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View Full Version : Lost in the Win..... a critical clock management mistake.



jimmifli
11-19-2006, 05:58 PM
With 3:16 left the Bills got the ball on their own 38 yard line.

The series went like this:<o:p></o:p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 393pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" height="95" width="524"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" id="play"> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> 1-10-BUF38<o:p></o:p>
</td> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> (3:16) J.Losman pass incomplete short middle to L.Evans (D.Faggins).<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" id="play"> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> 2-10-BUF38<o:p></o:p>
</td> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> (3:12) (Shotgun) J.Losman pass short middle to A.Thomas to BUF 44 for 6 yards (D.McCleon) [J.Babin].<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" id="play"> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> 3-4-BUF44<o:p></o:p>
</td> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> (2:31) (Shotgun) J.Losman pass incomplete deep left to L.Evans.<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" id="play"> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> 4-4-BUF44<o:p></o:p>
</td> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> (2:25) B.Moorman punts 45 yards to HST 11, Center-M.Schneck, fair catch by D.Wynn. (Punt hang time 5.1 seconds.)<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
I have a problem with the decision to punt. It left us in a very precarious situation.

The Texans got the ball on their own 12 yard line with 2:17 remaining on the clock. The Bills had two timeouts and the 2-minute warning. That meant that a single <st1:City w:st="on">Houston</st1:City> first down would win the game for <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Houston</st1:place></st1:City>.

The drive went as follows:<o:p></o:p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" id="play"> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> 1-10-HOU11<o:p></o:p>
</td> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> (2:17) S.Gado right tackle to HST 12 for 1 yard (C.Kelsay).<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" id="play"> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> 2-9-HOU12<o:p></o:p>
</td> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> (2:11) S.Gado up the middle to HST 19 for 7 yards (T.Anderson, C.Wire).<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" id="play"> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> 3-2-HOU19<o:p></o:p>
</td> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> (2:00) D.Carr pass incomplete short left to A.Johnson (N.Clements).<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" id="play"> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> 4-2-HOU19<o:p></o:p>
</td> <td style="padding: 1.5pt; height: 12.75pt;"> (1:57) C.Stanley punts 36 yards to BUF 45, Center-B.Pittman, fair catch by R.Parrish. (Punt hang time 4.9 seconds.)<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
The Bills were able to hold the Texans to a three and out, and the stop resulted in a short field for JP. The fact that the decision worked out isn't relevant, it was a percentage play and the decision made went against the odds.

In the previous nine drives the Bills D gave up a first down in eight of them. They were only able to force a single three and out, up to that point in the game. So the Bills rested the game on the defense's ability to force a 3 and out, 1/9 odds.

Those are very bad odds. But before we can make a judgment we need to look at the alternative: The Bills go for it on fourth down.

If the Bills go for it and make it, they keep the drive alive and have equal field position , their own 44 yard line. They also have more time, two timeouts and the two minute warning. Clearly a superior position than the one JP was forced to play from. What are the odds that they make it on 4th? Who knows but they can't be any worse than 1/9. The Bills were 1/1 on 4th down conversions and 4/14 on 3rd down conversions up to that point in the game. Those odds look considerably better than 1/9.

Additionally, if the Bills fail to convert on 4th down we put the defense in the same situation as they were in anyways, needing a three and out. If the defense gets the 3 and out, the offense would be in a similar situation, except they would have worse field position.

So basically, going for it on 4th down would've given the Bills two chances to win. By making it, or by stopping the opponent and then driving for a TD. By punting there is only one way to win.


I see no advantage to punting. It was a bad call that played against the odds.

The defense and the offense bailed out the coaching staff's poor decision. Hats off to the D for the final 3 and out, and hats off to JP and the O for the final drive.

OpIv37
11-19-2006, 06:01 PM
add to that that the Texans decided to throw on 3rd and 3 with under 2 min left when they were trying to kill the clock and averaging 7.0 YPC against our D. Jauron got a break on that one.

Mitchy moo
11-19-2006, 06:03 PM
Well I started a thread on this and lost it but you broke it down in depth. I knew it was a poor call the moment it happened. I figured we could get the ball back on our 30 with less time or just get the clock ran out on us again.

You go with the odds, we blew the call.

The_Philster
11-19-2006, 06:04 PM
I agree...we lucked out on that one, IMO. Our D wasn't stopping them very well. Thankfully they made a piss poor playcall and Nate made a play

Mitchy moo
11-19-2006, 06:05 PM
add to that that the Texans decided to throw on 3rd and 3 with under 2 min left when they were trying to kill the clock and averaging 7.0 YPC against our D. Jauron got a break on that one.

and add to that carr completed 21 straight passes up to that point, I have know idea what DJ was thinking.

YardRat
11-19-2006, 06:06 PM
Sometimes you have to buck the odds in order to be successful.

It worked, therefore it is a good call. If the Texans would have run the clock out on their last drive and the Bills would've lost, then it would have been questionable.

jimmifli
11-19-2006, 06:09 PM
Sometimes you have to buck the odds in order to be successful.

It worked, therefore it is a good call. If the Texans would have run the clock out on their last drive and the Bills would've lost, then it would have been questionable.
No. The coaching staff's job is by definition, to put the players in the best position possible to win.

His decision put the players in a very low percentage position. That's poor coaching.

The fact that it work out made it a good play, not a good call.

DynaPaul
11-19-2006, 06:11 PM
I didn't understand the punt then. Our defense wasn't really shutting them down and I thought Jauron had way too much faith in them. Luckily they did manage to shut the Texans down for a series and the offense took it from there to get the win.

Bufftp
11-19-2006, 06:13 PM
With 3:16 left the Bills got the ball on their own 38 yard line.

The series went like this:<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 393pt" height=95 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=524 border=0><TBODY><TR id=play style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt"><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">1-10-BUF38<o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">(3:16) J.Losman pass incomplete short middle to L.Evans (D.Faggins).<o:p></o:p>

</TD></TR><TR id=play style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt"><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">2-10-BUF38<o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">(3:12) (Shotgun) J.Losman pass short middle to A.Thomas to BUF 44 for 6 yards (D.McCleon) [J.Babin].<o:p></o:p>

</TD></TR><TR id=play style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt"><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">3-4-BUF44<o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">(2:31) (Shotgun) J.Losman pass incomplete deep left to L.Evans.<o:p></o:p>

</TD></TR><TR id=play style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt"><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">4-4-BUF44<o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">(2:25) B.Moorman punts 45 yards to HST 11, Center-M.Schneck, fair catch by D.Wynn. (Punt hang time 5.1 seconds.)<o:p></o:p>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I have a problem with the decision to punt. It left us in a very precarious situation.

The Texans got the ball on their own 12 yard line with 2:17 remaining on the clock. The Bills had two timeouts and the 2-minute warning. That meant that a single <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:City w:st="on">Houston</st1:City> first down would win the game for <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Houston</st1:place></st1:City>.

The drive went as follows:<o:p></o:p>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR id=play style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt"><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">1-10-HOU11<o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">(2:17) S.Gado right tackle to HST 12 for 1 yard (C.Kelsay).<o:p></o:p>

</TD></TR><TR id=play style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt"><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">2-9-HOU12<o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">(2:11) S.Gado up the middle to HST 19 for 7 yards (T.Anderson, C.Wire).<o:p></o:p>

</TD></TR><TR id=play style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt"><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">3-2-HOU19<o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">(2:00) D.Carr pass incomplete short left to A.Johnson (N.Clements).<o:p></o:p>

</TD></TR><TR id=play style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt"><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">4-2-HOU19<o:p></o:p>

</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1.5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 1.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 1.5pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt">(1:57) C.Stanley punts 36 yards to BUF 45, Center-B.Pittman, fair catch by R.Parrish. (Punt hang time 4.9 seconds.)<o:p></o:p>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The Bills were able to hold the Texans to a three and out, and the stop resulted in a short field for JP. The fact that the decision worked out isn't relevant, it was a percentage play and the decision made went against the odds.

In the previous nine drives the Bills D gave up a first down in eight of them. They were only able to force a single three and out, up to that point in the game. So the Bills rested the game on the defense's ability to force a 3 and out, 1/9 odds.

Those are very bad odds. But before we can make a judgment we need to look at the alternative: The Bills go for it on fourth down.

If the Bills go for it and make it, they keep the drive alive and have equal field position , their own 44 yard line. They also have more time, two timeouts and the two minute warning. Clearly a superior position than the one JP was forced to play from. What are the odds that they make it on 4th? Who knows but they can't be any worse than 1/9. The Bills were 1/1 on 4th down conversions and 4/14 on 3rd down conversions up to that point in the game. Those odds look considerably better than 1/9.

Additionally, if the Bills fail to convert on 4th down we put the defense in the same situation as they were in anyways, needing a three and out. If the defense gets the 3 and out, the offense would be in a similar situation, except they would have worse field position.

So basically, going for it on 4th down would've given the Bills two chances to win. By making it, or by stopping the opponent and then driving for a TD. By punting there is only one way to win.


I see no advantage to punting. It was a bad call that played against the odds.

The defense and the offense bailed out the coaching staff's poor decision. Hats off to the D for the final 3 and out, and hats off to JP and the O for the final drive.
we won. do have to deconstruct everything?

TigerJ
11-19-2006, 06:16 PM
I agree. There were a few coaching decision in the game that I question, but that was the biggest.

Mitchy moo
11-19-2006, 06:17 PM
Poor coaching choices have put us at 4-6 right now, so how do you justify mistakes?

jimmifli
11-19-2006, 06:17 PM
we won. do have to deconstruct everything?
Anything to add or are meaningless posts your regular schtick?

YardRat
11-19-2006, 06:19 PM
No. The coaching staff's job is by definition, to put the players in the best position possible to win.

His decision put the players in a very low percentage position. That's poor coaching.

The fact that it work out made it a good play, not a good call.

Then I would argue you need to rephrase your initial post.

It wasn't poor clock management, because the team had two time-outs plus the two-minute warning. A three-and-out would give the team enough time to score offensively.

Proper clock management.

Poor strategy decision, maybe in your view, because the odds were against them. Definitely not poor clock management.

jimmifli
11-19-2006, 06:33 PM
I don't understand your argument.

The alternative was a better choice. It would've provided better odds of success with more time and more timeouts for JP and the offense. That's good clock management.

The chosen strategy resulted in a low percentage play that required only a single first down and the Bills wouldn't get to touch the ball again.
Both choices provided a chance of success, I think one choice was better than the other. I haven't seen any reason why my initial post is wrong.

MikeInRoch
11-19-2006, 06:44 PM
Most people consider when timeouts are called to be clock management, not when you should or should not punt.

YardRat
11-19-2006, 06:52 PM
A successful fourth down play would've run the clock down to the two-minute warning, thus actually losing 17 seconds, which is more significant than the 9 seconds lost on the two punt plays. Assuming the fourth down was unsuccessful, and the play outcome from that point remained the same, the Texas punt is actually moot because a similar time would've run off the clock. So you're basically talking trading 17 seconds for 5, or the amount of time for Moorman's punt. That's a loss of 12 seconds.

I don't know where you're coming up with the 'more time-outs'.

Also, considering field position, I think it's fair to assume that the resulting field position from the punt and poor first two plays had a large impact on the Texas play-calling on third down. Deep in their own territory, facing a punt if they run unsuccessfully, and giving Buffalo good field position with time left on the clock. If Houston had taken over at mid-field and and faced a third down under the same circumstances, I'm sure the play call would've been run, punt, pin the ball deep (as they had been doing all day) and put Buffalo in worse position...close to the same amount of time left, but a lot more field to cover.

jimmifli
11-19-2006, 06:56 PM
Most people consider when timeouts are called to be clock management, not when you should or should not punt.
Then most people are stupid.

Would you punt on fourth down trailing by 4 with 12 seconds left? Ofcourse not. Why? Because the clock dictates that you go for it.

Besides, this was the play that determined when you would call the timeouts. Would they be used on defense or would they be used on offense.

YardRat
11-19-2006, 07:00 PM
Would you punt on fourth down trailing by 4 with 12 seconds left? Ofcourse not. Why? Because the clock dictates that you go for it.


That's not clock management, either. That's situation management.

jimmifli
11-19-2006, 07:12 PM
A successful fourth down play would've run the clock down to the two-minute warning, thus actually losing 17 seconds, which is more significant than the 9 seconds lost on the two punt plays. Assuming the fourth down was unsuccessful, and the play outcome from that point remained the same, the Texas punt is actually moot because a similar time would've run off the clock. So you're basically talking trading 17 seconds for 5, or the amount of time for Moorman's punt. That's a loss of 12 seconds.

I don't know where you're coming up with the 'more time-outs'.


The offense would've had 2 timeouts to use since the defense wouldn't need to use one. JP would've also had a first down at the two minute mark. That's an extra 16 seconds than he got. If they went for it and made it he gets more time and an extra timeout. Seems logical to me. Do you see "where I'm coming up with more time-outs" now?






Also, considering field position, I think it's fair to assume that the resulting field position from the punt and poor first two plays had a large impact on the Texas play-calling on third down. Deep in their own territory, facing a punt if they run unsuccessfully, and giving Buffalo good field position with time left on the clock. If Houston had taken over at mid-field and and faced a third down under the same circumstances, I'm sure the play call would've been run, punt, pin the ball deep (as they had been doing all day) and put Buffalo in worse position...close to the same amount of time left, but a lot more field to cover.

Yes the position would've been much worse. But that's a second chance. The odds that the offense could succeed from deep in their own end with no timeouts and about 1:00-1:30 remaining are very low.

But, remember, going for it on 4th offered better odds alone than punting. So the fact that the Bills even have a second chance is a pure bonus.

I still can't see a compelling argument for punting.

jimmifli
11-19-2006, 07:15 PM
That's not clock management, either. That's situation management.
Whatever. It's ****ing semantics. The coaching staff ****ed up. If you want to say they ****ed up situation management instead of clock management then go ahead. I don't feel like arguing over what to call the **** up.

They get paid a lot of money to not **** up simple decisions like this.
They ****ed up. It disturbs me.

YardRat
11-19-2006, 07:19 PM
Whatever. It's ****ing semantics. The coaching staff ****ed up. If you want to say they ****ed up situation management instead of clock management then go ahead. I don't feel like arguing over what to call the **** up.

They get paid a lot of money to not **** up simple decisions like this.
They ****ed up. It disturbs me.

:roflmao:

I love it when you get on a roll!

jimmifli
11-19-2006, 07:25 PM
It's much easier to argue when you are right.

YardRat
11-19-2006, 07:39 PM
:beers: