Minor Detail About JP

[gr8slayer]

I was actually at the game and as you all know you can see so much more from the stands than you can from the couch. After we scored our first two TD's and FG Houston started to take over with their Defense, we couldnt run and we sure as hell couldnt pass. Everyone remembers last year against Miami. Losman and Evans come out and destroy with 3 (?) TD's right off the bat, then Mularkey decides he is going to stop passing, stop doing what we were doing so well, and we lost. Well we almost saw that again on Sunday, there were WR's open downfield. Maybe not all day but they were there, I dont know if JP just didnt see them or if Jauron and Co. told Losman to lay off and be conservative.

Now to the minor detail. I think on Sunday we saw Losman finally take over as leader of the Offense. If you notice, the first three quarters he stayed in the pocket, stepped up a couple of times but never took off. Then in the forth quarter he started to move around, get outside of the pocket, just flat out make plays. So this leads me to wonder, are Jauron and Co. trying to do to Losman what Mora Jr. and Co. did to Vick? Trying to make him a pocket passer? I think you should coach to your players strengths. Fact is, Losman is a guy who needs to get outside to pocket to be effective. I honestly dont think he will ever be a pocket type of QB, and if they try to make him one he will be looking for work in a year.

Anyway, rambling I know but I just sometimes wonder if the coaches are holding him back.

[Goobylal]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

They were, but before this game they decided to open-up the playbook and let him move around more. After Sunday, they'll probably open things up even more.

[PECKERWOOD]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

It's generous to assert that the coaches were even letting him sit in the pocket and pass the ball a week prior to the Houston game. At most, he was simply handing the ball off.. This week they took the reigns off of Losman, as they should have and he succeeded. He has some quick feet, man. It's nice that he isn't scrambling every other play, but it is nice to know that he has the ability to pick up the first down with his legs, if it is needed.

[gr8slayer]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

There was one play that stood out to me over any other. I think it was in the third quarter. It was third and two inside the opposing fifty. Houston brings a four man rush, we spread them wide. Their DT and blitzing LB both go to the outside of the Center leaving the middle COMPLETELY WIDE ASSED OPEN. Losman could have easily picked up the first down and maybe even ten or more yards. He of course did not run it and we of course did not get the first down. But it leads me to wonder again, do you think the coaches asked him not to run in that kind of a situation?

[ParanoidAndroid]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

I think this way of playing is forcing JP to learn how to use the pocket. If he is going to be successful at this level, he's going to have to throw from the pocket. The NFL is too fast to play the college game. That's one reason why you don't see the option in the NFL.

[gr8slayer]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

I think this way of playing is forcing JP to learn how to use the pocket. If he is going to be successful at this level, he's going to have to throw from the pocket. The NFL is too fast to play the college game. That's one reason why you don't see the option in the NFL.

I'm not implying that we even attempt to use the option but I do think that we should play to his strength and get him outside of the pocket.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

While they will never admit it in a million years, I think that this coaching staff knew going into this season that it didn't have the horses to contend for a playoff berth and they decided to make this a year when they were going to try to teach JP how to be a NFL QB---1. to see if he was capable of learning how to be one, and 2. to determine whether they really would need to go out and get a QB next off-season.

I also think that they very quickly determined that JP didn't know how to or was not very good at reading NFL defenses and that his footwork was lousy (which was negatively impacting his accuracy on short and mid-range throws). As a result, IMHO, they decided to really focus on seeing if they could improve those two things by basically forcing him to stay in the pocket, make his reads and concentrate on setting his feet properly. If you listen to some of JP's interviews during training camp and early in the season, you will hear him talking about the coaches getting on him about his footwork and about them wanting him to go through all of his reads.

Believe it or not, this makes sense: QBs who run and improvise a lot in college often have difficulty making the transition to the NFL because, in college, they often use their feet to pick up yardage rather than going through a whole read-progression and to make plays that make up for the inaccuracies that result from their poor footwork. Because most running QBs typically do not have the best footwork or ability to read defenses, it often takes some time for them to learn how to properly set their feet and make the proper reads. For example, it took a couple of years for Steve Young (everyone remembers him in SF, but he was horrible in TB his first few seasons) to learn these skills properly and M.Vick is still trying to learn them.

Because QBs who are allowed to run a lot take longer to learn, one way to force them to learn is to, in effect, force them to stay in the pocket and run only as a last resort. This can seem to be counter-productive and the result can be pretty ugly at first, but it does have its benefits in that, the sooner the young QB learns to read defenses properly and gets his footwork down in the pocket, the sooner he will be able to limit his turnovers and the better his accuracy will be once the coaches take the chains off later on.

Of course, while the QB is "chained" in the pocket, it really helps if you can keep him from getting killed and give him time to go through all of his read-progressions. And, that has definitely been a problem for the Bills this season with their pathetic offensive line. As much as the Bills coaches want JP to learn how to read defenses properly and get his footwork down, they don't want him to get injured on a sack or have his confidence destroyed while he is still in the learning process by having him throw the ball up a lot against teams that they know will be able to put a lot of pressure on him. Hence, they have picked their spots when they have let him throw the ball with some frequency and have limited his passing attempts against teams that they felt would be able to generate a big pass rush (ie Green Bay and Indy, to name just two).

You could say that they are "babying" him or that they are slowing or handcuffing his development by taking this approach, but I think that they are taking a longer view than just this season and have made a conscious choice to take a very measured, step-by-step approach to developing JP, starting with the fundamentals, in an effort to get him to overcome the bad habits that he learned in the past and to a point where he will have the skills needed to use his physical talents more effectively down the road.

That's why I think the Bills have been doing what they have been doing with JP thus far this season and why, after a game like this one, you hear Jauron saying that he likes what he sees from JP, but that there is still a long way to go in his development. That's because they are looking for specific things from him that are part of the developmental process that they want him to go through that we fans are not entirely aware of.

Now, of course, you are never going to hear them say that. They can't. Because they have a locker-room full of other players that they have to keep motivated to keep working and playing this season--some of whom they are also trying to develop, like JP, for the future and some of whom they already know they are going to get rid of or have to replace in order for the Bills to be successful down the road. Coaching for the future and, at the same time, trying to put the players that you have in the best position to be successful that you can--even though you know that, as a group, they are not yet good enough to be contenders--is a delicate balancing act. And, what you are seeing from Jauron and his coaching staff is really what can be expected from an intelligent, quiet, measured man like Jauron--a logical, very rational, measured approach that may not always be the right approach or produce the right outcome, but that makes a lot of sense in rational terms.

Will it make JP a better QB? Or the Bills a better team? I don't know. Probably not right away, as in this season. But, I don't think that there is any doubt that Losman has improved a lot over last season (and that Jauron is right about him still having a long way to go yet). And that has to mean that, at least to a certain extent, the approach that they have been taking with him has been working and has yielded some positive results (although not all or always positive results). So, let's see where it leads....

Personally, I would be very surprised to see JP winging the ball a lot the next two games, particularly against San Diego (with their offense, I expect the Bills to try to play them ugly like they did the Colts), especially if they can get anything going in the running game and are able to keep the game close early on. Against Miami, the Jets and Titans, though, it could be a different story. But, we'll just have to see--I could be totally wrong about this.

[jamze132]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

I think JP should run more on 3rd down pas plays if nothing is immediately open. There is no sense in standing in the pocket while it collapses around you waiting for someone to get open. The most important part of moving the football is getting those 3rd downs. And not to mention, that when a defense is on it's heals thinking they got the receivers covered and a decent rush on, the QB slips out and runs 5-6 yards for a chain-moving play. Let the kid run.

[mybills]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

you can see so much more from the stands than you can from the couch.

So this leads me to wonder,

Trying to make him a pocket passer?

We've all known that by watching from the couch.

[justasportsfan]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

Rewatched the game last night and the few plays I remember as best as I can are ...

towards the end of the 1st qtr. I thought I saw JP audible a play. The play was run to the RIGHT side. Result, A-Thomas runs for 12 yds and a 1st down.

start of the 2nd qtr. 4th and 1. JP calls a hard count and HOus. is offsides( He obviously learned that from Holcomb but still isn't as good as KH) , the play results in a completion to Shelton for a 1st down , penalty is declined.

Next series 3rd and 7 from HOustons 22 yd line - play action. JP fakes a hand off , fools the DL ( but still not as good as selling the play like Drew used to) rolls to his right and slings the ball to Evans(or was it Parrish?) at the 5 yd. line in which he drops the ball. Kicking team comes in and scores a fg.Had the wr caught the ball , 1st and goal from the 5 yd line.

JP is learning. He's obviously starting to do the right things. I know it was only Houston but with an OL that's still learning the ropes, he did an almost perfect job except for that INT which was set up but the inability to run the ball out of danger.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

I'm not implying that we even attempt to use the option but I do think that we should play to his strength and get him outside of the pocket.

I don't diasgree. I'm just thinking that their idea is to put him in an environment where he learns how to use the pocket, sort of by force. Then, when he has developed that skill and mindset, he can be set free to make plays either in or outside the pocket.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

start of the 2nd qtr. 4th and 1. JP calls a hard count and HOus. is offsides( He obviously learned that from Holcomb but still isn't as good as KH) , the play results in a completion to Shelton for a 1st down , penalty is declined.

JP was doing that from his first start last year. I remember him being more successful drawing the offsides than Holcomb last year. If he learned it from Holcomb, then I would argue that he is the Darth Vader of apprentices in that regard.

[justasportsfan]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

I remember watching the Bucs' Lynch on NFLN. They were watching film on Holcomb's hard count because thye were playng the bills . No matter how hard they tried on gameday , KH drew them offsides so many times. Problem is, with the young OL we have, they too get drawn into falls starts. We did get our ass handed anyways.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

I remember watching the Bucs' Lynch on NFLN. They were watching film on Holcomb's hard count because thye were playng the bills . No matter how hard they tried on gameday , KH drew them offsides so many times. Problem is, with the young OL we have, they too get drawn into falls starts. We did get our ass handed anyways.

If you're talking about last year, JP started against Tampa Bay.

The game before, Losman drew Houston offsides no less than four times.

Against the Bucs, JP drew them offsides 3 times in one drive.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Re: Minor Detail About JP

Now to the minor detail. I think on Sunday we saw Losman finally take over as leader of the Offense

Didn't anybody see where JP ran down the field to celebrate the first TD and the entire offense ran right by him?