Is this poor coaching or poor players?

[kernowboy]

I wonder is this a case of the coaching simply not utilising the TE enough or is it due to a lack of quality at TE?

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/2006/10/bills-losman-tightends311006.html


If its that latter we should be able to address it in either free agency with some top TE potentially available, or in the draft

[kernowboy]

Well I think that a failure to provide JP with a full set of offensive weapons has hampered his development and allowed bad habits to continue

[Typ0]

Maybe the plays are there and JP doesn't have the gumption to change something from a long developing play to a quicker play or call for max protecting at the LOS because he can't read a defense. I don't see any of you "supporters" saying this is a possibility. Instead, it's always someone elses fault why JP can't run or control the offense and looks like crap week in and week out. Next week I expect to hear people *****ing about "that referree guy" who "kept putting olive oil on the ball right before JP handled it".

[kernowboy]

I beg your pardon, but can I ask where I stated that I was a supporter? Certainly nowhere in the above thread, and I think you'll find that in all of my threads I have been very much on the fence, believing that whilst the QB is not good, there are far more fundamental problems with the team that also need to be addressed for ANY QB to succeed.

The article highlighted that those young QBs who are developing successfully, and indeed all of the top QBs do seem to have a good TE on the roster that each team is effectively utilising, if only to provide a safety valve for the offence.

My question is, as the Bills seem to be not using the TEs very effectively this season in comparion, is this the fault of the coaches for not effectively using the TE in any offensive scheme or is this due to a lack of quality at the position in Robert Royal and Kevin Everett? If this is the case is TE then an immediate need in the coming offseason in Free Agency or the draft?

The observation about JP struggling to develop due to the lack of effective TE play is one made in comparison and by observation with the success of other similarly aged QBs and the effective TE play they have had. It is quite possible that JP would still not have developed as the team would want, but without incorporating this important element of the offence, it is very difficult to tell.

The haters would automatically say that even with a 5xPro Bowl offensive line, a Pro Bowl receiving cast and a Pro Bowl RB, he'd still be useless, but I would rather have some intelligent analysis and observation before jumping to this position.

[Elminster]

I wonder is this a case of the coaching simply not utilising the TE enough or is it due to a lack of quality at TE?

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/2006/10/bills-losman-tightends311006.html


If its that latter we should be able to address it in either free agency with some top TE potentially available, or in the draft
It's hard to say, at this point. Needless to say, we're a work in progress. We are very obviously not the team Marv has in mind, and I don't think we were supposed to be after just one year.

But, back to the question, JP, for example. Start #16 comes against Green Bay. He was expected to be something of a "project"(go Donahoe!) and people are surprised and already yelling "bust" because he can't read a defense like Tom Brady already. But, anyways.....his fumbling problem is his bad, but the fact he often is taking 5-7 step drops and has little to no roll-outs to get him away from a pocket that often collapses at multiple points because he's more comfortable on the move is poor coaching. You've got to teach him how to stay put, I agree, but not mixing in little "treats" more often than they are is hurting us IMO..

[HHURRICANE]

"Before you get hot," Fletcher said, "you have to get one victory."

I think it's the players!!!

[justasportsfan]

Maybe the plays are there and JP doesn't have the gumption to change something from a long developing play to a quicker play or call for max protecting at the LOS because he can't read a defense. I don't see any of you "supporters" saying this is a possibility. Instead, it's always someone elses fault why JP can't run or control the offense and looks like crap week in and week out. Next week I expect to hear people *****ing about "that referree guy" who "kept putting olive oil on the ball right before JP handled it".

Looks like an attempt to simply try and bash JP and their supporters because the biggest JP supporters here admit that JP has had his fair share when it comes to mistakes in the O.

What bashers like you seem to forget especially when attempting to bring up stats are the penalties caused in the redzone by other players. The mistakes made against the jets were also JP's faults right?

[justasportsfan]

oh and to answer the title of the thread, it's both. Players are still getting used to the new system and coaches are just learning about their players. A common thing amongst teams in rebuild mode.

[OpIv37]

well it could go either way, but if it's lack of talent I'm very disappointed because there have been unsuccessful attempts to upgrade this position for years- Remeirsma, Campbell, Euhus, Neufeld, Everett, Royal. Sooner or later you'd think they'd get it right.

I still have some hope for Royal though- in the last two games he's shown flashes of being good enough that the D can't ignore him. Everett's been a huge disappointment so far.

[Typ0]

Looks like an attempt to simply try and bash JP and their supporters because the biggest JP supporters here admit that JP has had his fair share when it comes to mistakes in the O.

What bashers like you seem to forget especially when attempting to bring up stats are the penalties caused in the redzone by other players. The mistakes made against the jets were also JP's faults right?


it's not any such attempt. My position is we need to stop looking around and pointing fingers. Stop saying it's this problem or that problem. The problem is with the whole team.

This thread is started on the premise that if the TE was being used more we'd be a better team. It makes assumptions about why the TE is not being used. I refuted those assumptions with a similar assumption that put the blame for the TE not being thrown to on JP Losman instead of the coaches.

Unless you have some kind of insider information about what is happening on the sidelines you are in the same boat as the rest of us. We really have no idea. That includes every single person on earth except for those on the sidelines that are in the loop.

So if people can say the coaches or anyone else are to blame then I certainly am within my bounds to say JP has a role in the problem as well. When you come up with some evidence contrary to that ASSUMPTION then I am more than willing to listen. Too much time is spent bantering back and fourth about everyones opinions about who is to blame.

[Typ0]

well it could go either way, but if it's lack of talent I'm very disappointed because there have been unsuccessful attempts to upgrade this position for years- Remeirsma, Campbell, Euhus, Neufeld, Everett, Royal. Sooner or later you'd think they'd get it right.

I still have some hope for Royal though- in the last two games he's shown flashes of being good enough that the D can't ignore him. Everett's been a huge disappointment so far.


I don't think the TE position is that putrid either. Their numbers just aren't being called the right way at the right time. Those guys end up trying to clean up a mess on the OLine and that effort is usually for naught. I'd get off JPs back a little bit on this issue if he'd demonstrate he can actually see a guy releasing from the line on a poorly developing play or even throw a short pass.

[Typ0]

I beg your pardon, but can I ask where I stated that I was a supporter? Certainly nowhere in the above thread, and I think you'll find that in all of my threads I have been very much on the fence, believing that whilst the QB is not good, there are far more fundamental problems with the team that also need to be addressed for ANY QB to succeed.

The article highlighted that those young QBs who are developing successfully, and indeed all of the top QBs do seem to have a good TE on the roster that each team is effectively utilising, if only to provide a safety valve for the offence.

My question is, as the Bills seem to be not using the TEs very effectively this season in comparion, is this the fault of the coaches for not effectively using the TE in any offensive scheme or is this due to a lack of quality at the position in Robert Royal and Kevin Everett? If this is the case is TE then an immediate need in the coming offseason in Free Agency or the draft?

The observation about JP struggling to develop due to the lack of effective TE play is one made in comparison and by observation with the success of other similarly aged QBs and the effective TE play they have had. It is quite possible that JP would still not have developed as the team would want, but without incorporating this important element of the offence, it is very difficult to tell.

The haters would automatically say that even with a 5xPro Bowl offensive line, a Pro Bowl receiving cast and a Pro Bowl RB, he'd still be useless, but I would rather have some intelligent analysis and observation before jumping to this position.


when, ever, has JP Losman demonstrated he even has a clue what a "safety valve for the offense" is?

I hope you aren't going to tell me that our coaching staff is stupid enough to tell him to use that seven step drop when every defender is going to blitz and then hold on to the ball until he is tackled and fumbles. I just can't think anyone is that stupid. I don't think JP is either...he just doesn't have the head to do something on the moment to make an adjustment to that situation and give us a chance. When I see something different...perhaps when that is happening he could actually change the play to the type of TE throw you are looking for then I will be more confident.

I'm not calling for Holcolm....but I'd rather have his 20 5 - 15 yard passes than JP Losmans 2 40+ yarders. JP just doesn't understand that the whole field does not have to be covered on one play. He doesn't understand the importance of moving the chains. It's not good enough for him to check down to WM or a TE and get a few yards. He want's too much and he can't execute anything...and it shows.

[spacecowboy]

What happened to Royal? In preseason I was optomistic about his play, but he hasn't really been a factor. Is JP not looking for him or is it Royals route running, or just no plays being called for him? You'd think they would have some more check down passes to the TE with the protection (or lack of) being what it is.

[justasportsfan]

So if people can say the coaches or anyone else are to blame then I certainly am within my bounds to say JP has a role in the problem as well. . JP supporters agree that JP is a problem as well.

which is why I don't understand where this statement is coming from.


Instead, it's always someone elses fault why JP can't run or control the offense and looks like crap week in and week out. .

[djjimkelly]

ill give me square peg round hole theory on both sides of the ball. we run a 7 step drop offense yet do not have a line that can block for 5 steps half the time.

we have a defense that is based on the front 4 getting pressure but it cant get pressure.

so very simple we are the BUFFALO SQUARE PEG ROUND HOLES

[kernowboy]

What happened to Royal? In preseason I was optomistic about his play, but he hasn't really been a factor. Is JP not looking for him or is it Royals route running, or just no plays being called for him? You'd think they would have some more check down passes to the TE with the protection (or lack of) being what it is.

I think this thread flags up two things.

All young QBs have come along quickly when they have had a good TE.

All the top teams seem to have a top TE.

My question is, are the coaches not utilising the TEs effectively or has it been determined that the TEs are simply not good enough?

Although I am happy Royal seems to have become more involved I think we must upgrade here further. This will either be so however we have at QB has a more effective weapon or safety valve than we currently do. For me Everett has been a total waste of a 3rd rounder.

[HHURRICANE]

ill give me square peg round hole theory on both sides of the ball. we run a 7 step drop offense yet do not have a line that can block for 5 steps half the time.

we have a defense that is based on the front 4 getting pressure but it cant get pressure.

so very simple we are the BUFFALO SQUARE PEG ROUND HOLES


You can tell you went to Michigan. I wish everybody was this right on.

[bflojohn]

In my opinion, one thing here fuels the other! It isn't scheme, to me, it is the evidence that Robert Royal is being asked to stay in and block and therefore doesn't provide the safety valve everyone here wants to see. (including me!) Regardless, the proof seemingly points to "protection issues" and you can scheme and plan all you like, but the truth is that this problem needs correction, by way of new personnel. To me, Robert Royal, next year, will be utilized differently than he is this year, IMO. It boils down to what needs attention first, the TE position or the O-line? My money is on O-line revamping in the offseason, unless this grand experiment fostered during the bye week is somehow successful. Stay tuned....
Note: Bears fans had the same questions about Desmond Clark and wanted the Bears to draft Pope. The evidence there is that Clark has now become a "favorite target for Rex Grossman, and the Bears were smarter than the average fan.... GO FIGURE!!!