Another Take on the O-Line

[scott51]

I have a question about the offensive line. Actually, its my opinion and would like to hear what others have to say. I am not convinced that the problems with the offense are nessassarily totally the offensive line. Obviously, that is a problem but what if JP is a big factor in the lines problems? We have seen JP stand in the pocket too long against the Patriots. That Pat defense is not a push-over and many times JP had plenty of time. That means they were doing their job. My feeling is that the lineman are trying to compensate and give JP extra time.

That is just my opinion and do believe the changes at OL were needed. The main thing obviously being Mike Gandy! Hopefully he will do well at G for us!

[justasportsfan]

JP agrees with you and so do the majority of the people here. It's both the OL and the qb.

[kernowboy]

Agreed - what I think we have also tried to do is get by with very limited talent on the OL and its finally come back to haunt us.

While there are busts as well as stars, and we should know that with Mike Williams, this happens in every position, coming down to inflated college performance and figures, level of opposition, character etc.

Since we selected Ruben Brown in 1995, we have picked only one OL player in Rounds 1 and 2 in the last 11 years. In fact we have only picked 3 OL players in the whole of Day1 in the last 11 drafts!!!

We are the only OL in the entire NFL which does not have an original Round 1 or Round 2 starting, either drafted by them or signed in FA

Whilst it is always good to find good role players on Day2 or in OFA, you have to have at least some quality !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the Broncos, long held up as the poster child of getting a line put together whilst dipping into the bargain bucket, have a Round 1 in the starting line.u[

If you go out and buy a cheap pair of sneakers, you have to expect them to fall apart pretty quickly and not be up to scratch.

We've been buying a very cheap OL and its come back to haunt us.

And if we don't correct it in 2007 draft it will continue to do so

[ICE74129]

JP agrees with you and so do the majority of the people here. It's both the OL and the qb.Exactly, but to JP's defense, no QB can protect his own blindside.

Every QB MUST have faith in his OL and there is no way in hell JP does right now regardless of what he says.

[HHURRICANE]

I am not convinced that the problems with the offense are nessassarily totally the offensive line. Obviously, that is a problem but what if JP is a big factor in the lines problems? We have seen JP stand in the pocket too long against the Patriots. That Pat defense is not a push-over and many times JP had plenty of time. That means they were doing their job. My feeling is that the lineman are trying to compensate and give JP extra time.

That is just my opinion and do believe the changes at OL were needed. The main thing obviously being Mike Gandy! Hopefully he will do well at G for us!

Okay, I do believe that the line is slightly better than last year. But alot of JP's fumbles were the result of blown blocks. If I have to watch Gandy in that pose, the one where he looks like "oh **** that was my guy" I'm going to hurl. Villareal blew an assignment and JP did actually have 2 hands on the ball, but the result was a fumble.

There is no doubt that JP might want to consider that his line sucks and make sure he's prepared for that by keeping the ball better protected. It's obvious that if the ref can cause you to cough up the ball than a 275/lb DE can for sure.

THE OL isn't that bad but when they do mistakes it's catastrophic ones at points where we could have scored.


It may also be time to consider that McNally might not be the genius everyone on OBD thinks he is.

[bflojohn]

Genius status might be "regained" by Jim McNally IF Terrence Pennington can "cut it" as a starter. Think about this, Peters and Pennington within, what, two years? Pretty sound coaching in my book IF it can be pulled off. Aaron Merz also held his own against the Patriots, so maybe the Bills have provided Mr. McNally with some "Tools" to work with! The other slant on this is that there has been a fairly steady turnover at, oh say, OLG. Bennie Anderson, Tutan Reyes, and now Mike Gandy....NO CONTINUITY THERE!! The beauty can obviously be in the eye of the beholder. I'm NOT down on Jim McNally at all, I think his body of work to this point has been fine.

[scott51]

Agreed - what I think we have also tried to do is get by with very limited talent on the OL and its finally come back to haunt us.

While there are busts as well as stars, and we should know that with Mike Williams, this happens in every position, coming down to inflated college performance and figures, level of opposition, character etc.

Since we selected Ruben Brown in 1995, we have picked only one OL player in Rounds 1 and 2 in the last 11 years. In fact we have only picked 3 OL players in the whole of Day1 in the last 11 drafts!!!

We are the only OL in the entire NFL which does not have an original Round 1 or Round 2 starting, either drafted by them or signed in FA

Whilst it is always good to find good role players on Day2 or in OFA, you have to have at least some quality !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the Broncos, long held up as the poster child of getting a line put together whilst dipping into the bargain bucket, have a Round 1 in the starting line.u[

If you go out and buy a cheap pair of sneakers, you have to expect them to fall apart pretty quickly and not be up to scratch.

We've been buying a very cheap OL and its come back to haunt us.

And if we don't correct it in 2007 draft it will continue to do so

Yup! IMO, we should have traded up in the latest draft so that we could pick up D'Brickshaw Ferguson. I know its in the past and can't be changed but I feel that would have been a HUGE step in the right direction! Hopefully we will focus on that for 2007!

[scott51]

Top Offensive Line Free Agents in 2007

Max Starks RFA Pittsburgh Steelers
Starks is a starting tackle for a Super Bowl champion. That’s enough in itself to get some teams a little excited about the prospects of acquiring him. The fact that Starks is young, talented, and massive in stature—listed at 6’8”, 337 lbs.—just adds to the excitement pile. Another lineman that shouldn’t be going anywhere as the Steelers will not let Starks go without a fight. The best bet is that Starks will decide he wants to stay in Pittsburgh and sign an extension. If he hits the market, there will be a team or two willing to pay a big amount to entice the tackle to relocate. Leonard Davis UFA Arizona Cardinals
Davis is a massive tackle that the Cardinals can’t afford to lose to free agency. The Arizona offensive line is already suspect, and losing Davis would be a huge step in the wrong direction, but the team may have to let him go and find a replacement if they aren’t prepared to offer decent money. Davis has shown the ability to simply be a wall of protection for his quarterback and while teams might not line up for the chance to sign him, anyone looking for a tackle will have him high on the list. The Cardinals are more than likely going to push to re-sign him before he hits the market.
Mike Gandy, UFA, Buffalo Bills
A relatively young starting left tackle, Gandy had been blocking for Willis McGahee over the past two seasons, and this season could go a long way in making Gandy an appealing free agent. He has talent, but isn’t considered among the league’s best linemen. However, a decent starting left tackle doesn’t just drop from the sky, so expect him to garner interest from a handful of teams, if Buffalo doesn’t re-sign him before the market opens.
Other Free Agent Offensive Linemen
Jordan Black, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs
Dwayne Carswell, UFA, Denver Broncos
Derrick Dockery, UFA, Washington Redskins
Nat Dorsey, RFA, Cleveland Browns
Chris Gray, UFA, Seattle Seahawks
Norm Katnik, RFA, New York Jets
Ryan Lilja, RFA, Indianapolis Colts
Sean Locklear, RFA, Seattle Seahawks
Vincent Manuwai, UFA, Jacksonville Jaguars
Roman Oben, UFA, San Diego Chargers
Brian Rimpf, RFA, Baltimore Ravens
Eric Steinbach, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Todd Steussie, UFA, St. Louis Rams
Floyd Womack, UFA, Seattle Seahawks




Here is a list of possibles, who would you like?

[ICE74129]

Okay, I do believe that the line is slightly better than last year. But alot of JP's fumbles were the result of blown blocks. If I have to watch Gandy in that pose, the one where he looks like "oh **** that was my guy" I'm going to hurl. Villareal blew an assignment and JP did actually have 2 hands on the ball, but the result was a fumble.

There is no doubt that JP might want to consider that his line sucks and make sure he's prepared for that by keeping the ball better protected. It's obvious that if the ref can cause you to cough up the ball than a 275/lb DE can for sure.

THE OL isn't that bad but when they do mistakes it's catastrophic ones at points where we could have scored.


It may also be time to consider that McNally might not be the genius everyone on OBD thinks he is.

I have tried to defend McNally, I really have, but this cat just isnt' cutting it. Time to bring in someone to teach cut blocking and zone blocking like Denver and atlanta does and watch willis and Co rush for 2000 yards combined. You want JP to get better? Running the ball well enough to put up those numbers between all of your backs will make ANY QB better in a damn hurry

[Saratoga Slim]

Agreed - what I think we have also tried to do is get by with very limited talent on the OL and its finally come back to haunt us.

While there are busts as well as stars, and we should know that with Mike Williams, this happens in every position, coming down to inflated college performance and figures, level of opposition, character etc.

Since we selected Ruben Brown in 1995, we have picked only one OL player in Rounds 1 and 2 in the last 11 years. In fact we have only picked 3 OL players in the whole of Day1 in the last 11 drafts!!!

We are the only OL in the entire NFL which does not have an original Round 1 or Round 2 starting, either drafted by them or signed in FA

Whilst it is always good to find good role players on Day2 or in OFA, you have to have at least some quality !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the Broncos, long held up as the poster child of getting a line put together whilst dipping into the bargain bucket, have a Round 1 in the starting line.u[

If you go out and buy a cheap pair of sneakers, you have to expect them to fall apart pretty quickly and not be up to scratch.

We've been buying a very cheap OL and its come back to haunt us.

And if we don't correct it in 2007 draft it will continue to do so

Good post. I agree completely. It's long past time to infuse some real talent and give McNally something to work with. As of today's date, accepting Fowler and assuming Peters looks good at LT, we need a LG, RG, and RT.

I'm leaving the rookies (Merz, Pennington, Butler) out of the mix for now. If one or more of them steps in and looks outstanding over the next nine games, then maybe our shopping list shrinks. But as of now, I hope the scouts are spending their time watching OLs.

[kernowboy]

Good post. I agree completely. It's long past time to infuse some real talent and give McNally something to work with. As of today's date, accepting Fowler and assuming Peters looks good at LT, we need a LG, RG, and RT.

I'm leaving the rookies (Merz, Pennington, Butler) out of the mix for now. If one or more of them steps in and looks outstanding over the next nine games, then maybe our shopping list shrinks. But as of now, I hope the scouts are spending their time watching OLs.

I am happy with either Butler or Pennington as our ultimate RT a new Howard Ballard

I am however unsure of Peters at LT. Even if he does well. that could be in comparison to Gandy.

I believe we solve the LG position by sliding Peters inside where he can use his 328lbs

There is a poverty of internal OL prospects in the draft but an excess of outside OL prospects. A number of them would be great LTs but lack the 'shape' to be a guard.

I am also concerned by what happened to Lepsis.

Next season if that happens to Peters we replace him with .? ....
If we have another LT starting who gets injured, we slide Peters out. Ultimately it is easier to find guards who can do an average job than it is to get an average LT to do the job

And I'd be more comfortable if it was Peters moving there than trying to move Pennington there and start Butler.

Example

Rookie LT - Peters - Fowler - Merz - Pennington
rookie gets injured - Peters slides out

or

Peters - LG - Fowler - Merz - Pennington
Peters get injured - Pennington has to swap, RT becomes Butler

I prefer option 1

[kernowboy]

Top Offensive Line Free Agents in 2007

Max Starks RFA Pittsburgh Steelers
Starks is a starting tackle for a Super Bowl champion. That’s enough in itself to get some teams a little excited about the prospects of acquiring him. The fact that Starks is young, talented, and massive in stature—listed at 6’8”, 337 lbs.—just adds to the excitement pile. Another lineman that shouldn’t be going anywhere as the Steelers will not let Starks go without a fight. The best bet is that Starks will decide he wants to stay in Pittsburgh and sign an extension. If he hits the market, there will be a team or two willing to pay a big amount to entice the tackle to relocate. Leonard Davis UFA Arizona Cardinals
Davis is a massive tackle that the Cardinals can’t afford to lose to free agency. The Arizona offensive line is already suspect, and losing Davis would be a huge step in the wrong direction, but the team may have to let him go and find a replacement if they aren’t prepared to offer decent money. Davis has shown the ability to simply be a wall of protection for his quarterback and while teams might not line up for the chance to sign him, anyone looking for a tackle will have him high on the list. The Cardinals are more than likely going to push to re-sign him before he hits the market.
Mike Gandy, UFA, Buffalo Bills
A relatively young starting left tackle, Gandy had been blocking for Willis McGahee over the past two seasons, and this season could go a long way in making Gandy an appealing free agent. He has talent, but isn’t considered among the league’s best linemen. However, a decent starting left tackle doesn’t just drop from the sky, so expect him to garner interest from a handful of teams, if Buffalo doesn’t re-sign him before the market opens.
Other Free Agent Offensive Linemen
Jordan Black, UFA, Kansas City Chiefs
Dwayne Carswell, UFA, Denver Broncos
Derrick Dockery, UFA, Washington Redskins
Nat Dorsey, RFA, Cleveland Browns
Chris Gray, UFA, Seattle Seahawks
Norm Katnik, RFA, New York Jets
Ryan Lilja, RFA, Indianapolis Colts
Sean Locklear, RFA, Seattle Seahawks
Vincent Manuwai, UFA, Jacksonville Jaguars
Roman Oben, UFA, San Diego Chargers
Brian Rimpf, RFA, Baltimore Ravens
Eric Steinbach, UFA, Cincinnati Bengals
Todd Steussie, UFA, St. Louis Rams
Floyd Womack, UFA, Seattle Seahawks




Here is a list of possibles, who would you like?

Steinbach is the only one on there, who doesn't have bust written on him, but he'll demand a Hutchinson size contract and I think the Bengals will franchise him if they can't sign him

[PECKERWOOD]

I am happy with either Butler or Pennington as our ultimate RT a new Howard Ballard

I am however unsure of Peters at LT. Even if he does well. that could be in comparison to Gandy.

I believe we solve the LG position by sliding Peters inside where he can use his 328lbs

There is a poverty of internal OL prospects in the draft but an excess of outside OL prospects. A number of them would be great LTs but lack the 'shape' to be a guard.

I am also concerned by what happened to Lepsis.

Next season if that happens to Peters we replace him with .? ....
If we have another LT starting who gets injured, we slide Peters out. Ultimately it is easier to find guards who can do an average job than it is to get an average LT to do the job

And I'd be more comfortable if it was Peters moving there than trying to move Pennington there and start Butler.

Example

Rookie LT - Peters - Fowler - Merz - Pennington
rookie gets injured - Peters slides out

or

Peters - LG - Fowler - Merz - Pennington
Peters get injured - Pennington has to swap, RT becomes Butler

I prefer option 1

Its silly how you throw Gandy underneath the bus so much, yet you have annointed Butler or Pennington as our new "Howard Ballard". Give me a break man. I expect to see better posts than that from you. The coaching staff has our OL right, you cant just pile a bunch of rookies on our OL and expect it to click.

[Mahdi]

I have tried to defend McNally, I really have, but this cat just isnt' cutting it. Time to bring in someone to teach cut blocking and zone blocking like Denver and atlanta does and watch willis and Co rush for 2000 yards combined. You want JP to get better? Running the ball well enough to put up those numbers between all of your backs will make ANY QB better in a damn hurry
McNally has taken zero talent and made somewhat of an O-line. Turning an undrafted TE into a quality RT, let alone LT is a feat in itself. For that alone I would keep Mcnally, imagine what he could do with some first day picks.

[TigerJ]

I have a question about the offensive line. Actually, its my opinion and would like to hear what others have to say. I am not convinced that the problems with the offense are nessassarily totally the offensive line. Obviously, that is a problem but what if JP is a big factor in the lines problems? We have seen JP stand in the pocket too long against the Patriots. That Pat defense is not a push-over and many times JP had plenty of time. That means they were doing their job. My feeling is that the lineman are trying to compensate and give JP extra time.

That is just my opinion and do believe the changes at OL were needed. The main thing obviously being Mike Gandy! Hopefully he will do well at G for us!I don't think there's any question that part of the problem is JP Losman. I'm not sure there's any way to quantify it except by maybe watching how the offence responds to the changes on the line. The debate on Losman centers on the future. There are some who think he's a hopeless bust, some who think he still has a chance to develop but should warm the bench longer until he's more ready to step in . And there are some who think he's got to play to have a real chance to get better, and the team might as well take its lumps now so that we finally have a real QB when all is said and done.

Another area were we all agree is that the old line configuration wasn't working and it was time to do something. Whether that something works is another question and we'll just have to wait a bit before we see much of an answer.

[kernowboy]

Its silly how you throw Gandy underneath the bus so much, yet you have annointed Butler or Pennington as our new "Howard Ballard". Give me a break man. I expect to see better posts than that from you. The coaching staff has our OL right, you cant just pile a bunch of rookies on our OL and expect it to click.

Exactly how many chances do you give a guy who clearly can't hack it?

Gandy with bonuses is costing $2,505,000
Butler $275,000
Pennington $275,000

My exact quote was

"I am happy with either Butler or Pennington as our ultimate RT a new Howard Ballard"

This says we may have on our hands a big 7th rounder who could turn out to be a good player. I was making the parallel that a RT doesn't have to be a Day1 pick to become a solid player.

Gandy has so far in over 5 years in the league shown that he is not a good player.

Gandy started 30 games in Chicago, the majority of them at guard. He was so good and talented that he got CUT and he was so good and talented that 31 other teams left him out to dry

Upon his first season with the Bills he started 16 games, during which we won only 5 games. This season his play has been dismal.

I will admit he is talented .... I mean how the hell did he convince us to pay him $2.5m?

Exactly what makes you think we can make a success where he has already been tried and failed? After 55 games - 53 starting, do you not feel there might have been the indication of the slighest bit of talent?

[Ron Burgundy]

I think Gandy'll be alright at guard.

It'd be nuts to waste Peters, who is a crazy athlete for his size, on the interior of the line.

[don137]

I don't think anyone is blaming the OL solely. It is the OL, JP and McGahee's fault there are so many sack and turnovers.

[kernowboy]

I think Gandy'll be alright at guard.

It'd be nuts to waste Peters, who is a crazy athlete for his size, on the interior of the line.

and if we get one of the top LTs coming out this year would it be nuts to have a top LT and a great LG rather than a great LT and an adequate retread at LG?

We seem to get on Evans and Losmans and McGee's back the moment they stop performing. Well all I can say is at least they have at some stage performed. Gandhi's single greatest performance after 5 years and 50 odd games in the NFL is to get $2.5m a season. It certainly has not been a performance on the field.

What evidence does any one have that Gandy will play any better here at guard, than he did playing guard in Chicago? He was cut due to the stellar level of performance he exhibited there.

As a Bills fan I am sick of having to put with players that 31 other teams avoided like the plague

[PECKERWOOD]

Exactly how many chances do you give a guy who clearly can't hack it?

Gandy with bonuses is costing $2,505,000
Butler $275,000
Pennington $275,000

My exact quote was

"I am happy with either Butler or Pennington as our ultimate RT a new Howard Ballard"

This says we may have on our hands a big 7th rounder who could turn out to be a good player. I was making the parallel that a RT doesn't have to be a Day1 pick to become a solid player.

Gandy has so far in over 5 years in the league shown that he is not a good player.

Gandy started 30 games in Chicago, the majority of them at guard. He was so good and talented that he got CUT and he was so good and talented that 31 other teams left him out to dry

Upon his first season with the Bills he started 16 games, during which we won only 5 games. This season his play has been dismal.

I will admit he is talented .... I mean how the hell did he convince us to pay him $2.5m?

Exactly what makes you think we can make a success where he has already been tried and failed? After 55 games - 53 starting, do you not feel there might have been the indication of the slighest bit of talent?

You say Gandy cant hack it, but he can. He is a good LG/RG, and last I checked were weak at G. Your saying he cant hack because of his play at LT the past couple of weeks. Have you even watched the guy play before that? It seems like people have very short memories here. Now I have no problem in seeing what the rookies got, especially Merz. But to get rid of Gandy is a bad idea, imo. Also, 31 other teams didnt leave 'Gandy out to dry', are you going to say that about any other FA? Only one team can get him, and if nobody wanted him we wouldnt have paid him close to 2.5$, so there goes that theory. Instead, you would rather draft or plug in every 7th round newbie in the world, and expect them to be the next House Ballard. Lets be realistic here, Gandy isnt our worst OL men, and he certainly isnt getting paid too much. You talk about throwing money into the OL, yet you are being a cheapskate over 2.5$mil.

[PECKERWOOD]

Oh yeah, theres alot of players that needed a change of scenery. And once they moved to a different location they exceled. What makes you think if somebody fails in one place, they cant succeed in another?

[Ron Burgundy]

and if we get one of the top LTs coming out this year would it be nuts to have a top LT and a great LG rather than a great LT and an adequate retread at LG?

Yes, it's still a terrible idea. Tackles are rarely ready to start right out of the box, and if Peters turns out ot be a monster LT then we don't need to draft one, do we? And if you do draft a LT, then you put Peters back on the right side. Booyah, bookends.


We seem to get on Evans and Losmans and McGee's back the moment they stop performing. Well all I can say is at least they have at some stage performed. Gandhi's single greatest performance after 5 years and 50 odd games in the NFL is to get $2.5m a season. It certainly has not been a performance on the field.

I don't know. I haven't seen him at guard here yet. I think he'll be alright.


What evidence does any one have that Gandy will play any better here at guard, than he did playing guard in Chicago? He was cut due to the stellar level of performance he exhibited there.

Gandy was fine at guard. He was actually good enough that they switched him to left tackle, 'cause their line sucked too. Where are you getting this information?

Anyways, I'm willing to give him a shot. He's not even our worst o-lineman, he's just waaay out of position at LT.

[PECKERWOOD]

Yes, it's still a terrible idea. Tackles are rarely ready to start right out of the box, and if Peters turns out ot be a monster LT then we don't need to draft one, do we? And if you do draft a LT, then you put Peters back on the right side. Booyah, bookends.



I don't know. I haven't seen him at guard here yet. I think he'll be alright.



Gandy was fine at guard. He was actually good enough that they switched him to left tackle, 'cause their line sucked too. Where are you getting this information?

Anyways, I'm willing to give him a shot. He's not even our worst o-lineman, he's just waaay out of position at LT.

Agree 100% Finally, someone who sees it.

[kernowboy]

You say Gandy cant hack it, but he can. He is a good LG/RG, and last I checked were weak at G. Your saying he cant hack because of his play at LT the past couple of weeks. Have you even watched the guy play before that? It seems like people have very short memories here. Now I have no problem in seeing what the rookies got, especially Merz. But to get rid of Gandy is a bad idea, imo. Also, 31 other teams didnt leave 'Gandy out to dry', are you going to say that about any other FA? Only one team can get him, and if nobody wanted him we wouldnt have paid him close to 2.5$, so there goes that theory. Instead, you would rather draft or plug in every 7th round newbie in the world, and expect them to be the next House Ballard. Lets be realistic here, Gandy isnt our worst OL men, and he certainly isnt getting paid too much. You talk about throwing money into the OL, yet you are being a cheapskate over 2.5$mil.

Because we cannot pay everyone $2.5m

Our salary cost would be $132.5m otherwise.

For everyone who says we need to resign or replace Fletcher, Clements, keep Spikes, get a big WR, a better tight end, better DEs, more muscle in the middle of the DL ... THAT MONEY HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE !!!!!!!

and for every player we pay $2.5m when their play deserves $1.25m means that saved $1.25m cannot go towards a Freeney or Steinbach

Its the basic arithmetic we learn in England before the age of 11

[kernowboy]

Yes, it's still a terrible idea. Tackles are rarely ready to start right out of the box, and if Peters turns out ot be a monster LT then we don't need to draft one, do we? And if you do draft a LT, then you put Peters back on the right side. Booyah, bookends.



I don't know. I haven't seen him at guard here yet. I think he'll be alright.



Gandy was fine at guard. He was actually good enough that they switched him to left tackle, 'cause their line sucked too. Where are you getting this information?

Anyways, I'm willing to give him a shot. He's not even our worst o-lineman, he's just waaay out of position at LT.

If he was that great at guard for the Bears, why was he cut when he could have been moved back to guard?

If he was that great at guard for the Bears why was he not snapped up immediately by 31 other teams rather than sit out the rest of the season?

If he was so poor at LT, why the hell did we sign him at LT?

I am await the information suggesting his brilliance as a Bears guard with interest

[Ron Burgundy]

Because we cannot pay everyone $2.5m

Our salary cost would be $132.5m otherwise.

For everyone who says we need to resign or replace Fletcher, Clements, keep Spikes, get a big WR, a better tight end, better DEs, more muscle in the middle of the DL ... THAT MONEY HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE !!!!!!!

and for every player we pay $2.5m when their play deserves $1.25m means that saved $1.25m cannot go towards a Freeney or Steinbach

Its the basic arithmetic we learn in England before the age of 11

You can't cut him now, it doesn't help next year's cap a bit, and he's in a contract year. Which means no matter what, he's getting a new contract next year. Whether it's from us or not will depend on his play this year, and since we know he's not hacking it at left tackle, why wouldn't you try him out at guard?

I'm glad they did hit arithmetic in England, but they sure didn't teach you **** about football...or logic, apparently.

[PECKERWOOD]

Because we cannot pay everyone $2.5m

Our salary cost would be $132.5m otherwise.

For everyone who says we need to resign or replace Fletcher, Clements, keep Spikes, get a big WR, a better tight end, better DEs, more muscle in the middle of the DL ... THAT MONEY HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE !!!!!!!

and for every player we pay $2.5m when their play deserves $1.25m means that saved $1.25m cannot go towards a Freeney or Steinbach

Its the basic arithmetic we learn in England before the age of 11
Yes, Steinbachs and Freeneys salaries are going to be around 7 million each. We cannot pay everyone on the roster 7 million kernowboy or our cap would be 371 million. I know typing numbers makes you look smart, but please save it. You keep a guy like Gandy for 2.5$ mil a year. You assert that you would like to bolster our OL, but you think cutting one of our better OL men is how you do that. And as far as your statement about Steinbach goes, I would rather have 5 guys worth 2.5$ each, than one guy worth 7mil and neglecting the other positions on our OL.

I know you are English, so I must ask you: Are we watching the same football? You dont replace your OL in a day, you have to keep your best players, subtract the worst players and make that position better. Its much more value for your money, and it makes our team much better all over, versus in one position. Get the idea that one big FA is going to save the team, out of your head. We need a series of Good players to get the job done. And paying Freeney and Steinbach 7$mil isnt the way to do it.

[kernowboy]

You keep a guy like Gandy for 2.5$ mil a year. You assert that you would like to bolster our OL, but you think cutting one of our better OL men is how you do that. .

Hahahahahaha .......with a comment like that I think you must be Borat. Peters is better, Fowler has been better, Reyes has been to the same standard. We don't know about Pennington or Butler. Merz has done well in his first game considering the lack of preparation. Only Villarial has done worse.

I am not advocating going out and signing Freeney or Steinbach.

I am saying that Gandy hasn't deserved his salary. If we divide the cap by 53, are we saying that Gandy is playing above average? No he is not

However, we could sign others like Womack, Manuwai or Black who might play for less than Gandy and offer the same or more. They haven't been cut. They are UFA.

We get lucky starting 7th Rounders who MAY turn into another Ballard so that we have extra money under the cap to sign stellar players who's salary would be over the cap average of $2.05m (I think)

We don't do it to pay players like Gandy over the cap average.

If Gandy was such a good guard, when he was cut after 5 games for the Bears in 2004, why was he not signed until after the end of the 2004 season

or is that what you'd prefer- to pay over the average to players who have been at best average?

p.s. I have a friend who lives in Detroit who copies, or gets hold of copies of every televised Bills game and sends them over.

[kernowboy]

You can't cut him now, it doesn't help next year's cap a bit, and he's in a contract year. Which means no matter what, he's getting a new contract next year. Whether it's from us or not will depend on his play this year, and since we know he's not hacking it at left tackle, why wouldn't you try him out at guard?

I'm glad they did hit arithmetic in England, but they sure didn't teach you **** about football...or logic, apparently.

Ron Burgundy and Buffalo Fever

I have not been advocating we cut Mike Gandy this season. I am aware that he is in his contract year.

The argument I have been putting forward is that at $2.5m per year, he has not played to the level of his salary. His play has been at best average so he should be paid the average wage which is 20% less if he is to be re-signed.

And I am not advocating that we go out and sign Freeney or Steinbach. I have said that I am not sure Freeney would fit well with Schobel and I do think Steinbach will be too expensive though I think if we could get him for $4m a season he would be a significant upgrade. The Bengals have signed Levi Jones, Bobby Williams and Willie Anderson to big money here so there is an outside chance.

As for Gandy, if he's not prepared to play for less, then we should not look to re-sign him and see what we need to pay for Jordan Black, Vince Manuwai, Derrick Dockery or Floyd Womack. Only if Gandy re-signs for less would I be tempted to bring him back. We may also draft a good player.

In many ways we hold the cards and it frustrates the hell out of me, that the Bills are paying above the average roster salary for below average pay. Gandy has been held up as the poster child of this, which I will admit is unfair as Price, Reed, Royal, Tripplett could all be in his place.

But until we display sound roster financial judgement, it will be quite some time before we can outbid any other team for a top FA as the money will be tied up elsewhere.

[PECKERWOOD]

Hahahahahaha .......with a comment like that I think you must be Borat. Peters is better, Fowler has been better, Reyes has been to the same standard. We don't know about Pennington or Butler. Merz has done well in his first game considering the lack of preparation. Only Villarial has done worse.

I am not advocating going out and signing Freeney or Steinbach.

I am saying that Gandy hasn't deserved his salary. If we divide the cap by 53, are we saying that Gandy is playing above average? No he is not

However, we could sign others like Womack, Manuwai or Black who might play for less than Gandy and offer the same or more. They haven't been cut. They are UFA.

We get lucky starting 7th Rounders who MAY turn into another Ballard so that we have extra money under the cap to sign stellar players who's salary would be over the cap average of $2.05m (I think)

We don't do it to pay players like Gandy over the cap average.

If Gandy was such a good guard, when he was cut after 5 games for the Bears in 2004, why was he not signed until after the end of the 2004 season

or is that what you'd prefer- to pay over the average to players who have been at best average?

p.s. I have a friend who lives in Detroit who copies, or gets hold of copies of every televised Bills game and sends them over.



or is that what you'd prefer- to pay over the average to players who have been at best average?

Did I say that? I said I would rather have a team full of average players, versus a team with crap players and a couple of stars in the mix. You win football games by having a well rounded team.


We get lucky starting 7th Rounders who MAY turn into another Ballard so that we have extra money under the cap to sign stellar players who's salary would be over the cap average of $2.05m (I think)
I would rather keep players that have proved to be good than to get 'lucky' and try to find a House Ballard out of the mix. And your $2.05m average thing, isnt correct.



However, we could sign others like Womack, Manuwai or Black who might play for less than Gandy and offer the same or more. They haven't been cut. They are UFA.

I seriously doubt those guys would play for less. Womack was already brought in before, and he decided not to come. What makes you think he would decide to come now? Furthermore, if any of those guards listed would want to come to Buffalo. I would rather have them replace Villarial, and keep Gandy.


If Gandy was such a good guard, when he was cut after 5 games for the Bears in 2004, why was he not signed until after the end of the 2004 season

Maybe, because the Bears have more depth and didnt need Gandy as much? Furthermore, maybe Gandy just needed a change of scenery? Alot of good players have gotten cut, hell we cut Eric Moulds. Does that make him a bad player? Players get cut all the time, it doesnt make them bad players.

If you want another Guard so bad, replace Villarial and Tutan. It makes no sense to get rid of a player over 500k. That is just ******ed, and you should seriously reconsider your argument. With that said, I will respond to any of your new posts directed to me later. I have to go for a bit.