Investment and development

[Yasgur's Farm]

JP is developing at a rate indicative of a late 1st round pick. If you all can't see that then I'm sorry.

There is an investment to be paid... The Bills have invested time into JP and it's obvious that he's shown enough growth to warrant a deeper investment. (See recent endorsements of Marv and D ick).

Bret Favre
Terry Bradshaw
John Elway
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Drew Bledsoe
Donovan McNabb
David Carr
Troy Aikman
Jake Delhomme
Matt Hasselback

These are just a few of the QB's some of you jammokes would have run outta town before they developed.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.

[PECKERWOOD]

I see you added Carr to the list, nice. I've been saying that Carr is a good QB all along, his OL just blows though. He is really starting to 'get it', after how many seasons? 6?

[Tatonka]

drew bledsoe developed?

[Yasgur's Farm]

drew bledsoe developed?LOL... Nope... But I figured most JP haters, being Drewlers, would appreciate his inclusion.

[mybills]

drew bledsoe developed?
:rofl:

[scott51]

drew bledsoe developed?

I thought the same thing when I read that list! Frankly, place in the draft means NOTHING! Take a look at Tom Brady, every team in the league past him up until the 7th round!

[jamze132]

I thought the same thing when I read that list! Frankly, place in the draft means NOTHING! Take a look at Tom Brady, every team in the league past him up until the 7th round!
6th

[patmoran2006]

JP is developing at a rate indicative of a late 1st round pick. If you all can't see that then I'm sorry.

There is an investment to be paid... The Bills have invested time into JP and it's obvious that he's shown enough growth to warrant a deeper investment. (See recent endorsements of Marv and D ick).

Bret Favre
Terry Bradshaw
John Elway
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Drew Bledsoe
Donovan McNabb
David Carr
Troy Aikman
Jake Delhomme
Matt Hasselback

These are just a few of the QB's some of you jammokes would have run outta town before they developed.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Horse ****.. Nice try at an excuse though.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
You like lists so much, how about this list.
<o:p></o:p>

Kyle Boller
Joey Harrington
Patrick Ramsey
Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Ryan Leaf
Jim Druckenmiller
Heath Shuler
Rick Mirer
Tommy Maddox
David Klinger
Todd Maranovich
Dan McGwire
Andre Ware<o:p></o:p>
ALL of them were first round picks at quarterback since 1990. How did their “development” go? Were they not “given time”.
<o:p></o:p>
Don’t give me that crap about “investment and development”. These guys all SUCKED even after given “time and development” to make something of themselves, and if you take a REAL CLOSE look at that first rounder bust-list, how many of those teams that drafted him have done ANYTHING? The answer = not too damn many. Most of these guys set their respective franchises back for YEARS.. I'm not willing to do that with Losman.

<o:p></o:p>
Losman is a HELL of a lot closer to being like the pieces of **** on this list than he is to your ridiculous Farve, Aikman, Manning, Elway, etc list.

<o:p></o:p>
It’s simple; forget the record and the stats.. You either have “it” or you DON’T. Even when these guys on your acclaimed list were losing, they still looked like they had the first clue on how to be a NFL quarterback. None of them recited Yoda Quotes to the press. None of them recite movies like the “Program” as a way to not fumble the ball. None of them go to the sidelines after a telegraphed interception or stupid sack and sulked by themselves. Everyone on your list even at a young age when their teams sucked were a LEADER.. JP Losman is the ANTI LEADER.. He’s just another one of the guys, and apparently not a very good one either. The vets blasted him last year, you can already sense players this year getting ready to throw him under the bus again, and his top WR indirectly or directly is already finger-pointing at him.

<o:p></o:p>
Again, forget stats and records.. Its about leadership and the ability to take your football team to the next level. If you honestly see that in Losman, then you’re crazy- I don’t care if he throws for 400 yards and 4 TD against GB next week; he’ll come back with three picks the next.. That’s the way he is.

<o:p></o:p>
It’s not Jauron’s fault, it’s not Levy’s fault.. It’s Donahoe’s fault. Levy felt there were no better options this year and he wanted to focus on building a defense.. Fine, but he’ll be the target of many fans rage should Losman be here next year with the same, tired **** at quarterback.

<o:p></o:p>
No disrespect, but the list I made up of Quarterbacks is a hell of a lot closer to fitting than yours.

[kernowboy]

I think at some point, we have stopped developing our own players in key positions, OL being the most obvious.

I think that most great sides have grown their own, supplementing their draft choices with one or two astute free agency signings or at least since its advent. Some sides have picked up a number of other teams alledged failures but they tend to be the exception to the rule. The sides that have packed their rosters with free agents never seemed to have worked or succeeded.

Poor scouting and poor player development produces poor teams.

It doesn't matter if we have drafted in the 1st or in the 7th or even if they are an OFA, if they have been probably scouted, and then developed with quality coaching they can make a positive contribution - building not just flash in the pan success only for today but continued success tomorrow.

and although this means success may not happen immediately, it is comforting that not only did all of our draft choices make the start of season roster but a 7b selection can come in under trying circumstances (late call up) and give a good account of himself - Aaron Merz

[kernowboy]

Horse ****.. Nice try at an excuse though.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
You like lists so much, how about this list.
<o:p></o:p>

Kyle Boller
Joey Harrington
Patrick Ramsey
Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Ryan Leaf
Jim Druckenmiller
Heath Shuler
Rick Mirer
Tommy Maddox
David Klinger
Todd Maranovich
Dan McGwire
Andre Ware<o:p></o:p>
ALL of them were first round picks at quarterback since 1990. How did their “development” go? Were they not “given time”.
<o:p></o:p>
Don’t give me that crap about “investment and development”. These guys all SUCKED even after given “time and development” to make something of themselves, and if you take a REAL CLOSE look at that first rounder bust-list, how many of those teams that drafted him have done ANYTHING? The answer = not too damn many. Most of these guys set their respective franchies back for YEARS.. I'm not willing to do that with Losman.
<o:p></o:p>
Losman is a HELL of a lot closer to being like the pieces of **** on this list than he is to your ridiculous Farve, Aikman, Manning, Elway, etc list.
<o:p></o:p>
It’s simple; forget the record and the stats.. You either have “it” or you DON’T. Even when these guys on your acclaimed list were losing, they still looked like they had the first clue on how to be a NFL quarterback. None of them recited Yoda Quotes to the press. None of them recite movies like the “Program” as a way to not fumble the ball. None of them go to the sidelines after a telegraphed interception or stupid sack and sulked by themselves. Everyone on your list even at a young age when their teams sucked were a LEADER.. JP Losman is the ANTI LEADER.. He’s just another one of the guys, and apparently not a very good one either. The vets blasted him last year, you can already sense players this year getting ready to throw him under the bus again, and his top WR indirectly or directly is already finger-pointing at him.
<o:p></o:p>
Again, forget stats and records.. Its about leadership and the ability to take your football team to the next level. If you honestly see that in Losman, then you’re crazy- I don’t care if he throws for 400 yards and 4 TD against GB next week; he’ll come back with three picks the next.. That’s the way he is.
<o:p></o:p>
It’s not Jauron’s fault, it’s not Levy’s fault.. It’s Donahoe’s fault. Levy felt there were no better options this year and he wanted to focus on building a defense.. Fine, but he’ll be the target of many fans rage should Losman be here next year with the same, tired **** at quarterback.
<o:p></o:p>
No disrespect, but the list I made up of Quarterbacks is a hell of a lot closer to fitting than yours.

Its all about quality scouting. The Pats have won 3 of the last 5 SuperBowls (I think) because they have drafted astutely and cleverly and have then decided on their own system and made astute free agents signings to fill the gaps.

I think it is no surprise that considering their team they have drafted their

QB
a key WR (with one for the future coming along)
TE
OL 4 out of 5 draft picks
the K
(oh and the RB of the future was drafted)

the entire DL
3 out of 4 of the DBs


in fact the only area they've plugged in FAs is LB and their leader was drafted

We need to draft not just the shiny new QB but all over the field. Find a system then get a brilliant GM/scouts on board.

Marv and Dick have started well, and hopefully they've broken Modrak out of previously formed bad habits

FREE AGENTS SHOULD FILL THE GAPS NOT DRAFT PICKS

[patmoran2006]

And for the record, before anyone accuses of me on hating on the Bills.

I"ll buy into development and investment when I FEEL that its worth it.

For Example: The defense. They suck this year. I"m not bothered by it. I LOVE some of the young players Levy drafted onto this team. You could already sense their presence on the field. SImpson and Whitner by year's end will be playing and communicating like solid veterans, you already see it taking shape.. Kyle Williams is getting better every week.. There is a lot of young talent on the unit, so I'll live with them sucking this year.

My ONLY beef with the Bills is with Losman, he plays too important a position to invest anymore time and overall team development in a guy that didnt win in college, isnt winning in the pros, seems to regress immediately after showings of improvement, and demonstrates absolutely ZERO leadership ability.

[patmoran2006]

Its all about quality scouting. The Pats have won 3 of the last 5 SuperBowls (I think) because they have drafted astutely and cleverly and have then decided on their own system and made astute free agents signings to fill the gaps.

I think it is no surprise that considering their team they have drafted their

QB
a key WR (with one for the future coming along)
TE
OL 4 out of 5 draft picks
the K
(oh and the RB of the future was drafted)

the entire DL
3 out of 4 of the DBs


in fact the only area they've plugged in FAs is LB and their leader was drafted

We need to draft not just the shiny new QB but all over the field. Find a system then get a brilliant GM/scouts on board.

Marv and Dick have started well, and hopefully they've broken Modrak out of previously formed bad habits

FREE AGENTS SHOULD FILL THE GAPS NOT DRAFT PICKS

What does this have to do with the thread? I dont recall saying the word "Free agent" one time... While your points are valid, this has ZERO to do with THIS thread.

Levy and Jauron didnt draft Losman anyway.. DOnahoe did.. It's ONLY on marv if he doesnt cut his losses with this loser at season's end and find a quarterback who can turn this team into something respectable.

[kernowboy]

What does this have to do with the thread? I dont recall saying the word "Free agent" one time... While your points are valid, this has ZERO to do with THIS thread.

Levy and Jauron didnt draft Losman anyway.. DOnahoe did.. It's ONLY on marv if he doesnt cut his losses with this loser at season's end and find a quarterback who can turn this team into something respectable.

Err Pat the point I was trying to make was similar to yours.

Poor scouting and player development have led us to Losman. I think both sides of the argument are great but the key point is investment and development have to stop eventually if its not working

And it all begins with poor socuting. I even wonder if the only reason we went after JP was because we knew Green Bay were interested and thought they'r cottoned on to a great idea. If we had stood pat we would have had Matt Schaub in Round 2.

You almost wondered if we were behaving like a naughty kid at school trying to steal somebody elses answers in a test

[patmoran2006]

Err Pat the point I was trying to make was similar to yours.

Poor scouting and player development have led us to Losman. I think both sides of the argument are great but the key point is investment and development have to stop eventually if its not working

And it all begins with poor socuting. I even wonder if the only reason we went after JP was because we knew Green Bay were interested and thought they'r cottoned on to a great idea. If we had stood pat we would have had Matt Schaub in Round 2.

You almost wondered if we were behaving like a naughty kid at school trying to steal somebody elses answers in a test
My bad.
You're right. Bad scouting and development led us to Losman. Fortunately, there is no rule that you have to waste 3-4 years of a team's development by having a bum as your quarterback because another egotistical yet ******ed GM traded up for him.

We could've had this guy or that guy.. YOu're right.. cant change that now. But you can GO FORWARD and a good way to start is by finding a quarterback via FA or the draft who has a clue on how to win and lead a team.

[patmoran2006]

And I dont blame Marv for not cutting Losman this year; he needed to see what direction thsi team needs to go in his first year.

Without question, you can be the house he knows now.. Levy as much as anybody knows the importance of a leader at quarterback.

[Yasgur's Farm]

You know what PM? It comes down to your opinion vs. my opinion. It was that way right out of the gate. It amazed me how much hate JP received on draft day. Maybe it was because of the threat to the "hero drewler".

Bottom line (as evidenced by recent and past polls here and at bb.com) more than 75% of Bills fans agree with my opinion over yours. Hell... even Dick and Marv got JP's back with statements this week. But hey... You're the big time sports writer.

[patmoran2006]

You know what PM? It comes down to your opinion vs. my opinion. It was that way right out of the gate. It amazed me how much hate JP received on draft day. Maybe it was because of the threat to the "hero drewler".

Bottom line (as evidenced by recent and past polls here and at bb.com) more than 75% of Bills fans agree with my opinion over yours. Hell... even Dick and Marv got JP's back with statements this week. But hey... You're the big time sports writer.

1- JP's back is had by Jauron and Levy right now because they don't have another viable option. What are you going to do, start Kelly Holcomb?

2- JP raised a lot of 'hate' on draft day because he was perceived as a cocky kid. Not many will remember, but I'm probably not the only one who watched ESPN leading up to and on draft day regarding this story about this goofy, slang-talking Adam Sandler lookalike from Tulane telling the reporter he thought was better than Manning, RIvers and Roethlisberger.

3- Let me ASSURE you that 75% of the Bills fans do NOT agree with your opinions. 75% agree with your opinion because there is NO other option at quarterback right now with long-term potential.

4- AS for your 75%, would you care to wager on the percentage if you were to take a notebook and a pen, go around the stadium on Sunday mornings or any sports bar, and find out if 75% of our fans DONT think it was a mistake to NOT draft Leinart or Cutler? Again, not opinion, its FACT- like I said, I couldnt believe how many more FLUTIE jerseys than LOSMAN jerseys I see at Bills games, and he's our STARTING quarterback.

5- I never said I was a big-time sportswriter, don't put words in my mouth. My opinion is one, no more important than anyone else.

6- Lastly, the most important fact.. You provided a list, I came back with a list of my own; and its a FACT that Losman currently looks a lot more fitting to be on my list than yours.

[Yasgur's Farm]

How losely you use the word fact.

Oh my... there goes another thanked post... How many have you received?

[patmoran2006]

It is a FACT that 75% of Bills fans will NOT agree with you and don't support Losman......and its a FACT there are a lot more #7 FLutie jerseys floating around the Ralph than #7 Losman's, as trivial as it may sound.

Those are FACTS my friend, not opinions.

[YardRat]

<TABLE cellPadding=5 width="99%" bgColor=white border=1><TBODY><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>90 </CENTER></TD><TD>Andre Ware</TD><TD><CENTER>7 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>DET</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>7 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>-1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>164 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>13 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>90 </CENTER></TD><TD>Jeff George</TD><TD><CENTER>1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>IND</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>8 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>-1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>2152 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>16 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>13 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>139 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>91 </CENTER></TD><TD>Dan McGwire</TD><TD><CENTER>16 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>SEA</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>9 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>-2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>27 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>0 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>-2 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>91 </CENTER></TD><TD>Todd Marinovich</TD><TD><CENTER>24 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>OAK</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>12 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>-3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>243 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>0 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>26 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>92 </CENTER></TD><TD>David Klingler</TD><TD><CENTER>6 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>CIN</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>+2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>530 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>38 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>92 </CENTER></TD><TD>Tommy Maddox</TD><TD><CENTER>25 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>DEN</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>12 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>-4 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>757 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>5 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>9 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>33 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>93 </CENTER></TD><TD>Drew Bledsoe</TD><TD><CENTER>1 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</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>CLE</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>0 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>2447 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>15 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>13 </CENTER></TD><TD bgColor=#33cc33><CENTER>176 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>99 </CENTER></TD><TD>Donovan McNabb</TD><TD><CENTER>2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>PHI</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>+2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>948 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>8 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>7 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>90 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>99 </CENTER></TD><TD>Akili Smith</TD><TD><CENTER>3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>CIN</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>+1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>805 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>6 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>48 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>99 </CENTER></TD><TD>Cade McNown</TD><TD><CENTER>12 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>CHI</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>4 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>+2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>1465 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>8 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>10 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>91 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>99 </CENTER></TD><TD>Daunte Culpepper</TD><TD><CENTER>11 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>MIN</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>15 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>-5 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>0 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>0 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>0 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>0 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>00 </CENTER></TD><TD>Chad Pennington</TD><TD><CENTER>18 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>NYJ</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>8 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>+1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>67 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>0 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>7 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>01 </CENTER></TD><TD>Michael Vick</TD><TD><CENTER>1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>ATL</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>4 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>+3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>1074</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>72</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>02 </CENTER></TD><TD bgColor=#33cc33>David Carr</TD><TD><CENTER>1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>HOU</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>n/a</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>(+4) </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>2871 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>12 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>15 </CENTER></TD><TD bgColor=#33cc33><CENTER>165 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>02 </CENTER></TD><TD>Joey Harrington</TD><TD><CENTER>3 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>DET</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>2 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>+1 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>2298 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>12 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>16 </CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>113 </CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD><CENTER>02 </CENTER></TD><TD>Patrick Ramsey</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Here's a list of first round QB's taken over a ten year period.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Here's a fact for you...

Fact (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=111832)

Can you find a poll supporting your "facts"?

[YardRat]

Here's a list of Super Bowl QB's...

<TABLE width="80%" align=center border=5><TBODY><TR><TH align=middle colSpan=2>Super Bowl</TH><TH colSpan=5>Draft</TH></TR><TR><TH align=middle>Year</TH><TH align=middle>Winner
Loser</TH><TH>Year</TH><TH>Round</TH><TH>Pick</TH><TH>Player</TH><TH>Team</TH></TR><TR><TD>1967</TD><TD>Bart Starr, GB</TD><TD>1956</TD><TD>17</TD><TD> </TD><TD>200</TD><TD>Packers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Len Dawson, KC</TD><TD>1957</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>Steelers</TD></TR><TR><TD>1968</TD><TD>Bart Starr, GB</TD><TD>1956</TD><TD>17</TD><TD> </TD><TD>200</TD><TD>Packers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Daryle Lamonica, OAK</TD><TD>1963</TD><TD>24</TD><TD> </TD><TD>188</TD><TD>Bills</TD></TR><TR><TD>1969</TD><TD>Joe Namath, NYJ</TD><TD>1965</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Jets</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Johnny Unitas, BAL</TD><TD>1955</TD><TD>9</TD><TD> </TD><TD>102</TD><TD>Steelers</TD></TR><TR><TD>1970</TD><TD>Len Dawson, KC</TD><TD>1957</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>Steelers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Joe Kapp, MIN</TD><TD>1959</TD><TD>18</TD><TD> </TD><TD>209</TD><TD>Redskins</TD></TR><TR><TD>1971</TD><TD>Earl Morrall, BAL</TD><TD>1956</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>49ers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Craig Morton, DAL</TD><TD>1965</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>Cowboys</TD></TR><TR><TD>1972</TD><TD>Roger Staubach, DAL</TD><TD>1964</TD><TD>10</TD><TD> </TD><TD>129</TD><TD>Cowboys</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Bob Griese, MIA</TD><TD>1967</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>Dolphins</TD></TR><TR><TD>1973</TD><TD>Bob Griese, MIA</TD><TD>1967</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>Dolphins</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Bill Kilmer, WAS</TD><TD>1961</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>49ers</TD></TR><TR><TD>1974</TD><TD>Bob Griese, MIA</TD><TD>1967</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>Dolphins</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Fran Tarkenton, MIN</TD><TD>1961</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>Vikings</TD></TR><TR><TD>1975</TD><TD>Terry Bradshaw, PIT</TD><TD>1970</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Steelers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Fran Tarkenton, MIN</TD><TD>1961</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>Vikings</TD></TR><TR><TD>1976</TD><TD>Terry Bradshaw, PIT</TD><TD>1970</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Steelers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Roger Staubach, DAL</TD><TD>1964</TD><TD>10</TD><TD> </TD><TD>129</TD><TD>Cowboys</TD></TR><TR><TD>1977</TD><TD>Kenny Stabler, OAK</TD><TD>1968</TD><TD>2</TD><TD> </TD><TD>52</TD><TD>Raiders</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Fran Tarkenton, MIN</TD><TD>1961</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>Vikings</TD></TR><TR><TD>1978</TD><TD>Roger Staubach, DAL</TD><TD>1964</TD><TD>10</TD><TD> </TD><TD>129</TD><TD>Cowboys</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Craig Morton, DEN</TD><TD>1965</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>Cowboys</TD></TR><TR><TD>1979</TD><TD>Terry Bradshaw, PIT</TD><TD>1970</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Steelers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Roger Staubach, DAL</TD><TD>1964</TD><TD>10</TD><TD> </TD><TD>129</TD><TD>Cowboys</TD></TR><TR><TD>1980</TD><TD>Terry Bradwhaw, PIT</TD><TD>1970</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Steelers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Vince Ferragamo, LAR</TD><TD>1977</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>91</TD><TD>Rams</TD></TR><TR><TD>1981</TD><TD>Jim Plunkett, OAK</TD><TD>1971</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Patriots</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Ron Jaworski, PHI</TD><TD>1973</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>37</TD><TD>Rams</TD></TR><TR><TD>1982</TD><TD>Joe Montana, SF</TD><TD>1979</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>49ers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Ken Anderson, CIN</TD><TD>1971</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>67</TD><TD>Bengals</TD></TR><TR><TD>1983</TD><TD>Joe Theismann, WAS</TD><TD>1971</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>99</TD><TD>Dolphins</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>David Woodley, MIA</TD><TD>1980</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>214</TD><TD>Dolphins</TD></TR><TR><TD>1984</TD><TD>Jim Plunkett, LAR</TD><TD>1971</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Patriots</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Joe Theismann, WAS</TD><TD>1971</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>99</TD><TD>Dolphins</TD></TR><TR><TD>1985</TD><TD>Joe Montano, SF</TD><TD>1979</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>49ers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Dan Marino, MIA</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>Dolphins</TD></TR><TR><TD>1986</TD><TD>Jim McMahon, CHI</TD><TD>1982</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>Bears</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Steve Grogan, NE</TD><TD>1975</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>116</TD><TD>Patriots</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Tony Eason, NE 0-6</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>Patriots</TD></TR><TR><TD>1987</TD><TD>Phil Simms, NYG</TD><TD>1979</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>Giants</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>John Elway, DEN</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Colts</TD></TR><TR><TD>1988</TD><TD>Doug Williams, WAS</TD><TD>1978</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>Buccaneers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>John Elway, DEN</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Colts</TD></TR><TR><TD>1989</TD><TD>Joe Montana, SF</TD><TD>1979</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>49ers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Boomer Esiason, CIN</TD><TD>1984</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>38</TD><TD>Bengals</TD></TR><TR><TD>1990</TD><TD>Joe Montana, SF</TD><TD>1979</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>49ers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>John Elway, DEN</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Colts</TD></TR><TR><TD>1991</TD><TD>Jeff Hostetler, NYG</TD><TD>1984</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>59</TD><TD>Giants</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Jim Kelly, BUF</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>Bills</TD></TR><TR><TD>1992</TD><TD>Mark Rypien, WAS</TD><TD>1986</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>146</TD><TD>Redskins</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Jim Kelly, BUF</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>Bills</TD></TR><TR><TD>1993</TD><TD>Troy Aikman, DAL</TD><TD>1989</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Cowboys</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Frank Reich, BUF</TD><TD>1985</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>57</TD><TD>Bills</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Jim Kelly, BUF</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>Bills</TD></TR><TR><TD>1994</TD><TD>Troy Aikman,DAL</TD><TD>1989</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Cowboys</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Jim Kelly, BUF</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>Bills</TD></TR><TR><TD>1995</TD><TD>Steve Young, SF</TD><TD align=middle colSpan=5>undrafted</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Stan Humphreys, SD</TD><TD>1988</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>159</TD><TD>Redskins</TD></TR><TR><TD>1996</TD><TD>Troy Aikman, DAL</TD><TD>1989</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Cowboys</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Neil O'Donnell, PIT</TD><TD>1990</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>Steelers</TD></TR><TR><TD>1997</TD><TD>Brett Favre, GB</TD><TD>1991</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>33</TD><TD>Falcons</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Drew Bledsoe, NE</TD><TD>1993</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Patriots</TD></TR><TR><TD>1998</TD><TD>John Elway, DEN</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Colts</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Brett Favre, GB</TD><TD>1991</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>33</TD><TD>Falcons</TD></TR><TR><TD>1999</TD><TD>John Elway, DEN</TD><TD>1983</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>Colts</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Chris Chandler, ATL</TD><TD>1988</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>76</TD><TD>Colts</TD></TR><TR><TD>2000</TD><TD>Kurt Warner, STL</TD><TD align=middle colSpan=5>undrafted</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Steve McNair, TEN</TD><TD>1995</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>Oilers</TD></TR><TR><TD>2001</TD><TD>Trent Dilfer, BAL</TD><TD>1994</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>Buccaneers</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Kerry Collins, NYG</TD><TD>1995</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>Panthers</TD></TR><TR><TD>2002</TD><TD>Tom Brady, NE</TD><TD>2000</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>33</TD><TD>199</TD><TD>Patriots</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Kurt Warner, STL</TD><TD align=middle colSpan=5>undrafted</TD></TR><TR><TD>2003</TD><TD>Brad Johnson, TB</TD><TD>1992</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>227</TD><TD>Vikings</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Rich Gannon, OAK</TD><TD>1987</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>98</TD><TD>Patriots</TD></TR><TR><TD>2004</TD><TD>Tom Brady, NE</TD><TD>2000</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>33</TD><TD>199</TD><TD>Patriots</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>Jake Delhomme, CAR</TD><TD align=middle colSpan=5>undrafted</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[patmoran2006]

Yard:

Thanks for the info.. Are you trying to make a point, or are you just putting up graphics for us to see (which is cool by the way)

[Yasgur's Farm]

Could it be? Nah. Facts?
It's true... 54 of 78 SB QB'S were day 1 draft picks.
It's true... 37 of them were 1st rounders.

By golly... I guess it's fact that 1st rounders (not to mention 1st day picks) have a far better chance of success than any other chosen round QB!

I wonder... how many of them actually needed a chance to develop?

[patmoran2006]

Could it be? Nah. Facts?
It's true... 54 of 78 SB QB'S were day 1 draft picks.
It's true... 37 of them were 1st rounders.

By golly... I guess it's fact that 1st rounders (not to mention 1st day picks) have a far better chance of success than any other chosen round QB!

I wonder... how many of them actually needed a chance to develop?
Once again, your ignorance on this subject is shining through. YOu only read what you WANT to read..

You're 100% right.. Its a FACT That 1st rounders have a far better chance of success than other chosen round QB.

Here's another FACT.. These were ALL FIRST ROUND DRAFT choices too.. Read this.. again

Kyle Boller
Joey Harrington
Patrick Ramsey
Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Ryan Leaf
Jim Druckenmiller
Heath Shuler
Rick Mirer
Tommy Maddox
David Klinger
Todd Maranovich
Dan McGwire
Andre Ware

[patmoran2006]

My point to begin with is Losman is a lot CLOSER to these bums than the ridiculous list you came up with..

So in MY OPINION, its time at season's end to rid ourselves of our own Kyle Boller and go get us the next Farve, Manning, etc in someone like Brady Quinn or Troy Smith, proven WINNERS in college who have F'n LEADERSHIP abilities.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Here's a fact you may not want to see...

Len Dawson
Joe Namath
Earl Morrall
Craig Morton
Roger Staubach
Bob Griese
Bill Kilmer
Terry Bradshaw
Jim Plunkett
Dan Marino
Jim McMahon
Tony Eason
Phil Simms
John Elway
Doug Williams
Jim Kelly
Troy Aikman
Drew Bledsoe
Steve McNair
Trent Dilfer
Kerry Collins

9 of these 1st round QB's were drafted by teams other than the one they took to the SB.

Can you figure out which teams screwed up by not developing their investment?

[patmoran2006]

Here's a fact you may not want to see...

Len Dawson
Joe Namath
Earl Morrall
Craig Morton
Roger Staubach
Bob Griese
Bill Kilmer
Terry Bradshaw
Jim Plunkett
Dan Marino
Jim McMahon
Tony Eason
Phil Simms
John Elway
Doug Williams
Jim Kelly
Troy Aikman
Drew Bledsoe
Steve McNair
Trent Dilfer
Kerry Collins

9 of these 1st round QB's were drafted by teams other than the one they took to the SB.

Can you figure out which teams screwed up by not developing their investment?

Once AGAINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
You're comparing JP Losman to a list of WINNERS!!!!

****, if thats the case.. How about I draw you up a list of GREAT former first round RUNNING BACKS and we can proclaim Willis McGahee a legend RIGHT NOW because he was a first rounder.

Losman being TRADED UP for in the first round is indicitive of how STUPID a GM Tom Donahoe was and how badly he MANGLED this franchise.

You're being BEYOND RIDICULOUS to even begin to put Losman in the same breathe as ANY of those quarterbacks you mentioned. FOr the 20th time, he's A HELL Of a lot closer to my list of first round jerkoffs who set their teams back for years......

Losman has ONE thing and ONE thing only in common with your list.. The teams sucked early in their careers.. Thats where the comparisons need to END.

[patmoran2006]

Here's a fact for you...

Fact (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=111832)

Can you find a poll supporting your "facts"?
Here's another fact.

Kyle Boller
Joey Harrington
Patrick Ramsey
Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Ryan Leaf
Jim Druckenmiller
Heath Shuler
Rick Mirer
Tommy Maddox
David Klinger
Todd Maranovich
Dan McGwire
Andre Ware
How many of these teams have even sniffed a Super Bowl with these drafted these bums in the first round in those respective years? You could tell me the answer whenever you want..

Are you catching my drift? "Investing and developing" a player when he's simply NOT a winner, sets your franchise back a lot more than cutting your lost and letting the bum go and finding a better quarterback.

For every Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman, there are four Kyle Bollers.. JP Losman my friend, is a lot closer to Boller than Aikman.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Here's where you continue to be VERY narrow minded... The majority of these SB QB's listed had as bad or worse 1st 15 games than JP. That's a FACT!

Yet you think that comparing the young years of JP to the super bowl years of say Troy Aikman is more accurate than measuring their COMPARATIVE years.

That's like saying that Troy Aikman was a bust because his 1st 3 years didn't equate to the super bowl years of John Elway.

Who's being "ridiculous" here?

[patmoran2006]

YOu look 100% at RECORDS and STATS and I dont..

Its not that Losman's losing.. thats to be expected.. this team SUCKS..

The difference between Losman and ANY of the names you named, is that despite those teams loser records, it was apparent EARLY that those guys were part of the SOLUTION.. It didnt take a brain surgeon to figure out when the Colts were 3-13 that Manning had the ability and leadership to turn the franchise around, same with Aikman and his 1-15 Cowboys.

JP is a big part of the PROBLEM.. And he has zero leadership skills, he barely has the respect of his own teammates and he has NONE of the intangibles the players you mentioned had.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Again... It comes full circle... Comes down to your opinion vs. mine.

Good discussion. I hope we can have many more without the insults.

[jmb1099]

And for the record, before anyone accuses of me on hating on the Bills.

I"ll buy into development and investment when I FEEL that its worth it.

For Example: The defense. They suck this year. I"m not bothered by it. I LOVE some of the young players Levy drafted onto this team. You could already sense their presence on the field. SImpson and Whitner by year's end will be playing and communicating like solid veterans, you already see it taking shape.. Kyle Williams is getting better every week.. There is a lot of young talent on the unit, so I'll live with them sucking this year.

My ONLY beef with the Bills is with Losman, he plays too important a position to invest anymore time and overall team development in a guy that didnt win in college, isnt winning in the pros, seems to regress immediately after showings of improvement, and demonstrates absolutely ZERO leadership ability.
No disrespect intended, but just because you "feel" like buying into development or not doesn't change the fact that is exactly what is going on. Some investments pay off, some don't. I get the point of you countering Draz's list with your own, but I hope that the one thing that should be becomeing obvious to everyone, especially since these "lists" keep making the rounds on the Zone, is that the issue of Losman is a two sided coin. He could very well be another name added to your list, but he could also very well be added to Draz's list. Only time will tell.

[patmoran2006]

JP is developing at a rate indicative of a late 1st round pick. If you all can't see that then I'm sorry.

There is an investment to be paid... The Bills have invested time into JP and it's obvious that he's shown enough growth to warrant a deeper investment. (See recent endorsements of Marv and D ick).

Bret Favre
Terry Bradshaw
John Elway
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Drew Bledsoe
Donovan McNabb
David Carr
Troy Aikman
Jake Delhomme
Matt Hasselback

These are just a few of the QB's some of you jammokes would have run outta town before they developed.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.
Since you're so hard up for "facts", here are some "facts" to show how ****ty of a post this was.

You are willing to put Losman in the same group as these guys.. Well, lets see.

For starters, you can take Hasselbeck, Delhomme and Brees off your list, since none of them are first round picks. I mean, this is about "time and investment" for a first rounder, no?

Since Bret Farve (9-7), John Elway (9-7), Eli Manning (11-5) and Donavan McNab (11-5) ALL led their team to WINNING records their FIRST year as starters, you should scratch them from your list as well otherwise it makes you look worse.. they were winners OFF The bat and contradicts your theory... Carson Palmer went 8-8 his first year, he should be gone too.

Drew Bledsoe only went 5-11 as a rookie starter, but led New England to a 10-6 record his second season... NOt seeing that from Losman.

Troy Aiman went just 1-15 his first year as a starter, but by just his second season he improved to 7-9. Surely, a 1-15 team cant get THAT much better in ONE season right? (Or could it actually be about the quarterback, hmmmm?)

Peyton Manning was a sad 3-13 in his first year, but by just his SECOND season as a starter he improved to a ridicuous 13-3. Hmmm, you think a winning QB had something to do with a 10-game turnaround?

DAvid Carr? He's on your list for real? Ok, I'll buy that.. Maybe because he's 22-54 as a starter.. You can have that comparison, Losman is on the right track there. Why Carr is on your list is beyond me.

That brings your "list" down to Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw went 5-9 as a first year starter and 6-8 record his second year, just 'modest' improvement. It took him two more years to become a "winner".

So if you want to compare JP Losman to Terry Bradshaw, then you go ahead and do that. If not, you're list is entirely inaccurate, not indicitive WHAT-SO-EVER to the path Losman is on, and even though you're obviously a knowledgeable guy, this thread was really stupid.

[patmoran2006]

No disrespect intended, but just because you "feel" like buying into development or not doesn't change the fact that is exactly what is going on. Some investments pay off, some don't. I get the point of you countering Draz's list with your own, but I hope that the one thing that should be becomeing obvious to everyone, especially since these "lists" keep making the rounds on the Zone, is that the issue of Losman is a two sided coin. He could very well be another name added to your list, but he could also very well be added to Draz's list. Only time will tell.

Good point.. You are right, it IS a matter of opinion right now.

My main point was his list was ENTIRELY INNACURATE, and my last post before this is PROOF of it. He used comparisons of players that in no way, shape or form have anything to do with Losman.. THe facts speak for themselves.

I like Draz, I like reading his posts, i just hated this one.

[PECKERWOOD]

Draz, part of using stats to prove a point is by showing both sides of the story. That was the most biased use of stats I've ever seen in my life. You talk about the successful first rounders and failed to mention one bust. I'm sorry thats ridiculous, you wont fool me with that crap.

[YardRat]

Yard:

Thanks for the info.. Are you trying to make a point, or are you just putting up graphics for us to see (which is cool by the way)

I found it interesting, off the top off my head, that....

Four out of the 25 QB's drafted over the 10 year period in the first chart became what I would consider a franchise player. 21 weren't or aren't yet.

As for the second chart, over the last 10 years, (or more accurately, from 1995 thru 2004) an undrafted QB (Young, Warner) was almost as likely to play QB for a Super Bowl winner as a first-rounder (Aikman, Elway, Dilfer).

[jmb1099]

Good point.. You are right, it IS a matter of opinion right now.

My main point was his list was ENTIRELY INNACURATE, and my last post before this is PROOF of it. He used comparisons of players that in no way, shape or form have anything to do with Losman.. THe facts speak for themselves.

I like Draz, I like reading his posts, i just hated this one.
I'm not convinced either list is accurate right now. Obviously the Losman issue is a hot one and people are going to continue to spin the forecasted outcome in a way that is most suitable to their opinion. The only thing that is preventing me from wirting Losman off at the moment is his lack of blindside protection. I've played a little qb and there is no worse feeling in the world than worrying about your blindside. It disrupts everything, it ruins your concentration, it is a game changer. I hope Peters provides solid protection for Losman because is he does and Losman doesn't start to settle down and improve (and it will take a game or two to get used to having protection) than its a lost cause. Now for those wondering what I mean by improve...no stupid fumbles. I don't care if he holds the ball a little longer than some qb's, I don't care if he tosses a int every now and again. No stupid fumbles. He's already improved his completion ptc. No fumbles, toss a td or two, win a few games. Lets see how it goes with peters.

[xXSpIkes5IXx]

I know this is a heated argument, but when you look at the big picture, this franchise drafted a QB in the 1st round. That is a HUGE investment. Im afraid JP will end up a bust, who knows he still may end up as a good QB, but we invested alot in him when we drafted him and we need to play him, simple as that.

You cant just give up on your "franchise Qb" that you gave a 1st a 2nd and a 5th rounder for after 15 starts, you have to play him, because you invested so much in him. I pray for the sake of the bills that he gets it together, but i dont think management can give up on him just yet.

We took a huge gamble on JP Losman, if it dosent pay off, we are screwed, if it does well then we are well on our way, but we have to give him more than what many people on this board want us to. Like it or not

And i really hope he isnt the next Kyle Boller

[patmoran2006]

I know this is a heated argument, but when you look at the big picture, this franchise drafted a QB in the 1st round. That is a HUGE investment. Im afraid JP will end up a bust, who knows he still may end up as a good QB, but we invested alot in him when we drafted him and we need to play him, simple as that.

You cant just give up on your "franchise Qb" that you gave a 1st a 2nd and a 5th rounder for after 15 starts, you have to play him, because you invested so much in him. I pray for the sake of the bills that he gets it together, but i dont think management can give up on him just yet.

We took a huge gamble on JP Losman, if it dosent pay off, we are screwed, if it does well then we are well on our way, but we have to give him more than what many people on this board want us to. Like it or not

And i really hope he isnt the next Kyle Boller
1- Good post.

2- He's done nothing to show he's a franchise QB in any kind of way at all.

3- Donahoe took a huge gamble on Losman. that's a big reason why Donahoe doesnt have a job. Levy would be taking a BIGGER gamble by staying long-term with DONAHOE"s guy than if he went out and got his own.

4- WE did give up a lot for Losman, and that really sucks.. Did you know Schaub was in that draft and we could've had him for free in the third round? Did you know with that 1st rounder we gave Dallas in 2005 we could've had Shawn Merriman? Or DeMarcus Ware? Or Jamaal Brown? That's really sickening.I F'n hate Donahoe.

5- Let Losman play the season out.. Its VERY simple. If he improves DRAMATICALLY before the end of the season, not just in wins but in showing the ability to lead his team, then you keep him and see if it progresses. If he doesnt, get rid of his ass and dont set your franchise back even LONGER because of a former GM's stupid mistake on drafting him in the first place.

[PECKERWOOD]

Could you get off this Schaub bandwagon Pat? What has Schaub done to prove himself? I will take JP over him any day.

[patmoran2006]

I'm not on a Schaub bandwagon, dont get off topic.
My point was we could've had him, NOT given up any picks, and ALSO had the 11th pick in the 2005..

Drafting Losman was dumb enough, giving up a Top 12 pick for him the following year just compounds it..

I'd rather have Alex Van Pelt or Travis Brown quarterbacking then give up a Top 12 pick for a clueless QB with a 3-12/13/whatever record.

[PECKERWOOD]

I'm not on a Schaub bandwagon, dont get off topic.
My point was we could've had him, NOT given up any picks, and ALSO had the 11th pick in the 2005..

Drafting Losman was dumb enough, giving up a Top 12 pick for him the following year just compounds it..

I'd rather have Alex Van Pelt or Travis Brown quarterbacking then give up a Top 12 pick for a clueless QB with a 3-12/13/whatever record.
While I agree that drafting is important. You point out Schaub like he has actually done something, he hasnt done **** as far as Im concerned. And thats staying on topic, you mentioned his name, not me. It was obviously a bad idea to draft Losman now that I reminisce. We should of waited a year to draft a QB, and gave Bledsoe another year to play.

[patmoran2006]

It was a bad idea to draft all of these guys too in the first round.
Kyle Boller
Joey Harrington
Patrick Ramsey
Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Ryan Leaf
Jim Druckenmiller
Heath Shuler
Rick Mirer
Tommy Maddox
David Klinger
Todd Maranovich
Dan McGwire
Andre Ware
Point being, the sooner you cut your losses and go out and upgrade at Quarterback, the better the football will be in the years to come.. Giving a guy 3-4 years to develop because he was a first rounder is ******ed, ESPECIALLY when it wasn't even Levy or Jauron who took him

[kernowboy]

While I agree that drafting is important. You point out Schaub like he has actually done something, he hasnt done **** as far as Im concerned. And thats staying on topic, you mentioned his name, not me. It was obviously a bad idea to draft Losman now that I reminisce. We should of waited a year to draft a QB, and gave Bledsoe another year to play.

The thing is by moving up for Losman not only did we give up the No11 in 2005 but we gave up the Round 2 pick. This meant we missed Randy Starks and picked Tim Anderson instead. If we had grabbed Starks the Anderson pick could have gone on Schaub.

My question is, we all know Starks was rated much higher than Anderson, but how much below Losman was Schaub rated?

I agree there is no guarantee that Schaub would have been better than Losman but I think we can certainly say that Starks would've been a much better DT than Anderson and if we had picked Schaub as the QB, well we could have drafted Brown or Barron to protect him or picked Ware or Merriman to get him back on the field more quickly

A DL of Merriman-Starks-Williams/McCargo-Schobel is a lot better than what we currently have.

[Typ0]

Could it be? Nah. Facts?
It's true... 54 of 78 SB QB'S were day 1 draft picks.
It's true... 37 of them were 1st rounders.

By golly... I guess it's fact that 1st rounders (not to mention 1st day picks) have a far better chance of success than any other chosen round QB!

I wonder... how many of them actually needed a chance to develop?


actually, that is not what your stats are telling you. You don't know anything about the predictive chance of a first rounder to get to the SB until you learn how many QBs were taken in the first round. The way you are looking at your numbers here and trying to make an arguement is twisted. Beauty school droopout...go back to high school.

[Jan Reimers]

Good posts, draz. There are obviously young, highly drafted QBs who have gone both ways - some developed into good or great QBs, while others didn't. But your point - that it took most of the good ones 2 or 3 or 4 years to develop - is valid. And while JP is showing signs of improvement at this point, most of the busts were not.

Like you, I see JP getting better, but I do sometimes wonder if he'll ever totally grasp the mental side of the position. But I think he's improving, and want to give him at least the rest of the season to prove it. His detractors, of course won't give him credit for anything.

In fact, they've already set him up for the Green Bay game. I've read posts that say JP SHOULD have a big day against their defense. So if he does, it will be, "So what?" And if he doesn't, it will be, "See, he even sucks against a bad defense."

I think the irrational JP haters want him to fail more than they want to see the Bills succeed with him at QB. And I don't understand that.

[Jan Reimers]

The thing is by moving up for Losman not only did we give up the No11 in 2005 but we gave up the Round 2 pick. This meant we missed Randy Starks and picked Tim Anderson instead. If we had grabbed Starks the Anderson pick could have gone on Schaub.

My question is, we all know Starks was rated much higher than Anderson, but how much below Losman was Schaub rated?

I agree there is no guarantee that Schaub would have been better than Losman but I think we can certainly say that Starks would've been a much better DT than Anderson and if we had picked Schaub as the QB, well we could have drafted Brown or Barron to protect him or picked Ware or Merriman to get him back on the field more quickly

A DL of Merriman-Starks-Williams/McCargo-Schobel is a lot better than what we currently have.
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, oh what a Christmas there'd be. And what has Matt Schaub ever done to show that he could be a starting QB in this league?

[Historian]

Interesting list...

Len Dawson -Steelers, Chiefs
Joe Namath -Jets
Earl Morrall-Colts, Fish
Craig Morton-Cowboys, Broncos
Roger Staubach-Cowboys
Bob Griese-Fish
Bill Kilmer- 49ers, Redskins
Terry Bradshaw-Steelers
Jim Plunkett-Patriots, Raiders
Dan Marino-Fish
Jim McMahon-Bears
Tony Eason-Patriots
Phil Simms-Giants
John Elway-Colts, Broncos
Doug Williams-Buccaneers, Redskins
Jim Kelly-Bills
Troy Aikman-Cowboys
Drew Bledsoe-Patriots
Steve McNair-Oilers/Titans
Trent Dilfer-Buccaneers, Ravens
Kerry Collins-Panthers, Giants




Can you figure out which teams screwed up by not developing their investment?

Do I win a prize or something?

(j/k)

Just in case anyone needed clarification.

But you forgot the most important one to make your argument:

Daryle Lamonica -Bills, Raiders

Or the one team that figured out it's mistake:

Fran Tarkinton-Vikings, Giants, Vikings.



;)

[kernowboy]

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, oh what a Christmas there'd be. And what has Matt Schaub ever done to show that he could be a starting QB in this league?

Oh I agree, but equally it is always dangerous to give up picks.

I do agree that Losman was a Round 1 pick

However he was not worth a Round 1 + a Round 2 + a Round 5, plus a Round 1 the following year.

Those picks could have been Randy Starks in R2, Michael Turner or Mike Karney in R5 and in 2005 could have been Merriman or Ware, Brown or Barron

Starks is a better DT than what we have on the roster
Karney is a definite upgrade over Shelton
Turner might have allowed McGahee to be dispensible especially as he wants to leave anyway
Either of the DEs or OTs would have upgraded the lines

and we could still have drafted Schaub in R3 of the 2004 draft instead of Tim Anderson who has been a bit of a bust.

Schaub has only started 2 games but in many ways has performed ok when replacing Vick. I wonder what he could have achieved if we had taken him and he'd been allowed to replace Bledsoe at the start of 2005.

Whilst our QB situation might not have been better, both the DL and maybe the OL as well would have been.

Losman I think can still be a good to great QB in this league. However the cost to acquire him was far too great.

[Historian]

How about the AFL Championship Game:

George Blanda -Bears, Oilers
Jack Kemp -Steelers, Chargers
Len Dawson -Steelers, Texans, Chiefs
Babe Parilli -Packers, Patriots
Jack Kemp -Steelers, Chargers, Bills
Tobin Rote -Packers, Chargers

[Yasgur's Farm]

Oh I agree, but equally it is always dangerous to give up picks.

I do agree that Losman was a Round 1 pick

However he was not worth a Round 1 + a Round 2 + a Round 5, plus a Round 1 the following year.Let's keep the exaggerations to a minimum please... It's been a ploy of JP bashers since day 1...
2004 1st rounder - Lee Evans
2004 2nd rounder - JP Losman
2004 5th rounder - JP Losman
2005 1st rounder - JP Losman

Funny thing is that JP bashers provide obviously slanted (if not doctored) evidence as their justification. But when a JP supporter does the same... Oh the indignity. Kinda sounds like a Liberal vs Conservative thing.

[Historian]

And just to clarify, Earl Morrall was on that 1957 Steelers team with Len Dawson and Jack Kemp.

Talk about a set of quarterbacks!

Most people remember him as Unitas' backup though.

[Yasgur's Farm]

How about the AFL Championship Game:

George Blanda -Bears, Oilers
Jack Kemp -Steelers, Chargers
Len Dawson -Steelers, Texans, Chiefs
Babe Parilli -Packers, Patriots
Jack Kemp -Steelers, Chargers, Bills
Tobin Rote -Packers, ChargersTo be fair, we can't count the majority of picks from the pre-merger days... As teams from the AFL were selecting players that were also drafted by NFL teams.

[kernowboy]

Let's keep the exaggerations to a minimum please... It's been a ploy of JP bashers since day 1...
2004 1st rounder - Lee Evans
2004 2nd rounder - JP Losman
2004 5th rounder - JP Losman
2005 1st rounder - JP Losman

Funny thing is that JP bashers provide obviously slanted (if not doctored) evidence as their justification. But when a JP supporter does the same... Oh the indignity. Kinda sounds like a Liberal vs Conservative thing.

But if we look at it like this

2004 1st rounder - Lee Evans
2004 2nd rounder - Randy Starks - a starting DT better than Anderson
3rd rounder instead of Anderson it could have been Matt Schaub
2004 5th rounder - Mike Karney FB an upgrade over Shelton
2005 Ist rounder - it could have been Merriman or Ware, Brown or Barron

Whilst I am not a JP hater, it is open to question whether Schaub would have done equally as well

Certainly the addition of Starks and Karney, and then either one of the DEs or one of the OTs would have made the current Bills team ..... BETTER !!!

[Yasgur's Farm]

But if we look at it like this

2004 1st rounder - Lee Evans
2004 2nd rounder - Randy Starks - a starting DT better than Anderson
3rd rounder instead of Anderson it could have been Matt Schaub
2004 5th rounder - Mike Karney FB an upgrade over Shelton
2005 Ist rounder - it could have been Merriman or Ware, Brown or Barron

Whilst I am not a JP hater, it is open to question whether Schaub would have done equally as well

Certainly the addition of Starks and Karney, and then either one of the DEs or one of the OTs would have made the current Bills team ..... BETTER !!!That evaluation can't be made for a couple more years. That's the deal with any players you draft.

Have a look at Nate Clements... He had a couple seasons where it looked like he ruled the defensive backfield... Now he simply looks like an ordinary CB getting paid over $7M.

How about McGee... He had 2 decent seasons for a 4th rounder. Is anyone ready to give up on him yet for having a sub-par 2006?

[Historian]

To be fair, we can't count the majority of picks from the pre-merger days... As teams from the AFL were selecting players that were also drafted by NFL teams.

Sure...go and spoil all my fun.

[kernowboy]

That evaluation can't be made for a couple more years. That's the deal with any players you draft.

Have a look at Nate Clements... He had a couple seasons where it looked like he ruled the defensive backfield... Now he simply looks like an ordinary CB getting paid over $7M.

How about McGee... He had a 2 decent seasons for a 4th rounder. Is anyone ready to give up on him yet for having a sub-par 2006?

Well Randy Starks was considered a top DT coming out as a junior who was slipping in the draft. He must have had something to be considered a top DT
If I recall, Schaub was regarded as a good prospect if not in the same high echelon as the first 4.
Karney was well regarded as a FB

Also when considering a draft, surely scouts look at juniors and sophmores who might come out in subsequent drafts

If we had properly scouted Starks, we would have observed Merriman

In Starks last seasons at Maryland his stats were
2001 G 11 GS 1 tackles 35 assts 11 sacks 4
2002 14 14 93 44 7
2003 13 13 73 35 8
Anderson was no where close

We'd have also seen Meeriman having a 9 sack season

But we gave up the No2 2004 so couldn't take Starks and the No1 2005 so couldn't take Merriman

[BidsJr]

Good posts, draz. There are obviously young, highly drafted QBs who have gone both ways - some developed into good or great QBs, while others didn't. But your point - that it took most of the good ones 2 or 3 or 4 years to develop - is valid. And while JP is showing signs of improvement at this point, most of the busts were not.

Like you, I see JP getting better, but I do sometimes wonder if he'll ever totally grasp the mental side of the position. But I think he's improving, and want to give him at least the rest of the season to prove it. His detractors, of course won't give him credit for anything.

In fact, they've already set him up for the Green Bay game. I've read posts that say JP SHOULD have a big day against their defense. So if he does, it will be, "So what?" And if he doesn't, it will be, "See, he even sucks against a bad defense."

I think the irrational JP haters want him to fail more than they want to see the Bills succeed with him at QB. And I don't understand that.


This right here is where it is at.

Pat just wants to make himself look smart while beating everyone down in the process.

The really sad thing is. If he were as smart as he thought he was people would naturally gravitate to his wisdom.

Instead, sadly, the beat down ensues, attempting to discredit and create an intelligence gap that doesn't exist.

Bottom line is we are in the middle of the evaluation process. 9 more games of watching JP isn't going to hurt anything, except our draft position if he were to improve.

After the 9 games, if he hasn't made a pretty big jump, most everyone will agree that it is time to move on.

[kernowboy]

This right here is where it is at.

Pat just wants to make himself look smart while beating everyone down in the process.

The really sad thing is. If he were as smart as he thought he was people would naturally gravitate to his wisdom.

Instead, sadly, the beat down ensues, attempting to discredit and create an intelligence gap that doesn't exist.

Bottom line is we are in the middle of the evaluation process. 9 more games of watching JP isn't going to hurt anything, except our draft position if he were to improve.

After the 9 games, if he hasn't made a pretty big jump, most everyone will agree that it is time to move on.

I've just added a new thread based on an article I have read. It certainly makes very interesting reading. Enjoy.

[BidsJr]

Also no one really knows what will happen with JP, as it could go either way.

Drew Brees looked totally lost for the Chargers and now he is a star. Frankly this situation with JP is setting up nearly identically with the Brees situation.

Team has been horrible for too long.
Team gives up on QB.
Team drafts new QB.
Losman starts to give new QB year to learn.
Then Losman gets it or he does not.

Who really knows? (Sorry Pat, you don't)


Why can't we go back to talking about Bills football minus the Prophets?

[patmoran2006]

This right here is where it is at.

Pat just wants to make himself look smart while beating everyone down in the process.

The really sad thing is. If he were as smart as he thought he was people would naturally gravitate to his wisdom.

Instead, sadly, the beat down ensues, attempting to discredit and create an intelligence gap that doesn't exist.

Bottom line is we are in the middle of the evaluation process. 9 more games of watching JP isn't going to hurt anything, except our draft position if he were to improve.

After the 9 games, if he hasn't made a pretty big jump, most everyone will agree that it is time to move on.
Would I be better off trying to make myself look stupid?
I"m not trying to beat anyone down, Draz made this HUGE list and tried to use it as a basis for JP Losman and I went ONE by ONE on EVERYNAME and showed him that his comparisons were entirely off base, and I'm talking second-year starters.

Unless we have the next Terry Bradshaw on our hands, that entire list was crap and nothign more than yet ANOTHER Losman excuse.

[kernowboy]

Would I be better off trying to make myself look stupid?
I"m not trying to beat anyone down, Draz made this HUGE list and tried to use it as a basis for JP Losman and I went ONE by ONE on EVERYNAME and showed him that his comparisons were entirely off base, and I'm talking second-year starters.

Unless we have the next Terry Bradshaw on our hands, that entire list was crap and nothign more than yet ANOTHER Losman excuse.

Pat, I totally agree with you, what is BidsJr talking about?

The whole topic of the thread is 'Investment and Development'

The statement has to be made that unless JP turns into another Elway, Aikman or Peyton Manning, his investment in terms of sacrificed draft picks was EXCESSIVE

We gave up a 2nd rounder, a fifth rounder, and then a 1st rounder the following year.

With the 2nd rounder we could have drafted Randy Starks who I think all would agree is a much better player than Tim Anderson.
If we had picked Starks we could have picked Schaub instead of Anderson, giving us a QB of the future.

Schaub may have only have got to JP's current level and was not as highly regard but he was not a 1st,2nd and 5th round picks worse.

Hell even with the 5th rounder we gave up we could have had Mike Karney who is a better FB than Shelton

With the lost 1st rounder of 2005 we could have had Merriman or Ware, Barron or Brown.

The thread is about investment first, development second. We did not properly invest. To those of you arguing against Pat, what would you prefer

JP Losman and Tim Anderson

or

Matt Schaub, Randy Starks, Mike Karney and Shawn Merriman?

This article sums up the investment problem

http://www.afceastreport.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=162&mode=flat&order=0&thold=-1

[Yasgur's Farm]

So let's say (for the sake of argument) you paid too much for a car... Would you give it to the kidney foundation because it's only worth $10,000 instead of the $20,000 you paid?

You're stuck on the water under the bridge. My reference at this point concerns investment of time (opposed to $'s or draft picks).

BTW... Where was the statement made that JP has to have the same outcome as Elway/Aikman/Manning in order for the investment to be worthy?

Furthermore... JP 1st 15 game start comparisons to that of the QB's I listed ARE accurate in spite of what others may say.

[kernowboy]

So let's say (for the sake of argument) you paid too much for a car... Would you give it to the kidney foundation because it's only worth $10,000 instead of the $20,000 you paid?

You're stuck on the water under the bridge. My reference at this point concerns investment of time (opposed to $'s or draft picks).

BTW... Where was the statement made that JP has to have the same outcome as Elway/Aikman/Manning in order for the investment to be worthy?

Furthermore... JP 1st 15 game start comparisons to that of the QB's I listed ARE accurate in spite of what others may say.

Draz .. the point I made was we should never have made such an initial investment. Yes if you have a R2 and want to get into R1, you might want to give up a R3 as well. You certainly don't overpay by giving up another R1 the following year. We gave up 3 draft picks which have produced 3 productive players (Randy Starks, Mike Karney, Shawn Merriman). Additionally, we then pushed ourselves into the position of drafting a lower ranked DT (Tim Anderson), and not drafting a QB (Matt Schaub) who could be as equally as productive as JP.

I personally think that JP, has been hard done by, he's been treated badly in his first two years, but part of that bad treatment was because of excessive expectations. And those excessive expectations were fuelled by seeing what the players we could have drafted have achieved.

JP will always been playing against what he will achieve, but also the achievements of those we could have drafted instead. If Schaub goes to a new team, starts and has similar stats to JP, again there will be screams of anguish from those who will measure him by what we lost not by what he achieves.

My point about the 3 QBs I listed were that they were all sure fire things. You knew even if the start was rocky, they'd quickly come good. JP had a bigger risk factor on him so the initially investment always has to be measured by what it costs to acquire him.

Everyone is drooling over Calvin Johnson and rightly so. But maybe if we had gone another way in 2004, his selection in 2007 might make more sense.

[YardRat]

Len Dawson -Steelers, Chiefs
Earl Morrall-Colts, Fish
Craig Morton-Cowboys, Broncos
Bill Kilmer- 49ers, Redskins
Jim Plunkett-Patriots, Raiders
John Elway-Colts, Broncos
Doug Williams-Buccaneers, Redskins
Trent Dilfer-Buccaneers, Ravens
Kerry Collins-Panthers, Giants


Dawson jumped leagues.
Morrall was already established and followed Shula to Miami.
Morton was replaced by a better QB.
Plunkett, Williams, Dilfer and Collins were the beneficiaries of complete teams.
Elway never suited up for the Colts, and even he didn't win the big one until Shanahan brought in a player more valuable to the team.



Can you figure out which teams screwed up by not developing their investment?


The question could be which teams over the years screwed up their team development by wasting a draft pick on a QB in the first round when they could've gone out and acquired another team's back-up that has already been developing for three or four years and instead used the #1 on another position?

Here's an interesting link...

http://www.drafthistory.com/positions/qb.html

Go through the entire first round and and add up the booms versus busts, and only count the 'booms' if it happened with the original team they were drafted by.

[kernowboy]

Dawson jumped leagues.
Morrall was already established and followed Shula to Miami.
Morton was replaced by a better QB.
Plunkett, Williams, Dilfer and Collins were the beneficiaries of complete teams.
Elway never suited up for the Colts, and even he didn't win the big one until Shanahan brought in a player more valuable to the team.



The question could be which teams over the years screwed up their team development by wasting a draft pick on a QB in the first round when they could've gone out and acquired another team's back-up that has already been developing for three or four years and instead used the #1 on another position?

Here's an interesting link...

http://www.drafthistory.com/positions/qb.html

Go through the entire first round and and add up the booms versus busts, and only count the 'booms' if it happened with the original team they were drafted by.



I think it comes down to the fact, that while you must properly develop your investment, you must not overpay for that initial investment.

[Yasgur's Farm]

You know what? You'll never get it will you? You're just gonna keep pissin and moanin about ***** that can't be changed instead of losing the resentment and rooting for what we have...

That's an absolutely crappy way to go through life. See ya!!

[PECKERWOOD]

I think were all rooting for Losman, but to say you have no doubts about the guy, your beyond optimism and nearing the brink of stupidity.

[YardRat]

You know what? You'll never get it will you? You're just gonna keep pissin and moanin about ***** that can't be changed instead of losing the resentment and rooting for what we have...

That's an absolutely crappy way to go through life. See ya!!

It can be changed, if JP steps up to the plate or someone better takes the job. That's the point.

There is no resentment, only disappointment, and I would wager there isn't a person on this board (pro-JP or not) that doesn't root for the team we have every time they line up.

[kernowboy]

You know what? You'll never get it will you? You're just gonna keep pissin and moanin about ***** that can't be changed instead of losing the resentment and rooting for what we have...

That's an absolutely crappy way to go through life. See ya!!

I was actually making a logical statement, in that, in the future, if we make a similar move, the poor kid will have to be superb from day1 because he will be measured against his own performance but also against what we give up to select him. It is an unfortunate fact of life.

I personally hope JP succeeds as it means a pick for a QB replacement can be spent elsewhere

it is called History ..... you consider the past and the decisions that were made then, so that if any errors occured, if too much might have been given up, then you do not repeat those mistakes in the future.

I am not pissin and moaning about the decision we made. I am observing the consequences of that decision, the impact it had on future decisions and the potential result it has led to

Only those who wear frizzy wigs, face paint, bright big red noses and massively oversized shoes don't do so.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Nice try at the wiggle... Still sounds like a load of crap to me.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I think were all rooting for Losman, but to say you have no doubts about the guy, your beyond optimism and nearing the brink of stupidity.Who said no doubts?

[kernowboy]

Nice try at the wiggle... Still sounds like a load of crap to me.

Where is the wiggle?

If you trade up for a player and then give up a load of picks to do so, picks who turn around to be decent/excellent players then the next time such an opportunity arises, I don't want the management to blindly leap forward .... I want them to think was the trade up for Losman, even if he becomes a good player actually worth it? By considering the history

(by the way I'm a researcher that looks into past cases to find precedent)

So when we consider this years draft if we can move up for say Doug Free or Paul Polsluzny, having spent our own R1 pick , do we think yes I want to give up the 2nd'07, the 5th'07 and then our 1st'08?

No, I want them to more effectively evaluate the players we can possibly draft in the 2nd, 5th and next year and then decide if the sums add up

Its called intelligent initial investment

That was Tom Donahoe's problem in the latter years. He only thought very short term and this team is still paying for it. Yes he did invest in a new QB who can still do us a good job but in doing so he may have given up a DT, a FB and a DE as well as a new QB in doing so.

And current state of the team, certainly the DL suggest it was a gamble which was wrong.

[Yasgur's Farm]

OK... 1 last try.

Re-read my initial post...

I clearly talk about an investment of TIME. That's the ongoing investment that must be spent during the developmental period.

I then went on to show the continued investment of time was worthy based on the historical time table of other quality QB's.

I pointed out to you that you were b itching about crap that couldn't be changed. You then (after seeing the logic) proceeded to try and justify your statements by throwing the "learned lesson" crap out there.

That was a wiggle and I'm not buying it.

[YardRat]

Only those who wear frizzy wigs, face paint, bright big red noses and massively oversized shoes don't do so.

I see you've met Dr. Lecter.<!-- / message -->

[kernowboy]

OK... 1 last try.

Re-read my initial post...

I clearly talk about an investment of TIME. That's the ongoing investment that must be spent during the developmental period.

I then went on to show the continued investment of time was worthy based on the historical time table of other quality QB's.

I pointed out to you that you were b itching about crap that couldn't be changed. You then (after seeing the logic) proceeded to try and justify your statements by throwing the "learned lesson" crap out there.

That was a wiggle and I'm not buying it.

Exactly where did I mention I was interested in your opinion rather than discussing with other posters the actual REAL investment which is the initial pick.

The development of the pick after the investment has been made, is what starts the day after the draft.

Unless of course you count investment in terms of the proportion of the salary cap that he is taking up

You have development time ..... who talks of investment time?

[PECKERWOOD]

Who said no doubts?
Hrm, I guess the comparison to a list of HOF QB's meant nothing. If you were pushing to give JP more time, there is no point. That is the general consensus on bz. Even many of the bashers think he needs to be remain the starter.

It honestly seems like, some people are scared to say Losman is a potential bust. In reality, if he doesnt pick it up here soon, he is going to be just that, a BUST.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Exactly where did I mention I was interested in your opinion rather than discussing with other posters the actual REAL investment which is the initial pick.Uhmmm... How about when you responded to the thread I made? And what other poster were you discussing "REAL investment" with? I don't think there was any response to your posts other than me.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Hrm, I guess the comparison to a list of HOF QB's meant nothing.Putting words in my mouth? BTW... How many of the QB's I listed are HOFers?


If you were pushing to give JP more time, there is no point. That is the general consensus on bz. Even many of the bashers think he needs to be remain the starter.Yes... 75 to 80% according to any poll I've seen here. Yet we are all considered "ridiculous" by the bashers.


It honestly seems like, some people are scared to say Losman is a potential bust. In reality, if he doesnt pick it up here soon, he is going to be just that, a BUST.There's a few who refuse to even consider the possibility that JP is taking the historical time table to develop.

[PECKERWOOD]

Putting words in my mouth? BTW... How many of the QB's I listed are HOFers?

Yes... 75 to 80% according to any poll I've seen here. Yet we are all considered "ridiculous" by the bashers.

There's a few who refuse to even consider the possibility that JP is taking the historical time table to develop.



Bret Favre
Terry Bradshaw
John Elway
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Drew Bledsoe possible hof, could be argued.
Donovan McNabb
David Carr
Troy Aikman
Jake Delhomme
Matt Hasselback

These are just a few of the QB's some of you jammokes would have run outta town before they developed.

I could see a couple other players on that list that, may one day be HoF's also. And the difference between JP and those QB's, is that they were constantly improving. JP seems to regress, quite frequently. So I wouldnt consider that putting words into your mouth, I consider that you forgetting what you said, good day sir.


Yes... 75 to 80% according to any poll I've seen here. Yet we are all considered "ridiculous" by the bashers.
I dont blame some bashers getting ticked off at some of the supporters around here. Alot of people here act like there is no chance of JP failing. As a JP supporter myself, that still gets quite annoying.


There's a few who refuse to even consider the possibility that JP is taking the historical time table to develop
You keep talking about 'facts' in your posts. That is not a fact, that is merely opinion. Here is a factoid for you, JP could be following a timetable that previous busts have followed. I would be hypocritical to say that he is doing so. Only time can tell. So how about we judge Losman's career thus far, based off of performance versus Santeria?

[Yasgur's Farm]

From that list...
Terry Beadshaw
Troy Aikman
John Elway
are HOFers

The remainder of your highlights a presumptuous at best... Especially Drew Bledsoe!

You make very little sense...
You take many statements and words out of context...
You make many poor assumptions...
I'm sorry for you!

[PECKERWOOD]

You make very little sense...
You take many statements and words out of context...
You make many poor assumptions...
I'm sorry for you!

I made plenty of sense. I did not assume, I quoted your previous posts. You asked me to name how many HOF QB's you compared Losman to, and I did just that. It just goes to show you, how reasonable you are. You are comparing a 3rd year player who has done zilch to HoF QB's, go figure.

[BuffaloJayhawk]

lol

[PECKERWOOD]

I'm glad to see you edit your post. Drew Bledsoe has thrown for over 40,000 yards in his career, that is a very interesting stat. I wont go into other interesting figures DB has put up, but like I said its arguable. Proving my point, further, thank you.

Maybe, you can point out the erroneousness comments in the rest of my statements. I try to look at everything from a matter of factly view. Furthermore, I will tell you what makes 'very little sense.' Your comparisons of JP to HoF QB's, thats what makes little sense.

Edit: Grammar.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I made plenty of sense. I did not assume, I quoted your previous posts. You asked me to name how many HOF QB's you compared Losman to, and I did just that. It just goes to show you, how reasonable you are. You are comparing a 3rd year player who has done zilch to HoF QB's, go figure.


I'm glad to see you edit your post. Drew Bledsoe has thrown for over 40,000 yards in his career, that is a very interesting stat. I wont go into other interesting figures DB has put up, but like I said its arguable. Proving my point, further, thank you.

Maybe, you can point out the erroneousness comments in the rest of my statements. I try to look at everything from a matter of factly view. Furthermore, I will tell you what makes 'very little sense.' Your comparisons of JP to HoF QB's, thats what makes little sense.

Edit: Grammar.
1) You included Peyton Manning, Brett Favre and Drew Bledsoe in your list of HOFers. That's presumptuous.

2) In any event... Brett Favre, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Drew Brees, Drew Bledsoe, Donovan McNabb, David Carr, Jake Delhomme & Matt Hasselback... 77% of the QB's I listed... are NOT HOFers

3) I stated (more than once) that I was comparing developmental years... not developed years.

I'm sorry if reading comprehension is not your strong suit... Not my problem... But I hear there's help available.

[patmoran2006]

I still shake my head how you could have David Carr your already ridiculous list.

If you're trying to imply Losman is on his way to a 22-54 record as a starter I can see, otherwise.. why?

[PECKERWOOD]

1) You included Peyton Manning, Brett Favre and Drew Bledsoe in your list of HOFers. That's presumptuous.

2) In any event... Brett Favre, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Drew Brees, Drew Bledsoe, Donovan McNabb, David Carr, Jake Delhomme & Matt Hasselback... 77% of the QB's I listed... are NOT HOFers

3) I stated (more than once) that I was comparing developmental years... not developed years.

I'm sorry if reading comprehension is not your strong suit... Not my problem... But I hear there's help available.

Hahaha, your saying Peyton and Favre wont be HoF's? I should stop arguing with you now, and perhaps contact a friend or relative of yours to check you into the hospital. I pointed out that DB could possibly be a HoF, and that it was very arguable.

From the list that you posted that arent HoF's. And from the list of QB's that arent in the HoF yet, many of them have a very good chance of getting there one day. Furthermore, let me also include out of the QB's that arent in the HoF on that list, 6 of them are previous Pro-Bowlers. What has JP Losman done to be in the same breath as those guys?

You obviously werent comparing their developmental years well enough. Off the top of my head:
Peyton threw for 3,739 yards his rookie season with 26 tds and 28 ints.

The first full season Eli played, he threw for 3,762 yds 24tds and 17 ints.

Palmers first full season played, he threw for 3,836 yds 32tds and 12tds, that was his 3rd season in the league. Isnt that interesting, this is JP's third season in the league also.

Those are 3 QB's from your list that arent HoF's. JP still isnt good enough to hold any of their jockstraps. So if you arent comparing stats, what exactly are you comparing JP and these other QB's by?

Edit: My ridiculously, horrible grammatical errors.

[kernowboy]

Losman's development should not be measured as a late first round pick. Because he cost more than that. Considering the 2005 pick given up was 11th, his cost is actually higher than Big Ben who already has a ring. The fact he went 22nd in 2004 is almost irrelevant. Tom Donahoe thought he was being clever, but what I cannot understand was if he was starting Bledsoe in 2004, did he think we would get to the SuperBowl with the existing squad?

The problem with moving up a round to grab a player and giving up players in subsequent drafts is that the place where they are measured from does not correspond to the point in the draft where they were picked. If all we had done was use our own pick on JP, then it would be a straightforward comparison, but he wasn't so it is not.


Also included in the list are some players taken like John Elway and Terry Bradshaw who were pre-Free Agency.

Free Agency had a dramatic impact on the time allowed to develop a player before they were given up so pre-Free Agency players should not be considered. The impact of the salary cap and free agency has completely changed the economics of investment and development.

Additionally

Delhomme was a free agency signing, who'd already been in the league four seasons. He was an OFA so because of the minimal investment costs (no draft pick required), was allowed to develop at his own pace.

Hasselback was a 6th rounder signed as a FA, by a coach who was familiar with his play. His development time had occured elsewhere. Again low investment cost, very low expectations, allowed to develop at own pace

The Mannings, Bledsoe, McNabb, and Carr, developed through being given almost immediate game time. And once, in the coaches have stuck with them.

And with the exception of Elway, each player cost only pick in their respective round, even if it was a number one overall pick. The higher the investment cost, the shorter the development time, someone will have to prove themselves especially as these days you can avoid putting all your eggs in one basket by signing replacements in FA

The argument made with investment and development is that with Losman, he needs to be given sufficient time. Well in these times, players often aren't given ideal development time.

That coupled with the fact that Losman didn't cost us 1 pick but 3 picks as well as compelling us to use a pick we retained elsewhere which could have got us a different QB, means that the perception of his development would always be coloured against other issues beyond his control.

Its not about whether he's had sufficient development time, its whether in the current economic climate of the game, he's come along quickly enough, not just compared to his contemporaries such as Eli, Big Ben and Phil, but also the development of the players we missed out on to move up for him.

Unfair maybe but a fact of life

[Yasgur's Farm]

I still shake my head how you could have David Carr your already ridiculous list.

If you're trying to imply Losman is on his way to a 22-54 record as a starter I can see, otherwise.. why?
David Carr, Like Drew Breez, took several years of investment and development before their teams began to enjoy the fruit of their success. I'm not even gonna diss the Chargers because they got something back in return.

I started out this discussion with you having some degree of respect for you. But it's become clear that you are not capable of operating in a respectful environment.


Hahaha, your saying Peyton and Favre wont be HoF's? I should stop arguing with you now, and perhaps contact a friend or relative of yours to check you into the hospital. I pointed out that DB could possibly be a HoF, and that it was very arguable.
There you go again... Putting words in my mouth. Perhaps you should consider an english course... Pay special attention to the past, present, future aspect of our language.

Oh, and... Welcome to America.


Losman's development should not be measured as a late first round pick. Because he cost more than that. Considering the 2005 pick given up was 11th, his cost is actually higher than Big Ben who already has a ring. The fact he went 22nd in 2004 is almost irrelevant. Tom Donahoe thought he was being clever, but what I cannot understand was if he was starting Bledsoe in 2004, did he think we would get to the SuperBowl with the existing squad? You're just gonna continue to be stuck on the draft choice thing, aren't you? When are you gonna understand that you don't just toss something out just because you feel you may have paid too much for it.

That's like throwing out your 401K because it lost 50% of it's value in the 9/11 aftermath. Instead, wouldn't it be much wiser to invest and develope it? Look where those wise people [Steelers, Cowboys, Begals, Chargers, Packers, Broncos, Giants, Colts...] are now with the DOW over 12,000.

What you're suggesting is that people should have taken the 50% market devaluation [plus the 30% to Uncle Sam] by pulling the money out and putting it under their mattress'.


I'm finished responding to all 3 of you chooches. SEE YA!!

[kernowboy]

You feel you have the right to insult us because we disagree with you and hold a different opinion? Why do you post? So that we can simply tell you how wonderful and clever your opinion is?

I think I might be responding to George Bush / Dick Cheney / Donald Rumsfeld based on your inability to accept anybody elses point of you apart from your own.

Because they didn't agree with someone (the French) they decided to resort to name calling and abuse (cheese eating surrender monkeys)

Big problem though, the French turned out to be right!

[PECKERWOOD]

David Carr, Like Drew Breez, took several years of investment and development before their teams began to enjoy the fruit of their success. I'm not even gonna diss the Chargers because they got something back in return.

I started out this discussion with you having some degree of respect for you. But it's become clear that you are not capable of operating in a respectful environment.


There you go again... Putting words in my mouth. Perhaps you should consider an english course... Pay special attention to the past, present, future aspect of our language.

Oh, and... Welcome to America.

You're just gonna continue to be stuck on the draft choice thing, aren't you? When are you gonna understand that you don't just toss something out just because you feel you may have paid too much for it.

That's like throwing out your 401K because it lost 50% of it's value in the 9/11 aftermath. Instead, wouldn't it be much wiser to invest and develope it? Look where those wise people [Steelers, Cowboys, Begals, Chargers, Packers, Broncos, Giants, Colts...] are now with the DOW over 12,000.

What you're suggesting is that people should have taken the 50% market devaluation [plus the 30% to Uncle Sam] by pulling the money out and putting it under their mattress'.


I'm finished responding to all 3 of you chooches. SEE YA!!

Your a joke. I argued with you respectfully. In return, every other thing you have said is a cheap insult. You suck. Its like your insults make up half of your post. Im not putting words in your mouth, but I could think of something else that belongs in your mouth.

Oh yeah, Draz you are ******ed. I never said to get rid of JP, maybe YOU should take the English course. I said to do something similar to what SD did, if JP continues to play like a bust. So that involves no cutting JP, simply not resigning him. So get your facts straight, and quit trying to put words into MY MOUTH.

For every Drew Brees and David Carr, there is about 5 Kyle Bollers and 5 Akili Smiths. It doesnt happen often, son. So really, learn to argue facts correctly, because over the course of this thread, you have made yourself look like a huge ________.

[PECKERWOOD]

You feel you have the right to insult us because we disagree with you and hold a different opinion? Why do you post? So that we can simply tell you how wonderful and clever your opinion is?

I think I might be responding to George Bush / Dick Cheney / Donald Rumsfeld based on your inability to accept anybody elses point of you apart from your own.

Because they didn't agree with someone (the French) they decided to resort to name calling and abuse (cheese eating surrender monkeys)

Big problem though, the French turned out to be right!

Its hilarious, if you own him with a good point. He wont respond back to it, he dodges it with an insult. Ridiculous.

[Yasgur's Farm]

JP is developing at a rate indicative of a late 1st round pick. If you all can't see that then I'm sorry.

There is an investment to be paid... The Bills have invested time into JP and it's obvious that he's shown enough growth to warrant a deeper investment. (See recent endorsements of Marv and D ick).

Bret Favre
Terry Bradshaw
John Elway
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Drew Bledsoe
Donovan McNabb
David Carr
Troy Aikman
Jake Delhomme
Matt Hasselback

These are just a few of the QB's some of you jammokes would have run outta town before they developed.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.Read with comprehension...


...but to say you have no doubts about the guy, your beyond optimism and nearing the brink of stupidity.
Words in my mouth... and insults.

I asked you where I said that I had no doubts.


Hrm, I guess the comparison to a list of HOF QB's meant nothing.
I corrected you by explaining that this is not a list of HOF QB's, simply a list of successful QB's that some of you jammokes would have run out of town because they struggled early on in there careers. Please re-read my initial post which I have conveniently posted here for you.

You went on to indicate that Brett Favre, Terry Bradshaw, John Elway, Peyton Manning, and Troy Aikman are all HOFers... and quite possibly even Drew Bledsoe.

I corrected you by pointing out that Brett Favre, Peyton Manning and Drew Bledsoe are not, at this time, HOFers. And that 77% of the QB's on that list were not currently HOFers.


Hahaha, your saying Peyton and Favre wont be HoF's? I should stop arguing with you now, and perhaps contact a friend or relative of yours to check you into the hospital. Again... More words in my mouth... And more insults.

I go on to tell you that I'm finished with this discussion and you respond...

Your a joke. I argued with you respectfully. In return, every other thing you have said is a cheap insult. You suck. Its like your insults make up half of your post. Im not putting words in your mouth, but I could think of something else that belongs in your mouth.

Oh yeah, Draz you are ******ed.I guess it comes down to what your definition of "is" is.

I said good day!

[patmoran2006]

Your list by definition of your intent is inaccurate and crap, no matter what spin you put on it.

[patmoran2006]

Since you're so hard up for "facts", here are some "facts" to show how ****ty of a post this was.

You are willing to put Losman in the same group as these guys.. Well, lets see.

For starters, you can take Hasselbeck, Delhomme and Brees off your list, since none of them are first round picks. I mean, this is about "time and investment" for a first rounder, no?

Since Bret Farve (9-7), John Elway (9-7), Eli Manning (11-5) and Donavan McNab (11-5) ALL led their team to WINNING records their FIRST year as starters, you should scratch them from your list as well otherwise it makes you look worse.. they were winners OFF The bat and contradicts your theory... Carson Palmer went 8-8 his first year, he should be gone too.

Drew Bledsoe only went 5-11 as a rookie starter, but led New England to a 10-6 record his second season... NOt seeing that from Losman.

Troy Aiman went just 1-15 his first year as a starter, but by just his second season he improved to 7-9. Surely, a 1-15 team cant get THAT much better in ONE season right? (Or could it actually be about the quarterback, hmmmm?)

Peyton Manning was a sad 3-13 in his first year, but by just his SECOND season as a starter he improved to a ridicuous 13-3. Hmmm, you think a winning QB had something to do with a 10-game turnaround?

DAvid Carr? He's on your list for real? Ok, I'll buy that.. Maybe because he's 22-54 as a starter.. You can have that comparison, Losman is on the right track there. Why Carr is on your list is beyond me.

That brings your "list" down to Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw went 5-9 as a first year starter and 6-8 record his second year, just 'modest' improvement. It took him two more years to become a "winner".

So if you want to compare JP Losman to Terry Bradshaw, then you go ahead and do that. If not, you're list is entirely inaccurate, not indicitive WHAT-SO-EVER to the path Losman is on, and even though you're obviously a knowledgeable guy, this thread was really stupid.

Again, get your notebook out.

Unless you want to compare Losman to Bradshaw, your list is extremely inaccurate and unrelated to any other QB on here (except for Carr, which befuddles me why you put him on there to begin with)

[Yasgur's Farm]

Pat... I've come to the conclusion that you live to flame... Pure and simple.

And the evidence clearly lies in your rep.

[patmoran2006]

Oh you mean the rep when I lost 10,000 points for not paying the "underground mafia" to "protect me".. Please.


What's the matter, you wanna get personal now? You're the one who made up the stupid list with little or NO resemblance to Losman at all, not me.

[ScottLawrence]

These comparions are idiotic.

JP is JP.

Like Moran pointed out, For as many Terry Bradshaws, and Drew Bress's, there are just as many Joey Harrington's, and Tommy Maddox's.


As far as I can tell, JP lacks all the intangibles good quarterbacks have, his play at the position is really bringing the team as a whole down, and is the main reason for why we are sitting 2-5 at the BYE week.

Anyone who disagrees is just being biased.

[PECKERWOOD]

Read with comprehension...


Words in my mouth... and insults.

I asked you where I said that I had no doubts.


I corrected you by explaining that this is not a list of HOF QB's, simply a list of successful QB's that some of you jammokes would have run out of town because they struggled early on in there careers. Please re-read my initial post which I have conveniently posted here for you.

You went on to indicate that Brett Favre, Terry Bradshaw, John Elway, Peyton Manning, and Troy Aikman are all HOFers... and quite possibly even Drew Bledsoe.

I corrected you by pointing out that Brett Favre, Peyton Manning and Drew Bledsoe are not, at this time, HOFers. And that 77% of the QB's on that list were not currently HOFers.

Again... More words in my mouth... And more insults.

I go on to tell you that I'm finished with this discussion and you respond...
I guess it comes down to what your definition of "is" is.

I said good day!


I think were all rooting for Losman, but to say you have no doubts about the guy, your beyond optimism and nearing the brink of stupidity.

That comment was not directed at you, it was a general statement. Where do you disagree with that statement, sir? There goes those assumptions you were talking about.


Read with comprehension...


Words in my mouth... and insults.

I asked you where I said that I had no doubts.


I corrected you by explaining that this is not a list of HOF QB's, simply a list of successful QB's that some of you jammokes would have run out of town because they struggled early on in there careers. Please re-read my initial post which I have conveniently posted here for you.

Actually, why would we have run any of those QB's out of town? We have been very patient with JP so far, and what you are failing to assert is that many of these QB's were very productive in their 1st-3rd seasons in the NFL.

corrected you by pointing out that Brett Favre, Peyton Manning and Drew Bledsoe are not, at this time, HOFers. And that 77% of the QB's on that list were not currently HOFers.

Again... More words in my mouth... And more insults.

I go on to tell you that I'm finished with this discussion and you respond...
I guess it comes down to what your definition of "is" is.

LoL, you corrected me by saying Peyton, Favre and Bledsoe are not HoF's at this time? No ****, Sherlock. I said Peyton and Favre are as good as HoF's, their just not in yet. If you had any common sense you would realize this statement was true. I also, simply asserted Bledsoe has a decent shot at Canton as well, very arguable.

Let me further point out, that 6 of the QB's that arent HoF's now or ever, were previous pro-bowlers, that includes Peyton, Favre and Bledslow.

You also stated that you were comparing their developmental / comparative years. You did not do this at all, if you read a couple posts back I compared JP's first 3 seasons in the NFL to Peyton, Eli and Carson, and lets say he didnt fair too well, and those are all QB's on your list. Out of all the QB's on your list, the only one you can effectively draw a comparison to JP with is David Carr. And with that said, I'm not impressed.

So please save the mockery, the joke is on you.

[PECKERWOOD]

Pat... I've come to the conclusion that you live to flame... Pure and simple.

And the evidence clearly lies in your rep.
Keep making stupid posts like this, and your rep wont be looking too good either.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Keep making stupid posts like this, and your rep wont be looking too good either.
From this thread...
11 seperate positive rep
1 anonymous negative rep
1 lecture from junior

[kernowboy]

Arrogance is not an attractive quality

[Yasgur's Farm]

Arrogance is not an attractive qualityI noticed.