these fundamentals you speak of...


Well lets see;
-Reading Defensive Schemes
-Recognizing Blitzes
-Re-aligning blocking assignments
-Hot Routes
-Check Downs
-Touch on Screens and other short passes
-Internal Clock
-Feeling Pressure
-Throwing the Ball Away

all those things are High School QB skills, aside from Re-aligning blocking schemes, and he's failing to do them consectuively or consistently.

[DraftBoy]

And did I say he should know everything? You speak of my ignorance then choose to put words in my mouth.

Pot meet Kettle

[PECKERWOOD]

What kind of weak excuse is this? Has he not had 3 years to adjust to the NFL speeds? Has he not had 3 years to learn NFL defensive packages? How long do you think he needs to learn how to do things he's been taught since middle school. Yes its more complex and harder but he's failing in the fundamentals right now not the harder stuff. This excuse is about as legit as Bush's reason to invade Iraq.

I know its hard to see the bigger picture, but its not just about 'learning the scheme.' You could have Peyton Manning behind our line and he would look like trash. We all understand JP has made some dumb mistakes, but I think people are blowing it out of proportion. We have many holes in our offense. It doesnt help that JP doesnt have a legitimate #2 target to throw to.

[DraftBoy]

I know its hard to see the bigger picture, but its not just about 'learning the scheme.' You could have Peyton Manning behind our line and he would look like trash. We all understand JP has made some dumb mistakes, but I think people are blowing it out of proportion. We have many holes in our offense. It doesnt help that JP doesnt have a legitimate #2 target to throw to.


I dont want Peyton Manning, I want a QB who understands the basics of our scheme and the NFL defense. Then we can atleast build from there. Till we have that, we have nothing.

[The_Philster]

What kind of weak excuse is this? Has he not had 3 years to adjust to the NFL speeds? Has he not had 3 years to learn NFL defensive packages? How long do you think he needs to learn how to do things he's been taught since middle school. Yes its more complex and harder but he's failing in the fundamentals right now not the harder stuff. This excuse is about as legit as Bush's reason to invade Iraq.
learning on the practice field and in classrooms isn't the same thing as learning on the playing field at 1pm on Sundays

[PECKERWOOD]

I dont want Peyton Manning, I want a QB who understands the basics of our scheme and the NFL defense. Then we can atleast build from there. Till we have that, we have nothing.
You missed my point. The problem is, a Quarterback can not be successful unless their is talent around him.. The moral of the story is: It doesnt matter how well JP knows the scheme, if the OL cant block nor can any WR's get open consistently, he wont succeed.

[DraftBoy]

learning on the practice field and in classrooms isn't the same thing as learning on the playing field at 1pm on Sundays


Schemes Phil are learned in the classroom and applied on the field, Im asking him to show knowledge that he understands them, not have them perfectly applied.

[DraftBoy]

You missed my point. The problem is, a Quarterback can not be successful unless their is talent around him.. The moral of the story is: It doesnt matter how well JP knows the scheme, if the OL cant block nor can any WR's get open consistently, he wont succeed.


I disagree and no I didnt miss your point. As a QB he is the leader of the offense (yes or no) it is his job to re-adjust his protection as he sees needed, and also to call for a hot route if he's reading blitz. These two things he has not done. I agree our OL is crap, and it needs help, but JP can call for a max protect audible if need be. He is not re adjusting the packages which shows alot about him. One reason everybody though Peyton Manning was gonna be great after year 1 when his numbers were horrid and his OL sucks. He was re-adjust almost before every play. Its a leadership quality I have not seen him step up and take control of yet. maybe soon.

[PECKERWOOD]

I disagree and no I didnt miss your point. As a QB he is the leader of the offense (yes or no) it is his job to re-adjust his protection as he sees needed, and also to call for a hot route if he's reading blitz. These two things he has not done. I agree our OL is crap, and it needs help, but JP can call for a max protect audible if need be. He is not re adjusting the packages which shows alot about him. One reason everybody though Peyton Manning was gonna be great after year 1 when his numbers were horrid and his OL sucks. He was re-adjust almost before every play. Its a leadership quality I have not seen him step up and take control of yet. maybe soon.
QB is the leader of offense agreed.
Are you suggesting JP Losman should block also? Even if JP does adjust the protection, he can not make the OL block better and protect better. Furthermore, if you didnt notice. The Bills have been in max protect for the majority of the season.(Hence R.Royal only 5 receptions, he isnt running routes, he is helping protect the QB.) Also, JP can call hot routes as much as he wants to, but once again. If the reciever doesnt get open it doesnt matter. Let me also point out, that JP DID infact call a hot route and when one of his recievers got open he made a play.(Roscoe Bomb.) But however, that is if the reciever does his job willingly.

[Inetpub]

learning on the practice field and in classrooms isn't the same thing as learning on the playing field at 1pm on Sundays
OFCOURSE it isnt. You need to apply what you learned on the Practice field to what your doing at gametime. Seriously you dont want him to be trying new plays hes never practiced. Thats idiocy. You practice all week to play the game on Sunday. Its final. That whole week of practice should prepare you for Sunday. If your going in on Sunday to Practice, then we are definately in trouble.

The only other thing you learn on gameday is how to play in front of the lights and under pressure. But isnt that what hes been doing his whole career? Highschool, University? Just a thought but we didnt pick JP to lead the Bills from a litter of surfers did we? Maybe we did.

[Risin]

Well lets see;
-Reading Defensive Schemes

Well, in his second season playing, he has progressed in this area, I'd say you're wrong.


Recognizing Blitzes

Are you kidding me? Sometimes he gets beat by this like any QB, but many times our offensive line is getting beat by a 4 man rush, it just looks like a blitz. How many times has JP checked to his "hot read"? I'd say a whole bunch, I remember a few plays where his wide receiver didn't read the blitz, and JP hit him in the ass.


Re-aligning blocking assignments

Not to get high and mighty, but I played QB. This was the responsibility of the Center for the o-line. I was responsible for pointing out a blitzer to the running back, but even then it was his job to see the same thing before I did. As far as I know, this doesn't change in the pros, but I could be wrong.


Hot Routes

Already blasted this theory.


Check Downs

Once again, he has improved in this area, also pretty hard to check down when you're getting pressured by the time you goto your second read. Your second read is NEVER a checkdown. (unless you're Kelly Holcomb)


Touch on Screens and other short passes

This one I totally agree with. He may never get this, look no further than Drew Bledsoe as proof.


Internal Clock

Disagree. His internal clock is banged up right now, but it's still pretty damn good. He is starting to suffer from shell shock from this offensive line, look no further then his high passes early in the game, he is not setting his feet, because he is feeling a phantom rush.

Think of it like this, you put your hand to a lighter, and someone lights it. They are only supposed to light it every 4 seconds, so you start timing it that way. Have the person light it after 2 seconds a few times in a row, and get burned. the next few times he lights it, you're going to be pulling your hand out early, and your internal clock will be messed up.



Feeling Pressure

Disagree again, as a QB you have to assume your LT will not completely whiff on your blindside. NO QB is going to feel that coming, I'm sorry.

Heck, I remember Jim Kelly in his heyday getting blindsided by Rod freakin' Woodson on multiple occasions. Shouldn't he feel that Cornerback coming? He must have stunk...


Throwing the Ball Away

That was Rob Johnson's problem, JP has thrown the ball away at times this year. You can't throw the ball away from within the pocket, so the point is moot.

Does he hold it too long, and take a sack when he should throw it away at times? You bet, I dare you to find me a QB that doesn't.

As a QB, you tend to never want to give up on a play, call it ego, competitivness, stupidity etc. Thing is, it happens.

[DraftBoy]

QB is the leader of offense agreed.
Are you suggesting JP Losman should block also? Even if JP does adjust the protection, he can not make the OL block better and protect better. Furthermore, if you didnt notice. The Bills have been in max protect for the majority of the season.(Hence R.Royal only 5 receptions, he isnt running routes, he is helping protect the QB.) Also, JP can call hot routes as much as he wants to, but once again. If the reciever doesnt get open it doesnt matter. Let me also point out, that JP DID infact call a hot route and when one of his recievers got open he made a play.(Roscoe Bomb.) But however, that is if the reciever does his job willingly.


No Jp should not block, but your not understanding my point. If he re-adjusts his protection he should know where the pressure is going to likely come from, if he calls a true hot route, then the WR should almost always be open. For instance on a blitz (my exp) the hot route would be a quick slant, quick in, turn around, or something quick hitting. When you see the D manning up then you hot route the bomb (like Losman to Parrish)...however one example of a hot route does not mean he's getting it. It means he's got some of it but there is still work to do. But you make another point for me, if we've been in max protect almost all season and still are like swiss cheese dont you think he should start to change his drop from 5 steps to like 3? Or audible in more bubble screens (again this one is also on the coaching. Can he make the OL block better? Physically no, but he can put them in a better posistion to do their jobs. Some of this is more advanced stuff, but its all needed to be a avg NFL qb.

[PECKERWOOD]

P.S. That 'hot route' JPL called, he had to scramble away from a horde of offensive linemen to make that play. Does nobody talk about that?

[The_Philster]

Schemes Phil are learned in the classroom and applied on the field, Im asking him to show knowledge that he understands them, not have them perfectly applied.
and there have been times he's done great at those...step back from the games of the past two weeks and judge him not just on those two games, but on the whole season's body of work...he improved a lot over last year in pretty much all the areas you brought up in that post above.

reading defensive schemes....definitely more to learn
recognizing blitzes, hot routes.....I remember one play a few weeks back where he did that pretty damn well...but Evans never made his blitz adjustment...woulda had a TD if Evans had done that
check downs...there are times he'll lock onto a guy...tunnel vision ala Bledsoe...happens once or twice a game...he does go through his progressions, usually...but needs to speed it up a little
touch on screens and short passes..I looked at 3 of them from yesterday's game earlier tonight...1 of 3 was done properly..a short pass to Peerless...he had that high one to Willis and another high one to Roscoe...the Parrish pass got us some yards
Internal Clock..holding onto the ball too long...doesn't happen that much...3 sacks in the 1st half..he held onto the ball too long on the 3rd of those sacks
Feeling pressure...eyes in the back of his head? Not that many guys have those...I think part of that is because he's having problems seeing things in his peripheral vision when he's looking downfield...once his confidence in his WRs improves, I expect that to change
Throwing the ball away...sometimes he makes a pass you gotta wonder why he threw it..to Evans under quadruple coverage when we were pinned deep on that first drive...something he still needs to work on

[Risin]

And did I say he should know everything? You speak of my ignorance then choose to put words in my mouth.

Pot meet Kettle


Touche.

I apologize for that stupid accusation.

[PECKERWOOD]

No Jp should not block, but your not understanding my point. If he re-adjusts his protection he should know where the pressure is going to likely come from, if he calls a true hot route, then the WR should almost always be open. For instance on a blitz (my exp) the hot route would be a quick slant, quick in, turn around, or something quick hitting. When you see the D manning up then you hot route the bomb (like Losman to Parrish)...however one example of a hot route does not mean he's getting it. It means he's got some of it but there is still work to do. But you make another point for me, if we've been in max protect almost all season and still are like swiss cheese dont you think he should start to change his drop from 5 steps to like 3? Or audible in more bubble screens (again this one is also on the coaching. Can he make the OL block better? Physically no, but he can put them in a better posistion to do their jobs. Some of this is more advanced stuff, but its all needed to be a avg NFL qb.

Thats why you saw JPL in shotgun alot versus Detroit. To give him more time to throw the ball and make the reads. They were trying to buy JP precious seconds. Let me also add, that JP looked very good in shotgun.

[DraftBoy]

Well, in his second season playing, he has progressed in this area, I'd say you're wrong.



Are you kidding me? Sometimes he gets beat by this like any QB, but many times our offensive line is getting beat by a 4 man rush, it just looks like a blitz. How many times has JP checked to his "hot read"? I'd say a whole bunch, I remember a few plays where his wide receiver didn't read the blitz, and JP hit him in the ass.



Not to get high and mighty, but I played QB. This was the responsibility of the Center for the o-line. I was responsible for pointing out a blitzer to the running back, but even then it was his job to see the same thing before I did. As far as I know, this doesn't change in the pros, but I could be wrong.



Already blasted this theory.



Once again, he has improved in this area, also pretty hard to check down when you're getting pressured by the time you goto your second read. Your second read is NEVER a checkdown. (unless you're Kelly Holcomb)



This one I totally agree with. He may never get this, look no further than Drew Bledsoe as proof.



Disagree. His internal clock is banged up right now, but it's still pretty damn good. He is starting to suffer from shell shock from this offensive line, look no further then his high passes early in the game, he is not setting his feet, because he is feeling a phantom rush.

Think of it like this, you put your hand to a lighter, and someone lights it. They are only supposed to light it every 4 seconds, so you start timing it that way. Have the person light it after 2 seconds a few times in a row, and get burned. the next few times he lights it, you're going to be pulling your hand out early, and your internal clock will be messed up.




Disagree again, as a QB you have to assume your LT will not completely whiff on your blindside. NO QB is going to feel that coming, I'm sorry.

Heck, I remember Jim Kelly in his heyday getting blindsided by Rod freakin' Woodson on multiple occasions. Shouldn't he feel that Cornerback coming? He must have stunk...



That was Rob Johnson's problem, JP has thrown the ball away at times this year. You can't throw the ball away from within the pocket, so the point is moot.

Does he hold it too long, and take a sack when he should throw it away at times? You bet, I dare you to find me a QB that doesn't.

As a QB, you tend to never want to give up on a play, call it ego, competitivness, stupidity etc. Thing is, it happens.


Your giving minscule examples for things that should be textbook by now, let me explain;
-His second season playing he has better recognized screens? How many of his passes have been bad throws into coverage where he didnt read it right? Im pretty sure about half. That says alot, not to mentioning laying his players out to get killed over the middle and batted down balls, by defenders he's not seeing.

-Reading blitzes, all you said was that our OL blows, yea this I know, but you dont see him pre-snap calling out blitzers to his OL or his backs

-I to played QB in HS, but how can you expect an OL who is bent over to read a set D? Or blitzing backers, it was my job and the RB's job at my school. In the pros the C calls out DL stunts and stuff, but he cant possibly read a blitz.

-Hot Routes theory blasted...ok...one example...yep....blasted alright

-Check Downs-Rarely does he throw to his dump option which is there, yep you guessed it in case the pressure gets to him. He rarely sees it and even more rarely uses it. But I agree the pressure on him, kinda makes this more difficult

-After doing some counts of my own for the MIN game, he was holding the ball way past 4 seconds, he's just waiting, and waiting, and waiting. His clock is broken, but its not shell shock, its just a lack of developing one.

You make good points and he has done a combo of these at times, but its the lack of consistency that will never allow him to be a good NFL qb.

[DraftBoy]

and there have been times he's done great at those...step back from the games of the past two weeks and judge him not just on those two games, but on the whole season's body of work...he improved a lot over last year in pretty much all the areas you brought up in that post above.

reading defensive schemes....definitely more to learn
recognizing blitzes, hot routes.....I remember one play a few weeks back where he did that pretty damn well...but Evans never made his blitz adjustment...woulda had a TD if Evans had done that
check downs...there are times he'll lock onto a guy...tunnel vision ala Bledsoe...happens once or twice a game...he does go through his progressions, usually...but needs to speed it up a little
touch on screens and short passes..I looked at 3 of them from yesterday's game earlier tonight...1 of 3 was done properly..a short pass to Peerless...he had that high one to Willis and another high one to Roscoe...the Parrish pass got us some yards
Internal Clock..holding onto the ball too long...doesn't happen that much...3 sacks in the 1st half..he held onto the ball too long on the 3rd of those sacks
Feeling pressure...eyes in the back of his head? Not that many guys have those...I think part of that is because he's having problems seeing things in his peripheral vision when he's looking downfield...once his confidence in his WRs improves, I expect that to change
Throwing the ball away...sometimes he makes a pass you gotta wonder why he threw it..to Evans under quadruple coverage when we were pinned deep on that first drive...something he still needs to work on

Phil does it not bother you that you can cite individual times when he did these things, instead of just having seen way to many to count?

[DraftBoy]

Thats why you saw JPL in shotgun alot versus Detroit. To give him more time to throw the ball and make the reads. They were trying to buy JP precious seconds. Let me also add, that JP looked very good in shotgun.


Good coaching adjustment then

[The_Philster]

Phil does it not bother you that you can cite individual times when he did these things, instead of just having seen way to many to count?
If I had the time or the inclination, I might go back through all the games and find these things happening more..I really can't say...I only know that some of these plays stood out in my mind

[TacklingDummy]

You could have Peyton Manning behind our line and he would look like trash.

Link?

The Colts o-line is made to look better then it is because they have a QB that has a brain.

RT: Ryan Diem; 4th rounder in 2001
RG: Jake Scott; 5th round in 2004
C: Jeff Saturday; Signed as FA on January 7, 1999…originally signed as FA with Baltimore on April 27, 1998…waived on June 12, 1998
LG: Ryan Lilja; Claimed off waivers from Kansas City on September 6, 2004…originally signed as FA by Kansas City on April 27, 2004…waived on September 5, 2004.
LT: Tarik Glenn: 19th pick in 1997

How about Denvers o line?

Matt Lepsis: Rookie FA
Ben Hamilton 4th round in 2001
C: Tom Nalen; 7th round in 1994
Cooper Carlisle: 4th round in 2000
George Foster: 20th pick in 2003

The people who want us to waste a high draft choice on a O-linemen are nuts.

[DraftBoy]

If I had the time or the inclination, I might go back through all the games and find these things happening more..I really can't say...I only know that some of these plays stood out in my mind


You can go back and look and I bet my points are more in the majority.

[PECKERWOOD]

Good coaching adjustment then
How can that be known for certain? You say JP hasnt adjusted protection and audibled hot routes, I just gave you multiple examples on how he did. Perhaps, JP adjusted into shotgun seeing as how thats what he did the majority of the time in college.

[The_Philster]

You can go back and look and I bet my points are more in the majority.
sorry...my numbers of posts notwithstanding..I have a life :D

[PECKERWOOD]

Link?

The Colts o-line is made to look better then it is because they have a QB that has a brain.

RT: Ryan Diem; 4th rounder in 2001
RG: Jake Scott; 5th round in 2004
C: Jeff Saturday; Signed as FA on January 7, 1999…originally signed as FA with Baltimore on April 27, 1998…waived on June 12, 1998
LG: Ryan Lilja; Claimed off waivers from Kansas City on September 6, 2004…originally signed as FA by Kansas City on April 27, 2004…waived on September 5, 2004.
LT: Tarik Glenn: 19th pick in 1997

How about Denvers o line?

Matt Lepsis: Rookie FA
Ben Hamilton 4th round in 2001
C: Tom Nalen; 7th round in 1994
Cooper Carlisle: 4th round in 2000
George Foster: 20th pick in 2003

The people who want us to waste a high draft choice on a O-linemen are nuts.
Not once did I make the implication that the earlier a player was taken, the better they are going to be. And if you think that, your not worth talking football with. House Ballard was an 8th round pick for the Bills, then again you could have Ruben Brown 1st rounder, who could play equally as well. I dont care if you have houdini or an escape artist behind our crap line, it wont matter. Peyton Manning has a GREAT OL, I dont know what to say to you if you think otherwise.

[Risin]

Your giving minscule examples for things that should be textbook by now, let me explain;

His second season playing he has better recognized screens? How many of his passes have been bad throws into coverage where he didnt read it right? Im pretty sure about half. That says alot, not to mentioning laying his players out to get killed over the middle and batted down balls, by defenders he's not seeing..

I don't know how old you are, but did you see much of Jim Kelly? He did plenty of this, even after 6 or 7 seasons, no QB gets it all the time. My opinion is in this case, we will agree to disagree, your standards are crazy.


Reading blitzes, all you said was that our OL blows, yea this I know, but you dont see him pre-snap calling out blitzers to his OL or his backs.

It might not be his job to do this. You do realize that different systems have different responsabilities? It is every players job on offense to recognize the blitz, and just because you don't see him pointing on TV, don't mean he isn't doing it. Unless we are in the meetings, practices and film rooms, we don't know what JP's job is in this area. I'm not saying you're wrong, but if he wasn't pointing this out, and should be, you think they'd let him go 6 games without doing it? At the very least, they'd be correcting it, but my guess is his ass would be on the bench.


-I to played QB in HS, but how can you expect an OL who is bent over to read a set D? Or blitzing backers, it was my job and the RB's job at my school. In the pros the C calls out DL stunts and stuff, but he cant possibly read a blitz..

The Centers head is up, it was his job to change offensive line blocking assignments. My job in HS and College was to read the blitzing Backer, or safety along with my RB. I had zero call as far as o-line blocking, in my senior year in college, I was given the ability to audible to bail my oline out. If I didn't, the Center adjusted accordingly.


-Hot Routes theory blasted...ok...one example...yep....blasted alright.

Dude, how many can I give you? On multiple occasions he has checked to a hot read, what else can he do?


-Check Downs-Rarely does he throw to his dump option which is there, yep you guessed it in case the pressure gets to him. He rarely sees it and even more rarely uses it. But I agree the pressure on him, kinda makes this more difficult.

I guess we agree here, maybe.


-After doing some counts of my own for the MIN game, he was holding the ball way past 4 seconds, he's just waiting, and waiting, and waiting. His clock is broken, but its not shell shock, its just a lack of developing one..

Disagree. You give me one example. I agree in that game he held the ball longer then usual, same can be said for the Jets game. No matter what you say, he's already better then some veterans I watch on Sunday Ticket every weekend. His clock is far from broken in my view...


You make good points and he has done a combo of these at times, but its the lack of consistency that will never allow him to be a good NFL qb.

Here is where I disagree, again. Most inexperienced QB's suffer from this, and some veterans do to. Brett Favre has been like this his whole career, and guess what, first ballet HoF'er.

JP will never be Brett Favre, but no QB will be great week in, and week out. Talk to me at the end of the season, we'll both have a better idea of where JP is heading.

He is leaps and bounds better than last season, how can anyone be mad at that?

[TacklingDummy]

Not once did I make the implication that the earlier a player was taken, the better they are going to be. And if you think that, your not worth talking football with. House Ballard was an 8th round pick for the Bills, then again you could have Ruben Brown 1st rounder, who could play equally as well. I dont care if you have houdini or an escape artist behind our crap line, it wont matter. Peyton Manning has a GREAT OL, I dont know what to say to you if you think otherwise.

Nope, wasn't thinking that. First part of my post was to do with yours. Peyton also makes his O-line better. JP makes his o-line worse.

Second part was to do with all the people that post around here that say we need to draft a O-linemen with 1st pick next year.

[TacklingDummy]

Matt Lienart a ROOKIE is doing better against the Bears then JP Losman did.

[The_Philster]

Matt Lienart a ROOKIE is doing better against the Bears then JP Losman did.
yeah...all by himself :rolleyes:

Keep in mind, no one is saying that JP played well against the Bears...and Leinart is playing well...but he ain't doing it alone

[Risin]

yeah...all by himself :rolleyes:

Keep in mind, no one is saying that JP played well against the Bears...and Leinart is playing well...but he ain't doing it alone


Matt will be a better QB then JP, in my opinion.

That don't mean JP is gonna suck, but I think Matt is gonna be a good one.

If only the Bills coulda picked off one of Grossman's many crappy passes, like the Cards did, the game might have been closer.

[The_Philster]

Matt will be a better QB then JP, in my opinion.

That don't mean JP is gonna suck, but I think Matt is gonna be a good one.


that's very possible....the kid is looking pretty good

[PECKERWOOD]

Nope, wasn't thinking that. First part of my post was to do with yours. Peyton also makes his O-line better. JP makes his o-line worse.

Second part was to do with all the people that post around here that we need to draft a O-linemen with 1st pick next year.
I think Peyton's OL makes Peyton look better. And that isnt a knock on Peyton, his OL is that good. To answer your second statement, I havent said anything about drafting an OL in the first round. Obviously, the way things are going now, I wouldnt be against the notion. Im not sure why you would be.

[PECKERWOOD]

Its still the first quarter, let Leinart get picked off a couple more times. Everybody will hop right off the bandwagon. Just look at billszone.com.

[ScottLawrence]

Your replacement for JP is Simms and Schaub? How many games has Schaub started again? Oh yeah 2 games started, good replacement. Simms is halfway respectable, but nowhere near as talented or proven as JP. Not to mention, Simms is going through some serious growing pains as well. Furthermore, Gruden said that Simms will remain TB's QB. He isnt even a free agent.

Lets compare Simms and JP Losman's Career stats:

Chris Simms 2005
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD>11</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>313</TD><TD>191</TD><TD>61.0</TD><TD>2035</TD><TD>6.50</TD><TD>78</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>29/205</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>81.4</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Chris Simms 2006
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD>3</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>106</TD><TD>58</TD><TD>54.7</TD><TD>585</TD><TD>5.52</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>4/32</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>46.3</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

JPL 2005
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD>9</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>228</TD><TD>113</TD><TD>49.6</TD><TD>1340</TD><TD>5.88</TD><TD>58</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>26/197</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>64.9</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
JPL 2006
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left></TD><TD>6</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>172</TD><TD>106</TD><TD>61.6</TD><TD>1121</TD><TD>6.52</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>19/161</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>80.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


"All we heard about JP was "upside, potential, Big ARM"

Potential, and upside gets coaches fired, and players traded.(Last year as an example)"- you

So Simms is just as unproven as JP, if not more UNPROVEN. What are you exactly basing your assertions on? Certainly not experience or history. You send a contradictory message my friend.

Whats with people and stats?

Screw stats, you can throw any Losman stat at me you want, and it won't matter.

Its the way they've played in limited time that have impressed me.

[PECKERWOOD]

Whats with people and stats?

Screw stats, you can throw any Losman stat at me you want, and it won't matter.

Its the way they've played in limited time that have impressed me.
Is it the 1td and 7int that has impressed you with Simms? If you have an opinion, great. But atleast try to back it up, your first post you talked out of your..... and I see the second post isnt much different.