So was JP improving

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Chris Brown had a good bits on JP last week:
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<TABLE style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #002d78 1px solid" width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>November 5, 2006
</TD><TD align=right>Posted By: Chris Brown | Time: 10:47 AM ET | Link (http://buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?post_id=575)

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J.P. QUESTION: I recently got a question from a fan in my askchris email box that I thought I'd post here on my blog, since I've been asked this quite a few times. Here's the question and my answer. Hope this helps to shed some light on things.
Hi Chris,

Do you think the coaching staff is suffocating JP in the pocket that seems to keep collapsing?Lets face it its just not his style.Maybe they should look back at college film and see what he is comfortable doing.Not that Im a expert but he has made some great passes on the run.Maybe he is over thinking stay in the pocket stay in the pocket as he gets plowed again and again.Does what comes natural mean anything?Thank you for keeping us informed you must love your job.

Vermont Fan

MY ANSWER
Vermont fan
I actually talked to Steve Fairchild about this very subject this week. He maintains the way to develop J.P. the fastest is to keep him in the pocket and force him to read defenses and only use his running ability as a last resort. I agree allowing a running QB to use his legs prematurely on a play stunts their growth in reading defenses because they don't hang in there long enough to watch things unfold.

I think that's why he is a slow reader right now, because his college coaches let him run around all over the place. As a result he saw less plays from the pocket and now is less experienced than players like Phillip Rivers who are forced to read defenses because they don't have the same mobility. Michael Vick only now is starting to read defenses effectively and he's in his fifth season.

I think Fairchild is committed to developing Losman's ability to read defenses knowing he's going to take his lumps. But I think he feels if J.P. is going to be successful at this level that he has to go through this process to understand and read defenses properly. If he doesn't he'll never get better and never be a consistent or effective QB.

LOSMAN RUNNING TODAY: Despite all this staying in the pocket talk. Today might be a day where he takes off to run a bit more. The reason why is the Packers play a lot of man-to-man defense, which typically offers a few more running lanes to quarterbacks. A month ago Donovan McNabb ran five times for 47 yards and two touchdowns against Green Bay. You might see J.P. take off a bit more today.


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That is exactly what I thought about JP. Don't forget he started only two years in Tulane as well. In contrast, Philip Rivers started all 4 years in college, double the experience of JP!

If I were the GM of the Bills in 2004, I would not draft JPL at all for this simple reason. Too much risk. Look at Vick. This is his fifth year and he finally starts to put it together. If you are not Vick, you would not get away with so many things with your athletic ability the first 4 years. You would be playing QB in CFL by now.

That said, if you are Levy and Jauron, what do you do when you have Losman in your hand, entering his third year? To be honest, I think Losman absolutely had no idea what he was doing at all the first two years (and his teamates can see that easily, let alone a fan like me). This year is the first time he sounded like he knows what he's talking about, so I presume that he started to get a realistic feel of the game in NFL. He began to learn to read defenses. I applaud Fairchild's approach to force him to do that. I think every week, JP is seeing new things that he never saw before (well maybe he saw them before last year but he didn't know what he was looking at then). It's a learning experience.

Realistically, major improvement of JP, if there is one, will come next year. But the coaching staff will have a much better idea by the end of this year. That's when they will decide if JP is just a slow learner or does not have it all.

The rollouts, the scramble will come when JP gets the defense reading part down because then he'll know that's the right thing to do. To me those fumbles and sacks are all part of this learning process. Like everyone else, I gets frustrated at him at times. But in terms of his development, he's at least a year behind Eli, Ben and Philip from the day he was drafted. Coaching changes and offense philosophy changes don't help either (anyone else noticed that all the other 3 QBs have been with the same coaching staff, the same offense the whole time in their career so far?).

The bottom line: we just have to be patient with JP. That's if Ralph does not come in and demand a change this winter.

[BidsJr]

Now the question is this.

If reading the defense on a play is a 10 page book..............

Inexperianced JP has 5 mins to read that book.

Brady and Manning had 10 mins to read that same book last night.


What can you do?


Either shorten the book.

Teach him to read faster.

Or give him more time to read it.

I think this sums up the QB issue exactly.

[alohabillsfan]

If all this is true and I believe in the assessment, then Marv and company need to solidify the O-line this off season and by solidify I mean get a guard most likely 2 and another tackle, and give him the time to read and throw!!!!

[justasportsfan]

Do you think the coaching staff is suffocating JP in the pocket that seems to keep collapsing?Lets face it its just not his style.Maybe they should look back at college film and see what he is comfortable doing.Not that Im a expert but he has made some great passes on the run.Maybe he is over thinking stay in the pocket stay in the pocket as he gets plowed again and again.Does what comes natural mean anything?Thank you for keeping us informed you must love your job.

Vermont Fan

MY ANSWER
Vermont fan
I actually talked to Steve Fairchild about this very subject this week. He maintains the way to develop J.P. the fastest is to keep him in the pocket and force him to read defenses and only use his running ability as a last resort. I agree allowing a running QB to use his legs prematurely on a play stunts their growth in reading defenses because they don't hang in there long enough to watch things unfold.

I think that's why he is a slow reader right now, because his college coaches let him run around all over the place. As a result he saw less plays from the pocket and now is less experienced than players like Phillip Rivers who are forced to read defenses because they don't have the same mobility. Michael Vick only now is starting to read defenses effectively and he's in his fifth season.

I think Fairchild is committed to developing Losman's ability to read defenses knowing he's going to take his lumps. But I think he feels if J.P. is going to be successful at this level that he has to go through this process to understand and read defenses properly. If he doesn't he'll never get better and never be a consistent or effective QB.

LOSMAN RUNNING TODAY: Despite all this staying in the pocket talk. Today might be a day where he takes off to run a bit more. The reason why is the Packers play a lot of man-to-man defense, which typically offers a few more running lanes to quarterbacks. A month ago Donovan McNabb ran five times for 47 yards and two touchdowns against Green Bay. You might see J.P. take off a bit more today.


I agree 100% with what was said. Last years camp JP would take off when he thought there wasn't anything. This is what aggravated the likes of Eric Moulds and Evans. This is why they told him to trust his wr's. This is what pissed off his teammate in college and called him selfish.

This years camp, he was told to hold on to the ball and finish a play even though it was a clear sack . The D would breeze by him (for a sack)and not allowed to touch him . This is what causes him to fumble the ball when getting hit. He's not used to getting hit just standing up. He's used to getting hit trying to scramble.


The hard part is I agree with what Fairchild is doing trying to develop him but there has to come a time where they should just let JP play the game instead of keeping him on a leash and limiting him in order to develop him. The hard part is that when is it time to do so? He hasn't had enough protection to learn to read D's when he getting pressured. Holcomb is awsome a t reading defenses but doesn't have the arm to do deliver the ball.


All game long, I wondered why we don't adopt Farve's way of playing. We have the wr's to run slants all day long. Remember JP's TD to Evans against the bears?


He is made to adopt to the system instead of the system adopting to their QB just like Atlanta and Vick.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Good posting all around!!!!!!!!!!! :bf1::bf1::bf1:

[PECKERWOOD]

Now the question is this.

If reading the defense on a play is a 10 page book..............

Inexperianced JP has 5 mins to read that book.

Brady and Manning had 10 mins to read that same book last night.


What can you do?


Either shorten the book.

Teach him to read faster.

Or give him more time to read it.

I think this sums up the QB issue exactly.

Not sure what you meant by that, maybe you can corroborate for me.. Anyways, JP had an extra week to prepare for GB. I am happy with a win, and 100 yards and a TD with no turnovers is actually improvement. I expected more to be honest though.

[Philagape]

Very good analysis. It confirms suspicions that he's being forced to stay in the pocket.

I'm kinda torn ... it is a good point that the only way he'll learn to read defenses is by staying in the pocket and getting experience. But I'm also a believer in letting players do what they do best. After reading that, I have no doubt that JP would be having a much better season if he had the freedom to run.

The question is, is this coaching philosophy helping or hurting his development? He's being forced to go against his instincts, and that leads to hesitation, and that leads to mistakes. It's not because he's stupid. Saying he's stupid is what's stupid. It's because he's inexperienced at being the kind of QB the coaches want him to be. Don't give me third-year crap. Game experience is the only real experience, and it's a very good point that he has even less of it because of his college background.

Would you all rather see him do better now but take longer to become a complete QB, like Vick, or make mistakes now while gaining pocket experience? Tough question.

[BidsJr]

Not sure what you meant by that, maybe you can corroborate for me.. Anyways, JP had an extra week to prepare for GB. I am happy with a win, and 100 yards and a TD with no turnovers is actually improvement. I expected more to be honest though.

Has to do with reading defenses.


Book = QB reads (more reads = longer book)

Time to read book = Pass protection

How fast you can read the book = Reading comprehension/decision making

If a good QB (Brady, Manning) has excellent reading comp skills and can have make quicker decisions the can make the best out of the time they have to make the reads. If they also have extra time to make the reads that makes them uber better.

If you have someone who is in remedial reading comp class (JP), and has less time to make a decision (finish the book), that = disaster.

In conclusion, being able to digest the defence JP sees + extra time to digest it (Oline help) = being a good QB.

The only other option is to shorten the book (have JP make less reads/decisions)

That would help the o-line (time), lenght of book (reads), and how long it takes JP to process it.

[BidsJr]

Very good analysis. It confirms suspicions that he's being forced to stay in the pocket.

I'm kinda torn ... it is a good point that the only way he'll learn to read defenses is by staying in the pocket and getting experience. But I'm also a believer in letting players do what they do best. After reading that, I have no doubt that JP would be having a much better season if he had the freedom to run.

The question is, is this coaching philosophy helping or hurting his development? He's being forced to go against his instincts, and that leads to hesitation, and that leads to mistakes. It's not because he's stupid. Saying he's stupid is what's stupid. It's because he's inexperienced at being the kind of QB the coaches want him to be. Don't give me third-year crap. Game experience is the only real experience, and it's a very good point that he has even less of it because of his college background.

Would you all rather see him do better now but take longer to become a complete QB, like Vick, or make mistakes now while gaining pocket experience? Tough question.

It only hurts his development if he never gets it and gets benched.

If he gets it we get a better QB for the future.

If he doesn't, we get to start over.

[Philagape]

It only hurts his development if he never gets it and gets benched.

If he gets it we get a better QB for the future.

If he doesn't, we get to start over.

But how long do you want to wait for him to get it?

There are two ways of getting it: He could get it his way, scrambling a lot, making plays, and that will happen sooner. OR, he could get it the coaches' way, staying in the pocket, which will take longer.

[BidsJr]

But how long do you want to wait for him to get it?

There are two ways of getting it: He could get it his way, scrambling a lot, making plays, and that will happen sooner. OR, he could get it the coaches' way, staying in the pocket, which will take longer.

I would like the rest of the season to erase any doubt.

If he takes the whole team down the toilet and they go 3-13 then at least we got a shot at a QB next year.

If he turns the corner than we draft 7 o-lineman and cross our fingers.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Do it now. Like I said before - before the season started, a new front office, a new coaching staff, a new offensive philosophy, a new defensive philosophy. Winning under these kind of conditions is extremely unlikely. Might as well take the lump now.

The only downside is which comes first: JP comes out the season mentally strong or JP comes out phisycally beat up. No cheating allowed because running around and scramble is a way of cheating around at this stage. It may sound inhumane but I think it is true: the coaching staff could care less about it. Only the strong one survives. If you are not improving mentally and resulting beat up phisically (like RJ), you are out - a natural selection process.

[BidsJr]

Do it now. Like I said before - before the season started, a new front office, a new coaching staff, a new offensive philosophy, a new defensive philosophy. Winning under these kind of conditions is extremely unlikely. Might as well take the lump now.

The only downside is which comes first: JP comes out the season mentally strong or JP comes out phisycally beat up. It may sound inhumane but I think it is true: the coaching staff could care less about it. Only the strong one survives. If you are not improving mentally and resulting beat up phisically (like RJ), you are out - a natural selection process.



Bingo

[ibatiger]

I'm kinda torn ... it is a good point that the only way he'll learn to read defenses is by staying in the pocket and getting experience.

The defense is read BEFORE the snap. You already know what you are going to do with the ball based on what the defense dictates. Every defense gives you an advantage somewhere to exploit. The only time you should not be throwing the ball immediately at the end of the drop is when the defense fooled you or changed on the fly. That happens and it confounds even the best. But, make no mistake, if you are not doing a basic read and have a basic idea what is going to happen (this should take care of the vast majority of plays) then you are lost and no amount of time is going to help. It should simply be a matter of execution. Our guy against the defense at the point where we have an advantage. If we lose the advantage then it's athlete against athlete. Even then the best QBs put the ball only where our guy has a shot at it and at worst it is incomplete. Losman is not reading the defense and acting accordingly. That is QB 101. There is no wonder he is so ineffective. He will not overcome that on the field before he overcomes it in the film room.

[BidsJr]

The defense is read BEFORE the snap. You already know what you are going to do with the ball based on what the defense dictates. Every defense gives you an advantage somewhere to exploit. The only time you should not be throwing the ball immediately at the end of the drop is when the defense fooled you or changed on the fly. That happens and it confounds even the best. But, make no mistake, if you are not doing a basic read and have a basic idea what is going to happen (this should take care of the vast majority of plays) then you are lost and no amount of time is going to help. It should simply be a matter of execution. Our guy against the defense at the point where we have an advantage. If we lose the advantage then it's athlete against athlete. Even then the best QBs put the ball only where our guy has a shot at it and at worst it is incomplete. Losman is not reading the defense and acting accordingly. That is QB 101. There is no wonder he is so ineffective. He will not overcome that on the field before he overcomes it in the film room.

Welcome back to the boards Craig!


BTW that must mean you have more experiance in that than Jim Kelly and Ron Jaworski who said that JP "gets" it in the film room.

I bet the next post will say that Nall is a master decision maker and would be a huge upgrade.

[justasportsfan]

His learning process would've been so much easier if he had an OL and a running game. If he still blows then it would be easier to grade him.

[Wraith]

Welcome back to the boards Craig!


BTW that must mean you have more experiance in that than Jim Kelly and Ron Jaworski who said that JP "gets" it in the film room.

I bet the next post will say that Nall is a master decision maker and would be a huge upgrade.

Apparently he also knows more than the Bills Offensive Coordinator, who says, IN THE ARTICLE QUOTED IN THE FIRST POST OF THIS FREAKIN' THREAD, that the way to develop a quarterback is to force him to stay in the pocket and learn to read defenses.

The conversations on this board would be about 100x more intelligent if there were a way to force people to actually READ the posts they are replying to.

[BidsJr]

Apparently he also knows more than the Bills Offensive Coordinator, who says, IN THE ARTICLE QUOTED IN THE FIRST POST OF THIS FREAKIN' THREAD, that the way to develop a quarterback is to force him to stay in the pocket and learn to read defenses.

The conversations on this board would be about 100x more intelligent if there were a way to force people to actually READ the posts they are replying to.

Nah he/she was too busy polishing Nalls Nob to read the post.

Even bigger Nall homer than EE.

[ICE74129]

all of that staying in the pocket to read defenses stuff is fine. IF YOU HAVE TIME!!!! JP has NONE. This line is nothing but a turnstile.

[Mr. Pink]

all of that staying in the pocket to read defenses stuff is fine. IF YOU HAVE TIME!!!! JP has NONE. This line is nothing but a turnstile.

3 of the 5 sacks were due to JP holding the ball too long, not the o-line being a turnstile. Honestly, Sunday was one of the better games this O-line played all year, average, and most teams o-lines in this league are exactly that, average. If you've had 4 seconds from the time you took the snap til someone is getting in your face, you've had plenty of time to throw the ball out of there. That is the nature of the NFL.

And Ib is somewhat correct, "reading defenses" occurs mainly pre-snap. It has to do with understanding film sessions and tendencies. If JP would get it more in the film sessions it would translate to better and quicker decisions on Sundays.

[BidsJr]

3 of the 5 sacks were due to JP holding the ball too long, not the o-line being a turnstile. Honestly, Sunday was one of the better games this O-line played all year, average, and most teams o-lines in this league are exactly that, average. If you've had 4 seconds from the time you took the snap til someone is getting in your face, you've had plenty of time to throw the ball out of there. That is the nature of the NFL.

And Ib is somewhat correct, "reading defenses" occurs mainly pre-snap. It has to do with understanding film sessions and tendencies. If JP would get it more in the film sessions it would translate to better and quicker decisions on Sundays.

Well according to Jimbo and Jaws he does.

Also if you have 2.5 secs to throw the ball on 17 dropbacks, and 4 secs on 3 dropbacks, you really think he can make the best out of those 3 dropbacks?

[PECKERWOOD]

Well, whether JP holds onto the ball too long or its just our OL. One thing is for certain, he is on pace to be sacked 52 times this season, something gots to give.

[Mr. Pink]

I have an honest question....

We all pretty much agree that JP is at his best when on the move and not standing around....why doesn't Fairchild put in plays that move the pocket, which allows for JP to roll out, yet still stay in the pocket and have time to discern what's going on in front of him?

The left side of our line looked pretty good today and should allow for that, especially seeing we now have a tackle playing guard. Tackles usually are more athletic than guards.

I figured we'd see more of moving pockets and rollouts due to moving gandy into guard, but still saw none of it.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

And Ib is somewhat correct, "reading defenses" occurs mainly pre-snap. It has to do with understanding film sessions and tendencies. If JP would get it more in the film sessions it would translate to better and quicker decisions on Sundays.

The most critical read is post snap. Pre-snap read determined the play development based on defense formation. post-snap reads whether your primary target beats his man as the play is drawn up or if the defense changes coverage on you. Most pre-snap reads can be dealt with effectively in practice. Some coaches like Belichick have a reputation of disguising his real formation real well.

The post snap read is where people refer to a QB has "it" or does not have "it". It's very hard to prepare and simulate this part of the game.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I have an honest question....

We all pretty much agree that JP is at his best when on the move and not standing around....why doesn't Fairchild put in plays that move the pocket, which allows for JP to roll out, yet still stay in the pocket and have time to discern what's going on in front of him?

The left side of our line looked pretty good today and should allow for that, especially seeing we now have a tackle playing guard. Tackles usually are more athletic than guards.

I figured we'd see more of moving pockets and rollouts due to moving gandy into guard, but still saw none of it.

It is impossible to maintain a pocket on the move. Pass block on the move is impossible. The D-Line will have a clear advantage in that case.

Moving away from the pocket essentally trades space for time. But it requires a QB to read and throw on the move while limiting throwing area. Most of today's defenses are too fast for this space for time formula.

[PECKERWOOD]

I have an honest question....

We all pretty much agree that JP is at his best when on the move and not standing around....why doesn't Fairchild put in plays that move the pocket, which allows for JP to roll out, yet still stay in the pocket and have time to discern what's going on in front of him?

The left side of our line looked pretty good today and should allow for that, especially seeing we now have a tackle playing guard. Tackles usually are more athletic than guards.

I figured we'd see more of moving pockets and rollouts due to moving gandy into guard, but still saw none of it.

Fairchild isnt moving JP around outside the pocket, because he wants JP to learn how to read defenses. Ultimately, this may be a good decision for the future, but we're going to take our lumps this year because of it.

[Bill Cody]

It is impossible to maintain a pocket on the move. Pass block on the move is impossible. The D-Line will have a clear advantage in that case.

Moving away from the pocket essentally trades space for time. But it requires a QB to read and throw on the move while limiting throwing area. Most of today's defenses are too fast for this space for time formula.

Denver rolls out as much as it drops back and it seems to work.

[Billzz]

Denver rolls out as much as it drops back and it seems to work.

What did they do with Elway? Just curious if they same kind of offense plan is in place or if they adepted it for the Snake?

They may have drawn up a plan the beginning of this year in regards to how they where going to develop JP. Maybe that plan calls for more roll outs after the mid point of the season? Who knows? No one on this board.

BTW it is nice to see a thread where people actually discuss something without all the extra antics.

[Bill Cody]

What did they do with Elway? Just curious if they same kind of offense plan is in place or if they adepted it for the Snake?

They may have drawn up a plan the beginning of this year in regards to how they where going to develop JP. Maybe that plan calls for more roll outs after the mid point of the season? Who knows? No one on this board.

BTW it is nice to see a thread where people actually discuss something without all the extra antics.

Elway played the last few years of his career with Mike Shanahan. It's the same offense they use now. It emphasizes power running with smaller offense linemen that can zone block and get out to the next level and a lot of movement from the QB, rollouts, bootlegs, etc. I don't know if JP could succeed in that style or not but it would match his skill set better.

[justasportsfan]

I think Fairchild wants him to be a pocket passer first where they can hurt you with long deep passes. Eventually, he can grow into a Steve Young or Elway instead of a Vick.

[SquishDaFish]

Great article and great posting except a few of the haters. This is what Ive been saying all offseason and all year. And hearing it from the coaches mouth makes me feel even more right. He us LEARNING and thats what the haters need to understand. Next year he should have his full arsenal of running and passing. NEXT year we will be a playoff team barring injuries. This will make him a better QB and us a BETTER Team for the FUTURE!

[Saratoga Slim]

With the exception of two or three posts, this has been a very intelligent thread, nice job all. I'm doling out some rep.

[Michael82]

Fairchild isnt moving JP around outside the pocket, because he wants JP to learn how to read defenses. Ultimately, this may be a good decision for the future, but we're going to take our lumps this year because of it.
Thanks for that. I've always wondered why he isn't using more roll outs and running plays for JP to scramble around back there and make a play. It always seems like that is when he is at his best. But if it does work and JP gets better at reading defenses, it makes sense. Afterall, look how long it took Michael Vick to be able to accurately read defenses. And thats because the coaching staff always let him run first.

[raphael120]

there were plenty of time when the pocket closed aroudn him and he sholdve taken some steps forward to get out of it when it did collapse but he just ran backwards. he just has no pocket awareness and even the basic QB fundamentals/instincts slips by him. i dunno guys...it aint lookin good for this dude. if the Oline gets better, then JP damn well better follow suit or there are no excuses.

[Cntrygal]

:faint:

I come home from work and find a DISCUSSION - are you all stoned???

Just kidding! Great thread and it makes sense. I really hope that everything starts to click soon.

[Michael82]

:faint:

I come home from work and find a DISCUSSION - are you all stoned???

Just kidding! Great thread and it makes sense. I really hope that everything starts to click soon.
BUMP for everyone else. This is a good thread. :up:

[HHURRICANE]

Well according to Jimbo and Jaws he does.

Also if you have 2.5 secs to throw the ball on 17 dropbacks, and 4 secs on 3 dropbacks, you really think he can make the best out of those 3 dropbacks?

DING, DING, DING. We have a winner!!