If you want a QB change, you're insane

[OpIv37]

Look, I'm not happy with JP's performance either. But let's face the facts here.

First, we are NOT making the playoffs- deal with it. Even if we win out, we won't win the division unless NE finishes 6-4 or worse. That ain't happening.

Second, benching JP now means one of two things will happen:
a) we'll have given up on a guy drafted to be our franchise QB after 15 starts- we'll be getting a new QB in the off season and expect 2-3 more years of struggles while the new QB is groomed.
b) JP will still be on our roster next year, and we'll be going into next season 3 years into the Great JP Experiment without knowing any more about him than we did at the start of this season or the start of last season. That's absolutely pathetic management.

We're just going to have to live with the fact that JP is our best option at the moment.

[patmoran2006]

Call me insane then..

I want to see what Nall can do.. He cant put us in position to lose games anymore than Losman has.

[patmoran2006]

Look, I'm not happy with JP's performance either. But let's face the facts here.

First, we are NOT making the playoffs- deal with it. Even if we win out, we won't win the division unless NE finishes 6-4 or worse. That ain't happening.

Second, benching JP now means one of two things will happen:
a) we'll have given up on a guy drafted to be our franchise QB after 15 starts- we'll be getting a new QB in the off season and expect 2-3 more years of struggles while the new QB is groomed.
b) JP will still be on our roster next year, and we'll be going into next season 3 years into the Great JP Experiment without knowing any more about him than we did at the start of this season or the start of last season. That's absolutely pathetic management.

We're just going to have to live with the fact that JP is our best option at the moment.
No.. ABsolutely "pathetic managemant" is letting a quarterback continue to start because he's younger, and was a higher draft pick. He's regressing, he has the body language of a complete loser on the field, and when it comes to him I'd rather cut my losses now, see what Nall has (probably not much) and if need be, start to center my team next year around a REAL quarterback.

[OpIv37]

Call me insane then..

I want to see what Nall can do.. He cant put us in position to lose games anymore than Losman has.

it's not about winning or losing games anymore- that ship has sailed. It's about not ****ing over the future of this franchise. Craig Nall is not the answer. JP may be the answer, although that's becoming less and less likely. This season is hosed- the least we can get out of iit is definitively resolving the JP issue, unlike the last two seasons where we failed to do that.

[OpIv37]

No.. ABsolutely "pathetic managemant" is letting a quarterback continue to start because he's younger, and was a higher draft pick. He's regressing, he has the body language of a complete loser on the field, and when it comes to him I'd rather cut my losses now, see what Nall has (probably not much) and if need be, start to center my team next year around a REAL quarterback.

so you're willing to completely give up on JP after 15 starts? I'll admit it doesn't look good for him right now, but QB is the hardest position on the field. The Bills gave up a lot to get him. They owe it to themselves and their fans to at least give him a legit shot before throwing in the towel.

[patmoran2006]

so you're willing to completely give up on JP after 15 starts? I'll admit it doesn't look good for him right now, but QB is the hardest position on the field. The Bills gave up a lot to get him. They owe it to themselves and their fans to at least give him a legit shot before throwing in the towel.
They owe it to their fans to put a QB out there who's not going to be directly responsible for 8 of the 11 turnovers in the last three games.

Im FAR from sold on Nall, but at least I can use the "you never know if you dont try" excuse with him. Losman has showed me that's he's complete garbage and his "stats" have VERY little to do with my conclusion. Instead of going on and on about it, I"ll just use the word "intangibles"

The Bills did give up a lot to get them. That's not Levy or Jauron's problem. We also paid Nall a $1.3 million signing bonus to sign him, and if the Bills were better or even showed a SIGN on offense of being better I'd say who cares. But we CONTINUE to go backwards, and at this point I am convinced JP is NOT the future of this team (unless you want the 4-6 win seasons to continue) and now I want to be sure that Nall isnt the future of this team either.. So that come next Winter/Spring I know what the top priority needs to be.

yes, I know our OL blows, but NOTHING is more important than QB and we have one right now that is just plain old lost.

Lastly, 15 starts IS enough to show me he doesnt have "it", especially when he is going directly backwards.

[OpIv37]

I think giving up on Losman now hoses next season and quite possibly the next 2-3 seasons as well. I'd much rather see this organization make a legitimate, full season effort to make Losman into the franchise QB than to roll the dice on Craig Nall.

[ICE74129]

so you're willing to completely give up on JP after 15 starts? I'll admit it doesn't look good for him right now, but QB is the hardest position on the field. The Bills gave up a lot to get him. They owe it to themselves and their fans to at least give him a legit shot before throwing in the towel.

Ok here is the deal...TOM DONAHOE gave up a ton to get him. He also drafted Mike Williams 4th overall didn't he?

Lets stop the BS OP, he has had a legit shot and is now regressing, not getting better or even maintaining.

[OpIv37]

Ok here is the deal...TOM DONAHOE gave up a ton to get him. He also drafted Mike Williams 4th overall didn't he?

Lets stop the BS OP, he has had a legit shot and is now regressing, not getting better or even maintaining.

I fully admit that he looks like ****, but do you really think benching him for Craig ****ing Nall is the answer?

Benching Losman now either means we're already giving up on him and need to start looking for another QB OR we go into next year with the same questions about him that we've had the last two years. Do either of those sound like good options to you?

[ICE74129]

I fully admit that he looks like ****, but do you really think benching him for Craig ****ing Nall is the answer?

Benching Losman now either means we're already giving up on him and need to start looking for another QB OR we go into next year with the same questions about him that we've had the last two years. Do either of those sound like good options to you?

the 'answer' isn't even on this roster. Thats what fans need to understand.

[OpIv37]

the 'answer' isn't even on this roster. Thats what fans need to understand.

you're probably right, but why wouldn't we stick with Losman and just hope for the best (as unlikely as it seems at this point)?

[ICE74129]

you're probably right, but why wouldn't we stick with Losman and just hope for the best (as unlikely as it seems at this point)?

Because the obvious is there in front of us. They benched Mcgee realising after 3 weeks of futility he wasn't cutting it. Time to do the same with JP.

[OpIv37]

Because the obvious is there in front of us. They benched Mcgee realising after 3 weeks of futility he wasn't cutting it. Time to do the same with JP.

cornerback and QB are not the same thing.

[Ron Burgundy]

you're probably right, but why wouldn't we stick with Losman and just hope for the best (as unlikely as it seems at this point)?

Because he's terrible.

Nall might be slightly less than terrible, but even if he's worse...who cares? Like you said, we're not making the playoffs or anything.

Either way, I'll say it...I'm ready to give up on Losman, right now. He's gone next year and we then have to find our QB of the future. We're a year or two away even without the QB, given the struggles in the trenches and our linebackers getting old, and we're never going to win with Losman. So, might as well see what Nall's got and work on buying Troy Smith's mom a house or something.

[patmoran2006]

Because he's terrible.

Nall might be slightly less than terrible, but even if he's worse...who cares? Like you said, we're not making the playoffs or anything.

Either way, I'll say it...I'm ready to give up on Losman, right now. He's gone next year and we then have to find our QB of the future. We're a year or two away even without the QB, given the struggles in the trenches and our linebackers getting old, and we're never going to win with Losman. So, might as well see what Nall's got and work on buying Troy Smith's mom a house or something.
Good post, and if Ron Burgundy says it, it MUST be true.. And I'm really sorry Baxter got punted in the movie.

[djjimkelly]

JP is the answer problem is most of the guys on our team are JUNK!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ICE74129]

Because he's terrible.

Nall might be slightly less than terrible, but even if he's worse...who cares? Like you said, we're not making the playoffs or anything.

Either way, I'll say it...I'm ready to give up on Losman, right now. He's gone next year and we then have to find our QB of the future. We're a year or two away even without the QB, given the struggles in the trenches and our linebackers getting old, and we're never going to win with Losman. So, might as well see what Nall's got and work on buying Troy Smith's mom a house or something.

Its time to draft OL in the high first and QB in the 2nd. Leak will be there in the 2nd

[Ron Burgundy]

I'm not sold on Chris Leak, but that's a discussion for another thread I think.

I dunno who I like yet, other than Smith.

[patmoran2006]

For the record:
The last pass I remember seeing Nall throw in the preseason was a dart to Andre Davis against Detroit, who took the pass in perfect stride en route to a long touchdown.

Why doesnt he at the least deserve a CHANCE to show what he has. I mean, Mr Senile himself gave Nall a $1.3 million signing bonus to compete, and since we're going nowhere fast, why not see if he has what it takes to be a leader.

And if after two games he sucks it up (as most think he will) then we can always go back to the erratic and predictable (at the same time if thats possible) brand of football that is JP Losman.

[ICE74129]

I'm not sold on Chris Leak, but that's a discussion for another thread I think.

I dunno who I like yet, other than Smith.

smith is a one hit wonder that is the 'flavor of the year'. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the QB that is doing it this year. Not a good measuring stick.

[kernowboy]

Its time to draft OL in the high first and QB in the 2nd. Leak will be there in the 2nd

Leak at 6ft and 205lbs, no higher than the third. I am concerned that a number of pundits think he is a product of the system especially as Meyer designed the system around him

Stanton at 6ft3 and 225lbs could drop to the second. If we get Long or Free at LT then that will do me. I think Thomas will go to the first team needing an LT including the Texans and the Bucs so we could easily move around in the 1st, still get starting quality plus a couple more picks

[Ron Burgundy]

Good post, and if Ron Burgundy says it, it MUST be true.. And I'm really sorry Baxter got punted in the movie.

Is that you? Bark twice if you're in Milwaukee.

[ICE74129]

Leak at 6ft and 205lbs, no higher than the third. I am concerned that a number of pundits think he is a product of the system especially as Meyer designed the system around him

Stanton at 6ft3 and 225lbs could drop to the second. If we get Long or Free at LT then that will do me. I think Thomas will go to the first team needing an LT including the Texans and the Bucs so we could easily move around in the 1st, still get starting quality plus a couple more picks

I just want a STUD LT with our first pick. After that QB is open. There are other QB's out there with good leadership and decision making abilities.

[Ron Burgundy]

smith is a one hit wonder that is the 'flavor of the year'. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the QB that is doing it this year. Not a good measuring stick.

That's simply not the case, and it leads me to believe you don't follow college football.

When he took over for Zwick at OSU, he was athletic, but raw. In the space of a year or so, he's gone from an option-style guy with a loose cannon to a poised team leader who stays home and looks to pass first, but can still beat you with his legs. He makes his reads (his favorite target isn't his #1 wideout Ginn, but Gonzales), and looks the safety off well. He reminds me of a slightly-smaller Donovan McNabb, but they have a lot of the same qualities...athletic pocket passers with great leadership skills.

If you wanna point out a game or a moment where he looked particularly bad or like a "one-hit wonder," I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

[mybills]

Wait...
If Nall was any better, than he would've beaten JP in the QB competition. They didn't even think he was good enough to be 2nd. :dizzy:

How 'bout...JP plays out the year, AND we get a new QB in the draft?

[Ron Burgundy]

Wait...
If Nall was any better, than he would've beaten JP in the QB competition. They didn't even think he was good enough to be 2nd. :dizzy:

How 'bout...JP plays out the year, AND we get a new QB in the draft?

Because it's pointless to play the kid. He's awful.

I don't know if Nall is that bad or not, but I'm willing to find out.

[kernowboy]

That's simply not the case, and it leads me to believe you don't follow college football.

When he took over for Zwick at OSU, he was athletic, but raw. In the space of a year or so, he's gone from an option-style guy with a loose cannon to a poised team leader who stays home and looks to pass first, but can still beat you with his legs. He makes his reads (his favorite target isn't his #1 wideout Ginn, but Gonzales), and looks the safety off well. He reminds me of a slightly-smaller Donovan McNabb, but they have a lot of the same qualities...athletic pocket passers with great leadership skills.

If you wanna point out a game or a moment where he looked particularly bad or like a "one-hit wonder," I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

Personally I want to go LT left then QB. I think it more likely a good QB will fall rather a good LT. And if Baker and Long don't come out, the depth at pure LT gets a little marginal.

Thomas

but then Levi Brown isn't a pure LT and may need to go RT, Blaylock isn't so you are looking at

Free, and then a drop off. In this scenario, Free goes before our 2nd rounder and we end up with a great QB and risk marginal protection on his blindside.

I think Stanton would be a great QB espcially if he is covered by Thomas, Baker, Long or Free. www.condraft.com (http://www.condraft.com) makes good looking swapping Long for Brown

[patmoran2006]

Wait...
If Nall was any better, than he would've beaten JP in the QB competition. They didn't even think he was good enough to be 2nd. :dizzy:

How 'bout...JP plays out the year, AND we get a new QB in the draft?
Are you talking about the competition where Nall was injured for a good part of it?

There never was a real competition, and thats fine, because the BIlls made the right call by going with Losman to start the season.. He's the youngest and had the most 'upside"

But the bottom line is he's been a miserable failure, and we need a quarterback on this team with some form of leadership qualities. SO lets see what Nall has, if he sucks, go back to Losman and make getting a leader at QB #1 next year with two upgrades to the OL as #1B.

[Ron Burgundy]

Personally I want to go LT left then QB. I think it more likely a good QB will fall rather a good LT. And if Baker and Long don't come out, the depth at pure LT gets a little marginal.

Thomas

but then Levi Brown isn't a pure LT and may need to go RT, Blaylock isn't so you are looking at

Free, and then a drop off. In this scenario, Free goes before our 2nd rounder and we end up with a great QB and risk marginal protection on his blindside.

I think Stanton would be a great QB espcially if he is covered by Thomas, Baker, Long or Free. www.condraft.com (http://www.condraft.com) makes good looking swapping Long for Brown

I think the tackle class is stronger than the QB class. Drew Stanton is an option but he doesn't excite me. His measurables are good but I want a QB with a great head on his shoulders and I don't know if Stanton has "it."

I'd lke to get a tackle quick but we'll see how it plays out...it's super early yet.

[mybills]

Are you talking about the competition where Nall was injured for a good part of it?

There never was a real competition, and thats fine, because the BIlls made the right call by going with Losman to start the season.. He's the youngest and had the most 'upside"

But the bottom line is he's been a miserable failure, and we need a quarterback on this team with some form of leadership qualities. SO lets see what Nall has, if he sucks, go back to Losman and make getting a leader at QB #1 next year with two upgrades to the OL as #1B.

If he got injured in the competition, he'd prolly get mangled in a real game. Do you want to not even have a 3rd option next year? Are we even gonna keep Holcomb next year, and if they decide to replace JP, then what? We'll waste 3 of our picks on 3 QB's? While it's a possibility to put Nall in now, and if he doesn't pan out put JP back in, I don't think that'll happen. I really think they'll let JP finish the year, then make their decision.

[Ron Burgundy]

If he got injured in the competition, he'd prolly get mangled in a real game. Do you want to not even have a 3rd option next year? Are we even gonna keep Holcomb next year, and if they decide to replace JP, then what? We'll waste 3 of our picks on 3 QB's? While it's a possibility to put Nall in now, and if he doesn't pan out put JP back in, I don't think that'll happen. I really think they'll let JP finish the year, then make their decision.

That's one bizarre slippery-slope you're falling down.

Holcomb's gone. Nall will probably hang around...we'll know if he's a number 2 or number 3 QB after this year, hopefully. You draft a kid and you sign a vet to teach him.

This is not that difficult to understand...at least, I didn't think it was.

[patmoran2006]

He hurt his HAMSTRING in practice.. It happens.. I'd hardly call that mangled.

I think HOlcomb and JP are gone next year and Nall will be backing someone new up..

[mybills]

Do you even read everything...I didn't call that mangled. Read it again. Jeesh.

[OpIv37]

He hurt his HAMSTRING in practice.. It happens.. I'd hardly call that mangled.

I think HOlcomb and JP are gone next year and Nall will be backing someone new up..

a cold chill just went down my spine- this QB situation still has to get worse before it gets better.

[Ron Burgundy]

Do you even read everything...I didn't call that mangled. Read it again. Jeesh.

Don't read it again, actually...'cause it doesn't make any sense.

[mybills]

Don't read it again, actually...'cause it doesn't make any sense.
Look Bogus Trumper, the only thing you need to realize is this is my opinion...
I really think they'll let JP finish the year, then make their decision.

[Ron Burgundy]

Look Bogus Trumper, the only thing you need to realize is this is my opinion...
I really think they'll let JP finish the year, then make their decision.
That part made sense.

Why didn't you just say that instead of casing it in all the rest of that blather?

BTW, I love ol' Bogey, but she ain't me.

[Saratoga Slim]

For the record:
The last pass I remember seeing Nall throw in the preseason was a dart to Andre Davis against Detroit, who took the pass in perfect stride en route to a long touchdown.

Why doesnt he at the least deserve a CHANCE to show what he has. I mean, Mr Senile himself gave Nall a $1.3 million signing bonus to compete, and since we're going nowhere fast, why not see if he has what it takes to be a leader.

And if after two games he sucks it up (as most think he will) then we can always go back to the erratic and predictable (at the same time if thats possible) brand of football that is JP Losman.

I have no problem giving Nall a couple games toward the end of the season if JP is still struggling along. But not yet. We've made this the year of Losman, and I don't want ANY lingering questions going into the offseason. We need to keep JP in there for at minimum another 4-5 games, and if nothing changes, give Nall a brief chance to show what he can do. It may be painful, but there's no excuse for letting this season finish without a firm resolution to JP's future as the franchise guy.

That's my view from out here. But I guess if Jauron and Co. have seen all they need to see of JP already, then what the hell, let Nall play.

[Saratoga Slim]

I should add that if Holcomb starts so much as one game while JP is healthy and able to go, I will immediately lose any patience that I've thus argued the coaching staff deserves. that would be inexcusable.

[Dicknoze69]

You could also say that Carson Palmer was the flavor of the year, and that turned out well.

I'm not saying Smith has Palmer's physical gifts, and I'm not even sure Smith will be a 1st round pick after the combine, but we need a leader on our offense, which is something we don't have right now. The more I think about it, the more I like grabbing a QB like Smith, Brohm or Quinn, and then go with lineman.

[Saratoga Slim]

You could also say that Carson Palmer was the flavor of the year, and that turned out well.

I'm not saying Smith has Palmer's physical gifts, and I'm not even sure Smith will be a 1st round pick after the combine, but we need a leader on our offense, which is something we don't have right now. The more I think about it, the more I like grabbing a QB like Smith, Brohm or Quinn, and then go with lineman.

I hate to start the draft games yet. At this point all I'm going to say is that I want a LT with franchise potential in one of the first two rounds, and a very good Gaurd either in FA or relatively high in the draft as well.

Hard to start scripting the rest of our draft needs yet when we don't know how our re-signings are going to pan out (Clements, etc), or what we can fill through free agency.

[Bill Cody]

smith is a one hit wonder that is the 'flavor of the year'. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the QB that is doing it this year. Not a good measuring stick.

Do you even watch college football? Chris Leak is not going to make it as a pro QB. I've watched Troy Smith play at least a dozen times and the kid has poise, leadership, a strong, accurate arm and mobility. He's the real deal, as is Quinn IMO. OSU would have beaten Texas last year if Smith had played the whole game. And why should anyone take your views on QB's seriously, you think JP is going to be a star.:oops:

[HHURRICANE]

so you're willing to completely give up on JP after 15 starts? I'll admit it doesn't look good for him right now, but QB is the hardest position on the field. The Bills gave up a lot to get him. They owe it to themselves and their fans to at least give him a legit shot before throwing in the towel.

Nobody can accuse OP of being a JP homer so his opinion matters here. And he's right. It's definately not looking good for JP right now. But we need to ride this out. I'd for one would like to know if we have Brad Johnson (serviceable) or Rob Johnson (never).

The idea of having to draft another QB makes me sick when we have so many holes on this team to fill. If we can improve and JP doesn't cost us games, which in fairness he hasn't done yet, than I would like to wait until 2008 and see what's available.

[Meathead]

i heard this guy want to bench jp

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/img/assorted/crazyeddie.jpg

[Patti120]

I think OP is right on here. Time to suck it up and deal folks.

[Michael82]

Look, I'm not happy with JP's performance either. But let's face the facts here.

First, we are NOT making the playoffs- deal with it. Even if we win out, we won't win the division unless NE finishes 6-4 or worse. That ain't happening.

Second, benching JP now means one of two things will happen:
a) we'll have given up on a guy drafted to be our franchise QB after 15 starts- we'll be getting a new QB in the off season and expect 2-3 more years of struggles while the new QB is groomed.
b) JP will still be on our roster next year, and we'll be going into next season 3 years into the Great JP Experiment without knowing any more about him than we did at the start of this season or the start of last season. That's absolutely pathetic management.

We're just going to have to live with the fact that JP is our best option at the moment.
:bf1:

[eee1776]

I have talked to several x- bills players who watch every game. They all say the same thing.. JP does not have what it take to be a starter in this league. Most of them think that the best quarterback on this team is Crag Nall. If the Bills show up against the Packers like thy did agains the Pats..its going to get very ugly at the ralph.

[HHURRICANE]

I have talked to several x- bills players who watch every game. They all say the same thing.. JP does not have what it take to be a starter in this league. Most of them think that the best quarterback on this team is Crag Nall. If the Bills show up against the Packers like thy did agains the Pats..its going to get very ugly at the ralph.

How long have you been friends with Fletcher for?

[Saratoga Slim]

Looks like this thread had been rendered moot by Marv's comments. Good.

[Jan Reimers]

It's funny how so many of us were going to be patient with JP, and were willing to give him this season to see if he would develop into an NFL caliber QB. Now, after 7 starts this year and 15 for his career - less than the equivalent of one full season - many of those same posters are calling for his scalp.

And we're writing him off after he has had 3 or 4 pretty solid performances, and we know there are problems with our O line, running game, and defense.

I basically agree with Op. It may not be insane to be calling for a QB change, but it is at least premature.