Another Take on the O-Line

[scott51]

I have a question about the offensive line. Actually, its my opinion and would like to hear what others have to say. I am not convinced that the problems with the offense are nessassarily totally the offensive line. Obviously, that is a problem but what if JP is a big factor in the lines problems? We have seen JP stand in the pocket too long against the Patriots. That Pat defense is not a push-over and many times JP had plenty of time. That means they were doing their job. My feeling is that the lineman are trying to compensate and give JP extra time.

That is just my opinion and do believe the changes at OL were needed. The main thing obviously being Mike Gandy! Hopefully he will do well at G for us!

[justasportsfan]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

JP agrees with you and so do the majority of the people here. It's both the OL and the qb.

[kernowboy]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

Agreed - what I think we have also tried to do is get by with very limited talent on the OL and its finally come back to haunt us.

While there are busts as well as stars, and we should know that with Mike Williams, this happens in every position, coming down to inflated college performance and figures, level of opposition, character etc.

Since we selected Ruben Brown in 1995, we have picked only one OL player in Rounds 1 and 2 in the last 11 years. In fact we have only picked 3 OL players in the whole of Day1 in the last 11 drafts!!!

We are the only OL in the entire NFL which does not have an original Round 1 or Round 2 starting, either drafted by them or signed in FA

Whilst it is always good to find good role players on Day2 or in OFA, you have to have at least some quality !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the Broncos, long held up as the poster child of getting a line put together whilst dipping into the bargain bucket, have a Round 1 in the starting line.u[

If you go out and buy a cheap pair of sneakers, you have to expect them to fall apart pretty quickly and not be up to scratch.

We've been buying a very cheap OL and its come back to haunt us.

And if we don't correct it in 2007 draft it will continue to do so

[ICE74129]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

JP agrees with you and so do the majority of the people here. It's both the OL and the qb.

Exactly, but to JP's defense, no QB can protect his own blindside.

Every QB MUST have faith in his OL and there is no way in hell JP does right now regardless of what he says.

[HHURRICANE]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

I am not convinced that the problems with the offense are nessassarily totally the offensive line. Obviously, that is a problem but what if JP is a big factor in the lines problems? We have seen JP stand in the pocket too long against the Patriots. That Pat defense is not a push-over and many times JP had plenty of time. That means they were doing their job. My feeling is that the lineman are trying to compensate and give JP extra time.

That is just my opinion and do believe the changes at OL were needed. The main thing obviously being Mike Gandy! Hopefully he will do well at G for us!

Okay, I do believe that the line is slightly better than last year. But alot of JP's fumbles were the result of blown blocks. If I have to watch Gandy in that pose, the one where he looks like "oh **** that was my guy" I'm going to hurl. Villareal blew an assignment and JP did actually have 2 hands on the ball, but the result was a fumble.

There is no doubt that JP might want to consider that his line sucks and make sure he's prepared for that by keeping the ball better protected. It's obvious that if the ref can cause you to cough up the ball than a 275/lb DE can for sure.

THE OL isn't that bad but when they do mistakes it's catastrophic ones at points where we could have scored.


It may also be time to consider that McNally might not be the genius everyone on OBD thinks he is.

[bflojohn]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

Genius status might be "regained" by Jim McNally IF Terrence Pennington can "cut it" as a starter. Think about this, Peters and Pennington within, what, two years? Pretty sound coaching in my book IF it can be pulled off. Aaron Merz also held his own against the Patriots, so maybe the Bills have provided Mr. McNally with some "Tools" to work with! The other slant on this is that there has been a fairly steady turnover at, oh say, OLG. Bennie Anderson, Tutan Reyes, and now Mike Gandy....NO CONTINUITY THERE!! The beauty can obviously be in the eye of the beholder. I'm NOT down on Jim McNally at all, I think his body of work to this point has been fine.

[scott51]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

Agreed - what I think we have also tried to do is get by with very limited talent on the OL and its finally come back to haunt us.

While there are busts as well as stars, and we should know that with Mike Williams, this happens in every position, coming down to inflated college performance and figures, level of opposition, character etc.

Since we selected Ruben Brown in 1995, we have picked only one OL player in Rounds 1 and 2 in the last 11 years. In fact we have only picked 3 OL players in the whole of Day1 in the last 11 drafts!!!

We are the only OL in the entire NFL which does not have an original Round 1 or Round 2 starting, either drafted by them or signed in FA

Whilst it is always good to find good role players on Day2 or in OFA, you have to have at least some quality !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the Broncos, long held up as the poster child of getting a line put together whilst dipping into the bargain bucket, have a Round 1 in the starting line.u[

If you go out and buy a cheap pair of sneakers, you have to expect them to fall apart pretty quickly and not be up to scratch.

We've been buying a very cheap OL and its come back to haunt us.

And if we don't correct it in 2007 draft it will continue to do so

Yup! IMO, we should have traded up in the latest draft so that we could pick up D'Brickshaw Ferguson. I know its in the past and can't be changed but I feel that would have been a HUGE step in the right direction! Hopefully we will focus on that for 2007!

[scott51]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

Top Offensive Line Free Agents in 2007

Max Starks RFA Pittsburgh Steelers
Starks is a starting tackle for a Super Bowl champion. That’s enough in itself to get some teams a little excited about the prospects of acquiring him. The fact that Starks is young, talented, and massive in stature—listed at 6’8”, 337 lbs.—just adds to the excitement pile. Another lineman that shouldn’t be going anywhere as the Steelers will not let Starks go without a fight. The best bet is that Starks will decide he wants to stay in Pittsburgh and sign an extension. If he hits the market, there will be a team or two willing to pay a big amount to entice the tackle to relocate. Leonard Davis UFA Arizona Cardinals
Davis is a massive tackle that the Cardinals can’t afford to lose to free agency. The Arizona offensive line is already suspect, and losing Davis would be a huge step in the wrong direction, but the team may have to let him go and find a replacement if they aren’t prepared to offer decent money. Davis has shown the ability to simply be a wall of protection for his quarterback and while teams might not line up for the chance to sign him, anyone looking for a tackle will have him high on the list. The Cardinals are more than likely going to push to re-sign him before he hits the market.
Mike Gandy, UFA, Buffalo Bills
A relatively young starting left tackle, Gandy had been blocking for Willis McGahee over the past two seasons, and this season could go a long way in making Gandy an appealing free agent. He has talent, but isn’t considered among the league’s best linemen. However, a decent starting left tackle doesn’t just drop from the sky, so expect him to garner interest from a handful of teams, if Buffalo doesn’t re-sign him before the market opens.
Other Free Agent Offensive Linemen
Jordan Black, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs
Dwayne Carswell, UFA, Denver Broncos
Derrick Dockery, UFA, Washington Redskins
Nat Dorsey, RFA, Cleveland Browns
Chris Gray, UFA, Seattle Seahawks
Norm Katnik, RFA, New York Jets
Ryan Lilja, RFA, Indianapolis Colts
Sean Locklear, RFA, Seattle Seahawks
Vincent Manuwai, UFA, Jacksonville Jaguars
Roman Oben, UFA, San Diego Chargers
Brian Rimpf, RFA, Baltimore Ravens
Eric Steinbach, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Todd Steussie, UFA, St. Louis Rams
Floyd Womack, UFA, Seattle Seahawks




Here is a list of possibles, who would you like?

[ICE74129]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

Okay, I do believe that the line is slightly better than last year. But alot of JP's fumbles were the result of blown blocks. If I have to watch Gandy in that pose, the one where he looks like "oh **** that was my guy" I'm going to hurl. Villareal blew an assignment and JP did actually have 2 hands on the ball, but the result was a fumble.

There is no doubt that JP might want to consider that his line sucks and make sure he's prepared for that by keeping the ball better protected. It's obvious that if the ref can cause you to cough up the ball than a 275/lb DE can for sure.

THE OL isn't that bad but when they do mistakes it's catastrophic ones at points where we could have scored.


It may also be time to consider that McNally might not be the genius everyone on OBD thinks he is.

I have tried to defend McNally, I really have, but this cat just isnt' cutting it. Time to bring in someone to teach cut blocking and zone blocking like Denver and atlanta does and watch willis and Co rush for 2000 yards combined. You want JP to get better? Running the ball well enough to put up those numbers between all of your backs will make ANY QB better in a damn hurry

[Saratoga Slim]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

Agreed - what I think we have also tried to do is get by with very limited talent on the OL and its finally come back to haunt us.

While there are busts as well as stars, and we should know that with Mike Williams, this happens in every position, coming down to inflated college performance and figures, level of opposition, character etc.

Since we selected Ruben Brown in 1995, we have picked only one OL player in Rounds 1 and 2 in the last 11 years. In fact we have only picked 3 OL players in the whole of Day1 in the last 11 drafts!!!

We are the only OL in the entire NFL which does not have an original Round 1 or Round 2 starting, either drafted by them or signed in FA

Whilst it is always good to find good role players on Day2 or in OFA, you have to have at least some quality !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the Broncos, long held up as the poster child of getting a line put together whilst dipping into the bargain bucket, have a Round 1 in the starting line.u[

If you go out and buy a cheap pair of sneakers, you have to expect them to fall apart pretty quickly and not be up to scratch.

We've been buying a very cheap OL and its come back to haunt us.

And if we don't correct it in 2007 draft it will continue to do so

Good post. I agree completely. It's long past time to infuse some real talent and give McNally something to work with. As of today's date, accepting Fowler and assuming Peters looks good at LT, we need a LG, RG, and RT.

I'm leaving the rookies (Merz, Pennington, Butler) out of the mix for now. If one or more of them steps in and looks outstanding over the next nine games, then maybe our shopping list shrinks. But as of now, I hope the scouts are spending their time watching OLs.

[kernowboy]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

Good post. I agree completely. It's long past time to infuse some real talent and give McNally something to work with. As of today's date, accepting Fowler and assuming Peters looks good at LT, we need a LG, RG, and RT.

I'm leaving the rookies (Merz, Pennington, Butler) out of the mix for now. If one or more of them steps in and looks outstanding over the next nine games, then maybe our shopping list shrinks. But as of now, I hope the scouts are spending their time watching OLs.

I am happy with either Butler or Pennington as our ultimate RT a new Howard Ballard

I am however unsure of Peters at LT. Even if he does well. that could be in comparison to Gandy.

I believe we solve the LG position by sliding Peters inside where he can use his 328lbs

There is a poverty of internal OL prospects in the draft but an excess of outside OL prospects. A number of them would be great LTs but lack the 'shape' to be a guard.

I am also concerned by what happened to Lepsis.

Next season if that happens to Peters we replace him with .? ....
If we have another LT starting who gets injured, we slide Peters out. Ultimately it is easier to find guards who can do an average job than it is to get an average LT to do the job

And I'd be more comfortable if it was Peters moving there than trying to move Pennington there and start Butler.

Example

Rookie LT - Peters - Fowler - Merz - Pennington
rookie gets injured - Peters slides out

or

Peters - LG - Fowler - Merz - Pennington
Peters get injured - Pennington has to swap, RT becomes Butler

I prefer option 1

[kernowboy]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

Top Offensive Line Free Agents in 2007

Max Starks RFA Pittsburgh Steelers
Starks is a starting tackle for a Super Bowl champion. That’s enough in itself to get some teams a little excited about the prospects of acquiring him. The fact that Starks is young, talented, and massive in stature—listed at 6’8”, 337 lbs.—just adds to the excitement pile. Another lineman that shouldn’t be going anywhere as the Steelers will not let Starks go without a fight. The best bet is that Starks will decide he wants to stay in Pittsburgh and sign an extension. If he hits the market, there will be a team or two willing to pay a big amount to entice the tackle to relocate. Leonard Davis UFA Arizona Cardinals
Davis is a massive tackle that the Cardinals can’t afford to lose to free agency. The Arizona offensive line is already suspect, and losing Davis would be a huge step in the wrong direction, but the team may have to let him go and find a replacement if they aren’t prepared to offer decent money. Davis has shown the ability to simply be a wall of protection for his quarterback and while teams might not line up for the chance to sign him, anyone looking for a tackle will have him high on the list. The Cardinals are more than likely going to push to re-sign him before he hits the market.
Mike Gandy, UFA, Buffalo Bills
A relatively young starting left tackle, Gandy had been blocking for Willis McGahee over the past two seasons, and this season could go a long way in making Gandy an appealing free agent. He has talent, but isn’t considered among the league’s best linemen. However, a decent starting left tackle doesn’t just drop from the sky, so expect him to garner interest from a handful of teams, if Buffalo doesn’t re-sign him before the market opens.
Other Free Agent Offensive Linemen
Jordan Black, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs
Dwayne Carswell, UFA, Denver Broncos
Derrick Dockery, UFA, Washington Redskins
Nat Dorsey, RFA, Cleveland Browns
Chris Gray, UFA, Seattle Seahawks
Norm Katnik, RFA, New York Jets
Ryan Lilja, RFA, Indianapolis Colts
Sean Locklear, RFA, Seattle Seahawks
Vincent Manuwai, UFA, Jacksonville Jaguars
Roman Oben, UFA, San Diego Chargers
Brian Rimpf, RFA, Baltimore Ravens
Eric Steinbach, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Todd Steussie, UFA, St. Louis Rams
Floyd Womack, UFA, Seattle Seahawks




Here is a list of possibles, who would you like?

Steinbach is the only one on there, who doesn't have bust written on him, but he'll demand a Hutchinson size contract and I think the Bengals will franchise him if they can't sign him

[PECKERWOOD]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

I am happy with either Butler or Pennington as our ultimate RT a new Howard Ballard

I am however unsure of Peters at LT. Even if he does well. that could be in comparison to Gandy.

I believe we solve the LG position by sliding Peters inside where he can use his 328lbs

There is a poverty of internal OL prospects in the draft but an excess of outside OL prospects. A number of them would be great LTs but lack the 'shape' to be a guard.

I am also concerned by what happened to Lepsis.

Next season if that happens to Peters we replace him with .? ....
If we have another LT starting who gets injured, we slide Peters out. Ultimately it is easier to find guards who can do an average job than it is to get an average LT to do the job

And I'd be more comfortable if it was Peters moving there than trying to move Pennington there and start Butler.

Example

Rookie LT - Peters - Fowler - Merz - Pennington
rookie gets injured - Peters slides out

or

Peters - LG - Fowler - Merz - Pennington
Peters get injured - Pennington has to swap, RT becomes Butler

I prefer option 1

Its silly how you throw Gandy underneath the bus so much, yet you have annointed Butler or Pennington as our new "Howard Ballard". Give me a break man. I expect to see better posts than that from you. The coaching staff has our OL right, you cant just pile a bunch of rookies on our OL and expect it to click.

[Mahdi]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

I have tried to defend McNally, I really have, but this cat just isnt' cutting it. Time to bring in someone to teach cut blocking and zone blocking like Denver and atlanta does and watch willis and Co rush for 2000 yards combined. You want JP to get better? Running the ball well enough to put up those numbers between all of your backs will make ANY QB better in a damn hurry

McNally has taken zero talent and made somewhat of an O-line. Turning an undrafted TE into a quality RT, let alone LT is a feat in itself. For that alone I would keep Mcnally, imagine what he could do with some first day picks.

[TigerJ]

Re: Another Take on the O-Line

I have a question about the offensive line. Actually, its my opinion and would like to hear what others have to say. I am not convinced that the problems with the offense are nessassarily totally the offensive line. Obviously, that is a problem but what if JP is a big factor in the lines problems? We have seen JP stand in the pocket too long against the Patriots. That Pat defense is not a push-over and many times JP had plenty of time. That means they were doing their job. My feeling is that the lineman are trying to compensate and give JP extra time.

That is just my opinion and do believe the changes at OL were needed. The main thing obviously being Mike Gandy! Hopefully he will do well at G for us!

I don't think there's any question that part of the problem is JP Losman. I'm not sure there's any way to quantify it except by maybe watching how the offence responds to the changes on the line. The debate on Losman centers on the future. There are some who think he's a hopeless bust, some who think he still has a chance to develop but should warm the bench longer until he's more ready to step in . And there are some who think he's got to play to have a real chance to get better, and the team might as well take its lumps now so that we finally have a real QB when all is said and done.

Another area were we all agree is that the old line configuration wasn't working and it was time to do something. Whether that something works is another question and we'll just have to wait a bit before we see much of an answer.