To fix this defense use the 'X' formula

[ICE74129]

X = both DT's, then Middle LB, then Both safetys. If you look at our D from a sky view you understand what I am saying.

We lack the Big DT for starters. Fletcher is too undersized for this defense so he needs to be upgraded as well.

The safetys need to be athletic and we have those. I feel if we address DT and ILB (and some revamping at OLB) we can make drastic improvements but only if Marv and Co are willing to bring in a couple big maulers at DT. One to start next to tripplet, and one to rotate in with the other mauler.

[kernowboy]

I think the problem is the DTs this year in the draft are comparatively small unless the Juniors come out and then we risk overpaying for them. There is not a lot in FA at the moment either ... I hate getting players on the downside of their careers, prefering to go with youth and the best UFA at present is Ian Scott of the Bears. In the draft a guy with a good run stop rep is Justin Harrell who plays hurt and is a character guy. He's 6.4 and 300lbs but could add another 15lbs. from the small schools there is the Saginaw Valley St NT Damion DeRosia at 6.5 and 320lbs

At LB there are few top LBs and teams will seriously overpay. I would look at drafting Posluzny or Willis in R1. Both can play ILB or OLB and could swap during the game with Crowell to at least confuse the opposition

[ICE74129]

I think the problem is the DTs this year in the draft are comparatively small unless the Juniors come out and then we risk overpaying for them. There is not a lot in FA at the moment either ... I hate getting players on the downside of their careers, prefering to go with youth and the best UFA at present is Ian Scott of the Bears. In the draft a guy with a good run stop rep is Justin Harrell who plays hurt and is a character guy. He's 6.4 and 300lbs but could add another 15lbs. from the small schools there is the Saginaw Valley St NT Damion DeRosia at 6.5 and 320lbs

At LB there are few top LBs and teams will seriously overpay. I would look at drafting Posluzny or Willis in R1. Both can play ILB or OLB and could swap during the game with Crowell to at least confuse the opposition

There was at least one DT in this last draft that would have worked for us...

[eyedog]

There was at least one DT in this last draft that would have worked for us...

Yeah but he 'didn't fit the system". Instead we got these d-tackles that "fit the system" but they all suck and can't stop anybody's running game. Game after game it's steamroll time. Personally I'm sick of this system and from what I can see the only team that succeds with it is Chicago. Indy sucks against the run also which is why they will lose in the play-offs against SDiego unless they put up 40+ points.

[BigBoltIke]

Yeah but he 'didn't fit the system". Instead we got these d-tackles that "fit the system" but they all suck and can't stop anybody's running game. Game after game it's steamroll time. Personally I'm sick of this system and from what I can see the only team that succeds with it is Chicago. Indy sucks against the run also which is why they will lose in the play-offs against SDiego unless they put up 40+ points.

The funny part is that 40 probably isn't enough against the Chargers.

[ICE74129]

Yeah but he 'didn't fit the system". Instead we got these d-tackles that "fit the system" but they all suck and can't stop anybody's running game. Game after game it's steamroll time. Personally I'm sick of this system and from what I can see the only team that succeds with it is Chicago. Indy sucks against the run also which is why they will lose in the play-offs against SDiego unless they put up 40+ points.

See thats what gets me. the 'Tampa 2' is sucking for the guy that did the greatest to develop it (dungy in Indy) and in Tampa its self.

All things have their time. the WCO, The KGUN Etc. Teams adapt after a certain amount of time. You can keep basicly the same idea but you need to adapt

[mysticsoto]

Why can't we adapt the Tampa-2 and change our Dline such that they are all run stoppers. If we have a fast, athletic secondary...run stoppers at the Line would seem ideal. You can't run, you are forced to pass, and our athletic, fast secondary can handle you (maybe even with some speedy LBs help).

Seems like it's ideal to have some run stuffers clogging the whole line and forcing other teams to have to resort to throwing. Especially in western NY where it can be snowing, windy, etc.

I'll just never understand why we don't do that instead...

[ICE74129]

Why can't we adapt the Tampa-2 and change our Dline such that they are all run stoppers. If we have a fast, athletic secondary...run stoppers at the Line would seem ideal. You can't run, you are forced to pass, and our athletic, fast secondary can handle you (maybe even with some speedy LBs help).

Seems like it's ideal to have some run stuffers clogging the whole line and forcing other teams to have to resort to throwing. Especially in western NY where it can be snowing, windy, etc.

I'll just never understand why we don't do that instead...

Pro teams get away from football 101 and try to make it harder than it is. Strong fast guys in the 5 position, bulk/ Strength in the 1&3. Strength and size at ILB, speed and athleticism at both OLB's, CB and Safety.

[gr8slayer]

Fletcher too small? In a Cover 2 you want small, fast LB's. What are you talking about?

[PECKERWOOD]

Fletcher too small? In a Cover 2 you want small, fast LB's. What are you talking about?

gr8slayer, I just laugh at the people that say Fletcher doesn't fit the tampa 2. Fletch is practically the prototype for the tampa 2.

[eyedog]

That's the whole point, the Tampa-2 sucks ass in case you haven't noticed this year. big deal if Fletcher fits this scheme, the scheme sucks.

[Ingtar33]

the trick is the tampa 2 needs a big tall fast FS... a lot of our defensive pass breakdowns are due to our FS playing out of possition being a step behind.

You need faster OLBs then we have... (though spikes pre-injury was probably fast enough), or the 15-20 yard out, WR post, and WR slants will eat you alive (as they have), and interestingly i think fletch is too slow these days, because he's been eaten alive by the TE skinny post...

Overall, we need the DTs... faster backers... and a new FS to make it work...

Tampa 2 worked because they had Brooks, two playmaking CBs, Lynch, a tall fast FS, and a d-line that could get serious pressure with just 4 rushers.

[gr8slayer]

gr8slayer, I just laugh at the people that say Fletcher doesn't fit the tampa 2. Fletch is practically the prototype for the tampa 2.
He is just a Derrick Brooks with fifteen more pounds on him.

[Ingtar33]

fletch is ideal for it.. .3 years ago... he's a step or two slower this year.

And Brooks is an OLB not a MLB

[gr8slayer]

fletch is ideal for it.. .3 years ago... he's a step or two slower this year.

And Brooks is an OLB not a MLB
MLB and OLB are practically the same position in the Cover 2. The C2 is all about SPEED SPEED SPEED in every area.

[Ingtar33]

... the OLBs need more speed then the MLB in the cover two... the MLB needs to be able to race down field with TEs... the OLBs need to get to the passing lanes for hte 20 yard out faster then the WR.

[gr8slayer]

... the OLBs need more speed then the MLB in the cover two... the MLB needs to be able to race down field with TEs... the OLBs need to get to the passing lanes fo rhte 20 yard out faster then the WR.
I don't see it that way. In my 14 years of playing football I have been stuck in the damn C2 and we have always had our best and fasted athlete in the middle. Varying philosophies? Who knows, but that's how I coach my little league guys as well. To each his own I suppose.

[Ingtar33]

the MLB... it's nice to have an athletic guy there... but generally, unless you have good size in the middle of your line, you need a MLB wiht good size and the ability to shed blockers while moving laterally.. he needs to be a player in the Run d... now if you can get a guy who's as fast as your olbs... that's a good thing... but generally you settle for a MLB who can run with the TE...

Fletch can't do that any more.

[gr8slayer]

the MLB... it's nice to have an athletic guy there... but generally, unless you have good size in the middle of your line, you need a MLB wiht good size and the ability to shed blockers while moving laterally.. he needs to be a player in the Run d... now if you can get a guy who's as fast as your olbs... that's a good thing... but generally you settle for a MLB who can run with the TE...

Fletch can't do that any more.The C2 is mostly zone coverage with an occasional zone blitz. Your MLB needs to be fast enough to break on a ball in zone coverage. With your logic Spikes or Haggan should be our LB because they do not have the speed Fletcher has and they are larger.

[jamze132]

I would think that having big DTs would be able to stop the run.

[YardRat]

Just plugging a fat-ass into the defensive line isn't going to help this D at all, IMO, unless he's also cat-quick. Speed is the most important factor, size is a bonus, especially in the 'X' positions Ice is referring to.

I agree we're set at safety, and the more the rookies learn, the quicker they're able to play by instinct, the better they'll be. Fletcher is replaceable as far as I'm concerned...but only if we can get someone who is slightly taller, a step or two quicker, and smart enough (or instinctive enough) to pick up the nuances of the MLB required by the T2 defense.

[eyedog]

I have an idea. Why don't we scrap this Tampa-2 {the defense that can't stop any running game} and start over in the next draft taking bigger d-tackles and linebackers. The secondary is fine if they re-sign clements.

[mysticsoto]

I have an idea. Why don't we scrap this Tampa-2 {the defense that can't stop any running game} and start over in the next draft taking bigger d-tackles and linebackers. The secondary is fine if they re-sign clements.

The problem is, big DTs who also have speed don't grow on trees. Alan Branch is probably the only one in this coming draft that might have that combination. I tend to see him as a future possible Sam Adams. That being the case, he is going to be in high demand and may even be gone before our pick comes up - depending on where our record ends up.

In either case, I think we should try to address most of our holes in FA 1st since we have so much money available and then if he happens to fall on our lap at the draft, great. If he's already taken, then we choose Best Player Available and move on.

[eyedog]

It won't matter if Branch falls to them or not because he "doesn't fit their system", as ****ty as it is. So they won't take him anyways.

[Ingtar33]

The C2 is mostly zone coverage with an occasional zone blitz. Your MLB needs to be fast enough to break on a ball in zone coverage. With your logic Spikes or Haggan should be our LB because they do not have the speed Fletcher has and they are larger.


And when the TE runs through Fletch's zone (not just this week), he can't keep up.

Spikes has lost a step, and Haggan... if he was able to play he'd be playing. From what i've see of him, he looks a step slow reacting. (besides, Spikes pre-injury is a perfect Brooks clone in the C2, purhaps in a year or two he'll regain that step. but don't count on it. That injury is mostly a career killer)

And while Ko Simpson has been doing "fair" at FS this year, and purhaps will get better... he's been the biggest weakness in our D-backfield.

[DraftBoy]

This thread is talking about a whole defensive system, but only one part of it. Our pass D is good, and our run D does lack but its not the system its the lack of skill players.

[DraftBoy]

I also love how you have people like Ice, who want to trash this system after 12 games, yet give Losman excuse after excuse until he eventually came around. Can we give the system atleast a year if not 2 before we jump to irrational decisions.

[gr8slayer]

And when the TE runs through Fletch's zone (not just this week), he can't keep up.

Spikes has lost a step, and Haggan... if he was able to play he'd be playing. From what i've see of him, he looks a step slow reacting. (besides, Spikes pre-injury is a perfect Brooks clone in the C2, purhaps in a year or two he'll regain that step. but don't count on it. That injury is mostly a career killer)

And while Ko Simpson has been doing "fair" at FS this year, and purhaps will get better... he's been the biggest weakness in our D-backfield.
I am honestly not overly impressed with either Simpson or Whitner so far. That's not to say that they wont get better, they are after all rookies but so far I think they are both just fair.

[gr8slayer]

I also love how you have people like Ice, who want to trash this system after 12 games, yet give Losman excuse after excuse until he eventually came around. Can we give the system atleast a year if not 2 before we jump to irrational decisions.
Cant argue that point.

[ParanoidAndroid]

It took Dungy himself a few seasons to really get this system running on all cylinders.

[gr8slayer]

I dont think we need to can the C2, we just need to move some people around and add a couple of different players that are better suited.