The way this organization treats personnel...

[OpIv37]

I'm starting to think we may have a problem here. Consider the following:

-Eric Moulds not wanting to play here
-Sam Adams being disgruntled and leaving
-Ruben Brown being disgruntled and leaving
-The Travis Henry situation
-Mularkey leaving when he could have stayed (IMO this was a good thing, but it's still a valid example of the point at hand)
-One of the good coaches hired by another team the same year as Greg Williams said he didn't want to coach here (Marvin Lewis)
-Someone said the other day that Bryant McKinney, a superior OL taken after we took Mike Williams in the same draft, said he would play anywhere but Buffalo (I have no idependent verification on this statement- just repeating what was posted).

Does this organization have a bad reputation for how it treats players and personnel? Is this preventing us from attracting players and coaches? Are these things common to other NFL teams, or is it a problem specific to the Bills?

Thoughts?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Past regime.

New Regime...

[Dr. Lecter]

Some of those guys were unhappy with TD. As I recall McKinnie did not like the weather and outdoor stadium.

The coach was Marvin Lewis (Jury is still out, imo) and he did not like the schools.

[OpIv37]

Some of those guys were unhappy with TD. As I recall McKinnie did not like the weather and outdoor stadium.

The coach was Marvin Lewis (Jury is still out, imo) and he did not like the schools.

McKinnie's a giant pussy.

I think the school thing was just a line- there are plenty of good schools around Buffalo (Amherst comes immediately to mind)

[ICE74129]

I dunno ask the player president of the NFLPA what his thoughts on this org is. That should tell you everything you need to know. Ask Bledsoe too. Hell even ask TKO see what he says.

On the coaching front, marvin Lewis' wife didn't want to move here, she didn't like the school system or some ****. Also Jim Fassel left here pissed off after his interview with ralph and TD.

[OpIv37]

I dunno ask the player president of the NFLPA what his thoughts on this org is. That should tell you everything you need to know. Ask Bledsoe too. Hell even ask TKO see what he says.

On the coaching front, marvin Lewis' wife didn't want to move here, she didn't like the school system or some ****. Also Jim Fassel left here pissed off after his interview with ralph and TD.

Fassel was no big loss.

I think TKO's comments after the Vincent situation demonstrate his opinion....

[OpIv37]

Some of those guys were unhappy with TD. As I recall McKinnie did not like the weather and outdoor stadium.

The coach was Marvin Lewis (Jury is still out, imo) and he did not like the schools.

one more thing- jury may still be out, but he's still employed as a HC so that alone proves he was better than Williams.

[OpIv37]

Past regime.

New Regime...

hopefully you're right but Moulds and Adams left even after this regime took over.

Adams may have been a system/personnel decision but Moulds certainly wasn't.

[Dont drink the water]

No every team has these kind of issues.
Every team has disgrunted players which other teams try to recover due to talent.

Eric Moulds did not want to play here anymore because he thought that QB situation was not going to improve

Sam Adams being disgruntled is a normal reaction after a couple of years; him leaving was a choice made by Bills since he did not want to play as a part of a team

Ruben had a specific problem with a coach and that coach is no longer here

Mularkey did not want his hands tied and his hands needed to be tied; his familiy also had a lot of issues but that was do to how rabid some fans are

The coach who left went to Texas because his father is sick and he wanted to be closer to him; not related.

Bryant felt jilted by Buffalo. Not too conccerned about it for if the money was right he would change his mind.

The bigger issue was when Donahoe and previous GMs let go player with little or no notice or would change their mind in middle of training camp. Marv Levy will not be so callious nor will not think ahead.

[TacklingDummy]

Marvin Lewis didn't want to come to Buffalo as coach.

And don't forget Pat Williams.

[Dr. Lecter]

I dunno ask the player president of the NFLPA what his thoughts on this org is. That should tell you everything you need to know. Ask Bledsoe too. Hell even ask TKO see what he says.

On the coaching front, marvin Lewis' wife didn't want to move here, she didn't like the school system or some ****. Also Jim Fassel left here pissed off after his interview with ralph and TD.

As a side story (That nobody will really care about) I flew to Newark onthe same plane Fassel did after his interview.

[Dr. Lecter]

one more thing- jury may still be out, but he's still employed as a HC so that alone proves he was better than Williams.

Meh. Still might not be very good. He has a discipline mess in Cinci that if it happened in Buffalo we would be sreaming about.

[kernowboy]

I note most of the players mentioned were a legacy of the Donahoe era. I think Moulds just got fed up and decided if he couldn't move to a contender he'd rather play closer to home. The moment Donahoe was sacked, Mularky was a patsy and he quickly realised that.

I do wonder if Fassel might have made a difference.

However I do not that Jauron is respected league wide as a straight shooter and a players coach. I wonder if this entered into Marv and Ralph's thinking as the fans choice Mike Sherman, does have a rep apparently for being awkward and unpopular ... you either like or loath him as a player.

[kernowboy]

I meant I do KNOW Jauron is respected league wide

D'oh

[Dr. Lecter]

Marvin Lewis didn't want to come to Buffalo as coach.

And don't forget Pat Williams.

What about him? He had problems with TD.

[Dont drink the water]

Marvin Lewis didn't want to come to Buffalo as coach.

And don't forget Pat Williams.

It was a ploy for money Dummy.

And pat Williams was unhappy because he wanted to be paid more and Bills already put their money into that egg known as Sam Adams. Bad decision in my opinion and I said so at the time.

[justasportsfan]

Past regime.

New Regime...
Na, it's easier to just blame this new regime for past problems. Why not? Some people need a scapegoat.

[ICE74129]

As a side story (That nobody will really care about) I flew to Newark onthe same plane Fassel did after his interview.I bet he was in a good mood. If I remember right not only did ralph and TD piss him off, he had the flu or a cold or something on top of it?

[justasportsfan]

And don't forget Pat Williams.
thanks for reminding us. He said if Marv was running the ship, he'd still be a bill. Thank you.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Some of those guys were unhappy with TD. As I recall McKinnie did not like the weather and outdoor stadium.

The coach was Marvin Lewis (Jury is still out, imo) and he did not like the schools.
Cincinnati schools are better? :rofl:

[OpIv37]

Na, it's easier to just blame this new regime for past problems. Why not? Some people need a scapegoat.

once again, Moulds and Adams left under THIS regime.

Oh, and as long as we're discussing scapegoats, you bring up TD every time someone mentions a problem with this team.

[THATHURMANATOR]

hopefully you're right but Moulds and Adams left even after this regime took over.

Adams may have been a system/personnel decision but Moulds certainly wasn't.
Moulds was a money decision.

He was still a solid receiver but not worth 10 mil.

[PECKERWOOD]

Moulds was a money decision.

He was still a solid receiver but not worth 10 mil.
He wouldnt keep his mouth shut either, he threw JP under da bus.

[justasportsfan]

once again, Moulds and Adams left under THIS regime.. Moulds wanted his money. He wasn't worth it.


Oh, and as long as we're discussing scapegoats, you bring up TD every time someone mentions a problem with this team.. We'll blame the next president for Iraq and 911 :up:

[SquishDaFish]

Good posting Justa

[Dr. Lecter]

once again, Moulds and Adams left under THIS regime.

Oh, and as long as we're discussing scapegoats, you bring up TD every time someone mentions a problem with this team.

Moulds was money/cap.

Adams last 2-3 years with every team and his piss poor attidute wears out its welcome.

[OpIv37]

Moulds wanted his money. He wasn't worth it.

We'll blame the next president for Iraq and 911 :up:

Right, it's all TD's fault.

It's TD's fault that FA Tripplett hasn't earned his salary yet.

It's TD's fault that the two new starters on the OL have made it marginally better at best.

It's TD's fault that Royal has done nothing from the TE spot.

It's TD's fault that Marv gave Denney a big contract for inconsistent performance.

It's TD's fault that Clements was franchised for $7.23 million a season to do next to nothing.

Yup, all TD's fault.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Op You just hate on whatever is in front of you.

You hated on TD when he was here.

Now you hate on Marv cause he is here.

[OpIv37]

Op You just hate on whatever is in front of you.

You hated on TD when he was here.

Now you hate on Marv cause he is here.

Nope, I hate on losing.

When TD was here, we were losing.

Marv's here, and we are losing.

Hell, I would have even been easier on Marv if we were improving. Six games into the season, and the only thing that's any better than last year is the S position. That's not good enough.

[Dr. Lecter]

Nope, I hate on losing.

When TD was here, we were losing.

Marv's here, and we are losing.

Hell, I would have even been easier on Marv if we were improving. Six games into the season, and the only thing that's any better than last year is the S position. That's not good enough.

Marv has been here for six ****ing games. How can you say he is losing? Jesus, most of this team has to built back up from the ground.How much time does he get in your eyes? Only 6 games?

We all hate losing. Some of us realize that Marv inherited a mess and it is not being fixed in 6 games.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Every time I see Charlie Weis on TV, I want to cry.

What idiot didn't hire him?

[OpIv37]

Marv has been here for six ****ing games. How can you say he is losing? Jesus, most of this team has to built back up from the ground.How much time does he get in your eyes? Only 6 games?

We all hate losing. Some of us realize that Marv inherited a mess and it is not being fixed in 6 games.

so far, Marv's draft looks good and his FA's look terrible.

Again, I would settle for improvement, but so far ONE position has shown improvement in six games. I'm sorry, that's just not good enough.

[Dr. Lecter]

Every time I see Charlie Weis on TV, I want to cry.

What idiot didn't hire him?

That would be TD.

But successful college HC (and 1.5 years is not enough to evaluate - Look at Willingham) does nto mean he woudl be good in the NFL.

[ICE74129]

so far, Marv's draft looks good and his FA's look terrible.

Again, I would settle for improvement, but so far ONE position has shown improvement in six games. I'm sorry, that's just not good enough.Look marv thought he could pull a new england with mid tier FA's. Thats fine, but he still has to pay for a big time LT, RG, DT, OLB, MLB and CB to go with the Mid tier guys. Hell pay for a top #2 WR as well.

We need about 7 positions that he must address in FA next year with top talent. if he can do that then we are going to be ok if he can draft good as well.

[Dr. Lecter]

so far, Marv's draft looks good and his FA's look terrible.

Again, I would settle for improvement, but so far ONE position has shown improvement in six games. I'm sorry, that's just not good enough.

As much you will hate this, the D-line is better too. More sacks. More pressure. The O-line, while still struggling, is better.

[justasportsfan]

Marv has been here for six ****ing games. How can you say he is losing? Jesus, most of this team has to built back up from the ground.How much time does he get in your eyes? Only 6 games?

We all hate losing. Some of us realize that Marv inherited a mess and it is not being fixed in 6 games.
Let's be patient w/ people without common sense. He is a bills fan after all who doesn't know what the term rebuild means and what comes with it.

[OpIv37]

As much you will hate this, the D-line is better too. More sacks. More pressure. The O-line, while still struggling, is better.

I completely disagree.

The only game where the DL got sufficient pressure was the Miami game, and that was due to Culpepper holding the ball too long. And the run D is pathetic.

The OL is marginally improved but they're still a liability overall.

[OpIv37]

Let's be patient w/ people without common sense. He is a bills fan after all who doesn't know what the term rebuild means and what comes with it.

so you honestly think the rebuilding is going well with only one position showing sufficient improvement through 6 games?

[Devin]

I'm starting to think we may have a problem here. Consider the following:

-Eric Moulds not wanting to play here
-Sam Adams being disgruntled and leaving
-Ruben Brown being disgruntled and leaving
-The Travis Henry situation
-Mularkey leaving when he could have stayed (IMO this was a good thing, but it's still a valid example of the point at hand)
-One of the good coaches hired by another team the same year as Greg Williams said he didn't want to coach here (Marvin Lewis)
-Someone said the other day that Bryant McKinney, a superior OL taken after we took Mike Williams in the same draft, said he would play anywhere but Buffalo (I have no idependent verification on this statement- just repeating what was posted).

Does this organization have a bad reputation for how it treats players and personnel? Is this preventing us from attracting players and coaches? Are these things common to other NFL teams, or is it a problem specific to the Bills?

Thoughts?

It would certainly explain a lot.

[justasportsfan]

Every time I see Charlie Weis on TV, I want to cry.

What idiot didn't hire him?That's MArv's fault too.

[justasportsfan]

so you honestly think the rebuilding is going well with only one position showing sufficient improvement through 6 games?after six games you can already tell? Why someone forgot to tell us JP has had more than 6 games. Let's get rid of the guy.

And to answer your question, yes. I think this team is better. But I know you'll disagree so there's nothing esle to say.

[OpIv37]

after six games you can already tell? Why someone forgot to tell us JP has had more than 6 games. Let's get rid of the guy.

And to answer your question, yes. I think this team is better. But I know you'll disagree so there's nothing esle to say.

they're better based on what? We still haven't scored 20 points in a game, we still can't stop the run, we still only have one receiver, we still have a TE that's non-existent in the offense, we still have an underacheiving pass rush, we still have underachieving CB's, our kick and punt returning is obviously worse- I just don't see any improvement. And it's been 6 games. It's not like it's week 1. If we're supposed to improve over the season, wouldn't it make sense that there would be some noticeable improvement at this point? Well, where is it?

[justasportsfan]

they're better based on what? We still haven't scored 20 points in a game, we still can't stop the run, we still only have one receiver, we still have a TE that's non-existent in the offense, we still have an underacheiving pass rush, we still have underachieving CB's, our kick and punt returning is obviously worse- I just don't see any improvement. And it's been 6 games. It's not like it's week 1. If we're supposed to improve over the season, wouldn't it make sense that there would be some noticeable improvement at this point? Well, where is it?
I'd explain but you wouldn't understand. So Why bother? It's like trying to explain to FTP.

[OpIv37]

I'd explain but you wouldn't understand. So Why bother? It's like trying to explain to FTP.

or, this is your cop out for having no evidence of improvement. But whatever.

[justasportsfan]

or, this is your cop out for having no evidence of improvement. But whatever.
I'll name one just to be nice to you, . Our run D is ranked 19 . THAT"S A FACT .

[patmoran2006]

I'll name one just to be nice to you, . Our run D is ranked 19 . THAT"S A FACT .
That does include games against a Miami team with an offensive coordinator that was too stupid to pound Ronnie Brown in week two, or a Minnesota offense that gave CHester Taylor like what, four carries in the second half of a relatively close game?

I"ll give that our pass rush is better, even though those numbers are skewed by one game against Miami, but our run defense is still weaker than a Puma sneaker.

But... Its only been six games.. younger teams TEND to get better as the season goes on.. We'll see

[OpIv37]

I'll name one just to be nice to you, . Our run D is ranked 19 . THAT"S A FACT .

but, we still can't stop the run well enough to win games. And 19th isn't exactly stellar. Numerically it may be better than last year, but on the field what's the real difference?

[justasportsfan]

Op You just hate on whatever is in front of you.

You hated on TD when he was here.

Now you hate on Marv cause he is here.every board has to have it's resident whiner. Op's just doing what he does best. Notice , once he has no answer for something he B1tched about he moves on to something else to b!tch about?


To think that he was all for Moulds leaving. Now he's b1tching about it. :coocoo:

[justasportsfan]

but, we still can't stop the run well enough to win games. And 19th isn't exactly stellar. Numerically it may be better than last year, but on the field what's the real difference?


I didn't post that to tell you if we're good or not. You wanted evidence, I gave you evidence. that's all.

[justasportsfan]

That does include games against a Miami team with an offensive coordinator that was too stupid to pound Ronnie Brown in week two, or a Minnesota offense that gave CHester Taylor like what, four carries in the second half of a relatively close game?

I"ll give that our pass rush is better, even though those numbers are skewed by one game against Miami, but our run defense is still weaker than a Puma sneaker.

But... Its only been six games.. younger teams TEND to get better as the season goes on.. We'll see


Pat, I never said our run D is great. I just answered OP's request for evidence where we are better . That's all.

[patmoran2006]

Moulds left primarily because he had no faith in this team or Losman... And he figured it would take him the rest of his career before we'd be a contender again.

If he had even an inkling this team was heading in teh right direction quickly, he would've restructured.. He knew his legacy here would be tarnished by demanding a trade, he felt things were that bad, he didnt care.

Not saying his opinons on the Bills was right or wrong, but its real obvious what his thinking was

[patmoran2006]

I dont have a big a problem with our Defensive tackles as others do.. I like Kyle Williams and think he'll become a good starter. Tim Anderson blows, but so what he'll be gone next year anyway. McCargo was getting better before being injured, and maybe once Williams gets better as a starter and we get a better DE than Kelsay (hopefully) next year, Tripplett will be more effective.

DE and LT, and Guard are much bigger concerns to me than DT

[justasportsfan]

Moulds left primarily because he had no faith in this team or Losman... And he figured it would take him the rest of his career before we'd be a contender again.

If he had even an inkling this team was heading in teh right direction quickly, he would've restructured.. He knew his legacy here would be tarnished by demanding a trade, he felt things were that bad, he didnt care.

Not saying his opinons on the Bills was right or wrong, but its real obvious what his thinking was


No one really cares why Moulds left. Just get with the program. It's Marv's fault .

[OpIv37]

every board has to have it's resident whiner. Op's just doing what he does best. Notice , once he has no answer for something he B1tched about he moves on to something else to b!tch about?


To think that he was all for Moulds leaving. Now he's b1tching about it. :coocoo:

Yes I was against Moulds leaving.

But in this case I didn't make a value judgement- regardless of my personal opinion of Moulds leaving, he was disgruntled when he left. That's the purpose of this thread- not whether or not we'd be better off if he stayed.

Notice I never complained about Moulds leaving- I simply stated the conditions under which he left. Your arguments work so much better when you completely mischaracterize what I say.

[OpIv37]

I didn't post that to tell you if we're good or not. You wanted evidence, I gave you evidence. that's all.

that's ok- 130 yards to the Lions is better. I understand.

[justasportsfan]

Yes I was against Moulds leaving.

But in this case I didn't make a value judgement- regardless of my personal opinion of Moulds leaving, he was disgruntled when he left. That's the purpose of this thread- not whether or not we'd be better off if he stayed.

Notice I never complained about Moulds leaving- I simply stated the conditions under which he left. Your arguments work so much better when you completely mischaracterize what I say.


it's all MArv's fault.

[justasportsfan]

that's ok- 130 yards to the Lions is better. I understand.
You wanted evidence, I gave it to you. Just swallow it.

[OpIv37]

it's all MArv's fault.

that's debatable. Clearly Moulds' grievances started before Marv got there. Whether Marv could have done anything to make him stay or not- who knows? I wasn't there.

[justasportsfan]

I wasn't there.but you where there when we weren't able to land McFarland or any other player to help improve this team. You had to be since you are blaming Marv for Td's problems.

:up:

[OpIv37]

but you where there when we weren't able to land McFarland or any other player to help improve this team. You had to be since you are blaming Marv for Td's problems.

:up:

Nope, blaming Marv for Marv's problems- basically lack of production from FA's that MARV signed and players he re-signed, and questionable coaching from MARV's coaches.

And anyway, the whole point of this thread was whether or not this organization is hurting itself by having a bad reputation for how it treats players. If that perception does exist, it takes more than swapping TD for Marv to change it.

[justasportsfan]

Nope, blaming Marv for Marv's problems- basically lack of production from FA's that MARV signed and players he re-signed, and questionable coaching from MARV's coaches.

And anyway, the whole point of this thread was whether or not this organization is hurting itself by having a bad reputation for how it treats players. If that perception does exist, it takes more than swapping TD for Marv to change it.
I didn't know MArv had a bad reputation for treating it's players. If you say so.

[OpIv37]

I didn't know MArv had a bad reputation for treating it's players. If you say so.

you're making the faulty assumption that Marv=Buffalo Bills. If the Buffalo Bills have a bad reputation amongst players, it isn't going to instantly change because of Marv.

[Typ0]

Ralph Wilson is our problem. He's smart enough to know he can't do it any more so he hires TD and gives him full control. TD sucks and can't get it done without a strong owner behind him. RW spins his wheels with TD for a season then fires him. RW turns to maybe the only guy in the world he just might trust after the TD debacle. The problem is ML has been sitting in a broadcast booth and he's also aging. ML is old school and him and RW sit around talking about the "good ole boys" and the "olden days". ML is still sharp as a tack so maybe he can get us out of this mess...but maybe he's just too old school to adjust to todays NFL requirements too.