I don't see how we can conclude anything at all right now.

[ICE74129]

It too early on JP, Dick Jauron, Marv etc.

I have read where teams went from whatever crappy record to a damn good one in a year. Depending on how marv and Ralph handle this offseason, the transition from this year to next could be that type.

I have said and stand by this is at least a two offseason process. The front office has a plan. They brought in guys they thought could run their systems and still needed to see who would work out of what was left. They are now getting the idea of how much more needs to be done. Now this offseason with a ton of cap room they can address most of those needs in FA and the draft.

IF! IF ralph wilson pays up the big bucks. The team sucks right now and the city isn't that great right now either. Both though are busting butt to improve. Problem is we will have to outpay to get players vs other teams. I just hope ralph and Marv are willing to do that.

[PECKERWOOD]

So you dont want to kill JP anymore? :huh:

[Mr. Pink]

It too early on JP, Dick Jauron, Marv etc.

I have read where teams went from whatever crappy record to a damn good one in a year. Depending on how marv and Ralph handle this offseason, the transition from this year to next could be that type.

I have said and stand by this is at least a two offseason process. The front office has a plan. They brought in guys they thought could run their systems and still needed to see who would work out of what was left. They are now getting the idea of how much more needs to be done. Now this offseason with a ton of cap room they can address most of those needs in FA and the draft.

IF! IF ralph wilson pays up the big bucks. The team sucks right now and the city isn't that great right now either. Both though are busting butt to improve. Problem is we will have to outpay to get players vs other teams. I just hope ralph and Marv are willing to do that.


How much needs to be done?

We have all been given a HUGE wake up call at really how bad many facets of this team are. And the offseason patchwork moves to fix them were nothing more than putting a bandaid over a gushing open wound. They had one offseason to attempt to make any position/group better and they failed to do even that. What is the plan exactly in your viewpoint?

We're looking at an O-line that's either a. worse than last year or b. the same, there was no improvement done to this group but hey at least we tried with marginal fringe nfl'ers right?

We're also looking at a D-line that is in the same position, but again at least we tried right?

We have arguably the worst QB situation in the NFL only the Raiders might be worse. Our starter looks so bad at times that he wouldn't succeed in the arena league.

TE, we tried to improve there, didn't do so well.

WR, we have a who's who of who in the league gives a crap about what pathetic receivers we have past Evans.

We have a secondary that looks downright disgusting. Nate on the verge of being on the outs, which many people were happy about, but who's going to replace him? McGee? He's looked lost the past few weeks to the point of getting benched. That's a scary proposition thinking of him going into next season as the number 1 starter.

LB, we have Fletcher and ummmm Fletcher. Hopefully by next year Spikes will be 100% healthy, but with his injury that's wishful thinking.

AND on top of all of this, we have a coaching staff that can't get players motivated to play and/or care how they show up on the field, a staff that still makes all the same dumbass wack calls that the last regime had and perennial losers.

We're still at least 2 more offseasons away from being a contender and that's if all the moves hit....not too mention if JP doesn't pan out, we have to somehow bring along yet another QB. Another QB who's going to take a draft pick away from getting someone to help on this putrid O or D-line or a guy we're gonna have to sign and take up money.

Sorry if I don't share your same rosy view of things, but what exactly are you getting at that we have a plan and may only be a season away from fixing this mess? This thing has more holes than swiss cheese and one offseason isn't going to fix it nor why would anyone have any reason to believe it would? Considering the brass fixed nothing over the previous offseason.

[ICE74129]

I really don't have a rosy view of this team at all. but the reality is we still have many games to go and need to let them play out to see what we really have.

[Inetpub]

Ice,

I think you are forgetting who our owner is. He isnt going out next year and spending 20 million. You cant just throw money at players and expect them to always pan out. Although it would help since we are paying them alot of money.

Also, the only guys that will leave are, Free agents and trades. Now is it enough to trade for better guys? Dont forget when you trade, you are trading for value. Free agency costs alot and usually on a good year, you can only pluck 1-2 solid FAs. Thats IF you spend the money. Which we know, Ralph doesnt.

My only gripe about these posts are, they are all IF IF IF. If this happens, If this is done, IF they spend this much money. Every team goes through these IFS. Even the Superbowl champs will go through IFS. If they make better plays, if everything clicks. Now back to reality, The only thing you can really ask is, Can we get our current guys to play that much better that when we get in additional help, we will have a chance at contention.

[alohabillsfan]

We have 3 DT's I can live with = Need 1 (Tim A =Gone) Round 1 (kid from FLA)
We have 3 De's I can live with = Jury still out on new one.
We have a hole most likley a ML Would like FA fill Top Tier and 7rd draft
Jury still not out on Youbouty a DB's
Good at Safety!

Oline still a work in progress Round 2 and 6 Guard/Center
TE where is evertt? Royal I like good blocker, we just do not throw at him enough!
RB Need to draft Willis Replacement this year Round 3
Wr Need big target Round 4/FA Bennett?

I still like the philosophy of building a solid (top6) defense!

[PECKERWOOD]

Ice, I agree. We cant conclude anything until after the season is over, there are a lot of question marks on this team.


QB - ?
RB - Ok.
OL - ?'s
TE - Bad.
WR - Bad
DE - Ok.
DT - ? ( We are lacking a 1 technique DT, however Williams has done well..)
LB - ? ( Fletcher and TKO, whats going to happen with them?)
CB - ? Clements, will stay or go? Youboty can fill in? Or is he a headcase?
S - Solid.

So, we all have a lot of questions about certain positions on this team. Let me just say this, our DL is coming together very nicely. They have made some very, very respectable progress and I am extremely enthusiastic about that. Kyle Williams is turning into a good 1 technique DT, but we need another 1 Technique stud to put in the rotation. McCargo and Tripplett are doing fine, and they will benefit when we get a better 1 technique guy.

LB, has some question marks also. Let me just point out that Crowell is a good player, and I love having him in Buffalo. Ellison is another underrated stud at LB, he filled in admirably for TKO. So the biggest ? in my mind is MLB. Are we going to resign Fletch or is it time to draft one?

CB, whats the deal with Nate? Will we show him the money? Whats the deal with Youboty, is he a head case? McGee hasnt been playing too well either, however we have him locked up for the long term, so we will keep him.

WR, is a very weak position for us, imo. We lack playmakers. Lee Evans is a developing young WR, and he is the only one worth keeping in my eyes. Price and Reed are all overpaid for being good #3 and 4 WR's. Its not about having the best backups in the league, its about having the best starters.

OL is a giant ?. Peters, Fowler, and Gandy are the only ones worth keeping. Obviously, I will reserve judgement on Merz and Pennington because they are just rookies. Preston is nothing more than a career backup, imo.

Lastly is QB, probably the most talked about position on our team. We have our doubts to say the least, and the production of this position will greatly influence our whole offseason next year.

[ScottLawrence]

From what I've seen out of JP, nothing tells me he is going to be a good quarterback in this league.

Sure hes got the tools, but lacks the intangibles.

Mentality, pocket prescence, awareness, and leadership are all the things you need in this league as a quarterback, that he doesn't have.


He's the biggest reason for why we are sitting at 2-5.

I'm not saying bench him, maybe he could come around, but right now I've seen nothing.

[Saratoga Slim]

I think our offseason needs are manageable.

Offense

1. Offensive line. OL clearly needs an infusion of talent, but how much and where we need it will depend on how the reconstituted line functions over the next nine games.

a. WHAT WE DON'T NEEED: I think Peters will be fine at LT. He has all the physical tools, and coaches are calling him a hard worker, and, surprisingly enough, smart. I haven't been blown away by Fowler, but I think he's played well enough to start on a good OL.

b. WHAT WE MIGHT NEED: LG, if Gandy doesn't prove to be a better Guard than a LT. Also, RT, if Pennington doesn't show serious promise. I assume that at least one of these two will need an upgrade.

c. WHAT WE DEFINATELY NEED: A top-tier RG, either through FA or Day 1 of the draft.

Thus, I think it's reasonable to expect that we need to bring in at least one, and perhaps 2 new starters for the OL. We can get by with one less-than-steller lineman if the rest are good (see NE last weekend with the practice squader at RG).

2. WR/TE. I think Royal will be fine as a TE, as he's a great blocker and has looked like a decent receiver on the few occasions he's been thrown the ball. However, JP needs a true big, possession receiver, and thus I'd love to see us bring in a true pass-catching tight end like Daniel Graham or Jerramy Stevens. With a true receiving threat at TE, I think we can get by with our current receivers. However, if OBD is happy with Royal and like his ability to block in a run-oriented offense, I would prefer to see a big #2 receiver to take some pressure off Lee. Like Keyshawn is to Steve Smith.

Defense

3. Defensive line. DT: I think Triplett and McCargo will be fine as the "small guy" 3-gap DTs. And I like what Kyle Williams has done so far. But I really want to see a big, strong, distruptive DT brought in through FA or with a high draft pick. Without one, I just don't think we're going to be able to hold up in short yardage situations. I think this is our most pressing need on defense.

If we can get a really solid 1-gap DT in here, then I'm OK with our DEs, who have some decent sack counts already this season. We just need a little more pressure up the middle, and the ability to firm up in obvious running situations.

4. MLB. I think Fletcher's gone. Hate to see him go, cause the guy leaves it all on the field. But he's getting long in the tooth, and ideally we'd like a MLB who can drop into coverage a little better. I think we're OK at OLB between Spikes, Crowell and Ellison.

5. CB. I am doubtful that Clements is back. If he is, I think we're OK. In the likely event that he's not, I think we need to get someone in here. Youboty not even dresing for games yet is not a good omen for his being able to start next year.

#######################################################

With the above in mind, I think our offseason needs are manageable. We need basically

a. 2 Olineman (assuming either Gandy or Pennington can hack it)
b. 1 Big possession WR or talented pass-catching TE
c. 1 DT
d. 1 MLB
e. 1 CB

That's 6 starters, which is a lot, but it's doable. Especially b/c if the OL and DT positions are filled well with talented FA and high draft picks, there's diminished pressure on the other needs. I.e. if Willis can run more effectively behind a solid OL, and JP has more time to do his reads, we can likely get by with Royal and our speedsters. Likewise, if we firm up the interior D-line a bit, there is less pressure on having a monster at MLB.

I'm leaving the QB position out of this for the moment, fingers crossed. But if it becomes clear by the end of the season that we need to look elsewhere, that'll make things a little more difficult, as any QB that is an upgrade over JP will cost either a lot of $$ or a high draft pick.

[BidsJr]

It too early on JP, Dick Jauron, Marv etc.

I have read where teams went from whatever crappy record to a damn good one in a year. Depending on how marv and Ralph handle this offseason, the transition from this year to next could be that type.

I have said and stand by this is at least a two offseason process. The front office has a plan. They brought in guys they thought could run their systems and still needed to see who would work out of what was left. They are now getting the idea of how much more needs to be done. Now this offseason with a ton of cap room they can address most of those needs in FA and the draft.

IF! IF ralph wilson pays up the big bucks. The team sucks right now and the city isn't that great right now either. Both though are busting butt to improve. Problem is we will have to outpay to get players vs other teams. I just hope ralph and Marv are willing to do that.


Schizophrenia :bigwave:

[Yasgur's Farm]

From what I've seen out of JP, nothing tells me he is going to be a good quarterback in this league.

Sure hes got the tools, but lacks the intangibles.

Mentality, pocket prescence, awareness, and leadership are all the things you need in this league as a quarterback, that he doesn't have.


He's the biggest reason for why we are sitting at 2-5.

I'm not saying bench him, maybe he could come around, but right now I've seen nothing.I understand the point here... I really do.

1) Tools (Physical talent)
2) Mentality
3) Pocket Prescence
4) Awareness
5) Leadership

I'm not gonna debate JP's capabilities with any of these 5 items...

But wouldn't you think that items 2 through 5 are what seperate a young QB from an established QB?

And don't you think there is usually some curve of maturation here as a young QB gains experience?

After 15 games... I've seen enough maturing and improvement to want to go further with JP. That, of course, is my opinion.

[Inetpub]

I understand the point here... I really do.

1) Tools (Physical talent)
2) Mentality
3) Pocket Prescence
4) Awareness
5) Leadership

I'm not gonna debate JP's capabilities with any of these 5 items...

But wouldn't you think that items 2 through 5 are what seperate a young QB from an established QB?

And don't you think there is usually some curve of maturation here as a young QB gains experience?

After 15 games... I've seen enough maturing and improvement to want to go further with JP. That, of course, is my opinion.
No, 2 through 5 are what separate good QBs from bad ones. All the arm strength and speed wont do anything if you dont have the leadership and mentality. Brady is the perfect example. Whens the last time you've heard people compliment him on his arm strength? You hear about Brady's poise in the pocket. His cool under pressure.

There is a curve of maturity but when you are dealing with a player, you have to ask. Are they getting it? JP in 7 games this year has more fumbles than last year. He looking lost out there and there has to be a point where people have to step up and ask. Whats going on that hes not showing the improvements? He should be at a level where weekly improvements should be noticably seen. He doesnt need to win all the time, he just needs to show that he is progressing. Has he done that? Besides the Vikes game, no. Regression isnt a step we want to take. JP is looking more like he isnt learning rather than anything.

[PECKERWOOD]

Inetpub, what are ya talkin about there brother. I constantly hear Theismann massage Brady's nuts. "Oh what a tight spiral!", "I was catching passes from Brady this offseason, and man he throws that ball hard!".

[Yasgur's Farm]

No, 2 through 5 are what separate good QBs from bad ones. All the arm strength and speed wont do anything if you dont have the leadership and mentality. Brady is the perfect example. Whens the last time you've heard people compliment him on his arm strength? You hear about Brady's poise in the pocket. His cool under pressure.

There is a curve of maturity but when you are dealing with a player, you have to ask. Are they getting it? JP in 7 games this year has more fumbles than last year. He looking lost out there and there has to be a point where people have to step up and ask. Whats going on that hes not showing the improvements? He should be at a level where weekly improvements should be noticably seen. He doesnt need to win all the time, he just needs to show that he is progressing. Has he done that? Besides the Vikes game, no. Regression isnt a step we want to take. JP is looking more like he isnt learning rather than anything.That is, of course, your opinion... I don't share it.

[dplus47]

Schizophrenia :bigwave:

i'm pleased to meet me!

[Inetpub]

Inetpub, what are ya talkin about there brother. I constantly hear Theismann massage Brady's nuts. "Oh what a tight spiral!", "I was catching passes from Brady this offseason, and man he throws that ball hard!".
Brady has an ok arm. Hes not one of the strongest throwers in the game. Hes one of the better thinkers. If your going to think about physical attributes, you start thinking Culpepper, Vick, Young, Carr, Brooks. A tight spiral isnt arm strength. Its throwing mechanics. Arm strength, arm speed and a tight spiral will make the ball go further. Best mechanics QB ive seen, probably Boomer Esiason. But that is my opinion on the best QB with a tight spiral.

[PECKERWOOD]

Brady has an ok arm. Hes not one of the strongest throwers in the game. Hes one of the better thinkers. If your going to think about physical attributes, you start thinking Culpepper, Vick, Young, Carr, Brooks. A tight spiral isnt arm strength. Its throwing mechanics. Arm strength, arm speed and a tight spiral will make the ball go further. Best mechanics QB ive seen, probably Boomer Esiason. But that is my opinion on the best QB with a tight spiral.

Arm strength and athletic capabilities are two different things. Manning and Brady didnt get by on being athletic, they got by on having great arm power. Brady is probably the most accurate QB, I have seen. I really admire how he plays the game.

[Inetpub]

Arm strength and athletic capabilities are two different things. Manning and Brady didnt get by on being athletic, they got by on having great arm power. Brady is probably the most accurate QB, I have seen. I really admire how he plays the game.

I didnt mention Athletic ability. Culpepper isnt one of athletic ability. Hes pure strength. Drew Bledsoe isnt one of Athletic ability. Hes got a cannon for an arm though. Yes Vick/brooks can run too. But what I was talking about is arm strength. David Carr is one where you can honestly say hes got crappy stats but has an AWESOME arm. You can say that with Drew too. I dont care how accurate they are. They both have awesome arms.

Now, If you really ask people about Manning/Brady, What are they going to say about them? Thier arm strength? No. With Manning people talk about his skill of the game. His knowledge of it. How he audibles and knows how to read the D. With Brady, its his pocket presence and poise and patience. I never said they were weak armed. I just said what they say about the 2 best QBs in the game are thier mentality and brains.

I have no doubt Brady is accurate. But my original post was.

All the arm strength and speed wont do anything if you dont have the leadership and mentality. Brady is the perfect example. Whens the last time you've heard people compliment him on his arm strength? You hear about Brady's poise in the pocket. His cool under pressure.

Thats not to knock Brady's accuracy/arm strength. Thats to outline his poise and patience in the pocket. Thats what Brady is known for.

[PECKERWOOD]

I didnt mention Athletic ability. Culpepper isnt one of athletic ability. Hes pure strength. Drew Bledsoe isnt one of Athletic ability. Hes got a cannon for an arm though. Yes Vick/brooks can run too. But what I was talking about is arm strength. David Carr is one where you can honestly say hes got crappy stats but has an AWESOME arm. You can say that with Drew too. I dont care how accurate they are. They both have awesome arms.

Now, If you really ask people about Manning/Brady, What are they going to say about them? Thier arm strength? No. With Manning people talk about his skill of the game. His knowledge of it. How he audibles and knows how to read the D. With Brady, its his pocket presence and poise and patience. I never said they were weak armed. I just said what they say about the 2 best QBs in the game are thier mentality and brains.

I have no doubt Brady is accurate. But my original post was.


Thats not to knock Brady's accuracy/arm strength. Thats to outline his poise and patience in the pocket. Thats what Brady is known for.

Yeah, I was responding to your post later on where you said:


Brady has an ok arm. Hes not one of the strongest throwers in the game.

I just dont see how is arm is just 'ok'. He has arguably the best arm in the game, even if your talking about power too. He knows how to place the football, and accuracy actually relies alot on arm strength. You have to have arm strength to be accurate, especially in NE and up North. It could even be argued that Brady has a stronger arm than Manning, because he throws out in the cold and wind, and still completes nasty passes.

My whole point was this.. The pure pocket passers usually have the stronger arm's in the game, thats how they make their cheese. Where as, Vick, Brooks and Culpepper have relied on athletic capabilities.

[HHURRICANE]

It too early on JP, Dick Jauron, Marv etc.

IF! IF ralph wilson pays up the big bucks. The team sucks right now and the city isn't that great right now either. Both though are busting butt to improve. Problem is we will have to outpay to get players vs other teams. I just hope ralph and Marv are willing to do that.

Blah, blah, blah, blah blah, balh, blah.

Your the same person who wanted to pull JP 10 days ago. They offer medication for bi-polar conditions.

[EDS]

Yeah, I was responding to your post later on where you said:



I just dont see how is arm is just 'ok'. He has arguably the best arm in the game, even if your talking about power too. He knows how to place the football, and accuracy actually relies alot on arm strength. You have to have arm strength to be accurate, especially in NE and up North. It could even be argued that Brady has a stronger arm than Manning, because he throws out in the cold and wind, and still completes nasty passes.

My whole point was this.. The pure pocket passers usually have the stronger arm's in the game, thats how they make their cheese. Where as, Vick, Brooks and Culpepper have relied on athletic capabilities.


You guys are talking about different things. Guys like Brady, P. Manning and Montana don't have great arm strength (i.e., they can't throw it a mile or with great velocity) but they have great accuracy and touch. Guys like JP, Bledsoe and Vick can throw the ball a mile with great velocity but lack touch and accuracy. The velocity thing is what most people are refering to when they say, "that guy has a great arm."

Personally, I would take a quarterback with great accuracy, tough and poise over a guy with pure raw athletic ability.

[ScottLawrence]

I understand the point here... I really do.

1) Tools (Physical talent)
2) Mentality
3) Pocket Prescence
4) Awareness
5) Leadership

I'm not gonna debate JP's capabilities with any of these 5 items...

But wouldn't you think that items 2 through 5 are what seperate a young QB from an established QB?

And don't you think there is usually some curve of maturation here as a young QB gains experience?

After 15 games... I've seen enough maturing and improvement to want to go further with JP. That, of course, is my opinion.

Not so much with Mentality or Pocket Prescence.

You either have the smarts to play in this league, or you don't.

So far it doesn't look like JP does.

I see your point though, we'll see through the rest of these games as JP will most likely start the rest of the season.

[Inetpub]

Brady has an ok arm. Hes not one of the strongest throwers in the game.

When you are replying to that one line, I can see what you mean BuffaloFever. But you have to read the context of the paragraph. That line is subjective to personal opinion. But the context of the paragraph was more about the focus on his poise and patience in the pocket. Which is where Brady really excels and I am sure you cant doubt that.

[Bill Cody]

Blah, blah, blah, blah blah, balh, blah.

Your the same person who wanted to pull JP 10 days ago. They offer medication for bi-polar conditions.

:laughing:

[jamze132]

How much needs to be done?

We have all been given a HUGE wake up call at really how bad many facets of this team are. And the offseason patchwork moves to fix them were nothing more than putting a bandaid over a gushing open wound. They had one offseason to attempt to make any position/group better and they failed to do even that. What is the plan exactly in your viewpoint?

What the hell did you expect the new regime to do in one freaking offseason?

I mean, take a look at what they inherited. And they did get rid a of a lot of dead weight, but you can't do it all at one time. we still have to have enough guys to play football once a week. And besides, who shoudl we have brought in this past offseason? There wasn't really a lot of top tier FA out there. And less you forget, Marv did attmept to get a couple of guy that were RFA's in which their team met out generous offer.

So don't sit their and bash the front office for not doing anything about a crappy team they inherited. They need time. And I think so far, they are doing a good job.

One more thing, who the **** else was going to QB this team this year besides JP? Hoclomb? Nall? Another journeyman? They had no idea what they had in JP.