When does Losman start to deserve criticism?

[Bling]

Those that support him now, when is a good time to start bashing him if he continues to play like he has recently? Next game? 3 games? 5 games? 1 season? 3 seasons?


Please post, and no flamming.

[Philagape]

He's deserved plenty of criticism so far. What he doesn't deserve is being called a bust.

[TacklingDummy]

When he is no longer a Bill. I have to show my support for current Bills. When the Dolphins sign JP this off-season then I will be laughing my ass off.

[The_Philster]

He's deserved plenty of criticism so far. What he doesn't deserve is being called a bust.
agreed...and he's received plenty of criticism from those of us who are level-headed and don't suffer from a pathological hatred of the guy

[X-Era]

Those that support him now, when is a good time to start bashing him if he continues to play like he has recently? Next game? 3 games? 5 games? 1 season? 3 seasons?


Please post, and no flamming.

I guess my response is that JP deserves to be criticized, but that he doesnt deserve to be treated as if he has no chance to get better. He does, and IMO will.

But, there absolutely IS a asterix next to his results and that asterix means hes young. Like it, hate it, whatever, young QB's make inexperienced mistakes.

I feel its ridiculous or better yet illogical to treat him as a seasoned vet, hes neither seasoned or a vet.

[Mahdi]

Ill critisize him when I feel that everyone else is doing their job at least decently. As in O-line is pass blocking and run blocking well enough to set up the pass. But as long as he has to consantly deal with pressure in his face, then he as a QB cant be evaluated properly.

[Michael82]

Ill critisize him when I feel that everyone else is doing their job at least decently. As in O-line is pass blocking and run blocking well enough to set up the pass. But as long as he has to consantly deal with pressure in his face, then he as a QB cant be evaluated properly.
Finally, someone understands it! :bf1:

[goodkarma]

I was down on this team before the season began, but actually, I think JP has done ok. The offensive line and defensive line is another story....

[GFLuNEEDit]

Ill critisize him when I feel that everyone else is doing their job at least decently. As in O-line is pass blocking and run blocking well enough to set up the pass. But as long as he has to consantly deal with pressure in his face, then he as a QB cant be evaluated properly.

All QBs get pressured.
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[GFLuNEEDit]

agreed...and he's received plenty of criticism from those of us who are level-headed and don't suffer from a pathological hatred of the guy
I see the complete opposite<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[The_Philster]

I see the complete opposite<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
apparently you only see what you want to see then :idunno:

[Philagape]

All QBs get pressured.
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And most have had bad games this season.

[Devin]

as soon as these dime a dozen threads stop.

[HHURRICANE]

agreed...and he's received plenty of criticism from those of us who are level-headed and don't suffer from a pathological hatred of the guy

Yep. That's called being objective.

[OpIv37]

like any other player, Losman deserves criticism any time he plays poorly. He was pathetic against Chicago and was pretty damn bad for the first half of the Lions game.

what he doesn't deserve is people calling for his head, at least not until the end of the season. I said this the whole off-season and I'll say it again now- this year is Losman's chance. If he doesn't get significantly better over the course of the season, it's time to ditch him and cut our losses. It's a scary thought cuz it means spending another 2-3 seasons grooming some other QB, but if Losman's not the guy, we're just gonna have to deal with that fact. In the meantime, we should just watch him and see if he's learning from his mistakes.

One caveat is the OL. They really make it difficult to see if Losman's improving or not. Of course, the coaches are screwing it up too by trying to put a leash on Losman. They need to let him run more if the pass isn't there. I think part of the reason Losman's holding the ball too long is because the coaches have instructed him not to run- when his instincts are telling him to take off, he's fighting them to stay in the pocket and look for a receiver that isn't there.

[TacklingDummy]

I

But, there absolutely IS a asterix next to his results and that asterix means hes young.



OMG, a Roger Maris comparison. lol

[G. Host]

Those that support him now, when is a good time to start bashing him if he continues to play like he has recently? Next game? 3 games? 5 games? 1 season? 3 seasons?


Please post, and no flamming.

Losman deserves criticism when you become a fan of him.

Not only time but one of them.

[DynaPaul]

The last 4 games of the season.

[Mahdi]

All QBs get pressured.
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As an experiment I would love to see Tom Brady or Peyton Manning play behind our O-line, that would be interesting.

[TigerJ]

I've criticized him. I continue to be a supporter. I've also criticized the offensive and defensive line and the secondary this year. Before the season's over, I probably will have criticized our receivers, tight ends, running backs, linebackers, and secondary.

[Devin]

As an experiment I would love to see Tom Brady or Peyton Manning play behind our O-line, that would be interesting.

You and I both.

[X-Era]

You and I both.

Id love BOTH to play for us.

That would permanently shut up the clown Marcia Brady lovers IMO.

Peyton would get it done and Brady would look like the teen model he is.

[Mahdi]

Id love BOTH to play for us.

That would permanently shut up the clown Marcia Brady lovers IMO.

Peyton would get it done and Brady would look like the teen model he is.
Im not so sure Peyton would get it done, he makes his plays because he has time to throw, dont get me wrong the guy is the best QB in the league, but he needs protection like anyone else, San Diego and Pittsburgh proved that.

[kernowboy]

JP starts to get criticism when

1) We give him an OL. Despite some people trying to defend it, it is the worst in the league at present.
2) a big no2 receiver and a TE who can catch. At the moment all our WRs with the exception of Aitken are pretty small. I think once the initial target is covered it is tough to find someone else. Plus some QBs are made to look good because they have big targets who can re-adjust to slightly poor throws. If you have an extra 6inches in height at 6ft4 or 5 you stand out on the field and make the QB look better.

I am not so pessimistic on the OL. I think if we only draft one of the top LTs coming out it would make a world of difference as I think Butler can be our RT and Peters could make a ProBowl guard. We could even trade down in R1 and get someone like Doug Free at 28 or 29. Heck, he might even slip to R2 such is the depth at this position in the draft.

FA is poor this year except at TE. Lets sign Daniel Graham who is a significant upgrade. I also think we can sign Ernest Wilford from the Jags. He'd come here to be a starter, as he's behind Williams and Jones, and I think they will draft a speedster as well as all of their current WRs are the same. At 6ft4, and 223lbs he will compliment Evans and give the offense some diveristy. The opposition will have to stick their biggest CB on him even if he's their best, hopefully releasing Evans.

If JP can't do the business then, well in 2008 we can still sign one of the following:

Brian Brohn (if he doesn't come out)
JaMarcus Russell
Erik Ainge
Kyle Wright
Chad Henne
Anthony Morelli

and maybe Ben Olson, Rudy Carpenter and Drew Weatherford if they come out early.

The QB cupboard is stocked with riches. When you go onto a car lot, how many buy the first vehicle they set eyes on?

[ddaryl]

Those that support him now, when is a good time to start bashing him if he continues to play like he has recently? Next game? 3 games? 5 games? 1 season? 3 seasons?


Please post, and no flamming.

In a couple of years. This team around him is not going to get us anywhere this year. If by the end of the 2007 season our team outside of the QB position has clearly gotten considerably better and JP has not then we show him the door.

However the FACT is this team is going no where this year and that has nothing to do with the QB position. The team has many missing pieces, and if we are going to have to reuild this team over the next couple of years it makes sense to just get JP plenty of experience.

[jmb1099]

Those that support him now, when is a good time to start bashing him if he continues to play like he has recently? Next game? 3 games? 5 games? 1 season? 3 seasons?


Please post, and no flamming.
Bling its a good question. He deserves criticism for poor play now. For example he needs to learn how to throw a short pass, but objectivity, even a little bit, would help paint a more balanced picture. He played well against Miami and Minnesota, he had a big game against the jets but made far too many critical mistakes, and he played a very poor half of football in Detroit followed by a very solid half. His game against NE was going well but also had some mistakes. So he needs to improve, no question, but he is far from terrible. He was terrible in Chicago, but that is the only game this year where he has failed to keep Buffalo in the game. Everyone here said all off season we will need to be patient and let him figure things out, but now that we are at that point...well you get the idea. We all knew we were at least a year or two away, but some folks aren't happy unless they're *****ing about something.
By the way, good thread, great question.

[ICE74129]

agreed...and he's received plenty of criticism from those of us who are level-headed and don't suffer from a pathological hatred of the guyExactly. But those of us with level heads take ALL things into consideration. Likethe FACT our OL sucks.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Those that support him now, when is a good time to start bashing him if he continues to play like he has recently? Next game? 3 games? 5 games? 1 season? 3 seasons?


Please post, and no flamming.
Immediatly.

He STUNK in Chicago

He was better in Detroit but still not good enough.

[Typ0]

Exactly. But those of us with level heads take ALL things into consideration. Likethe FACT our OL sucks.

another genuis who doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion.

[ICE74129]

another genuis who doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion.The OL sucks, its fact. Anyone watching Bills games know it

[Bill Cody]

In Miami when Culpepper was playing and leading the league in sacks their board was filled with crying about OL. Now Joey Harrington is playing and he's not getting sacked so the cries have stopped. Our OL isn't that good but a lot of it is JP has zero pocket presence.

[justasportsfan]

From day one. It's like grading him game by game and final grade is and the end of the year. Not after 6 games. Nobody gets their final grade in the 1st qtr. of the semester.

[Typ0]

The OL sucks, its fact. Anyone watching Bills games know it

I'm not so sure I'm ready to throw the entire OLine under the bus like that. First of all, I think as a unit it's a very difficult position. They have to be in synch probably more than any unit on the field. Often, the OLine needs time to digest the schemes and being in the right place. They need time to work together to play off each others strengths and weaknesses. I think Gandy is not handling his position quite often and he needs help and he's not getting that help. To just say the OLine sucks is a very wide brush...it's a similar wide brush that says JP sucks. You seem to want to say everyone else sucks and JP is some kind of superhero pro-bowl mvp. What we have is a lot of contributing weaknesses that result in our not playing well. And like it or not JP is not playing well just like the OLine as a unit. Like it or not JP is not a rookie he's a third year player who should have a cooler more poised head on his shoulders. If he was those things he's realize the OLine needs some help and do things to help them like getting rid of the ball quicker and reading the defenses better.

[jmb1099]

I'm not so sure I'm ready to throw the entire OLine under the bus like that. First of all, I think as a unit it's a very difficult position. They have to be in synch probably more than any unit on the field. Often, the OLine needs time to digest the schemes and being in the right place. They need time to work together to play off each others strengths and weaknesses. I think Gandy is not handling his position quite often and he needs help and he's not getting that help. To just say the OLine sucks is a very wide brush...it's a similar wide brush that says JP sucks. You seem to want to say everyone else sucks and JP is some kind of superhero pro-bowl mvp. What we have is a lot of contributing weaknesses that result in our not playing well. And like it or not JP is not playing well just like the OLine as a unit. Like it or not JP is not a rookie he's a third year player who should have a cooler more poised head on his shoulders. If he was those things he's realize the OLine needs some help and do things to help them like getting rid of the ball quicker and reading the defenses better.
Obviously Losman could play better, but he hasn't played as poorly as some of you guys are insinuating, that is reality.

[YardRat]

JP became fair game for critcism as soon as the ink dried on his rookie contract. It's part of being a professional athlete.

[DraftBoy]

Exactly. But those of us with level heads take ALL things into consideration. Likethe FACT our OL sucks.


you are not one of those with a level head...

[Bling]

From day one. It's like grading him game by game and final grade is and the end of the year. Not after 6 games. Nobody gets their final grade in the 1st qtr. of the semester.

2 more bad games, and he's at a D- for the 1st semester. :D

[The_Philster]

2 more bad games, and he's at a D- for the 1st semester. :D
Most teachers average grades out...not take the worst grade

[YardRat]

Actually a lot throw out the best score and the worst score, and average the rest.

But that's beside the point :D

[The_Philster]

Actually a lot throw out the best score and the worst score, and average the rest.

But that's beside the point :D
well then a D- wouldn't have a chance at being possibility ;)

[kernowboy]

Yes, I think if we look at where the sacks have come from they are almost all from Gandy.

Fowler has done better than expected
Villarial has slipped but is not a disaster though will be replaced
Peters has not been stellar which is a concern
Reyes has been average and I wonder if this has been because of Gandy

Butler deserves a chance at RT and Peters can move inside to accommodate this maybe solving the Reyes issue.
Preston deserves some game time with the No1 unit to see if he can be a replacement for Villarial or if we move Peters or Reyes here.

Gandy has been a turnstyle. He has moved to OT as you get paid more and obviously wants to stay but he doesn't have the ability, both physical or mental to lock down the position. And a $2.5million his play has been an utter disgrace.

I do not want to see someone elses cast off there. I do not want us to sign a RT who we think can play there (Starks) I do not want to see a guard signed and moved there (steinbach) I do not want to see a LT from an equally worse line who actually would prefers to play guard signed there (Davis)

I want a pure bred LT drafted there

[GFLuNEEDit]

JP became fair game for critcism as soon as the ink dried on his rookie contract. It's part of being a professional athlete.


exactly
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[RedEyE]

He deserves to be criticized when he performs poorly. Just like any player in professional sports.

This might be a bad team , but individuals can (and have) out performed their peers in bad situations.

Losman has regressed since the reigns have been released. He's making good decisions, but he's also making bad ones as well. He's made some costly rookie mistakes repeatedly that he should have already have learned from previous games.

Cutting the kid some slack because of his youth and inexperience is acceptable, but in turn, there is nothing wrong with analyzing his failures.

Has he gotten better? Sure, in some ways. But in some areas we need to see some vast improvements.

The fact that continually holds onto the football too long is cause for some real concern and well deserved criticism. It tells me that he's making his reads entirely too slowly and he's thinking about his decision rather then just playing the game. Great football players use their heads, that's true, but when they're out on the field the game seems to slow down for them. It's almost a meditative state accompanied with a well controlled adrenaline high. JP needs to find that state of mind on thefield and react rather then jostle through the mental notes he has jamming up his brain. This might come with time, but it has yet to be seen. He's still a student of the game and to question whether he has the gumption to graduate to that next level is perfectly OK. Fans can do that.

[Novacane]

Ill critisize him when I feel that everyone else is doing their job at least decently. As in O-line is pass blocking and run blocking well enough to set up the pass. But as long as he has to consantly deal with pressure in his face, then he as a QB cant be evaluated properly.


Good QB's make plays in the face of pressure. plus He's made plenty of mistakes that can't be blamed on the O-line.

[jamze132]

You can start criticizing Losman when he can't perform behind a respectable O-line.

[PECKERWOOD]

I'm not so sure I'm ready to throw the entire OLine under the bus like that. First of all, I think as a unit it's a very difficult position. They have to be in synch probably more than any unit on the field. Often, the OLine needs time to digest the schemes and being in the right place. They need time to work together to play off each others strengths and weaknesses. I think Gandy is not handling his position quite often and he needs help and he's not getting that help. To just say the OLine sucks is a very wide brush...it's a similar wide brush that says JP sucks. You seem to want to say everyone else sucks and JP is some kind of superhero pro-bowl mvp. What we have is a lot of contributing weaknesses that result in our not playing well. And like it or not JP is not playing well just like the OLine as a unit. Like it or not JP is not a rookie he's a third year player who should have a cooler more poised head on his shoulders. If he was those things he's realize the OLine needs some help and do things to help them like getting rid of the ball quicker and reading the defenses better.

The general consensus around here, is that our OL sucks.. Alot of people are willing to keep Fowler, Reyes and Peters for another season. But the struggles at LT and RG are obvious to me, by their blatant errors in pass block and not to mention our run blocking scheme.
http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=111491
How many times have you seen Willis get clobbered in the backfield? How many times have you seen JP get blindsided? Thats when I have seen most of his fumbles, is when he gets blindsided by a defender Gandy was suppose to be blocking. So unless you think JP and both Willis are the problem, you may want to rethink your theory about our OL.

[ScottLawrence]

Ill critisize him when I feel that everyone else is doing their job at least decently. As in O-line is pass blocking and run blocking well enough to set up the pass. But as long as he has to consantly deal with pressure in his face, then he as a QB cant be evaluated properly.

He doesn't constantly have to deal with pressure in his face, you people make it seem that every time he drops back to pass theres some there to take him down....Thats simply not true.

Like I've said many times before, our O-Line isn't good or great, but it isn't bad.

[kernowboy]

Oh come on, Gandy is a turnstyle and Reyes is beginning to play down to his level.

Its not a case he gets flattened on every play, its that he half expects to

[PECKERWOOD]

He doesn't constantly have to deal with pressure in his face, you people make it seem that every time he drops back to pass theres some there to take him down....Thats simply not true.

Like I've said many times before, our O-Line isn't good or great, but it isn't bad.
I'm not sure how you would think our OL is average.. Our OL is full of cast-offs no other teams wanted, and with good cause. Gandy and Villarial are as good as gone. Peters hasnt been good by no means, but he is young and learning. Fowler has been average. Reyes has been average. That just doesnt add up to a decent line.

[X-Era]

He doesn't constantly have to deal with pressure in his face, you people make it seem that every time he drops back to pass theres some there to take him down....Thats simply not true.

Like I've said many times before, our O-Line isn't good or great, but it isn't bad.

and communism is a wonderful plan, and water flows up hill, and pigs fly, and hell has blizzards

[Meathead]

you are not one of those with a level head...
this actual ice photo seems to prove otherwise
http://www.armchairempire.com/images/action-figures/son-of-frankenstein.jpg

[DraftBoy]

this actual ice photo seems to prove otherwise
http://www.armchairempire.com/images/action-figures/son-of-frankenstein.jpg

Touche..:rofl:

[Meathead]

depends on what you mean by criticism

there is almost nothing jp can do the rest of the season to make me call for his removal. the smart move by far is to just let him play and if necessary open the competition again next year. if there ever was a perfect time to let a young qb play through growing pain now would be that time

so when he makes bonehead mistakes its fair to point it out or even complain about it if you want to. its your money

but its also fair not to harp on every mistake and instead focus on the progress

the pattern so far has been an erratically steady improvement mixing major gaffs with efficient game management. pretty standard at this point in his development. we dont know which direction he will go from here but it looks promising and you gotta let that experiment play out fully this time to find out - or at least get closer to finding out

my bet would be that he continues this pattern the rest of the season and ends up around 18 tds 13 ints and 60% compl

on a team with the line still below par that would be plenty enough for me to allow him to keep his frontrunner status for the job going into next season. and it would be right where i would expect someone in his spot to be on average so its not like im doing him any favors either

the things i see jp do naturally are so good that i think they will be the factors that propel him to an above average starter or better. the things he needs to learn are standard nfl qb stuff but the things he brings are god given

the combination of his ability to elude the rush as well as find the open lane to step into, two very different and very complimentary skills, could give him a big advantage over the defense at some point

we all know about his ability to scramble but if you watch close youll notice he also has that peripheral pocket vision to step into the one open spot around him to get the pass off. thats a tremendous skill in the nfl and cannot be understated. it was one of statue dans secret weapons to avoiding sacks

the most important thing for him coming into the season was to improve the completion percentage and at that hes been a rousing success. 61.6% as of right now and thats terrific improvement over his nine game rate of 49.6% from last year. im very encouraged by that right now

nobody needs to be reminded that breathtaking athleticism doesnt guarantee qb stardom but if losman can continue to improve at this pace he could turn into the major weapon we all want by next year

he aint comin out so let it be

so rules judge meathead

http://www.uwp.edu/departments/academic.affairs/employee.orientation/images/gavel.JPG