Dollar for dollar

[the REAL Rudeman]

JP Losman ranks among the worst QBs to ever play the game, along with Rob Johnson and Ryan Leaf.

Why have we had two of the three? :huh:

[Philagape]

Gotta add Drew Brees to that list.




Oh I'm sorry, had a flashback to 2003 there.

[mikemac2001]

ya drew brees sucked early on...so did alot of qb's

[The_Philster]

ya drew brees sucked early on...so did alot of qb's
How dare you enter facts into the argument!! :mad:

[TacklingDummy]

JP Losman ranks among the worst QBs to ever play the game, along with Rob Johnson and Ryan Leaf.

Why have we had two of the three? :huh:

Rocket Arm
Can Scramble
Can't read a defense
O-line fault
Coaches fault
Youth
Upside
Potential
Athletic Ability
Bust


History repeating itself over again.

[the REAL Rudeman]

Peyton Manning was 13-3 in his second season. Tom Brady was 11-4 in his second season, having had only one start the year before.

JP aint all that young anymore.

[The_Philster]

Peyton Manning was 13-3 in his second season. Tom Brady was 11-4 in his second season, having had only one start the year before.

JP aint all that young anymore.
and what talent did they have surrounding them?




Yeah...I thought so
It's a team game in the NFL...this ain't fantasy football

[the REAL Rudeman]

a decent QB will make everyone around them better. But a ****bird like JP exacerbates a weakness that wouldn't necessarily be there.

[unpaid_bills]

JP is not one of the worst of all time, not even the worst Bill. How about Billy Joe Hobert, Todd Collins.

The one thing that dissappionted me most. The OL play especially Gandy he wiffed many blocks. They tried the extra TE did not seem to help. Until we improve the OL and blocking schemes it does not really matter who we have back there. I personally like JP he has a lot of things to learn but at least showed some promise this year (except for the last 2 games) lets give the guy a little slack - see how he does this week with the back against the wall against the Pats. Look at it this way - he is the best chance we have for now - the only way he is gonna improve is to play. :candle:

[the REAL Rudeman]

I admire your enthusiams, Unpaid. But the best chance we have of moving the ball down the field is to keep punting and hope for the fumble recovery.

[YardRat]

and what talent did they have surrounding them?




Yeah...I thought so
It's a team game in the NFL...this ain't fantasy football

I'm tiring of hearing the 'surrounding talent' argument.

Could the o-line be better? Yes. Could the defense be better, especially on the line? Yes. Could the play-calling or coaching in general be better? Yes. Could we use another quality receiving threat opposite Evans? Yes.

Give this team the best of all worlds as far as surrounding talent, though, and ANYBODY could be the QB of the Buffalo Bills. We could win with Holcomb or Nall if the rest of the roster was chock full of studs and stars. Just ask Brian Billick, Joe Gibbs, Chuck Noll, Mike Ditka, John Gruden, John Madden, Don Shula, Vince Lombardi, etc.

Is that all JP, a QB we traded up into the first round to snag, is supposed to be? Serviceable? Why the hell should the team pay first round money for 'adequacy' instead of excellence?

Star QB's in this league, one's worth the big money and status, make the team around them better by making plays when the world IS NOT perfect between the lines on the gridiron. Big time, franchise-type QB's have the ability to carry a team, not come along for the ride.

They lead, not follow. They will their teams to a better performance, and victories. They overcome the mistakes of others, not ask others to overcome the errors they make.

If all anyone is looking for out of JP is to be average or below and ride shotgun through the season, fine...those are your standards and your opinions and you're welcome to them.

I expect more out of JP. I expect him to to lead, and lead by example and performance. Thus far he hasn't shown the ability to do that, and that's disappointing.

[the REAL Rudeman]

well said, my friend. well said.

[Jan Reimers]

It is premature and totally without supporting fact to refer to Losman, "dollar for dollar," as "among the worst QBs to ever play the game. . . "

The only "worst" going on here is this ill-conceived and totally useless thread. It adds nothing relevant to any intelligent discussion of Bills' football.

[alohabillsfan]

Dollar for Dollar

JP=$425000.00
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
2004 Buffalo Bills 4 0 5 3 60.0 32 6.40 17 0 1 39.2
2005 Buffalo Bills 9 8 228 113 49.6 1340 5.88 58 8 8 64.9
2006 Buffalo Bills 6 6 172 106 61.6 1121 6.52 51 6 5 80.1

ELI=$1641000.00
Year Team GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
2004 New York 9 7 197 95 48.2 1043 5.29 52 6 9 55.4
2005 New York 16 16 557 294 52.8 3762 6.75 78 24 17 75.9
2006 New York 5 5 176 115 65.3 1329 7.55 46 11 7 92.3

BIG BEN=$655500.00
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
2004 Pittsburgh 14 13 295 196 66.4 2621 8.88 58 17 11 98.1
2005 Pittsburgh 12 12 268 168 62.7 2385 8.90 85 17 9 98.6
2006 Pittsburgh 4 4 121 71 58.7 807 6.67 50 2 7 60.2


Want to know the real rip off Carr 5.25 Million!

[the REAL Rudeman]

It is premature and totally without supporting fact to refer to Losman, "dollar for dollar," as "among the worst QBs to ever play the game. . . "

The only "worst" going on here is this ill-conceived and totally useless thread. It adds nothing relevant to any intelligent discussion of Bills' football.

Attack the poster, not the post.

[PECKERWOOD]

Peyton Manning was 13-3 in his second season. Tom Brady was 11-4 in his second season, having had only one start the year before.

JP aint all that young anymore.
Peyton Manning also played all 16 games his rookie season. Tom Brady was surrounded with a Superbowl team. Troy Aikmen was 1-15, his rookie season. Do you even think about what you are typing before you submit? Are you sure your a Bills fan? I havent heard you say one positive thing about this team ever, same could be said about Tackling Dummy. Atleast, Hhuricane says something smart every here and there.

[the REAL Rudeman]

yeah, and JP would have driven those good teams into the ground. Those guys improved. JP has shown Fk all. So YOU take a second to think about what YOU'RE saying. The guy f'king blows.

[PECKERWOOD]

yeah, and JP would have driven those good teams into the ground. Those guys improved. JP has shown Fk all. So YOU take a second to think about what YOU'RE saying. The guy f'king blows.
Shouldnt you be in school? Lord knows you could use the education. Jp Would have done this, JP would have done that. Ok Nostradumbass, how exactly do you know that? Atleast I support my opinion with evidence, you sure cant say the same thing. I dont mind if you want to criticize, JP. Plese dont be arrogant in the process though, atleast try to support your argument with information.

[the REAL Rudeman]

what's his record as a starter? That's all the proof we need.

Years in the league count for something too you know. It aint just starts.

[SquishDaFish]

Can someone close this pathetic thread or send it to spam. Maybe even ban these Anti-Bills fans. Support the damn team %^$#^

[PECKERWOOD]

what's his record as a starter? That's all the proof we need.

Years in the league count for something too you know. It aint just starts.
First off, I would like to apologize for insulting you in my previous post. But with that said, I understand your opinion on JP, however, I would still like to see you refer to factual occurences in which JP proves he is not the QB of the future.

[The_Philster]

Attack the poster, not the post.
not everyone gets off on seeing how quick they can get banned for repeated TOS violations

[the REAL Rudeman]

now what fun would getting banned be? I wouldn't be able to call you a *********.

[the REAL Rudeman]

First off, I would like to apologize for insulting you in my previous post. But with that said, I understand your opinion on JP, however, I would still like to see you refer to factual occurences in which JP proves he is not the QB of the future.

Thank you.

It's a combination of gut feeling and my magic 8-ball. You should have seen it.

"Magic 8-ball, is JP the future of the Bills?"

"Not a snowball's chance in hell."
"God no. He sucks balls."
"Are you on crack?"

It went on like that for about 20minutes straight. I've never seen anything like it.

[PECKERWOOD]

Thank you.

It's a combination of gut feeling and my magic 8-ball. You should have seen it.

"Magic 8-ball, is JP the future of the Bills?"

"Not a snowball's chance in hell."
"God no. He sucks balls."
"Are you on crack?"

It went on like that for about 20minutes straight. I've never seen anything like it.
lol, thats wacky.

[YardRat]

Can someone close this pathetic thread or send it to spam. Maybe even ban these Anti-Bills fans. Support the damn team %^$#^

Just because someone is critical of JP, it doesn't automatically make them an 'Anti-Bills fan.'

Everybody, but especially the 'JP is God' faction, has called out other individuals on the team. Gandy, Villariel, McGahee, Clements, Kelsay, Denney and on and on. Does that make them an Anti-Bills fan also? Does that mean they're not supporting the team?

Are you only a Bills fan when your opinion jibes with the general consensus, and if it doesn't you're 'Anti-' ??

[Dantheman1280]

Is Jp doing great or even living up to first round status, NO. But he is not by far terr ible. I agree he needs to win some games very soon!!! He also needs to get the ball out quicker. That being said this O-line blows!!! Willis has almost no where to run and JP runs for his life. In my opinion we need a better o-line and a better d-line. All position players are overrated!!

[Dont drink the water]

JP is not one of the worst of all time, not even the worst Bill. How about Billy Joe Hobert, Todd Collins.

The thread is innane but the subject was 'Dollar for dollar' - Billy Joe was paid jack and Todd Collins who Losman most resembles, wasn't paid that much either. JP should be compared with those who were paid well like Rob Johnson and in this case he is a much better deal economically.

[TacklingDummy]

JP should be compared with those who were paid well like Rob Johnson and in this case he is a much better deal economically.


RJ would of got the Bills a playoff win, with 1 shoe on, if it wasn't for the special teams blowing it. Theres no comparison.

[patmoran2006]

I was never a Rob Johnson fan, but the reality is (and this isnt opinion, its FACT) that through their first 14 starts as Bills, Johnson's numbers blow Losman's numbers away in completion %, touchdown passes, interceptions, and rushing yards.

[TacklingDummy]

I was never a Rob Johnson fan, but the reality is (and this isnt opinion, its FACT) that through their first 14 starts as Bills, Johnson's numbers blow Losman's numbers away in completion %, touchdown passes, interceptions, and rushing yards.

I don't understand why the Bills gave up on RJ. If he only had a O-line he could of been a STAR.

[PECKERWOOD]

I don't understand why the Bills gave up on RJ. If he only had a O-line he could of been a STAR.
Why do you spew specious comments like that? Your comparing apples and oranges here.

[TacklingDummy]

Why do you spew specious comments like that? Your comparing apples and oranges here.

Thats right, I forgot, JP should be compared to Farve and Young. Sorry.

[GFLuNEEDit]

Re: BillsFever


At least I support my opinion with evidence
What evidence ?

What evidence do you have that Losman is a competent QB in this league?

You say that Brady was surrounded by a superbowl team...how can you be sure they would have won a superbowl without him?

Thats not evidence. That's rationalizing.

Here's evidence .... they were far better last year with Holcolm at QB.

[GFLuNEEDit]

JP should be compared with those who were paid well like Rob Johnson and in this case he is a much better deal economically.

Why should he be compared to a huge failure who got paid that kind of money ?

Why not compare him to the successful QBs in that salary range ? Huh ?

I'll tell you why ....because you are engaging in more rationalizing and excuse making.

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[PECKERWOOD]

Re: BillsFever
What evidence ?

What evidence do you have that Losman is a competent QB in this league?

You say that Brady was surrounded by a superbowl team...how can you be sure they would have won a superbowl without him?

Thats not evidence. That's rationalizing.

Here's evidence .... they were far better last year with Holcolm at QB.

How about more TD's than turnovers? He is completing over 61% of his passes, and has a QB rating of 80.1. Is that enough evidence for you?

As far as your Brady comment, NE was a very good team before Bledsoe got injured. Obviously Brady is better than Bledsoe, but Im just simply pointing out that a great QB is nothing unless he has a supporting cast. So you missed my point completely, read again.

Holcomb also was in the league for a longer time than JP and had more experience than JP. If you wanna say that this team is better with Holcomb at the helm, go for it. Just realize even the JP bashers will disagree with you.

[Dont drink the water]

.

Why should he be compared to a huge failure who got paid that kind of money ?

Why not compare him to the successful QBs in that salary range ? Huh ?

I'll tell you why ....because you are engaging in more rationalizing and excuse making.


Because Bills paid both QBs and this is about Buffalo football. The original post I replied to was comparing JP to Billy Joe and Todd Collins, neither of which were paid very much, and was about cost vs performance.

Realisitically we have no idea if Losman on another team would be a success or not but we can judge whether he is being overpaid or not for his performance.

[GFLuNEEDit]

Just because someone is critical of JP, it doesn't automatically make them an 'Anti-Bills fan.'

Everybody, but especially the 'JP is God' faction, has called out other individuals on the team. Gandy, Villariel, McGahee, Clements, Kelsay, Denney and on and on. Does that make them an Anti-Bills fan also? Does that mean they're not supporting the team?

Are you only a Bills fan when your opinion jibes with the general consensus, and if it doesn't you're 'Anti-' ??Good logic. Great Post.

With one sidebar...I dont or will never identify myself as a fan of any team.
My favorite team is the team I have money on.

I am 100% convinced that these people who latch onto a player's ass like it was thier religion are extra weird.

What guy defends some football player that wouldn't give them the time of day like it was life or death ?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[PECKERWOOD]

Good logic. Great Post.

With one sidebar...I dont or will never identify myself as a fan of any team.
My favorite team is the team I have money on.

I am 100% convinced that these people who latch onto a player's ass like it was thier religion are extra weird.

What guy defends some football player that wouldn't give them the time of day like it was life or death ?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
So if your not a fan of any team, and you think its 'extra weird' to express whether or not you want a player or not, why are you even here? This a football forum, if you wanna talk to 13 year old girls, try getting AOL or something.

[GFLuNEEDit]

RE: Dont Drink The water

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by GFLuNEEDit
.

Why should he be compared to a huge failure who got paid that kind of money ?

Why not compare him to the successful QBs in that salary range ? Huh ?

I'll tell you why ....because you are engaging in more rationalizing and excuse making.




</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Because Bills paid both QBs and this is about Buffalo football. The original post I replied to was comparing JP to Billy Joe and Todd Collins, neither of which were paid very much, and was about cost vs performance.

Realisitically we have no idea if Losman on another team would be a success or not but we can judge whether he is being overpaid or not for his performance

Well then compare his win-loss record to Flutie's or Holcolm's or Kelly's

[PECKERWOOD]

Oh yeah, anytime you want to answer my response back to your JP comment and him being competent QB, feel free to. Il read it once I get back from class. Peace.

[GFLuNEEDit]

Re: BuffaloFever

So if your not a fan of any team, and you think its 'extra weird' to express whether or not you want a player or not, why are you even here? This a football forum, if you wanna talk to 13 year old girls, try getting AOL or somethingI don't need to have a crush on a player like you do to discuss football.
Where did you get the idea that a football forum is only for people infatuated with players?
Are you under the impression that all people that watch football have posters of players in thier bedrooms like you?



and you think its 'extra weird' to express whether or not you want a player or not
Yeah because I dont want a football player like you do


if you wanna talk to 13 year old girls, try getting AOL or somethingIf either of us were to be interested in 13 year olds it would be you. Only your interest would be in 13 year old boys.<!-- / message -->

[GFLuNEEDit]

Here is something you may find difficult to comprehend...

We both think Losman needs to be the starter, only for completely different reasons.

I think he needs to be the starter because before the season began I bet $200 that the Bills would win less than 8 1/2 games.

[The_Philster]

I don't understand why the Bills gave up on RJ. If he only had a O-line he could of been a STAR.
This is a joke, I know...but for the sake of argument,..what did RJ learn during his tenure here to improve his game? I honestly can't think of anything he improved in from the time we got him til the time he finally left. He just never got it...I think he wanted to, but he never learned to have confidence in his WRs.
JP sure, will hold onto the ball too long...but 2 or 3 times a game is the norm on that. Plus he's learning...he's learning to have confidence in his WRs, he's learning blitz adjustments (there was one play I remember he made the proper adjustment...but Evans failed to). A lack of consistency is his big issue right now....that and a lack of touch on screens and swing passes.

[patmoran2006]

This is a joke, I know...but for the sake of argument,..what did RJ learn during his tenure here to improve his game? I honestly can't think of anything he improved in from the time we got him til the time he finally left. He just never got it...I think he wanted to, but he never learned to have confidence in his WRs.
JP sure, will hold onto the ball too long...but 2 or 3 times a game is the norm on that. Plus he's learning...he's learning to have confidence in his WRs, he's learning blitz adjustments (there was one play I remember he made the proper adjustment...but Evans failed to). A lack of consistency is his big issue right now....that and a lack of touch on screens and swing passes.
hate to say this brother.. But what you just said, if you take out RJ and put in JP< I think thats what everyone is going to be saying in 2-3 years from now.

Actually, I don't hate to say it either, sorry to offend the JP fans.. but I want a real leader here at QB, for the betterment of the Bills

[The_Philster]

hate to say this brother.. But what you just said, if you take out RJ and put in JP< I think thats what everyone is going to be saying in 2-3 years from now.

Actually, I don't hate to say it either, sorry to offend the JP fans.. but I want a real leader here at QB, for the betterment of the Bills
JP's already learned more in the last 2 1/2 seasons or so than RJ did in his 4 seasons here...probably more than RJ learned in his entire career

[TacklingDummy]

JP's already learned more in the last 2 1/2 seasons or so than RJ did in his 4 seasons here...probably more than RJ learned in his entire career


Like what? Going by stats. RJ blows JP out of the water. And RJ wasn't really given much more of a chance then what JP has got so far.

[The_Philster]

Like what? Going by stats. RJ blows JP out of the water. And RJ wasn't really given much more of a chance then what JP has got so far.
read my post above for a couple examples...and stats don't mean squat unless you're looking for fantasy players

[PECKERWOOD]

Like what? Going by stats. RJ blows JP out of the water. And RJ wasn't really given much more of a chance then what JP has got so far.
Stats dont mean everything. It can add another dimension if you watch the person play.. We all know JP is better than RJ, without stats or anything to back it up, its pretty obvious.

[TacklingDummy]

read my post above for a couple examples...and stats don't mean squat unless you're looking for fantasy players

Your right. Looking at JPs stats. in the Lions game people would think he might of played well. Watching the game people would know just how horrible he actually played.

[TacklingDummy]

Stats dont mean everything. It can add another dimension if you watch the person play.. We all know JP is better than RJ, without stats or anything to back it up, its pretty obvious.

I've watched both of them play. And I can't say one is better then the other.

[The_Philster]

Your right. Looking at JPs stats. in the Lions game people would think he might of played well. Watching the game people would know just how horrible he actually played.
as horribly as he played, I still think it was a slight improvement over the previous week
D- vs the Bears
D+ or C- vs Lions
IMO