This guy sucks! [Archive] - BillsZone.com

X-Era

11-01-2006, 12:31 PM

Frikkin Roth is the worst QB in the world. That clown just threw 4 int's this past week. Charlie Batch should start now, he CANT be any worse than this guy.

BR = RJ

Steelers | Roethlisberger to remain starter
Wed, 1 Nov 2006 07:45:55 -0800
Ed Bouchette, of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, reports Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.kffl.com/team/30/nfl) head coach Bill Cowher (http://www.kffl.com/player/1979/nfl) will not pull QB Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.kffl.com/player/9341/nfl) in favor of QB Charlie Batch (http://www.kffl.com/player/691/nfl) Week 9 despite Roethlisberger's four-interception performance Week 8. "Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.kffl.com/player/9341/nfl) is a good football player, he's a good quarterback. He will learn from it," Cowher said. "I think the greatest thing about that is he recognizes that. He's accountable. He's a stand-up guy. Those things will make him a stronger player, a stronger person through the course of time. I truly believe that."

Hes accountable? Absolutely, all the losses are completely his fault, they easily could be 7 and 0 right now if they had a decent QB.

Hes a good football player? No hes not! Did Bill even watch the last game? God, the whole theory of building a good team revolves around what have you done for me lately. Man hes stupid.

Stronger over the course of time? How much longer should anyone give this guy? hes flat out stunk it up this year. They need to win now at all cost. This last game PROVES that Roth will NEVER be any good.

Complete piece of crap, they need to draft Brady Quinn!!!

Sarcasm/OFF
:lol:

Mr. Miyagi

11-01-2006, 12:38 PM

Or they should trade for ******s like David Garrard. :snicker:

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 12:43 PM

Oh I see, so because Ben has had a few bad games, the team is 2-5 soley because of him??? Sounds a little hypocritical to me as opposed to your view of Losman.

I don't care who has what talent on their team, Roethlisberger has been in the playoffs twice and been on a Super Bowl winning team. He's NOT the worst QB in the league (that just shows your ignorance), and he's certainly in a whole other class (even on his worst day) than J.P. Losman is right now, who hasn't proven anything in this league so far.

Jon

Mr. Miyagi

11-01-2006, 12:48 PM

I guess the sarcasm wasn't as obvious as one would imagine.

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 12:56 PM

I guess the sarcasm wasn't as obvious as one would imagine.

I was directing my post at jp-era, not you. I got your humor.

Jon

Mr. Miyagi

11-01-2006, 12:59 PM

Yes but you didn't get jp-era's sarcasm either I think.

X-Era

11-01-2006, 01:00 PM

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 01:11 PM

You completely missed my sarcasm. Ill make a note of it to prevent being misinterpreted

Fair enough, but the point still remains... there are many people here who like to compare Losman to Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, and Philip Rivers, among others. Sorry, but all three have proven more than Losman has at this point in time. Two of those guys have been to the playoffs, one has won the Super Bowl, and Philip Rivers has a winning record, all things J.P. Losman hasn't come close to sniffing in his three years. I don't want to hear about supporting cast, and so-and-so got to play earlier. If Losman was all that and a bag of chips, he'd have been playing the last two years, and perhaps his first year.

The guy has not shown it yet. We hope he will, but he has shown nothing so far.

Time for J.P. to put the big boy pants on and start to do his part in helping the team win. He has to not be a "neutral" factor who doesn't make mistakes, and he definitely can't be a liability. He has to become and asset that improves our chances of winning.

It all starts Sunday.

Jon

scott51

11-01-2006, 01:18 PM

The Steelers are my 2nd favorite team (have been since I met Kevin Greene) and when I read that I was 99.9% positive that it was sarcasm. I think that Ben is definitly having a down year so far, ALL quarterbacks do. Fact is, when Ben first came to Pittsburgh, we had a hell of a run game with the Bus. Now, we don't have the strong run game and Ben is having to rely on his arm more. I also think that you have to factor in: A motorcycle accident, surgery to repair a broken jaw, an emergency appedectomy, 2 possible concussions, and how many games has he missed? Not many for going through all of that!!

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 01:18 PM

You completely missed my sarcasm. Ill make a note of it to prevent being misinterpreted

Actually, after re-reading your post again and seeing your sarcasm, I stick to my point with you. In a backhanded way, you are actually comparing Roethlisberger to Losman still...

You're suggesting (in your reverse sarcastic way) that because Ben has had some bad games, the Steelers should stick with him, because you can't yank a young QB, they will struggle. Same point with J.P.

However, the scenarios are totally different. Roethlisberger has actually shown something in this league and proven he can win games, including the coveted Super Bowl. Granted, he has a better team around him than the Bills, but he he still goes out and plays the games, still gets it done.

Losman hasn't gotten anything done. Yes, he has lesser talent around him, but he has not been an asset to the team himself, he has been a liability, or at best, a neutral factor who didn't "lose" the games.

In addition, it happens to be that Losman should also not get pulled, like Roethlisberger, but for two totally different reasons. Roethlisberger is a young QB who is a proven winner. He is struggling now, but Cowher and the team knows that they are probably better off riding Ben's horse for the long-term. After all, he's led them to the playoffs twice, and the Super Bowl.

Losman should continue to start because the Bills frankly have nowhere else to go. Nall is a retread, and Holcomb has no arm left. The team is not very talented, and is getting blown out of the waters. There is no other choice but to play Losman and hope that he shows SOMETHING, ANYTHING by the end of the season for any glimmer of hope. He hasn't shown anything yet.

Jon

Mr. Miyagi

11-01-2006, 01:20 PM

Sorry, but all three have proven more than Losman has at this point in time. Two of those guys have been to the playoffs, one has won the Super Bowl, and Philip Rivers has a winning record,
So you don't want to hear about the supporting cast, because having a winning record automatically means the QB is good. By the same logic, having a losing record means the QB must suck, right?

Then how come that doesn't apply to Roethlisberger? And I guess guys like Leinhart, Frye, Vince Young, Carr, Favre, Kitna, and Alex Smith all stink, whereas Vick, Brad Johsnon, Tony Romo, Damon Huard, and Pennington are Pro Bowl caliber guys, right?

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 01:31 PM

So you don't want to hear about the supporting cast, because having a winning record automatically means the QB is good. By the same logic, having a losing record means the QB must suck, right?

Then how come that doesn't apply to Roethlisberger? And I guess guys like Leinhart, Frye, Vince Young, Carr, Favre, Kitna, and Alex Smith all stink, whereas Vick, Brad Johsnon, Tony Romo, Damon Huard, and Pennington are Pro Bowl caliber guys, right?

To answer your question, all good teams do have good quarterbacks. They are good in their own way. I don't personally like the term "managing the game," because all good QB's need to make plays, in addition to not make mistakes. Huard is playing good football now. Romo has only played one game, but Sunday night in his first start he certainly played a better game than Losman ever has against a good football team. Brad Johnson, while not flashy, is a proven winner who gets the job done. Vick is a pro-bowl caliber player, not sure why that's a shock? Pennington is a good steady QB too.

Favre is a proven winner, not sure why he is grouped in there. Leinart, Frye, Young, and Smith are all young, so largely unproven. However, even Young has won a couple of games since he's taken over, more than what can be said about J.P., and the Titans aren't overly talented. Frye is about the same boat as J.P. A young guy that hasn't shown much on a team that's not very talented. He and Walter are probably the closest QB's now that you could say are J.P.'s equals. Smith and Leinart are much more proven college prospects than Losman, and have had better games in their short careers than Losman has had. That being said, they are largely unproven, and overall aren't assets to their teams as of yet. They still have a long way to go. Carr has not gotten it done. He's in the same boat as J.P. However, at this point in time, I'd rather take Carr, but that's my preference. Kitna is a mediocre journeyman QB at best, kinda like a Holcomb.

So yeah, I hold to my statement. Any other questions?

Jon

ublinkwescore

11-01-2006, 01:36 PM

Fair enough, but the point still remains... there are many people here who like to compare Losman to Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, and Philip Rivers, among others. Sorry, but all three have proven more than Losman has at this point in time. Two of those guys have been to the playoffs, one has won the Super Bowl, and Philip Rivers has a winning record, all things J.P. Losman hasn't come close to sniffing in his three years. I don't want to hear about supporting cast, and so-and-so got to play earlier. If Losman was all that and a bag of chips, he'd have been playing the last two years, and perhaps his first year.

The guy has not shown it yet. We hope he will, but he has shown nothing so far.

Time for J.P. to put the big boy pants on and start to do his part in helping the team win. He has to not be a "neutral" factor who doesn't make mistakes, and he definitely can't be a liability. He has to become and asset that improves our chances of winning.

It all starts Sunday.

Jon

And all of those guys have offensive lines too. the Steelers line looked like crap against the Raiders from what I heard - not that I'm saying Roethlisberger has looked good at any time this season - he hasn't, but his line looked like crap, and now he's suddenly got a bigger spotlight on him for sucking.

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 02:01 PM

And all of those guys have offensive lines too. the Steelers line looked like crap against the Raiders from what I heard - not that I'm saying Roethlisberger has looked good at any time this season - he hasn't, but his line looked like crap, and now he's suddenly got a bigger spotlight on him for sucking.

You're preaching to the choir. I have said all along it all starts on the offensive and defensive lines. No question.

However, the lines may be a liability and that trickles down to the rest of the team, but that doesn't mean a guy like Losman can't make SOME plays or do SOMETHING that helps the team play better.

Look, this team is not going to go 8-8, 10-6, whatever this year if Losman all of a sudden starts playing gangbusters. The lines are too crappy, there are too many holes. However, I don't think it's out of the realm that with this line he can throw for 250+ yards in the heat of the game (NOT in mop-up duty in the 4th quarter when we are already down by 20 points and he can pad his stats -- which is what he's done the last 3 weeks), cut down on the turnovers, and make some plays. We may not win, but whatever, the team sucks as a whole.

Look at the Lakers last night. Without Kobe, they barely stood a chance agains the Suns, yet guys stepped up in their little roles and made some plays. They ended up winning pretty big. Losman just has to be one of those guys that's an asset to his team, not a liability.

Jon

Mr. Cynical

11-01-2006, 02:05 PM

Ben > JP.

End of line.

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 02:08 PM

Ben > JP.

End of line.

Thank you.

Jon

X-Era

11-01-2006, 02:40 PM

Fair enough, but the point still remains... there are many people here who like to compare Losman to Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, and Philip Rivers, among others. Sorry, but all three have proven more than Losman has at this point in time. Two of those guys have been to the playoffs, one has won the Super Bowl, and Philip Rivers has a winning record, all things J.P. Losman hasn't come close to sniffing in his three years. I don't want to hear about supporting cast, and so-and-so got to play earlier. If Losman was all that and a bag of chips, he'd have been playing the last two years, and perhaps his first year.

The guy has not shown it yet. We hope he will, but he has shown nothing so far.

Time for J.P. to put the big boy pants on and start to do his part in helping the team win. He has to not be a "neutral" factor who doesn't make mistakes, and he definitely can't be a liability. He has to become and asset that improves our chances of winning.

It all starts Sunday.

Jon

Ohh, I forgot, the reigning champs start to look mediocre, Roth throws 4 ints but hes allowed too, hes still great.

This whole post reiterates the fact that the QB play is usualy merely a highly visible sympton of a deeper overall problem.

Your arguement is hypocritical. You dont want me to point out that many other proven QB's have struggled and to be patient, but you would argue that JP has to play like a proven stud.

X-Era

11-01-2006, 02:46 PM

You're preaching to the choir. I have said all along it all starts on the offensive and defensive lines. No question.

However, the lines may be a liability and that trickles down to the rest of the team, but that doesn't mean a guy like Losman can't make SOME plays or do SOMETHING that helps the team play better.

Look, this team is not going to go 8-8, 10-6, whatever this year if Losman all of a sudden starts playing gangbusters. The lines are too crappy, there are too many holes. However, I don't think it's out of the realm that with this line he can throw for 250+ yards in the heat of the game (NOT in mop-up duty in the 4th quarter when we are already down by 20 points and he can pad his stats -- which is what he's done the last 3 weeks), cut down on the turnovers, and make some plays. We may not win, but whatever, the team sucks as a whole.

Look at the Lakers last night. Without Kobe, they barely stood a chance agains the Suns, yet guys stepped up in their little roles and made some plays. They ended up winning pretty big. Losman just has to be one of those guys that's an asset to his team, not a liability.

Jon

Right like Roth is an assett right now?

Roth is just fine. The QB's play is usually a red flag that the team isnt doing very well. Thats the case with the Steelers. I believe JP is also just fine but that our team isnt doing very well. The comparison stands. In fact I challenge anyone to show me a QB who played like a pro-bowler or even a great QB on a team that lost most of its games or had a record like ours.

Its easy, haters believe if we lose its because of JP, if we win it was a great team effort.

Fact is BOTH are TEAM wins or losses.

JP cant be expected to win games for us plain and simple. And if the rest of the team wont win games for us, expect plenty of losses. Buld a team that can win, Losman will develop under it, and then WHEN FULLY DEVELOPED, Losman can carry the team to wins.

Thats the correct progression, no other version works.

Inetpub

11-01-2006, 02:58 PM

Romes

11-01-2006, 02:59 PM

:deadhorse:

Inetpub

11-01-2006, 02:59 PM

ROB JOHNSON! Google loves Rob Johnson!!

Inetpub

11-01-2006, 03:01 PM

MIKE WILLIAMS!! Come rescue us from this miserable season! I blame Mike Williams for our losing record. If we still had him, We'd have a winning record. Ever since he left, we are 2-5!

Inetpub

11-01-2006, 03:02 PM

Akili SMITH!!! Ralph find the MAN and SHOW HIM THE MONEY!

Inetpub

11-01-2006, 03:03 PM

:deadhorse:

THANK YOU!

X-Era

11-01-2006, 04:49 PM

Yet another garbage post by a nuthugger to make excuses for JP's play.

Did I hear you mention Akili Smith in there?

AKKKKiiiiiiilllllllllli SMITHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! That boy is going places!!!

AKILI FOR PRESIDENT!

Your on a roll into the dumper.

I made no excuses for JP. I merely attached the teams misfortunes to the team.

JP's mistakes will be minimized with a better team, the Roth analogy as well as others show plenty of evidence to support this theory.

Logic is something JP Hater butt-humpers wont understand.

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 04:54 PM

Right like Roth is an assett right now?

Roth is just fine. The QB's play is usually a red flag that the team isnt doing very well. Thats the case with the Steelers. I believe JP is also just fine but that our team isnt doing very well. The comparison stands. In fact I challenge anyone to show me a QB who played like a pro-bowler or even a great QB on a team that lost most of its games or had a record like ours.

Its easy, haters believe if we lose its because of JP, if we win it was a great team effort.

Fact is BOTH are TEAM wins or losses.

JP cant be expected to win games for us plain and simple. And if the rest of the team wont win games for us, expect plenty of losses. Buld a team that can win, Losman will develop under it, and then WHEN FULLY DEVELOPED, Losman can carry the team to wins.

Thats the correct progression, no other version works.

1. Roethlisberger is not playing like an asset right now. However, he has played like an asset over the past couple of years, and has clearly demonstrated that with some big games, playoff appearances, and a Super Bowl ring. Losman has not shown to date that he can be an asset.

2. I never said we are losing solely because of J.P. What I'm saying is he is not doing anything to help the team overall win. His "good games" he is a neutral factor that doesn't sink the ship, and he has had several bad games.

3. As for QB's that have had good play on losing teams... Dan Marino, John Elway, Archie Manning, Trent Green, Bernie Kosar, I could go on and on. You can still play admirably on a bad team. Doesn't mean you'll win, but you can put up good numbers and help the team considerably. Yes, the Bills' line is bad, but Losman should still be able to make some plays. He should be able to do SOMETHING out there other than throw interceptions, fumble, and overall not make any plays. Doesn't mean the Bills will win, but at least he'll be doing his part.

Jon

Inetpub

11-01-2006, 05:20 PM

Your on a roll into the dumper.

I made no excuses for JP. I merely attached the teams misfortunes to the team.

JP's mistakes will be minimized with a better team, the Roth analogy as well as others show plenty of evidence to support this theory.

Logic is something JP Hater butt-humpers wont understand.

LOL.
:stupid: :rofl: :lol!:

JP's mistakes will be minimized with a better team? ITS JP's MISTAKES! The Roth analogy does nothing since Roth has won a SB and has a winning record. JP, well hes JP.

As for your Logic crap, a JP Hater and a JP Butt-humper are 2 different things. Thats contradictory and you combining them is about as logical as...JP as a good quarterback. LOL.

If you think an analogy is evidence, obviously you failed science. EVIDENCE is FACT. Analogy is opinion. Dont confuse them.

:horsecrap:lolhit::poop:

Inetpub

11-01-2006, 05:23 PM

:crap::stfu::boom::busted::poop::horsecrap:lolpoint::horsecrap:spammer::spam::lol!:

X-Era

11-01-2006, 06:25 PM

1. Roethlisberger is not playing like an asset right now. However, he has played like an asset over the past couple of years, and has clearly demonstrated that with some big games, playoff appearances, and a Super Bowl ring. Losman has not shown to date that he can be an asset.

2. I never said we are losing solely because of J.P. What I'm saying is he is not doing anything to help the team overall win. His "good games" he is a neutral factor that doesn't sink the ship, and he has had several bad games.

3. As for QB's that have had good play on losing teams... Dan Marino, John Elway, Archie Manning, Trent Green, Bernie Kosar, I could go on and on. You can still play admirably on a bad team. Doesn't mean you'll win, but you can put up good numbers and help the team considerably. Yes, the Bills' line is bad, but Losman should still be able to make some plays. He should be able to do SOMETHING out there other than throw interceptions, fumble, and overall not make any plays. Doesn't mean the Bills will win, but at least he'll be doing his part.

Jon

Your examples are very bad. ST Louis was a SB team when Green was on them, KC is a perrenial playoff team.

The others you mention Elway, Marino, Manning are hall of famers. If your point is that JP isnt a hall of famer, your right he isnt, yet. Maybe he will be one, maybe not. Kosar was a decent player for the Browns. I think Kosar may be an exception to the rule.

You seem to say theres plenty of QB's who play great on a crappy team. Sorry, but I dont see plenty if any in todays NFL.

X-Era

11-01-2006, 06:29 PM

LOL.
:stupid: :rofl: :lol!:

JP's mistakes will be minimized with a better team? ITS JP's MISTAKES! The Roth analogy does nothing since Roth has won a SB and has a winning record. JP, well hes JP.

As for your Logic crap, a JP Hater and a JP Butt-humper are 2 different things. Thats contradictory and you combining them is about as logical as...JP as a good quarterback. LOL.

If you think an analogy is evidence, obviously you failed science. EVIDENCE is FACT. Analogy is opinion. Dont confuse them.

:horsecrap:lolhit::poop:

Turns out its you who needs the science lesson. Evidence can be nothing more than hints of a theory. It takes data to back the theory and prove it to be correct. Fact is when a theory has been proven to be correct.

The point that you miss is that when JP is on a better team, the team is better, he needs to try to force things less, and makes less mistakes.

BTW, I work in research at a fortune 500 company. Im not a complete moron, I still am missing a few things.

Finally, JP Haters ARE in fact butt-humpers. They hump the butts of other haters. Its a virtual high fiving thing between co-haters. Kind of like hate feeds more hate.

X-Era

11-01-2006, 06:34 PM

LOL.
:stupid: :rofl: :lol!:

JP's mistakes will be minimized with a better team? ITS JP's MISTAKES! The Roth analogy does nothing since Roth has won a SB and has a winning record. JP, well hes JP.

As for your Logic crap, a JP Hater and a JP Butt-humper are 2 different things. Thats contradictory and you combining them is about as logical as...JP as a good quarterback. LOL.

If you think an analogy is evidence, obviously you failed science. EVIDENCE is FACT. Analogy is opinion. Dont confuse them.

:horsecrap:lolhit::poop:

Wait, you screwed up your own Roth arguement. The Steelers are not playing like the Steelers and Roths is not playing like Roth. You say that Roth already proved hes a SB QB to you, but he still threw 4 ints last week, using your "brain" that means Roth lost the games and that Roth sucks.

Or did the Steelers lose the games and Roth was just one of the players who lost?

Do all wins and losses reflect on the QB or not? Is Roth the reason they are losing or is Roth just fine and the team sucks?

You cant have it both ways, your arguement is erronious and weak. PERIOD!

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 07:05 PM

Your examples are very bad. ST Louis was a SB team when Green was on them, KC is a perrenial playoff team.

The others you mention Elway, Marino, Manning are hall of famers. If your point is that JP isnt a hall of famer, your right he isnt, yet. Maybe he will be one, maybe not. Kosar was a decent player for the Browns. I think Kosar may be an exception to the rule.

You seem to say theres plenty of QB's who play great on a crappy team. Sorry, but I dont see plenty if any in todays NFL.

Alright smart ass...

This was the statement you made, and I implore you to eat your words:

"In fact I challenge anyone to show me a QB who played like a pro-bowler or even a great QB on a team that lost most of its games or had a record like ours."

Example 1: Trent Green

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
1998 WAS 15 278 509 54.6 3441 6.8 23 75 11 81.8
2002 KAN 16 287 470 61.1 3690 7.9 26 99 13 92.6
2004 KAN 16 369 556 66.4 4591 8.3 27 70 17 95.2

Team records those years:
1998: 6-10
2002: 8-8
2004: 7-9

Verdict? Pretty good QB on some bad teams

Example 2: Marc Bulger

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
2002 STL 7 138 214 64.5 1826 8.5 14 58 6 101.5
2004 STL 14 321 485 66.2 3964 8.2 21 56 14 93.7
2005 STL 8 192 287 66.9 2297 8.0 14 57 9 94.4

Team records those years:

2002: 7-9
2004: 8-8
2005: 6-10

Verdict? Are you going to tell me that Marc Bulger is a bad quarterback?

Example 3: Jake Delhomme

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
2004 CAR 16 310 533 58.2 3886 7.3 29 63 15 87.3

Team record that year:

2004: 7-9

Verdict? I guess Jake Delhomme sucks too, eh?

Example 4: Chad Pennington

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
2003 NYJ 10 189 297 63.6 2139 7.2 13 65 12 82.9

Team record that year:

2003: 6-10

Verdict? You're not going to tell me Chad Pennington is not a good quarterback are you? He was only the NFL passing champion in 2002. We're 4/4 here for playoff quarterbacks. Check that, multiple playoff appearance quarterbacks. None are hall of famers either. Should we keep going? Sure.

Example 5: Mark Brunell

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
1995 JAC 13 201 346 58.1 2168 6.3 15 45 7 82.6
2000 JAC 16 311 512 60.7 3640 7.1 20 67 14 84.0
2001 JAC 15 289 473 61.1 3309 7.0 19 44 13 84.1
2002 JAC 15 245 416 58.9 2788 6.7 17 79 7 85.7
2004 WAS 9 118 237 49.8 1194 5.0 7 49 6 63.9

Team records those years:

1995: 4-12
2000: 7-9
2001: 6-10
2002: 6-10
2004: 6-10

Verdict? The guy has taken two franchises to the playoffs and posted years with records of 10-6, 9-7, 14-2, 11-5, and 11-5. Not a bad quarterback at all.

Example 6: Steve McNair

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
1996 TEN 10 88 143 61.5 1197 8.4 6 83 4 90.6
1997 TEN 16 216 415 52.0 2665 6.4 14 55 13 70.4
1998 TEN 16 289 492 58.7 3228 6.6 15 47 10 80.1
2001 TEN 15 264 431 61.3 3350 7.8 21 71 12 90.2
2005 TEN 14 292 476 61.3 3161 6.6 16 57 11 82.4

Team records those years:

1996: 8-8
1997: 8-8
1998: 8-8
2001: 7-9
2005: 4-12

Verdict? Super Bowl quarterback with teams of 13-3, 13-3, 12-4, and 11-5, leading a 5-2 Ravens team right now. McNair doesn't suck. Oh yeah, he was Co-MVP one year too.

Overall? Looks like you just lost yourself an argument there pal. Not to mention there are plenty of Hall-of-Fame and other quarterbacks who had to play years on bad teams but still were able to produce.

The point? You can still excel and put up decent numbers on a bad team. Just because your team totally sucks doesn't mean you (or in this case J.P. Losman) has a free pass to put up bad numbers and turn the ball over gratuitously. He has to start doing his part. If he wants to be compared to quarterbacks such as the ones above, with also a "Brett Favre arm" or "Michael Vick feet" he needs to start putting up numbers like some of these guys, whether the team is good or not. It may not lead to victories, but he'll at least be doing his part. That's what all of these good/great quarterbacks have done. Time to put the big boy pants on.

Jon

Typ0

11-01-2006, 07:30 PM

Turns out its you who needs the science lesson. Evidence can be nothing more than hints of a theory. It takes data to back the theory and prove it to be correct. Fact is when a theory has been proven to be correct.

Evidence is data that either backs or refutes a hypothesis or theory. What are you talking about "hints of a theory"? Did some dorky high school science teacher tell you that?

Also, fact is not when a theory has proven to be correct...in fact a theory is inherently correct. Fact, is a simple irrefutable observation. Think about it.

DraftBoy

11-01-2006, 07:34 PM

This thread is vearing close to being flushed, keep it on topic, boys.

Mudflap great posts!!

X-Era

11-01-2006, 07:44 PM

Alright smart ass...

This was the statement you made, and I implore you to eat your words:

"In fact I challenge anyone to show me a QB who played like a pro-bowler or even a great QB on a team that lost most of its games or had a record like ours."

Example 1: Trent Green

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
1998 WAS 15 278 509 54.6 3441 6.8 23 75 11 81.8
2002 KAN 16 287 470 61.1 3690 7.9 26 99 13 92.6
2004 KAN 16 369 556 66.4 4591 8.3 27 70 17 95.2

Team records those years:
1998: 6-10
2002: 8-8
2004: 7-9

Verdict? Pretty good QB on some bad teams

Example 2: Marc Bulger

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
2002 STL 7 138 214 64.5 1826 8.5 14 58 6 101.5
2004 STL 14 321 485 66.2 3964 8.2 21 56 14 93.7
2005 STL 8 192 287 66.9 2297 8.0 14 57 9 94.4

Team records those years:

2002: 7-9
2004: 8-8
2005: 6-10

Verdict? Are you going to tell me that Marc Bulger is a bad quarterback?

Example 3: Jake Delhomme

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
2004 CAR 16 310 533 58.2 3886 7.3 29 63 15 87.3

Team record that year:

2004: 7-9

Verdict? I guess Jake Delhomme sucks too, eh?

Example 4: Chad Pennington

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
2003 NYJ 10 189 297 63.6 2139 7.2 13 65 12 82.9

Team record that year:

2003: 6-10

Verdict? You're not going to tell me Chad Pennington is not a good quarterback are you? He was only the NFL passing champion in 2002. We're 4/4 here for playoff quarterbacks. Check that, multiple playoff appearance quarterbacks. None are hall of famers either. Should we keep going? Sure.

Example 5: Mark Brunell

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
1995 JAC 13 201 346 58.1 2168 6.3 15 45 7 82.6
2000 JAC 16 311 512 60.7 3640 7.1 20 67 14 84.0
2001 JAC 15 289 473 61.1 3309 7.0 19 44 13 84.1
2002 JAC 15 245 416 58.9 2788 6.7 17 79 7 85.7
2004 WAS 9 118 237 49.8 1194 5.0 7 49 6 63.9

Team records those years:

1995: 4-12
2000: 7-9
2001: 6-10
2002: 6-10
2004: 6-10

Verdict? The guy has taken two franchises to the playoffs and posted years with records of 10-6, 9-7, 14-2, 11-5, and 11-5. Not a bad quarterback at all.

Example 6: Steve McNair

YEAR TEAM G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
1996 TEN 10 88 143 61.5 1197 8.4 6 83 4 90.6
1997 TEN 16 216 415 52.0 2665 6.4 14 55 13 70.4
1998 TEN 16 289 492 58.7 3228 6.6 15 47 10 80.1
2001 TEN 15 264 431 61.3 3350 7.8 21 71 12 90.2
2005 TEN 14 292 476 61.3 3161 6.6 16 57 11 82.4

Team records those years:

1996: 8-8
1997: 8-8
1998: 8-8
2001: 7-9
2005: 4-12

Verdict? Super Bowl quarterback with teams of 13-3, 13-3, 12-4, and 11-5, leading a 5-2 Ravens team right now. McNair doesn't suck. Oh yeah, he was Co-MVP one year too.

Overall? Looks like you just lost yourself an argument there pal. Not to mention there are plenty of Hall-of-Fame and other quarterbacks who had to play years on bad teams but still were able to produce.

The point? You can still excel and put up decent numbers on a bad team. Just because your team totally sucks doesn't mean you (or in this case J.P. Losman) has a free pass to put up bad numbers and turn the ball over gratuitously. He has to start doing his part. If he wants to be compared to quarterbacks such as the ones above, with also a "Brett Favre arm" or "Michael Vick feet" he needs to start putting up numbers like some of these guys, whether the team is good or not. It may not lead to victories, but he'll at least be doing his part. That's what all of these good/great quarterbacks have done. Time to put the big boy pants on.

Jon

Wait a sec. Why the name calling, who being a smart ass. Im trying to have an intelligent debate here.

Not a single record you mentioned is one attainable by the 2006 Buffalo Bills other than the 1995 Brunell led team. Now, that obviosuly isnt fact but an opinion, we will see how it plays out. The next point is that not a single player you mention with stats is a hall of famer or even a top 5 QB in this league. You can throw out passing yards as an example and give me guys like maybe Delhomme or Green, but again they have only done this on teams that are playoff bound. They are known for being very good teams throughout the league.

The other point to make in this evidence is that every person you mention has been playing for many years. JP has not.

Now, that said. If the team is drastically improved, or wins should follow. And if my theory holds true, JP should play better as well. If JP, on an 8 and 8 team for example cant post numbers similar to those you listed, I agree, the stories over, move on to someone else.

But there is simply NO way to not correlate QB play to overall team play. And if your point is that it would be NICE for JP to play well DESPITE the team playing poorly, I would agree. But if in fact, we are saying its REQUIRED, thats taking it too far, IMO. Im not willing to do that.

I want to see JP get better. How will we judge this? Well, unfortunately, it most likely wont be through stats. My Roth post makes this point. Just because Roth played like crap in several games, does NOT mean that he is a crappy QB. The same "standard" holds true for JP. Which leaves us to thing more intangible like leadership, decisiveness, poise. One fan may see him make a bad throw, another fan may see him make a dozen good ones.

This battle will rage on unless JP silences his critics with great play. Unfortunately, I dont see him easily doing that with our lack of talent/production. IMO, he should be judged in part by the team he plays on, not despite them.

PECKERWOOD

11-01-2006, 07:51 PM

Is no one here reasonable? I dont want anybody to be partial to their opinions, but with all due respect its all black and white here. Why cant more fans take the roll of undecided on JP? Give him the rest of the season for gosh sake. Patience is a very nice attribute to have. Now I would be lying if I said, I dont have any doubts about JP, but lets just see the guy play for the rest of the season. He looked awful against New England, which kind of bloated this whole situation up. If JP comes out and has a fire game against GB, alot of people will shut right up. So fellow fans, I encourage all of you haters and lovers alike, to take a more patient and observant role! Let's wait till the end of the season before we make our final judgements.

X-Era

11-01-2006, 07:52 PM

Evidence is data that either backs or refutes a hypothesis or theory. What are you talking about "hints of a theory"? Did some dorky high school science teacher tell you that?

Also, fact is not when a theory has proven to be correct...in fact a theory is inherently correct. Fact, is a simple irrefutable observation. Think about it.

Nice try. Theres a difference between the meaning of my post and the actual words that I have used. I should have said that evidence can hint TO a theory or even against it. Rather than OF a theory. Scientific method speaks to formulating a hypothesis, and then obtaining data to prove/disprove the hypothesis. We cant do that, we have no control over the experiment here.

This is silly talk anyways. NFL history, including stats, is viable evidence to use to support an opinion. However, there is NO way to predict the future. Therefore, it is impossible to "label" any player as "never will" or "always will". Its crap.

Theres plenty of reason to believe that JP will get better, and theres plenty of reason to believe he wont.

To me, I just cant see the point in "enjoying" football by always looking at the cynical side.

X-Era

11-01-2006, 07:54 PM

SABURZFAN

11-01-2006, 08:16 PM

Typ0

11-01-2006, 08:19 PM

Nice try. Theres a difference between the meaning of my post and the actual words that I have used. I should have said that evidence can hint TO a theory or even against it. Rather than OF a theory. Scientific method speaks to formulating a hypothesis, and then obtaining data to prove/disprove the hypothesis. We cant do that, we have no control over the experiment here.

This is silly talk anyways. NFL history, including stats, is viable evidence to use to support an opinion. However, there is NO way to predict the future. Therefore, it is impossible to "label" any player as "never will" or "always will". Its crap.

Theres plenty of reason to believe that JP will get better, and theres plenty of reason to believe he wont.

To me, I just cant see the point in "enjoying" football by always looking at the cynical side.

not a try. Example. Kepler originally believed the copernican system was an accurate model of the heavens. In the copernican system the planets revolved around the sun in a circle. Reluctantly, kepler abandoned this belief after working with Tycho Brahe's data and deduced that the orbits of the planets were an elipse. He then went on to develop three very important laws in astrophysics based on this observed fact. One has to remember that a circle is an elipse and keplers math was just not working when he was talking in circles. Once he made the proper adjustment it turned out in all cases he had developed some very important mathematical principles.

Now, let's talk football. When we are talking about statistics in football we aren't talking about the same kind of math. Here, the most important thing to remember is that correlation does not imply causality. The only time there may be some causality implied is when there is a one to one correlation and even then it may not be the case. You will never see statistical evidence used in the way that Kepler used algabraic evidence to describe the heavens. In Kepler's case he most certainly could predict the future. For example, he could very accurately predict a solar eclipse. In Jimmy the Greeks world, he could not predict that the Bills would lose to the Packers this week with absolute certainty...because one team having a crappy QB and the other having a good QB does not imply any causality of winning and losing. It does, however, make the chances better the Packers will win.

Typ0

11-01-2006, 08:21 PM

Theres a difference between the meaning of my post and the actual words that I have used.

would you like to banter some about literary theory? About what constitutes an author and how meaning is arbitrary? I'm game for the science talk and this conversation so just let me know.

X-Era

11-01-2006, 08:52 PM

not a try. Example. Kepler originally believed the copernican system was an accurate model of the heavens. In the copernican system the planets revolved around the sun in a circle. Reluctantly, kepler abandoned this belief after working with Tycho Brahe's data and deduced that the orbits of the planets were an elipse. He then went on to develop three very important laws in astrophysics based on this observed fact. One has to remember that a circle is an elipse and keplers math was just not working when he was talking in circles. Once he made the proper adjustment it turned out in all cases he had developed some very important mathematical principles.

Now, let's talk football. When we are talking about statistics in football we aren't talking about the same kind of math. Here, the most important thing to remember is that correlation does not imply causality. The only time there may be some causality implied is when there is a one to one correlation and even then it may not be the case. You will never see statistical evidence used in the way that Kepler used algabraic evidence to describe the heavens. In Kepler's case he most certainly could predict the future. For example, he could very accurately predict a solar eclipse. In Jimmy the Greeks world, he could not predict that the Bills would lose to the Packers this week with absolute certainty...because one team having a crappy QB and the other having a good QB does not imply any causality of winning and losing. It does, however, make the chances better the Packers will win.

Great so if I just run a T test, F test, and/or ANOVA, I can statistically prove to say six sigma whether or not JP = RJ or whether JP = BR.

Save your brain and mine. Its an inaccurate science and one that simply cant be quantified, you know that. The truth is elusive, a variable itself, and more a matter of perception rather than an equation in this case. There are almost limitless variables. Which simply points out that in a system with almost limitless variables, attemtping to indentify interactions, correlations, etc... is simply futile.

My point is that any definitive "answer" post given by you or anyone is simply nothing more than opinion. Now, I can read through your posts and assume that you are the next Will Hunting. But, if in fact you were that smart, you would be too busy cracking codes for the CIA to have time to debate something so trivial as whether some guy is a good QB or not. In my opinion, you are not in fact the next Will Hunting, but rather, both you and I are much more like the next Corkey from Life Goes On.

As I have stated already, Im not a complete moron, I still have some pieces missing.

So rather than try to somehow impress me with your ability to properly use the vernacular of our beloved country, why not simply stick to the subject.

The subject is simple. Not you, nor I, nor the Bills have any damn clue what JP will become. Any attempt to do just that is like predicting the lottery.

Mudflap1

11-01-2006, 08:52 PM

Wait a sec. Why the name calling, who being a smart ass. Im trying to have an intelligent debate here.

Not a single record you mentioned is one attainable by the 2006 Buffalo Bills other than the 1995 Brunell led team. Now, that obviosuly isnt fact but an opinion, we will see how it plays out. The next point is that not a single player you mention with stats is a hall of famer or even a top 5 QB in this league. You can throw out passing yards as an example and give me guys like maybe Delhomme or Green, but again they have only done this on teams that are playoff bound. They are known for being very good teams throughout the league.

The other point to make in this evidence is that every person you mention has been playing for many years. JP has not.

Now, that said. If the team is drastically improved, or wins should follow. And if my theory holds true, JP should play better as well. If JP, on an 8 and 8 team for example cant post numbers similar to those you listed, I agree, the stories over, move on to someone else.

But there is simply NO way to not correlate QB play to overall team play. And if your point is that it would be NICE for JP to play well DESPITE the team playing poorly, I would agree. But if in fact, we are saying its REQUIRED, thats taking it too far, IMO. Im not willing to do that.

I want to see JP get better. How will we judge this? Well, unfortunately, it most likely wont be through stats. My Roth post makes this point. Just because Roth played like crap in several games, does NOT mean that he is a crappy QB. The same "standard" holds true for JP. Which leaves us to thing more intangible like leadership, decisiveness, poise. One fan may see him make a bad throw, another fan may see him make a dozen good ones.

This battle will rage on unless JP silences his critics with great play. Unfortunately, I dont see him easily doing that with our lack of talent/production. IMO, he should be judged in part by the team he plays on, not despite them.

Dude, you are soooooo wrong here with some of this stuff!

First off, I will lay of the namecalling, but you flat out said I was very badly making my point. This is completely untrue and ignorant.

As for you suggesting not a single record I listed is attainable... What? 6-10 is not attaintable? 4-12 is not attainable? Go back and look at those records buddy, there are several 4-7 win teams in there. Sorry, but last time I checked those are attainable.

Your next statement doesn't make any sense either. Earlier I said guys like Marino and Elway have been on crappy teams but had good seasons. You said those guys are Hall of Famers, and J.P. is clearly not a Hall of Famer, which insinuates that those comparisons you are admitting are not "apples to apples." Fine, but don't come back and say the quarterbacks I picked are bad examples because they aren't Hall of Famers, but are "known" to be on playoff teams. Brunell played on some bad Jax teams. So did McNair. So did Green. Why do they get a free pass and can't be compared to anybody (like J.P.) because they were all supposedly on "playoff caliber" (or caliper as you would say) teams their whole careers? Who makes these assumptions? If the team was 4-12 or 6-10, they collectively sucked and didn't get the job done. I'll give you another example: Donovan McNabb was having a good season last year personally until he got injured even though the Eagles had a losing record. So Donovan can't be compared to J.P. because the Eagles are looked at as a "playoff caliber" (caliper) team every year, but the Bills can't be looked at as a "playoff caliber" (caliper) team ever with J.P. Losman on them, until he has a magical season and takes them to the playoffs? Or is Donovan McNabb looked at as "Hall of Famer" type QB, so it's no use comparing J.P. to him?

Your last point was that the guys I listed have played for many years, J.P. has not. Well, if they are admittedly good QB's on teams that are known as "playoff caliber" (caliper) teams, shouldn't they continue to make their teams better and never have losing seasons? Isn't J.P. in the league now for 3 years? Wasn't this team 9-7 twenty short months ago? Isn't it time for J.P. to be held accountable?

I guess my point with you here is two-fold: these QB's I mentioned are not the greatest in the world, but they play within themselves and still do THEIR job, which is to play good football, regardless of what the team around them can do and whether they ultimately win games or not. They can still put up decent numbers and do what they can to help their teams win. This is what Losman is lacking, and your argument is that he can't play well until the team is better. That's crazy.

I simply do not agree that J.P. needs to wait for the team around him to get better in order for him to get better. He can get better right now. He might be at his best once the team around him gets better, but he needs to step up and start making some plays, and stop making bonehead mistakes. He needs to be a leader. Sure the offensive line sucks. Sure that slows down the running game. Sure the defensive line sucks. But if he doesn't suck, he should still be able to accomplish some things on the football field.

What you said that did make sense was that it's his intangibles that need improve. His stats admittedly aren't terrible for the season, they are mediocre. However, they don't demonstrate his true play. His stats don't show how he pads them in the 4th quarter of games already lost, or that he doesn't get his teammates fired up, or that he fumbles in crucial situations, or whatever. These things need to be turned around, and he needs to start making some plays.

The bottom line is correct, there will be no rest until he starts to play better. If he can do that, then he will shut up the critics.

Jon

X-Era

11-01-2006, 09:06 PM

Dude, you are soooooo wrong here with some of this stuff!

First off, I will lay of the namecalling, but you flat out said I was very badly making my point. This is completely untrue and ignorant.

As for you suggesting not a single record I listed is attainable... What? 6-10 is not attaintable? 4-12 is not attainable? Go back and look at those records buddy, there are several 4-7 win teams in there. Sorry, but last time I checked those are attainable.

Your next statement doesn't make any sense either. Earlier I said guys like Marino and Elway have been on crappy teams but had good seasons. You said those guys are Hall of Famers, and J.P. is clearly not a Hall of Famer, which insinuates that those comparisons you are admitting are not "apples to apples." Fine, but don't come back and say the quarterbacks I picked are bad examples because they aren't Hall of Famers, but are "known" to be on playoff teams. Brunell played on some bad Jax teams. So did McNair. So did Green. Why do they get a free pass and can't be compared to anybody (like J.P.) because they were all supposedly on "playoff caliber" (or caliper as you would say) teams their whole careers? Who makes these assumptions? If the team was 4-12 or 6-10, they collectively sucked and didn't get the job done. I'll give you another example: Donovan McNabb was having a good season last year personally until he got injured even though the Eagles had a losing record. So Donovan can't be compared to J.P. because the Eagles are looked at as a "playoff caliber" (caliper) team every year, but the Bills can't be looked at as a "playoff caliber" (caliper) team ever with J.P. Losman on them, until he has a magical season and takes them to the playoffs? Or is Donovan McNabb looked at as "Hall of Famer" type QB, so it's no use comparing J.P. to him?

Your last point was that the guys I listed have played for many years, J.P. has not. Well, if they are admittedly good QB's on teams that are known as "playoff caliber" (caliper) teams, shouldn't they continue to make their teams better and never have losing seasons? Isn't J.P. in the league now for 3 years? Wasn't this team 9-7 twenty short months ago? Isn't it time for J.P. to be held accountable?

I guess my point with you here is two-fold: these QB's I mentioned are not the greatest in the world, but they play within themselves and still do THEIR job, which is to play good football, regardless of what the team around them can do and whether they ultimately win games or not. They can still put up decent numbers and do what they can to help their teams win. This is what Losman is lacking, and your argument is that he can't play well until the team is better. That's crazy.

I simply do not agree that J.P. needs to wait for the team around him to get better in order for him to get better. He can get better right now. He might be at his best once the team around him gets better, but he needs to step up and start making some plays, and stop making bonehead mistakes. He needs to be a leader. Sure the offensive line sucks. Sure that slows down the running game. Sure the defensive line sucks. But if he doesn't suck, he should still be able to accomplish some things on the football field.

What you said that did make sense was that it's his intangibles that need improve. His stats admittedly aren't terrible for the season, they are mediocre. However, they don't demonstrate his true play. His stats don't show how he pads them in the 4th quarter of games already lost, or that he doesn't get his teammates fired up, or that he fumbles in crucial situations, or whatever. These things need to be turned around, and he needs to start making some plays.

The bottom line is correct, there will be no rest until he starts to play better. If he can do that, then he will shut up the critics.

Jon

You argue that McNair, Bulger, Green are guys that have played well on bad teams. Yet I remember a Tenn team beating us in the Music City Miracle led by McNair. I remember Bulger not being anything but a backup until he managed to lead the recent Super Bowl winning Rams to decent outtings. I remember Trent Green going to KC after showing that he could in fact battle head to head with Kurt Warner for the STL job in the same SB winning team.

You mention Donovan McNabb last year, but again, this was a guy that had gone to a SB already and the Eagles are no slough team regardless of one bad season.

We havent even sniffed the playoffs in years. Now, you want to take a 16 NON-CONTINUOUS start QB and put him on a 5 and 11 team, and you dont expect him to struggle?

Were in screaming agreement on all but the "standards" that you and I think JP should be held accountable to.

JP needs to play well enough to put enough points on the board to win, but that alos means that we must keep our opponent from putting up more points than us. That all he needs to do.

I want the team to be better and I also want JP to be better.

Im tired and CSI is on, Ive had my fill of arguement for the evening. I agree that I would like to see JP become a star and that hasnt happened yet.

Lets both hope it does.

Inetpub

11-02-2006, 12:05 AM

When your done kissing JP's ass, join the real world and learn to accept JP isnt god. Its ok to criticize and expect your QB to be better. Your reasoning that the team needs to get better before JP does is absolute IGNORANCE.

The only way the team will get better is 1 player at a time. Either we swap players out, or they start producing. The team starts at each player being accountable for themselves and thier job. JP NEEDS to be ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS JOB!

JP needs to play well enough to put enough points on the board to win, but that alos means that we must keep our opponent from putting up more points than us. That all he needs to do.

You smoking crack? Our Defence is in the middle of the pack. Ranked 15th in about everything. Although that isnt an award winning we arent the worst. We allow an average 21 points a game. As a defense, thats right smack in the middle with the rest of the NFL. Hop into offense, we are 3rd last. Average 14 points a game. The defence is doing thier job in keeping us in games. Its the offence that isnt scoring.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=team&sort=yds&pos=def&league=nfl&season=2&year=2006

Here is a perfect stat on this. Our Give away/take away stat. We have 7 take aways. 5 from INTs and 2 from Fumbles. We have 15 give aways. 6 INT 9 Fumbles. The defence does the takeaways. The offence does the give aways. Our giveaway/take away rank is 3rd worst in the league at -8. The worst are only -9 and they are Houston and Oakland.

We havent even sniffed the playoffs in years. Now, you want to take a 16 NON-CONTINUOUS start QB and put him on a 5 and 11 team, and you dont expect him to struggle?
We put him in charge of a 9-7 team that was clad full of vets. That was a good team and Buffalo was ranked 3rd in the preseason going into JP's first starting year. Boy did that bomb. And lets not forget who gave us the 5-11 record. It was a combo JP/KH. So we really gave him a playoff ready 9-7 team that had set high goals and were pinning it on a rookie. Funny, San Diego did it well with Rivers.

The subject is simple. Not you, nor I, nor the Bills have any damn clue what JP will become. Any attempt to do just that is like predicting the lottery.
True. But humans are a creatures of habit. You being a CSI fan should realize that. Simple logic dictates that and its a fact. The only way you can judge a persons ability is by what they have done in the past. It doesnt mean he cant change, it just means it gives you an insight to what he might be able to do in the future. Example, Do you expect Chicago to win vs San Fran this weekend? If you say you cant predict it, you are right. But I would put a 1000 dollar bet on Chicago to win. I cant predict it but based on what Chicago has done this year and what San Fran has done, I have a good feeling Chicago will spank them hard. Does it mean I can predict the future? No. But I can use the past to affect my choices and decisions on the future. And same goes with JP. His past 15 games really havent shown me the improvement to a good stable QB. We dont need a HOF QB to win games. But we need a stable QB to win and until he does something to change it, his past will haunt him.

Mudflap1

11-02-2006, 12:26 AM

You argue that McNair, Bulger, Green are guys that have played well on bad teams. Yet I remember a Tenn team beating us in the Music City Miracle led by McNair. I remember Bulger not being anything but a backup until he managed to lead the recent Super Bowl winning Rams to decent outtings. I remember Trent Green going to KC after showing that he could in fact battle head to head with Kurt Warner for the STL job in the same SB winning team.

You mention Donovan McNabb last year, but again, this was a guy that had gone to a SB already and the Eagles are no slough team regardless of one bad season.

We havent even sniffed the playoffs in years. Now, you want to take a 16 NON-CONTINUOUS start QB and put him on a 5 and 11 team, and you dont expect him to struggle?

Were in screaming agreement on all but the "standards" that you and I think JP should be held accountable to.

JP needs to play well enough to put enough points on the board to win, but that alos means that we must keep our opponent from putting up more points than us. That all he needs to do.

I want the team to be better and I also want JP to be better.

Im tired and CSI is on, Ive had my fill of arguement for the evening. I agree that I would like to see JP become a star and that hasnt happened yet.

Lets both hope it does.

You challenged anyone to show where a quarterback played well on a losing team. I showed you that rather easily.

How can you say the Eagles are no slouch after last season? They were 6-10 last year and are 4-4 this year? What crystal ball do you have that tells you this? Could it be that the team, particularly the offense, is fairly average and they actually have a quarterback who makes plays and can give them an edge?

I also didn't say that I don't expect Losman to struggle. Of course I do. But if he's truly going to emerge as a good quarterback, he will start to show signs of that regardless of when the team around him gets better.

Yes, we are in agreement that J.P. needs to eventually deliver or go home. However, we are not in agreement, as you stated, about the standards he should be held to. If everyone on here wants to say "he reminds me of Doug Flutie" or "he reminds me of Brett Favre" or "he reminds me of John Elway" he needs to actually hold himself up to those comparisons. Those are the players he is trying to aspire to play as well as. There's nothing wrong with that. I think Losman himself would even tell you as much.

Jon

X-Era

11-02-2006, 08:14 AM

You challenged anyone to show where a quarterback played well on a losing team. I showed you that rather easily.

How can you say the Eagles are no slouch after last season? They were 6-10 last year and are 4-4 this year? What crystal ball do you have that tells you this? Could it be that the team, particularly the offense, is fairly average and they actually have a quarterback who makes plays and can give them an edge?

I also didn't say that I don't expect Losman to struggle. Of course I do. But if he's truly going to emerge as a good quarterback, he will start to show signs of that regardless of when the team around him gets better.

Yes, we are in agreement that J.P. needs to eventually deliver or go home. However, we are not in agreement, as you stated, about the standards he should be held to. If everyone on here wants to say "he reminds me of Doug Flutie" or "he reminds me of Brett Favre" or "he reminds me of John Elway" he needs to actually hold himself up to those comparisons. Those are the players he is trying to aspire to play as well as. There's nothing wrong with that. I think Losman himself would even tell you as much.

Jon

Im not sure that your data shows that any of these guys played like a pro-bowler on a bad team. You and Inet-whatever, both keep using players on very good teams as arguements. Thats not the same comparison. The Eagles have gone to the Superbowl, they didnt completely gut their team the next year. That means their talent level overall is Super Bowl level, and proven to be such. We are not even remotely close to them in talen t level even though our records are similar.

Besides, If you, and whomever else wants to add a perennial pro bowl QB, by all means, lets get er done. But, it would take one major move to make that happen, a move that very few if any of you would be willing to stomach. If you want to add some new draftee, that simply means yet another year of struggling. Inet-whatever points out Rivers. Last time I checked, they had a team thats gone to playoffs, and some guy named LT.

Heres what I love about this arguement. Many here say Losman is crap, yet his numbers appear to be a bit below average, and better earlier in the year. When I press people on what to do heres the answer I get:

1) Would you agree to trade a ton to get a pro bowl level QB- no
2) Would you draft a very high 1st overall QB- often the answer is no sighting other needs
3) Would you sign another teams backup- yes

So, somehow we have overwhelmingly made a huge difference by bringing in some guy who cant manage to start on his own team or drafting a later round guy? Thats just plain funny.

Back to your point, its also possible to have young QB's play bad on bad teams. Alex Smith, Daviv Carr. Does that mean they are crap? I think your point will be until proven otherwise, yes. Well, I choose to have a touch more faith.

Inetpub

11-02-2006, 08:54 AM

Inet-whatever points out Rivers. Last time I checked, they had a team thats gone to playoffs, and some guy named LT.
When we handed JP the reigns, we had a 9-7 team ready to go to the playoffs with a guy named Bledsoe.

Im not sure that your data shows that any of these guys played like a pro-bowler on a bad team. You and Inet-whatever, both keep using players on very good teams as arguements.
I have NEVER compared JP to probowlers. NEVER. Akili Smith yes. RJ HELL YA! But NEVER NEVER a probowler. I dont think he will ever be Probowl material. I did say that San Diego did it right with Rivers. But thats not comparing JP to Rivers. Thats comparing how San Diego transitioned thier QBs to how Buffalo transitioned thiers.

Heres what I love about this arguement. Many here say Losman is crap, yet his numbers appear to be a bit below average, and better earlier in the year.
Whats average or just below? his 4 Tds? There are backup QBs with more TD throws. His fumbles? He probably leads the league there. His delay of games? Is there any QB with more Delay of games than JP? His yardage? The guy has thrown for 300+ yards in garbage time vs second rate defenses.

Back to your point, its also possible to have young QB's play bad on bad teams. Alex Smith, Daviv Carr. Does that mean they are crap?No it doesnt. But it also doesnt mean they cant do thier jobs. Apparantly San Fran saw something in Alex Smith that no one else does. Maybe its the fact hes a student of the game. I dont know the kid well enough to give him props for everything but from what I hear, Alex Smith is academically one of the smartest guys off the field. Steve Young/Mannings are all students of the game. They know all the looks and Coverages out there. They can call right audibles and work from the no huddle. David Carr? He has done nothing in the league yet, but he hasnt done anything to lose his job permanantly. And if you remember, There was a HUGE HUGE HUGE media circus on the Texans to get Vince Young in the draft.

Mudflap1

11-02-2006, 10:00 AM

Dude, I'm sorry. Do the Eagles have more talent than the Bills? Probably yes. Is it by a huge margin? No, I really don't think it is. The NFL has a lot of parity. The difference between the best and the worst isn't as much as you think. That being said, the Bills are towards the bottom end of that talent pool IMO, but I don't think what separates them from a team like the Eagles is that much. I'd take our WR's over the Eagles any day. Hank Baskett? Greg Lewis? Sorry, I'd rather have Lee Evans, Roscoe Parrish, Josh Reed, and Peerless Price. I'd take Willis McGahee over their RB's every day. Westbrook is good, but he's more of a receiver type than a true runner. The Eagles do have better offensive and defensive lines, and their secondary is good. Other than that, man up I'm not sure that the Bills are far off of them at all, except for the quarterback. Their quarterback is a difference maker.

You are willing to now admit J.P. should not be compared to Pro Bowl quarterbacks or Hall of Famers. Fine. But now you only want him compared to guys that are "crappy" (which is by your sole and absolute discretion) who have "Pro Bowl" years on teams that have losing records (with "Pro Bowl" years being at your sole and absolute discretion also). Face the facts man: There are QB's out there who have produced on crappy teams. Either those guys did well enough where the teams still had a losing record but were a bit more competitive, or they did so well that the team actually had a halfway decent season. Either way, there are QB's out there who get it done. Our guy is not getting it done, and the crux of the argument here is that he doesn't need to wait for the talent level around him to get better. Good/great QB's make the talent level around them rise and get better. Great QB's keep the games close. Great QB's can still move the ball against most teams. And yes, great QB's still have bad games sometimes.

Hidden amongst all of this is the fact that you admit he needs to play better, but you are still making excuses for this guy, saying that he's going to remain the same as he is until the talent around him improves. That's bull. He can improve right now. Doesn't mean the team is going to be a winning team all of a sudden, but they might, or at least be a lot more competitive. Time to hold J.P. accountable for his job, and his job only.

Jon

PECKERWOOD

11-02-2006, 10:03 AM

Quit spamming mofo's! That is way too much **** to read, compile it down.

Mudflap1

11-02-2006, 01:14 PM

jp-era, I rest my case.

'"I think this whole team, offensively speaking, needs to be more consistent, and it's going to start with me," he said. "I think once the coaches can sit there and say, "This guy is pretty much doing everything right. He's getting the ball out on time. He's making the right reads, he's accurate,' that will pick other guys' play up. They will sit there and go, "He's taking care of his business,' and it will inspire other people."'

Guess who said this?

Jon

Typ0

11-02-2006, 02:46 PM

Great so if I just run a T test, F test, and/or ANOVA, I can statistically prove to say six sigma whether or not JP = RJ or whether JP = BR.

Save your brain and mine. Its an inaccurate science and one that simply cant be quantified, you know that. The truth is elusive, a variable itself, and more a matter of perception rather than an equation in this case. There are almost limitless variables. Which simply points out that in a system with almost limitless variables, attemtping to indentify interactions, correlations, etc... is simply futile.

My point is that any definitive "answer" post given by you or anyone is simply nothing more than opinion. Now, I can read through your posts and assume that you are the next Will Hunting. But, if in fact you were that smart, you would be too busy cracking codes for the CIA to have time to debate something so trivial as whether some guy is a good QB or not. In my opinion, you are not in fact the next Will Hunting, but rather, both you and I are much more like the next Corkey from Life Goes On.

As I have stated already, Im not a complete moron, I still have some pieces missing.

So rather than try to somehow impress me with your ability to properly use the vernacular of our beloved country, why not simply stick to the subject.

The subject is simple. Not you, nor I, nor the Bills have any damn clue what JP will become. Any attempt to do just that is like predicting the lottery.

you are the one that started talking down to people on the premise they "needed a science lesson". Now you are trying to regroup and frankly you aren't doing a very good job of it.

No, it would be silly to try and prove RJ = JP or JP = BR. Those are obviously false statements. It's kind of like saying "Favre started out bad and since JP is starting out bad he's going to have a career like Favre". That is ludicrous.

As has been stated at least a zillion times now...there are dozens of guys who fail after starting out bad compared to the guys who end up making it. JP is starting out bad. There is a bigger chance that he's going ot fail than there is he's going to succeed. Yet some people cling to the "Favre arguement" like it's some kind of justification we should suffer through more crap.

Also, if JP plays on a good team the team does not get better...it gets worse. Yes, that's my opinion but it's based on empiracle evidence. I've seen JP hold on to the ball too long and fail to throw a decent short pass that could change those situations. I didn't see Big Ben doing those things last season. I saw him do a good job of protecthing the ball and managing the offense. He wasn't anything glamorous...he just did simple things that JP has demonstrated he can't do. So I can only render the logic that if JP Losman was the QB for the Pittsburg Steelers they don't win the superbowl last year. If you don't like my opinion and think the Steelers get better (last season) with JP at the helm then you are entitled to that thinking.

X-Era

11-02-2006, 03:47 PM

When we handed JP the reigns, we had a 9-7 team ready to go to the playoffs with a guy named Bledsoe.

I have NEVER compared JP to probowlers. NEVER. Akili Smith yes. RJ HELL YA! But NEVER NEVER a probowler. I dont think he will ever be Probowl material. I did say that San Diego did it right with Rivers. But thats not comparing JP to Rivers. Thats comparing how San Diego transitioned thier QBs to how Buffalo transitioned thiers.

Whats average or just below? his 4 Tds? There are backup QBs with more TD throws. His fumbles? He probably leads the league there. His delay of games? Is there any QB with more Delay of games than JP? His yardage? The guy has thrown for 300+ yards in garbage time vs second rate defenses.
No it doesnt. But it also doesnt mean they cant do thier jobs. Apparantly San Fran saw something in Alex Smith that no one else does. Maybe its the fact hes a student of the game. I dont know the kid well enough to give him props for everything but from what I hear, Alex Smith is academically one of the smartest guys off the field. Steve Young/Mannings are all students of the game. They know all the looks and Coverages out there. They can call right audibles and work from the no huddle. David Carr? He has done nothing in the league yet, but he hasnt done anything to lose his job permanantly. And if you remember, There was a HUGE HUGE HUGE media circus on the Texans to get Vince Young in the draft.

This whole thing can be summed up to address Mudflap, Inet, and Typ0.

Its easy, you dont like what you see from JP. Theres reason to feel that way.

I think JP will be just fine when the team gets better. I also feel if the team doesnt get better, it wont matter who we have playing QB, we still wont be good enough to go anywhere.

I think that JP will end up being one of the better QB's in the league. He may not be a top 10'er in the next few years, but he will be on par with Bulgers, and Greens.

Many of you feel hes Akili Smith.

None of us knows, know of us can predict with 100% certainty what he will become.

All I know is that I wont spend all this time complaining because it just makes me more angry. I also feel that we are headed up not down and that we need to build on some of what we have, but its silly to endlessly debate about what we do have.

Nuff said

Mudflap1

11-02-2006, 05:49 PM

This whole thing can be summed up to address Mudflap, Inet, and Typ0.

Its easy, you dont like what you see from JP. Theres reason to feel that way.

I think JP will be just fine when the team gets better. I also feel if the team doesnt get better, it wont matter who we have playing QB, we still wont be good enough to go anywhere.

I think that JP will end up being one of the better QB's in the league. He may not be a top 10'er in the next few years, but he will be on par with Bulgers, and Greens.

Many of you feel hes Akili Smith.

None of us knows, know of us can predict with 100% certainty what he will become.

All I know is that I wont spend all this time complaining because it just makes me more angry. I also feel that we are headed up not down and that we need to build on some of what we have, but its silly to endlessly debate about what we do have.

Nuff said

Thanks for your reply. Apology accepted and backpedaling/retreating noted...

Jon

X-Era

11-02-2006, 06:49 PM

Thanks for your reply. Apology accepted and backpedaling/retreating noted...

Jon
Zero back pedaling or retreating, I have NOTHING to apologize for.

Your arguement is in fact NO arguement.

I was willing to let this slide, apparently your arrogance forces more debate.

McNairs 2005 rating of 82.2 is good play? Huh? Holcombs was 85.6 and we liked him so much we benched him for good. He threw 11 ints and 16 TD's. Alex Smith has a 82.2 rating right now, I guess hes a player doing great on a bad team too. Ohh wait.

How about Jake Plummer? Heres a guy many want to crap can Losman for, the Broncos are 5 and 2, yet he has a 65 passers rating. I suppose he would be all we need here? On a team thats worse overall?

Somehow you continue to miss my entire arguement. Its that JP is no more Peyton Manning than he is Akili Smith. Hes a heck of alot more Bulger than any of the other comparisons.

Bulger has the best WR corp in the league through most of the years he started, a top 10 RB, a top 5 LT, a decent line despite that. You want to claim we can compare with St Louis, KC? Not even close. Their record represents their team. You want to say their QB's were great for them when they stunk?

KC in 2004, Holmes played 8 games and led the league in yards per game, offense ended up 1st in offense with #1 in yards per game. Trent had a great year, but that offense was great, far from crappy.

Stl, in 2005 ended up 9th in the league in offense, Jackson ran for 1046, Holt was 4th in receiving yards. there defense sucked, and their record showed it.

Car, in 2004, care to take a look at who led the league in receiving yards? Yes Mohammed, Car defense was 3rd in the league.

NYJ, in 2003, Martin rushed for 1300 yards, Moss received for 1150, Ellis was 5th wit 12.5 sacks. Pennington is so great, they almost canned him this offseason.

In every example here, the TEAM had either better players than us, or better units than us. The arguement was that the QB's play is often a red flag of the overall team. You showed some situations where that is not true, but you certianly didnt show me and stars, and you certainly didnt show me any teams as bad as us right now. In fact, like I said, each example had either top of the league leaders in their categories, or top of the league rated units.

THATS NOT CRAPPY TEAMS!

2005 McNair? Tenn thought so much of him they traded him and drafted and are now playing a rookie. Hows that trade working out for the Ravens?

JP's numbers will be better with a better team, you only made my arguement for me.

The team has an average defense and a sucky offense with no league leaders. Its no wonder that our QB numbers are just a bit below average.

Its neither all JP's fault nor none of his.

He gets the time to play, if the FO has a brain it will boost the team around him and then he can be just fine. If he STILL isnt, crap can him and get someone who is.

Wanna win regardless of the QB? Get a top notch D, add a decent o-line, and have some top 10 playmakers. JP would be just fine under those conditions.

Inetpub

11-03-2006, 08:51 AM

My use of the word "Conditions" is based on how you said JP will fine under them.

Wanna win regardless of the QB? Get a top notch D, add a decent o-line, and have some top 10 playmakers. JP would be just fine under those conditions. That is what you said. All I asked is, obviously he isnt in that condition yet. How do we get there? What do you suggest we do because going out and spending a the money on every draft pick/FA isnt the answer. Spending money doesnt guarantee production.

Im here arguing that we need a better team, and that JP would be just fine with a better team. You changed that around to say that we should build an entire team around JP. That ISNT what I said. I said we need to improve the team or it wont matter who is playing QB. I then said, with a better team, JP's numbers will be better. I think JP can be good enough if the team is better. See the difference? How? Without Ralph going out and spending outrageous money, How do you expect to achieve this? Thats a statement for ANY team. Imagine if you improve Indy's offense. Peyton would be that much better. You can say that statement about ANY team playing because that is the idea of playing the season. To improve and make a run for the playoffs. Or to build and make a run for next year.

I havent given up on the Bills. I just wanted to ask if you are saying for JP to succeed, certain parts of the team need to be fixed. But how would you fix them with Ralphy not spending more than 10 million on FA next year? Obviously we'll release afew guys but give or take a million or 2, im sure we might swing and get 3 guys from FA and sign and play only 2 draft picks. Even then, the draft picks wont just come in and have an impact. So we are stuck at square 1 again.

Mudflap1

11-03-2006, 09:53 AM

Dude, J.P. himself said that he needs to play better with the talent around him. If he can stop making mistakes and do his job better, it will help the guys around him have confidence and play better. HE SAID IT HIMSELF!

inetpub is right, if your position is he can only be decent if he has a good/great team around him, well, any quarterback would be better under those circumstances. J.P. needs to start doing his job better now. He has some talent, and he has some talent around him -- USE IT.

Other than that, you are forgiven ;)

Jon

jamze132

11-03-2006, 11:25 AM

Inetpub

11-03-2006, 12:40 PM

How is it possible to have a 2nd favorite team? If the Bills were no longer in existence, I don't know what I would do. By the way, how old are you?
If its possible to like 2 girls and date them at the same time, its possible to have a second favorite team.

Inetpub

11-03-2006, 02:55 PM

Are you still posting about this subject? WTF is it going to prove? people have different ideas. Live with it. You have a different opinion than others. Its part of life.

I just have afew question with your opinion. And you can answer it anyway you want.

Wanna win regardless of the QB? Get a top notch D, add a decent o-line, and have some top 10 playmakers. JP would be just fine under those conditions.
And now back to reality, We arent in those conditions at the moment. Do you seriously think the Bills are going to upgrade everyone on the team for JP to succeed? Your basically saying get a better D, better O and some top 10 playmakers. I highly doubt Ralph will be doing what you are asking for.

My question is, Without perfect conditions to which you think JP can be successful, how can he be successful with what we have currently? Chances are hes going to have to learn to be successful with what we have rather than your conditions(which I think NO GM would make)

X-Era

11-03-2006, 05:52 PM

Are you still posting about this subject? WTF is it going to prove? people have different ideas. Live with it. You have a different opinion than others. Its part of life.

I just have afew question with your opinion. And you can answer it anyway you want.

And now back to reality, We arent in those conditions at the moment. Do you seriously think the Bills are going to upgrade everyone on the team for JP to succeed? Your basically saying get a better D, better O and some top 10 playmakers. I highly doubt Ralph will be doing what you are asking for.

My question is, Without perfect conditions to which you think JP can be successful, how can he be successful with what we have currently? Chances are hes going to have to learn to be successful with what we have rather than your conditions(which I think NO GM would make)

If you read my post I sited Carolina. Theres a team with a top 5 DE (Peppers), a top 5 WR (Steve Smith), and very good D, and an average OL. Apparently, there are plenty of GM's that would build good "conditions" as you call them. Will OUR GM? thats another matter.

Im here arguing that we need a better team, and that JP would be just fine with a better team. You changed that around to say that we should build an entire team around JP. That ISNT what I said. I said we need to improve the team or it wont matter who is playing QB. I then said, with a better team, JP's numbers will be better. I think JP can be good enough if the team is better. See the difference?

My problem with your response is it sounds like the classic "were screwed" game. You seem to say we will never get what we need to win, and that JP sucks too. OK, Ive heard your frustration what now? I seriously hope that you dont believe plugging in some new draftee or signing some other teams backup will raise our QB play to the necessary pro-bowl level to drag our sub par team into the playoffs. Mudflap's data shows that even THAT wont get it done all the time.