Carson Palmer

[jmb1099]

Fumbles when hit blindly
Drew Brees threw three ints
Ben R threw three pics (two of which were returned for tds) and was sacked 5 times
Delhome, Penington, McNair, Smith, Gerrard, Leinart, Favre, Young, rosenfuls, McNabb, E Manning, Gradowski, Walter,, Plummer, Frye: all threw for under 200 yards.

Other QB's throwing ints: Leinart, Alex Smith, Rosenfuls, Carr, Pennington (2) Frye, Romo, Delhome
Qb taking multiple sacks: Delhome (3), Romo (2) Frye (3) Bulger (3) Walter (6) Rothlisberger (5) McNabb (4) E Manning (2) Gradowski (2) A Smith (2) Texans (4) Leinert (4) Palmer (2) Vick (2) Brees (2)

[kernowboy]

Bad day at the office for loads of people it seems

[PECKERWOOD]

Roethlisberger is looking horrible.

[jmb1099]

It was a rough day for many is right.

[MikeInRoch]

Big Ben sholdn't be playing until he has fully recovered. Batch could play a much better game at this point.

[HHURRICANE]

Everybody needs to curb their expectations around here. We don't need to have an HOF QB to win games around here. The difference between Losman getting accolades and getting blasted is not the INT's but the fumbles and sacks. If he changes those things than fans will be throwing thier support behind this kid.

The Bye came at the aboslute best time.

[TigerJ]

Gee, I guess everyone must have lost this weekend. LOL

[Inetpub]

And you JP nuthuggers still want to push that JP is the greatest or something? Theres a difference between the players you are all referring to and JP. They dont CONSISTENTLY make dumb mistakes and they TEND TO WIN GAMES. Given only Leinart on that list is a proven winner, 1 week is 1 week. Take thier overall careers and Im sure the only 3 game winners in that whole list is JP and Leinart.

Go figure. Who would have thought our 1 bad week would be a consistent one for all season?

[jamze132]

And you JP nuthuggers still want to push that JP is the greatest or something? Theres a difference between the players you are all referring to and JP. They dont CONSISTENTLY make dumb mistakes and they TEND TO WIN GAMES. Given only Leinart on that list is a proven winner, 1 week is 1 week. Take thier overall careers and Im sure the only 3 game winners in that whole list is JP and Leinart.

Go figure. Who would have thought our 1 bad week would be a consistent one for all season?
Leinart is a proven winner? In the NFL?

[Saratoga Slim]

Everybody needs to curb their expectations around here. We don't need to have an HOF QB to win games around here. The difference between Losman getting accolades and getting blasted is not the INT's but the fumbles and sacks. If he changes those things than fans will be throwing thier support behind this kid.

The Bye came at the aboslute best time.

i agree that JP's dealing with some pretty unrealistic expectations. He's thrown 6 picks in 7 games, which is not awful. In fact, there are 15 quarterbacks with more, including Big Ben (11), Eli (8), Hasselbeck (8), Pennington (7) and Rex (7).

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/bycategory?cat=Passing&conference=NFL&year=season_2006&sort=3&timeframe=ToDate

Overall, I've got to say that he's much more accurate than last year. You just don't see the bounce passes or tentative pushes anymore. He's throwing with much more confidence.

I think the greater issue is that the offense isn't scoring any points. An interception a game isn't going to make any fans mad if the offense is scoring. But when you haven't put up more than 20 points all season, it's easy to blame the QB and focus on his mistakes, as opposed to passing the blame around.

That said, I agree that he needs to limit the fumbling. At this point I'll give him some leeway on the sacks, b/c the line is not giving a whole lot of protection. I think we need to accept that sacks are going to happen until a) the OL plays better or b) Losman develops a better feeling for when he needs to forget looking downfield and take off, or is instructed to run more by the coaches. However, I think it's nonetheless reasonable to expect that sooner rather than later, JP learns to hear the footsteps, cover up the ball, and take a sack if necessary without putting the ball on the turf.

[Ron Burgundy]

Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Ben R, Delhome, Penington, McNair, Smith, Gerrard, Leinart, Favre, Young, McNabb, E Manning, Gradowski, , Plummer, Frye

> JP.

Yeah.

[YardRat]

Everybody has bad games. It's different depending on whether that kind of performance is the exception or the rule.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

And you JP nuthuggers still want to push that JP is the greatest or something? Theres a difference between the players you are all referring to and JP. They dont CONSISTENTLY make dumb mistakes and they TEND TO WIN GAMES. Given only Leinart on that list is a proven winner, 1 week is 1 week. Take thier overall careers and Im sure the only 3 game winners in that whole list is JP and Leinart.

Go figure. Who would have thought our 1 bad week would be a consistent one for all season?

would you please try to be a gentelman for just a short time and drop the nuthugger refrences. It really is completly unnecessary and makes you look like immature trailer trash.

[The_Philster]

would you please try to be a gentelman for just a short time and drop the nuthugger refrences. It really is completly unnecessary and makes you look like immature trailer trash.
quite frankly, when someone has to start name-calling like he does, his opinion is no longer valid as far as I'm concerned. It means he's not thinking like an adult...but a 2-year old

[jmb1099]

And you JP nuthuggers still want to push that JP is the greatest or something? Theres a difference between the players you are all referring to and JP. They dont CONSISTENTLY make dumb mistakes and they TEND TO WIN GAMES. Given only Leinart on that list is a proven winner, 1 week is 1 week. Take thier overall careers and Im sure the only 3 game winners in that whole list is JP and Leinart.

Go figure. Who would have thought our 1 bad week would be a consistent one for all season?
Teams win games, QB's play a role in helping a team win. You assume too much if you think I am saying Losman belongs in the Manning Palmer category. This post was an fyi to demonstrate two things:
1) That even the best qb's in the nfl don't always get it right (manning has yet to win a sb)
2) Expectations of our own qb are very high

Mike Vick looks like he may finally be figuring it out. Back to back games where he tosses multiple td's, and makes good decisions with the football...six years after he started in the NFL. Some of you guys can't even give our qb 16 games...wow.

Oh and just a little fyi on the side: calling me a nuthugger, or a boyfirend, or any other name isn't going to make me back off my point. It may get you a few thanks from those who agree with you, but it doesn't help make your point. I'm here to discuss football, how about you?

[jmb1099]

Everybody has bad games. It's different depending on whether that kind of performance is the exception or the rule.
Agreed. everybody occasionally has good games too. I'm very curious to see how Mike Vick does the rest of the season. In the last two weeks he's had to face fairly decent teams and has done very well. If he continues to do well it will have been a 6 year investment. Romo has held a clipboard for something like four years and so far he's one good game and one bad. I have if Losman will ever be successful, but what I do know is that there is a larger learning curve than many would care to admit.

[The_Philster]

Mike Vick looks like he may finally be figuring it out. Back to back games where he tosses multiple td's, and makes good decisions with the football...six years after he started in the NFL. Some of you guys can't even give our qb 16 games...wow.:bf1: They talked about this on ESPN Radio yesterday..about how he's finally becoming a QB. I don't think anyone is proposing we give JP 6 years to prove himself...a year shouldn't be too much to ask, though

[Nighthawk]

:bf1: They talked about this on ESPN Radio yesterday..about how he's finally becoming a QB. I don't think anyone is proposing we give JP 6 years to prove himself...a year shouldn't be too much to ask, though

JP should definitely be given until about the 13th or 14th game to show progress. If he is still stinking it up at that point, then we have to see what Nall can bring to the ballgame. The only reason that I do this is to see if we have something in Nall or if we need to go get another QB in the offseason. To waste the rest of season on JP if he is not progressing and to not give Nall a shot at the end would be stupid. Now, I'm not saying that Nall is the answer, but if JP continues to struggle and we don't see what Nall can do, then it is just as bad as what Mularkey did last year by playing Holcomb the last few weeks over JP. You've got to know what we have or we will be right back here again next year...in the same situation.

[DraftBoy]

Mike Vick looks like he may finally be figuring it out. Back to back games where he tosses multiple td's, and makes good decisions with the football...six years after he started in the NFL. Some of you guys can't even give our qb 16 games...wow.



When JP Losman becomes Mike Vick, Ill consider this point valid.

When JP becomes Leinart, Big Ben, Eli, Rivers or whoever else this thread will be valid.

When we stop using other QB's as excuses as to why ours isnt preforming well alot more opinions will become valid

[Nighthawk]

When JP Losman becomes Mike Vick, Ill consider this point valid.

When JP becomes Leinart, Big Ben, Eli, Rivers or whoever else this thread will be valid.

When we stop using other QB's as excuses as to why ours isnt preforming well alot more opinions will become valid

Umm, damn! I couldn't have said it any better...Amen!:limpclap:

[The_Philster]

When JP Losman becomes Mike Vick, Ill consider this point valid.

When JP becomes Leinart, Big Ben, Eli, Rivers or whoever else this thread will be valid.

When we stop using other QB's as excuses as to why ours isnt preforming well alot more opinions will become valid
No one's making excuses..people are just saying that JP needs to be given a chance to improve

[Nighthawk]

No one's making excuses..people are just saying that JP needs to be given a chance to improve

I'm all for improvement, but he's going backwards. Oh and yes, people are making excuses for him. I don't blame everybody...we all want to think he is going to fix our QB problems, but sometimes things don't go as we planned and we have to just move on. As I said before, I think it is fair to give him up until week 13 or 14 and then we see what Nall can do.

[jmb1099]

When JP Losman becomes Mike Vick, Ill consider this point valid.

When JP becomes Leinart, Big Ben, Eli, Rivers or whoever else this thread will be valid.

When we stop using other QB's as excuses as to why ours isnt preforming well alot more opinions will become valid
You did see the part where I said fyi right?
Look, no offense meant, but I think you're missing the point. The Mike Vick that played the last two weeks didn't suddenly become "good". In fact it wasn't long ago that many started thinking he was the most over-rated player in the nfl. Maybe the last two weeks were a fluke which is why in a previous post I stated everyone ocassionally has a good game and I will be very curious to see how he finishes out the year. My point is not to say Losman will be a great qb, I don't know that he will and many indicators now are not good. However, good qb's, for the most part, are developed. Romo has had one bad game and one good, but he held a clipboard for four years. Vick has pretty much sucked for almost six years, many people calling for Schaub to start.
Finally, this thread wasn't started as a "Losman" excuse thread. I've said it before to others and now I'm saying it to you, he deserves to be critisized as much as anyone else. But this thread has proven to be interesting in that no matter how poorly any of the qb's I mentioned played, they are all somehow exempt to being critisized??? Poor play is poor play. Sacks are sacks, fumbles are fumbles, and ints are ints. Doesn't matter what you last name is or what teams uniform you're wearing.

[DraftBoy]

No one's making excuses..people are just saying that JP needs to be given a chance to improve

:rofl:

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally Posted by jmb1099

Mike Vick looks like he may finally be figuring it out. Back to back games where he tosses multiple td's, and makes good decisions with the football...six years after he started in the NFL. Some of you guys can't even give our qb 16 games...wow.

I agree to a point. My problem with JP is not his performance but his lack of presence. I really don't see that turning around but may as well play him out for the rest of the year to find out. This team isn't going anywhere anyway so why not.

On another note, using Vick's recent turnaround is a good indictment of how s****y Dick and Co. are. Vick is starting to be successful because his coaching staff is letting him move around and not forcing him to be a pocket passer. This is the opposite of what Dick is doing - he is forcing JP to stand in there and it is not what JP is all about. He's a scrambler and does his best ON THE RUN. But Dickhead doesn't seem to get that.

[jmb1099]

I agree to a point. My problem with JP is not his performance but his lack of presence.

On another note, using Vick's recent turnaround is a good indictment of how s****y Dick and Co. Vick is starting to be successful because his coaching staff is letting him move around and not forcing him to be a pocket passer. This is the opposite of what Dick is doing - he is forcing JP to stand in there and it is not what JP is all about. He's a scrambler and does his best ON THE RUN. But Dickhead doesn't seem to get that.
Its almost as if they went too far with him. Last year he couldn't keep still and this year he seems ordered not to move.

[DraftBoy]

You did see the part where I said fyi right?
Look, no offense meant, but I think you're missing the point. The Mike Vick that played the last two weeks didn't suddenly become "good". In fact it wasn't long ago that many started thinking he was the most over-rated player in the nfl. Maybe the last two weeks were a fluke which is why in a previous post I stated everyone ocassionally has a good game and I will be very curious to see how he finishes out the year. My point is not to say Losman will be a great qb, I don't know that he will and many indicators now are not good. However, good qb's, for the most part, are developed. Romo has had one bad game and one good, but he held a clipboard for four years. Vick has pretty much sucked for almost six years, many people calling for Schaub to start.
Finally, this thread wasn't started as a "Losman" excuse thread. I've said it before to others and now I'm saying it to you, he deserves to be critisized as much as anyone else. But this thread has proven to be interesting in that no matter how poorly any of the qb's I mentioned played, they are all somehow exempt to being critisized??? Poor play is poor play. Sacks are sacks, fumbles are fumbles, and ints are ints. Doesn't matter what you last name is or what teams uniform you're wearing.

For your info, Ive seen every game of Vick's career, those calling him overrated and calling for Schaub to start (which FYI was a miniscule minority) are not watching him play but rather looking at stat lines. He makes mistakes but his positive far outweigh his negatives.

Jp Losman is not Vick nor anybody else. Anybody who attempts to make a comparison as an excuse or as a mark against him is dumb. Vick didnt need 6 years to prove himself in the NFL, and the fact that he has 2 good weeks in a row doesnt mean anything. He was a good QB 2-3 years ago, unfortunately too many people rely on the stat line to try and tell them everything they want to know about a player.

[DraftBoy]

Its almost as if they went too far with him. Last year he couldn't keep still and this year he seems ordered not to move.


Now that I completely agree with

[DraftBoy]

I agree to a point. My problem with JP is not his performance but his lack of presence. I really don't see that turning around but may as well play him out for the rest of the year to find out. This team isn't going anywhere anyway so why not.

On another note, using Vick's recent turnaround is a good indictment of how s****y Dick and Co. are. Vick is starting to be successful because his coaching staff is letting him move around and not forcing him to be a pocket passer. This is the opposite of what Dick is doing - he is forcing JP to stand in there and it is not what JP is all about. He's a scrambler and does his best ON THE RUN. But Dickhead doesn't seem to get that.


I disagree, Vick still does not have the people around him at the WR posistion to properly utilize his talents. He's improving but he hasnt capped out his talents yet. I think he's being held back by the current OC and he's matured enough to realize he just needs to get with the program and stop trying to prove the press and others wrong, and just play the game.

[jmb1099]

I agree to a point. My problem with JP is not his performance but his lack of presence.

On another note, using Vick's recent turnaround is a good indictment of how s****y Dick and Co. are. Vick is starting to be successful because his coaching staff is letting him move around and not forcing him to be a pocket passer. This is the opposite of what Dick is doing - he is forcing JP to stand in there and it is not what JP is all about. He's a scrambler and does his best ON THE RUN. But Dickhead doesn't seem to get that.
One other thought...If Peters plays well at LT and Losman has good protection on his blind side but still can't get it done, than its done. Knowing the guy protecting your blindside couldn't hold back a gerbil doesn't do you any favors. But if Peters plays well and Losman still can't figure it out than he never will.

[DraftBoy]

One other thought...If Peters plays well at LT and Losman has good protection on his blind side but still can't get it done, than its done. Knowing the guy protecting your blindside couldn't hold back a gerbil doesn't do you any favors. But if Peters plays well and Losman still can't figure it out than he never will.

Agreed, the OL has been a huge problem and it hasnt helped JP, and this hopefully provides some more stability for him. GB should be a good indicator they dont generate a huge amount of DL rush.

[Nighthawk]

Listen everybody...JP is missing that one key ingredient that is very apparent that he doesn't have. What is that, you ask? Well, it is the "it" factor. What "it" is exactly, nobody can put their finger on it, but JP doesn't seem to have it. He just doesn't seem to have a good feel for the game. Vick has always been able to make plays, JP doesn't. Brady has it...he just looks like he gets it and knows what is going on around him...JP doesn't. I wish I knew what "it" was because I would be a rich man if I could pinpoint it!

[jmb1099]

For your info, Ive seen every game of Vick's career, those calling him overrated and calling for Schaub to start (which FYI was a miniscule minority) are not watching him play but rather looking at stat lines. He makes mistakes but his positive far outweigh his negatives.

Jp Losman is not Vick nor anybody else. Anybody who attempts to make a comparison as an excuse or as a mark against him is dumb. Vick didnt need 6 years to prove himself in the NFL, and the fact that he has 2 good weeks in a row doesnt mean anything. He was a good QB 2-3 years ago, unfortunately too many people rely on the stat line to try and tell them everything they want to know about a player.
I agree Losman is not anyone else which would also include the list of busts that continue to be associated with his name. However comparisons can be made even if the comparisons themselves will not effect the outcome one way or the other.
Vick has steadily improved over the past six years and even if you're right and he's been good for 2 or three years, that still gives him at least twice as many games to work things out, it takes time. So again, if you're right, and he started to play well in his fourth year, that's a development period and it looks like it is starting to pay off. This isn't to say that Losman will ever pan out, however, I'm not convinced that there is any real way to know one way or the other so early on, development takes time and it may never pay off, but that's the risk everyone takes when drafting newbies.

[jmb1099]

Listen everybody...JP is missing that one key ingredient that is very apparent that he doesn't have. What is that, you ask? Well, it is the "it" factor. What "it" is exactly, nobody can put their finger on it, but JP doesn't seem to have it. He just doesn't seem to have a good feel for the game. Vick has always been able to make plays, JP doesn't. Brady has it...he just looks like he gets it and knows what is going on around him...JP doesn't. I wish I knew what "it" was because I would be a rich man if I could pinpoint it!
See I know what you're saying, but the thing that is just irritating is that he occasionaly does make plays, but than he'll do something that makes you want to kick in your television. But I see what you're saying. Maybe he never will have "it", I don't know.

[Mr. Cynical]

Listen everybody...JP is missing that one key ingredient that is very apparent that he doesn't have. What is that, you ask? Well, it is the "it" factor. What "it" is exactly, nobody can put their finger on it, but JP doesn't seem to have it. He just doesn't seem to have a good feel for the game. Vick has always been able to make plays, JP doesn't. Brady has it...he just looks like he gets it and knows what is going on around him...JP doesn't. I wish I knew what "it" was because I would be a rich man if I could pinpoint it!

That's been my position all along. Regardless of his stats or W-L or surrounding cast he is not showing "it" like other young QBs. I could care less if he tosses 10 INTs per game as long as he is a leader out there and moves around instinctively like he belongs there.

[jmb1099]

Agreed, the OL has been a huge problem and it hasnt helped JP, and this hopefully provides some more stability for him. GB should be a good indicator they dont generate a huge amount of DL rush.
If GB provides a big rush against us than our line is even worse than I initially thought. If Losman has time and sucks than its done. I'm very curious to see how the Peters experiment pays off.

[Inetpub]

Again a useless post comparing JP now to Michael Vick. Excuses excuses excuses. Get over it people. JP isnt Michael Vick.

BTW, Vick has NEVER had a losing season as the Starting QB. Please do your research or know what your talking about if your going to say Vick needed alot of time to develop. 11-5 seasons arent development years.

Stats wise, with Vicks first FULL year at the helm, 2002 he was 9-6-1. in 2003 they went 5-11 with Vick injured and only playing 5 games. 2004 with him playing a full season they went 11-5. Its a huge difference when your QB has the leadership ability and lockerroom pressence such as MV. Last year, 8-8 and this year 4-2. The only season with Vick out, they went 5-11. Coincidence? Not likely. Is Vick a great QB? Unfair to say yet because greatness is achieved over time but he is a good leader and has pressence in everything he does.

Now lets get back to why you guys insist on comparing JP to good QBs. Lets compare him to his idol Rob Johnson!

[jmb1099]

Again a useless post comparing JP now to Michael Vick. Excuses excuses excuses. Get over it people. JP isnt Michael Vick.

BTW, Vick has NEVER had a losing season as the Starting QB. Please do your research or know what your talking about if your going to say Vick needed alot of time to develop. 11-5 seasons arent development years.

Stats wise, with Vicks first FULL year at the helm, 2002 he was 9-6-1. in 2003 they went 5-11 with Vick injured and only playing 5 games. 2004 with him playing a full season they went 11-5. Its a huge difference when your QB has the leadership ability and lockerroom pressence such as MV. Last year, 8-8 and this year 4-2. The only season with Vick out, they went 5-11. Coincidence? Not likely. Is Vick a great QB? Unfair to say yet because greatness is achieved over time but he is a good leader and has pressence in everything he does.

Now lets get back to why you guys insist on comparing JP to good QBs. Lets compare him to his idol Rob Johnson!
Sorry, Vick did take time to develop and the jury is still out. I agree with you that Losman isn't Vick. As I've stated a number of times this isn't an excuse thread. All I did was point out the stats from Sunday's performances, if you want to get right down to it you can blame nfl.com for publishing them. If Losman doesn't pan out I won't cry a single drop, I am first and foremost a Bills fan. What will be bothersome is having to start all over again with the qb position and I really hope that doesn't happen...not because I'm a "nuthugger" or a "boyfirend", but because this team doesn't need another set back. Read this very carefully, it is in the best interest of the team and its fans for Losman to be successful because if he's not its likely we'll have another four years of garbage and I don't look forward to that, do you?

[Inetpub]

How is the jury still out on Vick? The guy is a physical specimen and can run the 40 faster than ANY QB in the NFL. Hes probably doing the 40 faster than Wide recievers. Yes he isnt the traditional QB but thats not his game. His game isnt a pocket passing game. I guarantee ANY Head coach in the NFL would take Vick in a dime! And the Jury is still out?

Yes he took abit of time. But it wasnt 3 years. Year 1 he was 9-6-1. Year 2 he was injured and played only 5 games. Year 3 he was 11-5. And he took alot of time? That looks like a winning record to me. It didnt take him long to start winning and if your going to use stats, those were his wins.

If your looking for his passing game, yes, he isnt a pocket passer but the first few years they didnt make him throw often and again, you dont compare Vick to the peyton mannings. Same reason why you dont compare peyton to Vick. Both have thier own games and both play it successfully. And the jury isnt out on Vick. He is a leader and winner. How is that a jury out?

[jmb1099]

How is the jury still out on Vick? The guy is a physical specimen and can run the 40 faster than ANY QB in the NFL. Hes probably doing the 40 faster than Wide recievers. Yes he isnt the traditional QB but thats not his game. His game isnt a pocket passing game. I guarantee ANY Head coach in the NFL would take Vick in a dime! And the Jury is still out?

Yes he took abit of time. But it wasnt 3 years. Year 1 he was 9-6-1. Year 2 he was injured and played only 5 games. Year 3 he was 11-5. And he took alot of time? That looks like a winning record to me. It didnt take him long to start winning and if your going to use stats, those were his wins.

If your looking for his passing game, yes, he isnt a pocket passer but the first few years they didnt make him throw often and again, you dont compare Vick to the peyton mannings. Same reason why you dont compare peyton to Vick. Both have thier own games and both play it successfully. And the jury isnt out on Vick. He is a leader and winner. How is that a jury out?
I'm trying to find some common ground with you here, he did take a bit of time. I agree with you about wins being more important than stats, but, stats do indicate a players performance in different aspects of his play. For example, if you remove the fumble stat from Losman (just for example sake) he would appear to be having a decent year. But the fumble stat can't be removed, its part of who he is. The same is true of any player including Vick. So yes they won, and at the end of the day that is the most important thing, but Vicks perfomace is documented through stats. And its a good thing because it seems as if he is improving in his actual passing game. He's always been a playmaker, no doubt, but he hasn't been a consistent passer, not by any means. But that appears to be changing and that aspect of his game has taken at least three years to develop.
Now leadership is a whole other issue. Some guys figure it out sooner than others, some never figure it out at all. Vick is his teams leader, no doubt. I agree with you 100% on this point. The Bills are still leaderless, no question, will Losman ever figure it out? I don't know. What I do know is that it takes time to develop qb's and I do not believe we given Losman enough time to work through all of the problem areas he has displayed.

[PECKERWOOD]

How is the jury still out on Vick? The guy is a physical specimen and can run the 40 faster than ANY QB in the NFL. Hes probably doing the 40 faster than Wide recievers. Yes he isnt the traditional QB but thats not his game. His game isnt a pocket passing game. I guarantee ANY Head coach in the NFL would take Vick in a dime! And the Jury is still out?

Yes he took abit of time. But it wasnt 3 years. Year 1 he was 9-6-1. Year 2 he was injured and played only 5 games. Year 3 he was 11-5. And he took alot of time? That looks like a winning record to me. It didnt take him long to start winning and if your going to use stats, those were his wins.

If your looking for his passing game, yes, he isnt a pocket passer but the first few years they didnt make him throw often and again, you dont compare Vick to the peyton mannings. Same reason why you dont compare peyton to Vick. Both have thier own games and both play it successfully. And the jury isnt out on Vick. He is a leader and winner. How is that a jury out?

My thoughts exactly. I never doubted his ability to win. I would be lying though, if I said I thought he could pass the football. Seems like he is silencing alot of critics, isn't he?

[LtFinFan66]

:idunno: