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View Full Version : Are the Coaches limiting JP?



justasportsfan
11-07-2006, 10:20 AM
Last year, more often then not KH audibled at the LOS. JP at times did the same thing. This year, it seems he isn't doing it. He sticks to the play that's called from upstairs.

I actually observed this at camp when they let him finish the play even if it was an obvious sack. Then I watched Wallace. He wasn't made to adjust to the system. All of a sudden the Seahwaks look diferent offensively. Wallace unlike JP wasn't made to stay in the pocket. They just let him play the game. They allowed him to do what he wanted to do.

I guess this is the reason why the coaches are being patient with JP. It's because they know it takes time for him to learn it their way.

Thoughts?

THATHURMANATOR
11-07-2006, 10:23 AM
Wasnt there an article that quotes Fairchild saying that they are making him stay in the pocket to learn to read defenses?

PECKERWOOD
11-07-2006, 10:24 AM
They are trying to help him grow in the pocket, and to be able to read defenses better. There was a really good article someone posted yesterday, in which Fairchild said, he is coaching JP to stay in the pocket this year and to only run as a last resort.. Next year, I think they will take the leash off him and let him scramble more, once he proves to Fairchild that he can be a good pocket QB if needed. Just my take from it, anyways.

THATHURMANATOR
11-07-2006, 10:27 AM
I don't mind them doing this but it almost doesn't make sense after a certain point if he would be more successful scrambling and rolling out more. When will they determine he has learned enough?

PECKERWOOD
11-07-2006, 10:32 AM
I don't mind them doing this but it almost doesn't make sense after a certain point if he would be more successful scrambling and rolling out more. When will they determine he has learned enough?
I would say when he can consistently beat teams with his arm.. He has done it before this year, but not consistently.

ICE74129
11-07-2006, 10:34 AM
I don't mind them doing this but it almost doesn't make sense after a certain point if he would be more successful scrambling and rolling out more. When will they determine he has learned enough?

When he is on IR from this crap OL letting guys come through unblocked, instead of letting him use his mobility.

justasportsfan
11-07-2006, 10:48 AM
Wasnt there an article that quotes Fairchild saying that they are making him stay in the pocket to learn to read defenses?Yup, there was one. But we're not even running rollout plays that could work to JP's advantage. If he indeed is told to stay in the pocket no matter what and with an OL like that, no one can just easily blame JP if he is forced to go against his stregth of running with the ball when the OL collapses for the sake of developing.

ICE74129
11-07-2006, 10:56 AM
Yup, there was one. But we're not even running rollout plays that could work to JP's advantage. If he indeed is told to stay in the pocket no matter what and with an OL like that, no one can just easily blame JP if he is forced to go against his stregth of running with the ball when the OL collapses for the sake of developing.

I will bring this up again, San Fran didn't make young stay in the pocket. He was allowed to scramble and they used rollouts all the time.

PECKERWOOD
11-07-2006, 11:13 AM
He is told to run only if its a last resort.

raphael120
11-07-2006, 11:18 AM
I think it's ******ed to limit a QB's skill set because you want him to pass in the pocket. Look around the NFL. The days of the pure pocket passer is coming to an end. I have no clue why JP is not rolling out. Look at Romo, look at Lienart, they roll out. Have to or they'd get spanked by the rush. Look at Gradkowski, Huard.

PECKERWOOD
11-07-2006, 11:35 AM
I think it's ******ed to limit a QB's skill set because you want him to pass in the pocket. Look around the NFL. The days of the pure pocket passer is coming to an end. I have no clue why JP is not rolling out. Look at Romo, look at Lienart, they roll out. Have to or they'd get spanked by the rush. Look at Gradkowski, Huard.

I think this move will benefit JP in the long haul. I dont want a RB at QB, unless its Michael Dick, I mean Vick. Once he can start beating defenses with his arm, they will respect him more, and in turn this could give him more running lanes if our WR's are covered..

Jan Reimers
11-07-2006, 11:43 AM
JP is a mobile, athletic QB with a big arm.

So what does our staff do? Gives him a Kelly Holcomb game plan and makes him play like Drew Bledsoe.

raphael120
11-07-2006, 11:45 AM
I think this move will benefit JP in the long haul. I dont want a RB at QB, unless its Michael Dick, I mean Vick. Once he can start beating defenses with his arm, they will respect him more, and in turn this could give him more running lanes if our WR's are covered..


you mean when romo rolls out and throws a TD pass to TO? I aint talkin about duckin and runnin, im just talkin buy yourself some extra time to run away from the OL's big fat asses that are barreling your way because they cant hold blocks, and COMPLETE A PASS

ScottLawrence
11-07-2006, 11:48 AM
You have it all wrong.

The coaches aren't limiting JP, JP is limiting the rest of the team.

He can't make presnap reads his 3rd year in the league.

justasportsfan
11-07-2006, 11:59 AM
You have it all wrong.

The coaches aren't limiting JP, JP is limiting the rest of the team.

He can't make presnap reads his 3rd year in the league.
no matter how hard you try, Holcomb isn't starting

PECKERWOOD
11-07-2006, 12:05 PM
you mean when romo rolls out and throws a TD pass to TO? I aint talkin about duckin and runnin, im just talkin buy yourself some extra time to run away from the OL's big fat asses that are barreling your way because they cant hold blocks, and COMPLETE A PASS

It wasnt clear what you were getting at.. But anyhow, JP does roll out and buy himself time, frequently. I'm not going to point out every small example, but how about those 2 bomb passes to Parrish? That was all JP.

raphael120
11-07-2006, 12:09 PM
It wasnt clear what you were getting at.. But anyhow, JP does roll out and buy himself time, frequently. I'm not going to point out every small example, but how about those 2 bomb passes to Parrish? That was all JP.

well we need more of that. see, the big plays happen when everything breaks down, JP leaves the pocket and makes a play. he doesnt make those plays with a stick up his butt watching the pocket collapse around him

PECKERWOOD
11-07-2006, 12:16 PM
well we need more of that. see, the big plays happen when everything breaks down, JP leaves the pocket and makes a play. he doesnt make those plays with a stick up his butt watching the pocket collapse around him


the big plays happen when everything breaks down, JP leaves the pocket and makes a play

That just isnt true, imo. 95% of the time when everything breaks down, it results in something bad.. JP just happens to make the most of it a couple times. Which is really impressive, people try to use that against him, but you cant blame a guy for making something out of nothing.. That could be just a shadow of what JP could be, if plays werent to break down all the time.. Can you imagine the size of some of the plays we would be seeing? WR's actually getting open, the line actually blocking? A running game to help compliment the passing game?? Holy shhhmokes.

HHURRICANE
11-07-2006, 12:22 PM
They are trying to help him grow in the pocket, and to be able to read defenses better. There was a really good article someone posted yesterday, in which Fairchild said, he is coaching JP to stay in the pocket this year and to only run as a last resort.. Next year, I think they will take the leash off him and let him scramble more, once he proves to Fairchild that he can be a good pocket QB if needed. Just my take from it, anyways.

I'd love to see the article because than I'd be more willing to give both Fairchild and JP a pass. Also, that pretty much kills any idea that JP won't be starting next year.

LtBillsFan66
11-07-2006, 12:23 PM
If he was any good he wouldn't still need to learn in his 3rd year.

HHURRICANE
11-07-2006, 12:26 PM
If he was any good he wouldn't still need to learn in his 3rd year.

Yeah, with 16 starts he should already be a hall-of-famer!! Any other dumb comments that we can add to this board?!

PECKERWOOD
11-07-2006, 12:29 PM
I'd love to see the article because than I'd be more willing to give both Fairchild and JP a pass. Also, that pretty much kills any idea that JP won't be starting next year.

Here ya go, its from Chris Brown's blog.. http://buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?post_id=575


<TABLE style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #002d78 1px solid" width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>November 5, 2006
</TD><TD align=right>Posted By: Chris Brown | Time: 10:47 AM ET | Link (http://buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?post_id=575)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
J.P. QUESTION: I recently got a question from a fan in my askchris email box that I thought I'd post here on my blog, since I've been asked this quite a few times. Here's the question and my answer. Hope this helps to shed some light on things.
Hi Chris,

Do you think the coaching staff is suffocating JP in the pocket that seems to keep collapsing?Lets face it its just not his style.Maybe they should look back at college film and see what he is comfortable doing.Not that Im a expert but he has made some great passes on the run.Maybe he is over thinking stay in the pocket stay in the pocket as he gets plowed again and again.Does what comes natural mean anything?Thank you for keeping us informed you must love your job.

Vermont Fan

MY ANSWER
Vermont fan
I actually talked to Steve Fairchild about this very subject this week. He maintains the way to develop J.P. the fastest is to keep him in the pocket and force him to read defenses and only use his running ability as a last resort. I agree allowing a running QB to use his legs prematurely on a play stunts their growth in reading defenses because they don't hang in there long enough to watch things unfold.

I think that's why he is a slow reader right now, because his college coaches let him run around all over the place. As a result he saw less plays from the pocket and now is less experienced than players like Phillip Rivers who are forced to read defenses because they don't have the same mobility. Michael Vick only now is starting to read defenses effectively and he's in his fifth season.

I think Fairchild is committed to developing Losman's ability to read defenses knowing he's going to take his lumps. But I think he feels if J.P. is going to be successful at this level that he has to go through this process to understand and read defenses properly. If he doesn't he'll never get better and never be a consistent or effective QB.

LOSMAN RUNNING TODAY: Despite all this staying in the pocket talk. Today might be a day where he takes off to run a bit more. The reason why is the Packers play a lot of man-to-man defense, which typically offers a few more running lanes to quarterbacks. A month ago Donovan McNabb ran five times for 47 yards and two touchdowns against Green Bay. You might see J.P. take off a bit more today.


---

That is exactly what I thought about JP. Don't forget he started only two years in Tulane as well. In contrast, Philip Rivers started all 4 years in college, double the experience of JP!

If I were the GM of the Bills in 2004, I would not draft JPL at all for this simple reason. Too much risk. Look at Vick. This is his fifth year and he finally starts to put it together. If you are not Vick, you would not get away with so many things with your athletic ability the first 4 years. You would be playing QB in CFL by now.

That said, if you are Levy and Jauron, what do you do when you have Losman in your hand, entering his third year? To be honest, I think Losman absolutely had no idea what he was doing at all the first two years (and his teamates can see that easily, let alone a fan like me). This year is the first time he sounded like he knows what he's talking about, so I presume that he started to get a realistic feel of the game in NFL. He began to learn to read defenses. I applaud Fairchild's approach to force him to do that. I think every week, JP is seeing new things that he never saw before (well maybe he saw them before last year but he didn't know what he was looking at then). It's a learning experience.

Realistically, major improvement of JP, if there is one, will come next year. But the coaching staff will have a much better idea by the end of this year. That's when they will decide if JP is just a slow learner or does not have it all.

The rollouts, the scramble will come when JP gets the defense reading part down because then he'll know that's the right thing to do. To me those fumbles and sacks are all part of this learning process. Like everyone else, I gets frustrated at him at times. But in terms of his development, he's at least a year behind Eli, Ben and Philip from the day he was drafted. Coaching changes and offense philosophy changes don't help either (anyone else noticed that all the other 3 QBs have been with the same coaching staff, the same offense the whole time in their career so far?).

The bottom line: we just have to be patient with JP. That's if Ralph does not come in and demand a change this winter.

Mr. Pink
11-07-2006, 12:33 PM
Personally I think JPs lack of a brain and football knowledge is limiting him more than the coaching staff.

HHURRICANE
11-07-2006, 12:34 PM
Here ya go, its from Chris Brown's blog.. http://buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?post_id=575


<TABLE style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #002d78 1px solid" width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>November 5, 2006

</TD><TD align=right>Posted By: Chris Brown | Time: 10:47 AM ET | Link (http://buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?post_id=575)


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
J.P. QUESTION: I recently got a question from a fan in my askchris email box that I thought I'd post here on my blog, since I've been asked this quite a few times. Here's the question and my answer. Hope this helps to shed some light on things.
Hi Chris,

Do you think the coaching staff is suffocating JP in the pocket that seems to keep collapsing?Lets face it its just not his style.Maybe they should look back at college film and see what he is comfortable doing.Not that Im a expert but he has made some great passes on the run.Maybe he is over thinking stay in the pocket stay in the pocket as he gets plowed again and again.Does what comes natural mean anything?Thank you for keeping us informed you must love your job.

Vermont Fan

MY ANSWER
Vermont fan
I actually talked to Steve Fairchild about this very subject this week. He maintains the way to develop J.P. the fastest is to keep him in the pocket and force him to read defenses and only use his running ability as a last resort. I agree allowing a running QB to use his legs prematurely on a play stunts their growth in reading defenses because they don't hang in there long enough to watch things unfold.

I think that's why he is a slow reader right now, because his college coaches let him run around all over the place. As a result he saw less plays from the pocket and now is less experienced than players like Phillip Rivers who are forced to read defenses because they don't have the same mobility. Michael Vick only now is starting to read defenses effectively and he's in his fifth season.

I think Fairchild is committed to developing Losman's ability to read defenses knowing he's going to take his lumps. But I think he feels if J.P. is going to be successful at this level that he has to go through this process to understand and read defenses properly. If he doesn't he'll never get better and never be a consistent or effective QB.

LOSMAN RUNNING TODAY: Despite all this staying in the pocket talk. Today might be a day where he takes off to run a bit more. The reason why is the Packers play a lot of man-to-man defense, which typically offers a few more running lanes to quarterbacks. A month ago Donovan McNabb ran five times for 47 yards and two touchdowns against Green Bay. You might see J.P. take off a bit more today.


---

That is exactly what I thought about JP. Don't forget he started only two years in Tulane as well. In contrast, Philip Rivers started all 4 years in college, double the experience of JP!

If I were the GM of the Bills in 2004, I would not draft JPL at all for this simple reason. Too much risk. Look at Vick. This is his fifth year and he finally starts to put it together. If you are not Vick, you would not get away with so many things with your athletic ability the first 4 years. You would be playing QB in CFL by now.

That said, if you are Levy and Jauron, what do you do when you have Losman in your hand, entering his third year? To be honest, I think Losman absolutely had no idea what he was doing at all the first two years (and his teamates can see that easily, let alone a fan like me). This year is the first time he sounded like he knows what he's talking about, so I presume that he started to get a realistic feel of the game in NFL. He began to learn to read defenses. I applaud Fairchild's approach to force him to do that. I think every week, JP is seeing new things that he never saw before (well maybe he saw them before last year but he didn't know what he was looking at then). It's a learning experience.

Realistically, major improvement of JP, if there is one, will come next year. But the coaching staff will have a much better idea by the end of this year. That's when they will decide if JP is just a slow learner or does not have it all.

The rollouts, the scramble will come when JP gets the defense reading part down because then he'll know that's the right thing to do. To me those fumbles and sacks are all part of this learning process. Like everyone else, I gets frustrated at him at times. But in terms of his development, he's at least a year behind Eli, Ben and Philip from the day he was drafted. Coaching changes and offense philosophy changes don't help either (anyone else noticed that all the other 3 QBs have been with the same coaching staff, the same offense the whole time in their career so far?).

The bottom line: we just have to be patient with JP. That's if Ralph does not come in and demand a change this winter.

Can everyone just STFU!!! Fever you're the man!!

The coaching staff is committed to him being a better QB. So he's obviously going to take a few more sacks when you are repressing your urge to scramble. All the more reason that your OL can't suck!!

PECKERWOOD
11-07-2006, 02:42 PM
Can everyone just STFU!!! Fever you're the man!!

The coaching staff is committed to him being a better QB. So he's obviously going to take a few more sacks when you are repressing your urge to scramble. All the more reason that your OL can't suck!!

Agreed, look how long it took Vick to develop into a decent passer.. This could help speed up that process for JP, instead of it taking 5+ years, he could develop a presence in the pocket in a year or so.

So to all 'hata's!' Unless Ralphie steps in and orders the removal of JP, he will most likely finish out the season and be our QB next year also.

PECKERWOOD
11-07-2006, 02:46 PM
Personally I think JPs lack of a brain and football knowledge is limiting him more than the coaching staff.


JPs lack of a brain

JP very much so has a brain. He studied Greek and Latin at Tulane, probably a much better education than you have.


football knowledge

This is a point you could argue further, though.. However, Sam Wyche sure had some high praises for JP. He said that JP spent more time studying and dissecting film, than any other player/QB he has seen. Does that make him smart football-wise? No. But it sure does imply that he has enough dedication and discipline to work through it.

mybills
11-07-2006, 03:08 PM
JP is a mobile, athletic QB with a big arm.

So what does our staff do? Gives him a Kelly Holcomb game plan and makes him play like Drew Bledsoe.
yup.