What other teams in the NFL could J.P. Losman start for?

[Mudflap1]

Right now, what other team in the NFL would consider starting J.P. Losman if he was on their team? Be honest here, seriously. You have to consider the team's situation and who the coach is:

Buffalo -- yes
New England -- no
Miami -- no
NY Jets -- no

Cincinnati -- no
Pittsburgh -- no
Clevelend -- maybe, although I have doubts to whether Crennel would choose Losman over Frye
Baltimore -- no

Indianapolis -- no
Houston -- no
Jacksonville -- no
Tennessee -- no

San Diego -- no
Denver -- no
Oakland -- probably yes, this would probably be his best fit other than Buffalo
Kansas City -- no, at least probably not

Philadelphia -- no
NY Giants -- no
Washington -- no
Dallas -- no

Detroit -- no, I thought about it, but Kitna clearly outplayed J.P. last week, so no
Minnesota -- no
Chicago -- no
Green Bay -- no

New Orleans -- no
Atlanta -- no
Carolina -- no
Tampa Bay -- probably not, can't see Losman w/ Gruden

St. Louis -- no
San Francisco -- no
Arizona -- no
Seattle -- no

I am not saying J.P. can't become a good quarterback. Heck, I'm not even saying that he is completely worthless right now. The fact remains though, most of these teams would not start him as he is playing right now, given their situations and who they have on their rosters. It's coincidental somewhat, but the Bills are the bottom of the barrel, and while it's not all Losman's fault by any stretch, he is not an asset to us yet.

Jon

[TacklingDummy]

So all we need is for Oakland to start winning some games so we can get Quinn?

[Mudflap1]

So all we need is for Oakland to start winning some games so we can get Quinn?

Problem is, I'm not sure how good Quinn really will be in the pros. Could be Joe Montana, could be Rick Mirer.

Jon

[GFLuNEEDit]

I think you made a mistake with Frye.

Frye looks to me like he might have some ability.

[Mudflap1]

I think you made a mistake with Frye.

Frye looks to me like he might have some ability.

Agreed. That's why I said "maybe." I'm giving J.P. the benefit of the doubt that Crennel would look at him also as a young guy that is showing some potential and would consider it. One could argue that Frye would be the choice going away.

Jon

[TacklingDummy]

Problem is, I'm not sure how good Quinn really will be in the pros. Could be Joe Montana, could be Rick Mirer.

Jon

True.

That could be said for anyone who's drafted.

All im saying is if Quinn is on the board when the Bills pick they have to pick him.

[Mudflap1]

True.

That could be said for anyone who's drafted.

All im saying is if Quinn is on the board when the Bills pick they have to pick him.

"All I'm saying is if Leinart is on the board when the Bills pick they have to pick him."

"All I'm saying is if Cutler is on the board when the Bills pick they have to pick him."

;)

Jon

[Typ0]

good way to sum up our situation I would say.

[Typ0]

"All I'm saying is if Leinart is on the board when the Bills pick they have to pick him."

"All I'm saying is if Cutler is on the board when the Bills pick they have to pick him."

;)

Jon


yeah...I guess we couldn't decide which one we wanted to we comprimised and took a safety.

[Mudflap1]

yeah...I guess we couldn't decide which one we wanted to we comprimised and took a safety.

LOL! I like your rationale...

Jon

[Philagape]

Irrelevant point. What's that say other than most teams have a QB, and of course a coach would go with the guy he knows? Many other QBs -- say, Plummer, Kitna, Bledsoe, Carr, Grossman, Brunell, Johnson, any Miami QB, for example -- wouldn't be able to get a job anywhere else either unless there were a vacancy. There are few dependably good QBs in the league right now.

[Mudflap1]

Irrelevant point. What's that say other than most teams have a QB, and of course a coach would go with the guy he knows? Many other QBs -- say, Plummer, Kitna, Bledsoe, Carr, Grossman, Brunell, Johnson, any Miami QB, for example -- wouldn't be able to get a job anywhere else either unless there were a vacancy. There are few dependably good QBs in the league right now.

Um, most of those guys (if not all) would be starting for the Bills if they were here.....

Raiders, Chiefs, Browns, Bucs, and some others would strongly consider some of these guys also, not to mention the teams that wouldn't have them on their rosters anymore (Redskins, Bears, Lions, Texans, etc.).

Jon

[Typ0]

I guess maybe Wash. would be looking beyond Brunnell at this point since they lost to Vince Young, the rookie who "looked like a veteran" (jeff fisher) last week. Maybe if they had a property like JP Losman they would be willing to wait through five or six years of losing seasons to see if he'll pan out.

[Philagape]

Um, most of those guys (if not all) would be starting for the Bills if they were here.....

Raiders, Chiefs, Browns, Bucs, and some others would strongly consider some of these guys also...

Jon

Um, no. They'd all get killed here, like Bledsoe did for 2 1/2 years.

[Mudflap1]

I guess maybe Wash. would be looking beyond Brunnell at this point since they lost to Vince Young, the rookie who "looked like a veteran" (jeff fisher) last week. Maybe if they had a property like JP Losman they would be willing to wait through five or six years of losing seasons to see if he'll pan out.

Gregg Williams would be a perfect fit for J.P.!

They have Jason Campbell too though. So no, even in "sarcastic world" it wouldn't pan out for J.P.

Jon

[kernowboy]

Actually I think the list is very faulty as most team have the QB of the future lined up. When you think about it you are considering Oakland, Miami, Green Bay, and Baltimore as possibly going afer a QB in the first round and a lot of them have previously drafted a QB of the future, and might be reluctant to invest another first round pick. I can see it being similar to the draft of 2005 where QBs could go into free fall as other teams pick other needs.

[Mudflap1]

Um, no. They'd all get killed here, like Bledsoe did for 2 1/2 years.

Maybe they'd get killed, but they'd start over Losman.

I'm not a Kelly Holcomb fan. We got rid of 22 guys from last year because we were "upgrading" the roster this year. Holcomb was 4-4 with that crew. That's almost unbelievable. That being said, I don't think he can play now, his arm seems to be completely shot.

Jon

[GFLuNEEDit]

Irrelevant point. What's that say other than most teams have a QB, and of course a coach would go with the guy he knows? Many other QBs -- say, Plummer, Kitna, Bledsoe, Carr, Grossman, Brunell, Johnson, any Miami QB, for example -- wouldn't be able to get a job anywhere else either unless there were a vacancy. There are few dependably good QBs in the league right now.

Brad Johnson is not dependable ?
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Mudflap1]

Actually I think the list is very faulty as most team have the QB of the future lined up. When you think about it you are considering Oakland, Miami, Green Bay, and Baltimore as possibly going afer a QB in the first round and a lot of them have previously drafted a QB of the future, and might be reluctant to invest another first round pick. I can see it being similar to the draft of 2005 where QBs could go into free fall as other teams pick other needs.

I'm not talking about the future, I'm talking about now. McNair starts over Losman, Favre starts over Losman, Culpepper starts over Losman. If you consider the guy of the future on the team, that puts Losman even further down the depth chart.

Thanks for helping me with making my point.

Jon

[Philagape]

Maybe they'd get killed, but they'd start over Losman.

I'm not a Kelly Holcomb fan. We got rid of 22 guys from last year because we were "upgrading" the roster this year. Holcomb was 4-4 with that crew. That's almost unbelievable. That being said, I don't think he can play now, his arm seems to be completely shot.

Jon

Yeah, we've really upgraded :rofl:

JP has not had the worst season in the league. He's had three good games, one bad, and two mixed. He's still in the mid-range of the pack. He hasn't made any mistakes that veteran starters don't make too. Veterans take safeties, veterans throw INTs, veterans take bad sacks, veterans throw off-target passes. While he needs to cut down on them, they're a minority of his plays and are NOT indicative of his overall development, only that he's still developing with less than a full season of actual game action, which is overwhelmingly the most significant standard for experience.

[Mudflap1]

Irrelevant point. What's that say other than most teams have a QB, and of course a coach would go with the guy he knows? Many other QBs -- say, Plummer, Kitna, Bledsoe, Carr, Grossman, Brunell, Johnson, any Miami QB, for example -- wouldn't be able to get a job anywhere else either unless there were a vacancy. There are few dependably good QBs in the league right now.

By the way, besides Carr and Harrington, every player you listed here has playoff starting experience, if not Super Bowl experience. That's a huge advantage that these guys have over Losman.

Jon

[Philagape]

.

Brad Johnson is not dependable ?
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Dependably good? No. He has more INTs than TDs this year. Maybe five years ago, but he's way past his prime.

[X-Era]

Right now, what other team in the NFL would consider starting J.P. Losman if he was on their team? Be honest here, seriously. You have to consider the team's situation and who the coach is:

Buffalo -- yes
New England -- no
Miami -- no
NY Jets -- no

Cincinnati -- no
Pittsburgh -- no
Clevelend -- maybe, although I have doubts to whether Crennel would choose Losman over Frye
Baltimore -- no

Indianapolis -- no
Houston -- no
Jacksonville -- no
Tennessee -- no

San Diego -- no
Denver -- no
Oakland -- probably yes, this would probably be his best fit other than Buffalo
Kansas City -- no, at least probably not

Philadelphia -- no
NY Giants -- no
Washington -- no
Dallas -- no

Detroit -- no, I thought about it, but Kitna clearly outplayed J.P. last week, so no
Minnesota -- no
Chicago -- no
Green Bay -- no

New Orleans -- no
Atlanta -- no
Carolina -- no
Tampa Bay -- probably not, can't see Losman w/ Gruden

St. Louis -- no
San Francisco -- no
Arizona -- no
Seattle -- no

I am not saying J.P. can't become a good quarterback. Heck, I'm not even saying that he is completely worthless right now. The fact remains though, most of these teams would not start him as he is playing right now, given their situations and who they have on their rosters. It's coincidental somewhat, but the Bills are the bottom of the barrel, and while it's not all Losman's fault by any stretch, he is not an asset to us yet.

Jon

He starts for ours thats all that matters.

Ask the question in a few years, I believe many will wish they had him.

[Mudflap1]

Yeah, we've really upgraded :rofl:

JP has not had the worst season in the league. He's had three good games, one bad, and two mixed. He's still in the mid-range of the pack. He hasn't made any mistakes that veteran starters don't make too. Veterans take safeties, veterans throw INTs, veterans take bad sacks, veterans throw off-target passes. While he needs to cut down on them, they're a minority of his plays and are NOT indicative of his overall development, only that he's still developing with less than a full season of actual game action, which is overwhelmingly the most significant standard for experience.

I agree, he has not had the worst season in the league. I also agree he's had a few decent games. However, he's also padded his stats by picking up a lot of table scraps in trash time. That all being said, at the end of the day, he and the team have not gotten it done. Not all is fault, but true. Like I said, it's interesting to see right now that he probably would be hard pressed to start on 1 or 2 other teams. That's all I'm saying.

I think the underlying difference here are the intangibles that stats don't cover. Poise, control, leadership. These are all things Losman needs to build on. Then maybe I'd change the opinion of him being able to start on other teams.

Jon

[Mudflap1]

He starts for ours thats all that matters.

Ask the question in a few years, I believe many will wish they had him.

I thought of another team he can start for! University of Buffalo!

Seriously though, it's an interesting relevant discussion. I'm not saying I hate the guy, he's totally worthless, he's had 6 bad games, or the team has lost 4 games strictly because of him. But he is one of the worst starters in the league right now, arguably the worst, right now. He's not showing he's a solid starter in this league yet. It's just not happening yet.

You're right. Maybe this will change by the end of the year, or in a few years. Right now it's not though, and I think that's important for all of the J.P.-lovers to consider.

Jon

[Mudflap1]

He starts for ours thats all that matters.

Ask the question in a few years, I believe many will wish they had him.

Think fast -- if Leinart was on the Bills right now, who would/should start?

Jon

[GFLuNEEDit]

Right now, what other team in the NFL would consider starting J.P. Losman if he was on their team?

Seneca Vocational

[Philagape]

I thought of another team he can start for! University of Buffalo!

Seriously though, it's an interesting relevant discussion. I'm not saying I hate the guy, he's totally worthless, he's had 6 bad games, or the team has lost 4 games strictly because of him. But he is one of the worst starters in the league right now, arguably the worst, right now. He's not showing he's a solid starter in this league yet. It's just not happening yet.

You're right. Maybe this will change by the end of the year, or in a few years. Right now it's not though, and I think that's important for all of the J.P.-lovers to consider.

Jon

What those who aren't willing to give up on him are considering is that it's six weeks into the season, and this is a bad team. We knew he would make bad plays. We knew that he's not the type of QB with Leinart pedigree who can succeed right away, that he's a project who will take time. What's the hurry? This team isn't going anywhere. He's not holding back an otherwise good team. There aren't many "solid starters" on this team at all.

[Mudflap1]

What those who aren't willing to give up on him are considering is that it's six weeks into the season, and this is a bad team. We knew he would make bad plays. We knew that he's not the type of QB with Leinart pedigree who can succeed right away, that he's a project who will take time. What's the hurry? This team isn't going anywhere. He's not holding back an otherwise good team. There aren't many "solid starters" on this team at all.

I agree with this statement. Arguably only 10-15 guys on this team could start anywhere else. This really isn't directed at you, as you seem to be logical. However, most J.P.-lovers on this board seem to think we should shun Leinart, Cutler, etc. because J.P. is where it's at. Well, right now he's not. He wouldn't start anywhere else (maybe Oakland), and all of the other starters would probably start here, hands down. All I'm saying is, that says something. Things may change. Hopefully they do. But that's where we're at right now.

Jon

[X-Era]

Think fast -- if Leinart was on the Bills right now, who would/should start?

Jon

I actually rooted for drafting Leinhart if the Bills believed that JP wasnt the answer. Go ahead check the posts, its all there.

The Bills front office chose NOT to draft Leinhart. Its now a moot point.

If Leinhart was on this team, IMO JP would NOT be.

But, I dont want to be a clown who wont answer a direct question.

I would probably start Leinhart. His last games shows he has a hot hand. Now, the question is will it continue? I honestly believe it wont. I think he will fall flat on his face for a few games and it will only point out that young QB's play like young QB's unless they have a SB supporting cast. Im not sure that the Cards do, and I KNOW that we dont.

Now I will answer the question you should have asked. Is JP our answer?

My answer is the jury is out. I dont honestly know how much of the teams losses are due to him or are due to the team not being good enough. Furthermore, I think if we improve our overall talent level at a few key spots, JP will flourish and will in fact become all we need. Are there other QB's who could do it? sure, probably. Leinhart? who the hell knows. We are talking about the guy after 2 games.

The better question is, will the Bills get any other guy likely to take us to the promise land? My honest answer is no until the JP era is over. And even then, they have a poor track record of getting a guy with a good chance.

[Mudflap1]

I actually rooted for drafting Leinhart if the Bills believed that JP wasnt the answer. Go ahead check the posts, its all there.

The Bills front office chose NOT to draft Leinhart. Its now a moot point.

If Leinhart was on this team, IMO JP would NOT be.

But, I dont want to be a clown who wont answer a direct question.

I would probably start Leinhart. His last games shows he has a hot hand. Now, the question is will it continue? I honestly believe it wont. I think he will fall flat on his face for a few games and it will only point out that young QB's play like young QB's unless they have a SB supporting cast. Im not sure that the Cards do, and I KNOW that we dont.

Now I will answer the question you should have asked. Is JP our answer?

My answer is the jury is out. I dont honestly know how much of the teams losses are due to him or are due to the team not being good enough. Furthermore, I think if we improve our overall talent level at a few key spots, JP will flourish and will in fact become all we need. Are there other QB's who could do it? sure, probably. Leinhart? who the hell knows. We are talking about the guy after 2 games.

The better question is, will the Bills get any other guy likely to take us to the promise land? My honest answer is no until the JP era is over. And even then, they have a poor track record of getting a guy with a good chance.

Solid answer. Honest response. I'm not against J.P. Just want to see him start to show some intangibles. So far he hasn't.

Jon

[X-Era]

Right now, what other team in the NFL would consider starting J.P. Losman if he was on their team? Be honest here, seriously. You have to consider the team's situation and who the coach is:

Buffalo -- yes
New England -- no
Miami -- no
NY Jets -- no

Cincinnati -- no
Pittsburgh -- no
Clevelend -- maybe, although I have doubts to whether Crennel would choose Losman over Frye
Baltimore -- no

Indianapolis -- no
Houston -- no
Jacksonville -- no
Tennessee -- no

San Diego -- no
Denver -- no
Oakland -- probably yes, this would probably be his best fit other than Buffalo
Kansas City -- no, at least probably not

Philadelphia -- no
NY Giants -- no
Washington -- no
Dallas -- no

Detroit -- no, I thought about it, but Kitna clearly outplayed J.P. last week, so no
Minnesota -- no
Chicago -- no
Green Bay -- no

New Orleans -- no
Atlanta -- no
Carolina -- no
Tampa Bay -- probably not, can't see Losman w/ Gruden

St. Louis -- no
San Francisco -- no
Arizona -- no
Seattle -- no

I am not saying J.P. can't become a good quarterback. Heck, I'm not even saying that he is completely worthless right now. The fact remains though, most of these teams would not start him as he is playing right now, given their situations and who they have on their rosters. It's coincidental somewhat, but the Bills are the bottom of the barrel, and while it's not all Losman's fault by any stretch, he is not an asset to us yet.

Jon

Wait, doesnt that mean Holcomb would be the backup to a guy who wouldnt start on any other team???!!!!

Why do I think thats funny?

[Philagape]

I've already conceded that Leinart will be the better QB. He was drafted below where he should have been. But comparisons to JP are irrelevant because Whitner's a factor too.

[The_Philster]

Think fast -- if Leinart was on the Bills right now, who would/should start?

Jon
no way of knowing...how would Leinart perform here, in Buffalo, in the Buffalo systems, with the Buffalo team, for the Buffalo coaches?

There's no way of knowing for sure

[X-Era]

I've already conceded that Leinart will be the better QB. He was drafted below where he should have been. But comparisons to JP are irrelevant because Whitner's a factor too.

Im not willing to concede that yet. For every Peyton, theres a Leaf, Couch, Smith.

And then you can land a Brady every now and again.

Lets take a look at Leinharts first 13 stars vs. JP's when he gets there. I bet it will be strikingly similar.

Furthermore, I honestly think the Cards have more talent on O.

McGahee inst Edge, yet at least.

Evans may be Boldin or Fitz but even thats arguable. Our other WR ISNT either of them.

Their o-line is probably about as good as ours overall.

I have said over and over that if we get serious and get JP some talent around him that he, and yes many other QB's, would flourish.

I continue to believe that our talent at the skill positions is not good enough overall, I would keep Evans, but after that I could argue for upgrades.

[GFLuNEEDit]

I would probably start Leinhart. His last games shows he has a hot hand. Now, the question is will it continue? I honestly believe it wont. I think he will fall flat on his face for a few games and it will only point out that young QB's play like young QB's unless they have a SB supporting cast. Im not sure that the Cards do, and I KNOW that we dont.


On a personal level I dont like Lienhart. So I hope you're right. But from what I see he looks very composed. He throws the ball with accuracy consistently.

He looks like he knows where to go with the ball. What he did in that Chicago is unlikely to be a fluke.

[X-Era]

On a personal level I dont like Lienhart. So I hope you're right. But from what I see he looks very composed. He throws the ball with accuracy consistently.

He looks like he knows where to go with the ball. What he did in that Chicago is unlikely to be a fluke.

Time will tell, time will tell.

It again doesnt matter, he isnt our QB. Did we make a mistake? time again will tell.

[patmoran2006]

Oakland, Detroit, Washington he would start for sure..

Tampa possibly, but Gradkowksi is going good, so I doubt that now...

Umm.. I think that's it.. damn, thats actually pretty sad. Unless Im missing teams, that means we have one of the five ****tiest starting QB's in the league..

[patmoran2006]

Im not willing to concede that yet. For every Peyton, theres a Leaf, Couch, Smith.

And then you can land a Brady every now and again.

Lets take a look at Leinharts first 13 stars vs. JP's when he gets there. I bet it will be strikingly similar.

Furthermore, I honestly think the Cards have more talent on O.

McGahee inst Edge, yet at least.

Evans may be Boldin or Fitz but even thats arguable. Our other WR ISNT either of them.

Their o-line is probably about as good as ours overall.

I have said over and over that if we get serious and get JP some talent around him that he, and yes many other QB's, would flourish.

I continue to believe that our talent at the skill positions is not good enough overall, I would keep Evans, but after that I could argue for upgrades.
Is that going to be your excuse for EVERY QB comparison?? Seriously? Their RB is better than ours.. Their 3rd WR is better than ours... Their tight end can run a 10 yard out quicker than ours.. Their right guard can pick up a stunk faster than ours??

You need a hug man?

[patmoran2006]

He starts for ours thats all that matters.

Ask the question in a few years, I believe many will wish they had him.
I believe in a few years there will be many teams that will want him.. WHo doesnt want a one-time starter who can hold a clip board?

[X-Era]

Is that going to be your excuse for EVERY QB comparison?? Seriously? Their RB is better than ours.. Their 3rd WR is better than ours... Their tight end can run a 10 yard out quicker than ours.. Their right guard can pick up a stunk faster than ours??

You need a hug man?

Reading comprehension might help you.

Fitz and Boldin are 1 and 1a.

Edge isnt better than McGahee? Please give some facts here.

Roth didnt benefit from a SB caliper team?

THATS my point.

Its no excuse. There will be times when we will need our QB to win us games.

But, IMO, it shouldnt be this early in his career and as often as it has been.

That said, ANY QB we stick with should be able to carry the team every now and again. But theres a big difference between every now and again and every damn game and thats where we are now.

Lets spread the excuses around. You just deflected some criticism from McGahee, isnt he part of the problem?

[Mr. Cynical]

So all we need is for Oakland to start winning some games so we can get Quinn?

To be honest, part of me feels like we're already on the clock. I predicted 5-11, but if JP isn't the guy, there's no point to even get 5 wins. I'd rather go 2-14 and get whomever we want in the draft.

Still, there's one other problem even if we get the #1 pick - Dick will still be the HC.

[Mr. Cynical]

All the "(insert team name) is better than Buffalo hence the QB has it easier" arguments go out the window with Leinart. The Cards suck, and altho he has made mistakes, he looks twice as poised as JP and acts like he should be there, even tho this is is rookie year.

Play JP the rest of the year - we have no choice - but the excuses are growing thinner by the day.

[Mudflap1]

All the "(insert team name) is better than Buffalo hence the QB has it easier" arguments go out the window with Leinart. The Cards suck, and altho he has made mistakes, he looks twice as poised as JP and acts like he should be there, even tho this is is rookie year.

Play JP the rest of the year - we have no choice - but the excuses are growing thinner by the day.

Terrific post!

Jon

[Mudflap1]

Oakland, Detroit, Washington he would start for sure..

Tampa possibly, but Gradkowksi is going good, so I doubt that now...

Umm.. I think that's it.. damn, thats actually pretty sad. Unless Im missing teams, that means we have one of the five ****tiest starting QB's in the league..

Oakland yes. Washington? I don't think so. Joe Gibbs starting Losman on a team where he could start a veteran? I'm not sure Losman could beat out Jason Campbell. Do you really think Joe Gibbs would start Losman on a team with all of those high-priced veterans? With Gregg Williams around?

Detroit? What about last week's game? Kitna clearly outplayed Losman. I don't think Martz would go with J.P. over Kitna at all, and McCown is probably a tossup.

Five crappiest starting quarterbacks is a compliment.

Jon

[Mudflap1]

Repost question: What other teams in the NFL could J.P. Losman start for? Even Andrew Walter is looking better at this point...

Jon

[X-Era]

I actually rooted for drafting Leinhart if the Bills believed that JP wasnt the answer. Go ahead check the posts, its all there.

The Bills front office chose NOT to draft Leinhart. Its now a moot point.

If Leinhart was on this team, IMO JP would NOT be.

But, I dont want to be a clown who wont answer a direct question.

I would probably start Leinhart. His last games shows he has a hot hand. Now, the question is will it continue? I honestly believe it wont. I think he will fall flat on his face for a few games and it will only point out that young QB's play like young QB's unless they have a SB supporting cast. Im not sure that the Cards do, and I KNOW that we dont.

Now I will answer the question you should have asked. Is JP our answer?

My answer is the jury is out. I dont honestly know how much of the teams losses are due to him or are due to the team not being good enough. Furthermore, I think if we improve our overall talent level at a few key spots, JP will flourish and will in fact become all we need. Are there other QB's who could do it? sure, probably. Leinhart? who the hell knows. We are talking about the guy after 2 games.

The better question is, will the Bills get any other guy likely to take us to the promise land? My honest answer is no until the JP era is over. And even then, they have a poor track record of getting a guy with a good chance.

For some reason, this makes me feel good.

What we have is nothing unusual, some just dont want to see it.