Does it "really" matter if it didn't happen in your lifetime?

[Mr. Cynical]

Listening to fish fans talk about a SB victory from 32 years ago has me thinking. If the Bills had won it before I was born (or to be honest, before I was able to understand what football was), would it really matter to me that they won?

Sure, I'd rather have a win than not no matter how long ago it was. However, I have to say in all honesty (whether or not the others believe me is irrelevant) that no, it doesn't mean that much *to me*. Why? Because I wasn't a part of it. Plain and simple. The only thing it really gives me is the ability to lay smack (albeit a lame a 32 year old smack). But for me it would only really mean something if I was able to take part in its glory. Otherwise its just part of history (albeit an important part, it is still history and really has nothing to do with the current team...unless of course you watched it happen, and then it becomes a part of you)

JM2c....

[LtFinFan66]

I was alive and kicking so I am good. and yes it matters because we have won a couple. when doesn't matter IMO. Once you guys win one, then you will likely never hear about ours again till we win another. pretty simple IMO

[Mr. Cynical]

I was alive and kicking so I am good. and yes it matters because we have won a couple. when doesn't matter IMO. Once you guys win one, then you will likely never hear about ours again till we win another. pretty simple IMO

Expected response from a fin fan.....but just to humor....how old are you? I assume you were born in '66 from your handle?

[Samphin1]

Sure it matters. Red Sox fans who are 20 years old complained about the dread curse that haunted them for 80+ years. Same for Cubs fans who weren't around when it started...and White Sox Nation as well.

Us Laker fans spout off about Wilt Chmberlain and Jerry West, meanwhile most of us grew up with Jabbar, Magic, Shaq and Kobe. The tradition and history of the franchise, in part makes up why you are a fan. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, yet every single one of my teams that I root for is from Southern California or Florida. Why? Because I was drawn to them, in some part do to their history of success and sense of history and tradition that surrounds them.

Much like us Miami fans hang our hats on the undefeated season over 30 years ago, the history of the team is a sense of pride (and a great bargaining chip on rival message boards :lol: )

[Mr. Cynical]

Interesting again how only fish fans are responding. :scratch:

[THATHURMANATOR]

Listening to fish fans talk about a SB victory from 32 years ago has me thinking. If the Bills had won it before I was born (or to be honest, before I was able to understand what football was), would it really matter to me that they won?

Sure, I'd rather have a win than not no matter how long ago it was. However, I have to say in all honesty (whether or not the others believe me is irrelevant) that no, it doesn't mean that much *to me*. Why? Because I wasn't a part of it. Plain and simple. The only thing it really gives me is the ability to lay smack (albeit a lame a 32 year old smack). But for me it would only really mean something if I was able to take part in its glory. Otherwise its just part of history (albeit an important part, it is still history and really has nothing to do with the current team...unless of course you watched it happen, and then it becomes a part of you)

JM2c....
Dude that is my main problem with fin fans. They act like they have a golden champion team. They haven't even been to the bowl in over 20 years.

[RedEyE]

It definitly matters. Going to the Super Bowl is one thing, winning it is something else. The only reason anyone even remembers Buffalo having gone to the Super Bowl is because they did something no one else has. They went 4 years in a row.

The problem is they came away empty handed each time.

Now take Tampa Bay for instance. The Bucs have been a crappy franchise since having made their first blooper reel a couple of decades ago. BUT, the Bucs have one the big one. That automatically pulls them out of any contention for being a bad franchise.

Buffalo gets repeatedly chastised for losing and alomst 0 credit for appearing. Had they won just one of the 4 big games...just one, they would still be considered one of the best franchise in NFL history. Instead, people prefer to laugh then recognize.

[RedEyE]

Look at the Jets. The Jets haven't been to the Super Bowl since 1969. That's Super Bowl III for the mathmatically impaired. To this day Joe Namath still gets an amazing amount of respect and admiration. Do you think that anyone would have remembered Joe Namath had they lost to Baltimore that year never having appeared any year after? I think not.

Unitas was on the losing end of that game but got his comeuppins just 2 years later.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

Win ONE. You have it for ever. Lose one and nobody ever remembers you were there.
Loose 4 and you are labled a looser forever.

Win One, and the 4 go away.

[RedEyE]

What about a QB named Stan Humphries and a running back by the name of Natrone Means? Anyone remember these guys?

That's because in Super Bowl XXIX Natorne and Stan lost to the mighty 49ers by a laaaarge margin. Never to return or do anything significant again. They simply melded with history along with the respect of the Chargers post season win reputation.

[Samphin1]

Interesting again how only fish fans are responding. :scratch:


Well, not to be a jerk, but the Bills have no championships or any basis on which to comment on this subject. Miami does. As a Miami fan who was born after their last championship, I figured this question was a good one for me to answer.

[Mr. Cynical]

Well, not to be a jerk, but the Bills have no championships or any basis on which to comment on this subject. Miami does. As a Miami fan who was born after their last championship, I figured this question was a good one for me to answer.

No worries. You're not a jerk...you're a fish fan. Nothing more need be said. :D

As for your comments, they are totally biased. Of course we have a basis on which to comment. We haven't won a SB but we HAVE won 2 league championships. AT THE TIME, those were "super bowls"....yet, it was so long ago that to me they are largely irrelevant.

However, to fans of teams who have not had any major success in the last 2 decades or longer (not just you but others as well), time becomes a non factor. Why? Because you (again not you, but all fans) want to cling to something they can be proud of. I catch myself citing the Glory Days of the Bills and that was only 12 years ago, not 32. But at least I was a part of that success (whether you want to recognize their dominance is up to you), which is why I asked this question.

[jmb1099]

the only reason to continually shine a light on your past in the sports world is because your present situation isn't worth a spit...imho

[The_Philster]

Well, not to be a jerk, but the Bills have no championships or any basis on which to comment on this subject. In the words of Lex Luthor...WRONG!

[Historian]

We were winning Championships when you guys were pollywogs.

[!Papacrunk!]

It was before my I was born, I don't bring it up on every other thing I post, so I regard it as a part of history as opposed to current events. On the same token, I don't think that just because it was before my time, it should be completely erased as if it didn't exist, as some rival fans try to make happen. I'm very proud of our history, achievements, and history, but I don't force it down people's throats, but the history still exists.

[jmb1099]

It was before my I was born, I don't bring it up on every other thing I post, so I regard it as a part of history as opposed to current events. On the same token, I don't think that just because it was before my time, it should be completely erased as if it didn't exist, as some rival fans try to make happen. I'm very proud of our history, achievements, and history, but I don't force it down people's throats, but the history still exists.
I agree it shouldn't be erased, it is a part of history and important to the tradition of the franchise. However, no matter how wonderful the past may have been for any sports franchise, it doesn't really have any bearing, especially in terms of "smack" as far as the current condition of the team is concerned. I love how this type of discussion progresses
"We have the potential to finish better this year than last"
"Yeah will we had an undefeated season 100 years ago so we obviously rock"

The other side of this for me personaly is that even though Buffalo did win a couple championships very early on, the most meaningful era in Bills history for me is the Jim Kelly Era. Not because it has any implications s far as "smack" is concerned, but because I was a part of that. Now if by the grace of God (and it may take just that) we ever win a Superbowl, that will move to the top of my list as most memorable, but the Kelly era, even though we didn't come away with a SB, was an awesome time to be a Bills fan.
Wow, good thread Cynical!

[Samphin1]

No worries. You're not a jerk...you're a fish fan. Nothing more need be said. :D

As for your comments, they are totally biased. Of course we have a basis on which to comment. We haven't won a SB but we HAVE won 2 league championships. AT THE TIME, those were "super bowls"....yet, it was so long ago that to me they are largely irrelevant.

However, to fans of teams who have not had any major success in the last 2 decades or longer (not just you but others as well), time becomes a non factor. Why? Because you (again not you, but all fans) want to cling to something they can be proud of. I catch myself citing the Glory Days of the Bills and that was only 12 years ago, not 32. But at least I was a part of that success (whether you want to recognize their dominance is up to you), which is why I asked this question.

See, I disagree. the AFL is an extinct league, thus, its championships, while they existed, aren't nearly as impressive of a history as the current Super Bowl system. Sorry it just isn't. People look back to Super Bowl one and count it, they don't look back in the 1920's and brag about the Bears running all over everyone. Why? Because it isn't part of the current makeup of the league and quite frankly, shouldn't be.

So, for all intents and purposes, Buffalo is a championshipl-ess franchise.

[jmb1099]

See, I disagree. the AFL is an extinct league, thus, its championships, while they existed, aren't nearly as impressive of a history as the current Super Bowl system. Sorry it just isn't. People look back to Super Bowl one and count it, they don't look back in the 1920's and brag about the Bears running all over everyone. Why? Because it isn't part of the current makeup of the league and quite frankly, shouldn't be.

So, for all intents and purposes, Buffalo is a championshipl-ess franchise.
Wonder why you might say that? Hmmm a mystery.

[dplus47]

I agree it shouldn't be erased, it is a part of history and important to the tradition of the franchise. However, no matter how wonderful the past may have been for any sports franchise, it doesn't really have any bearing, especially in terms of "smack" as far as the current condition of the team is concerned. I love how this type of discussion progresses
"We have the potential to finish better this year than last"
"Yeah will we had an undefeated season 100 years ago so we obviously rock"

The other side of this for me personaly is that even though Buffalo did win a couple championships very early on, the most meaningful era in Bills history for me is the Jim Kelly Era. Not because it has any implications s far as "smack" is concerned, but because I was a part of that. Now if by the grace of God (and it may take just that) we ever win a Superbowl, that will move to the top of my list as most memorable, but the Kelly era, even though we didn't come away with a SB, was an awesome time to be a Bills fan.
Wow, good thread Cynical!

good post, and i agree with you: if i were a bills fan, i'd be proud of the jim kelly era. there's no reason not to be. fans should know about the histories of their teams; it's part of what ties a team to its fanbase and vice-versa. i'm not a fan of talking smack about bygone days, however, but i'm also not one to talk much smack about the present. each week brings a new game and a new opportunity to eat crow, and the past doesn't help anybody win games.

as for the main post, a lot of things that didn't happen in my lifetime matter to me, from the drafting of the constitution to my old man putting the right record on so he and my mother could get it on... just sayin'. i don't wanna be fixated on the past, but it's good that certain things happened...

[Gunzlingr]

See, I disagree. the AFL is an extinct league, thus, its championships, while they existed, aren't nearly as impressive of a history as the current Super Bowl system. Sorry it just isn't. People look back to Super Bowl one and count it, they don't look back in the 1920's and brag about the Bears running all over everyone. .

No, but they do go on about Green Bay having the most NFL Championships, and they have only won 2 superbowls.

[Historian]

No, but they do go on about Green Bay having the most NFL Championships, and they have only won 2 superbowls.

Three, but who's counting?

See, those championships back then actually meant something....they were actually about football.

The Super Bowls are nothing more than a pagent to sell crap.

[Bling]

Does anyone actually think Buffalo is a top tier franchise with a history of winning?

[Gunzlingr]

Three, but who's counting?

See, those championships back then actually meant something....they were actually about football.

The Super Bowls are nothing more than a pagent to sell crap.

This is why you are the Historian! Thanks for the heads up.

[Gunzlingr]

Does anyone actually think Buffalo is a top tier franchise with a history of winning?

No, but neither are the Phelons.

[PECKERWOOD]

Does anyone actually think Buffalo is a top tier franchise with a history of winning?

We've had our good years, but we've also had our rough times.. There are certainly teams that are worst than Buffalo, that's for sure.

Trivia question: Which NFL franchise has the most wins in NFL history?

[Gunzlingr]

We've had our good years, but we've also had our rough times.. There are certainly teams that are worst than Buffalo, that's for sure.

Trivia question: Which NFL franchise has the most wins in NFL history?

Bears?

[PECKERWOOD]

Bears?

:idunno: Hoping somebody else would know!

[Mr. Cynical]

See, I disagree. the AFL is an extinct league, thus, its championships, while they existed, aren't nearly as impressive of a history as the current Super Bowl system. Sorry it just isn't. People look back to Super Bowl one and count it, they don't look back in the 1920's and brag about the Bears running all over everyone. Why? Because it isn't part of the current makeup of the league and quite frankly, shouldn't be.

So, for all intents and purposes, Buffalo is a championshipl-ess franchise.

SBs I-IV were all before the NFL merger and hence not part of the "current SB system". So using your logic, the Pack's, Jets' and Chiefs' victories aren't very impressive. Yet isn't it funny how the Ice Bowl is the most shown SB. ;)

Regardless....to your second point...the Fish won in '72-'73. Today's league is radically different even compared to 15 years ago, let alone 32. Players are bigger, faster, stronger....technology is all over the place....free agency....more complex....more ubiquitous media pressures....more demanding fans/shorter patience....exponentially more money involved....etc, etc.

So go ahead a pound your chest about your "Golden Age"...but it is exactly that...a Golden Age and has nothing to do with the current era of football. Be proud of your team's history - sure. I would be too. But I wouldn't rely on it as my source of enjoyment for one simple reason....I wasn't there to be a part of it so it's purely an historical event like something you read in history class. JMO.

[jmb1099]

good post, and i agree with you: if i were a bills fan, i'd be proud of the jim kelly era. there's no reason not to be. fans should know about the histories of their teams; it's part of what ties a team to its fanbase and vice-versa. i'm not a fan of talking smack about bygone days, however, but i'm also not one to talk much smack about the present. each week brings a new game and a new opportunity to eat crow, and the past doesn't help anybody win games.

as for the main post, a lot of things that didn't happen in my lifetime matter to me, from the drafting of the constitution to my old man putting the right record on so he and my mother could get it on... just sayin'. i don't wanna be fixated on the past, but it's good that certain things happened...
Good post.
Yup there are certain things that have happened in the past that are meaningful (Jesus comes to mind), and as far as the sports world is concerned there are certain things that happened in my lifetime that I enjoy, but past glory in sports, while making great trivia questions, is just the past. If you don't perform well in the present the glory days of the past become a distant memory and nothing more. Perform well perpetually and you become a dynasty. Perform well inconsistently and you become a footnote.

[Samphin1]

SBs I-IV were all before the NFL merger and hence not part of the "current SB system". So using your logic, the Pack's, Jets' and Chiefs' victories aren't very impressive. Yet isn't it funny how the Ice Bowl is the most shown SB. ;)

Regardless....to your second point...the Fish won in '72-'73. Today's league is radically different even compared to 15 years ago, let alone 32. Players are bigger, faster, stronger....technology is all over the place....free agency....more complex....more ubiquitous media pressures....more demanding fans/shorter patience....exponentially more money involved....etc, etc.

So go ahead a pound your chest about your "Golden Age"...but it is exactly that...a Golden Age and has nothing to do with the current era of football. Be proud of your team's history - sure. I would be too. But I wouldn't rely on it as my source of enjoyment for one simple reason....I wasn't there to be a part of it so it's purely an historical event like something you read in history class. JMO.


Yes, but the NFL is still around. Therefore, NFL records and championships are valid, where as AFL ones, aren't really. I mean, no one really talks about the ABA championships. Why? Because the NBA engulfed them.

As for your point about History class, that further prooves my point. As an American, are you telling me you have never pointed to our involvment in WWII with a sense of pride and a reason you are proud to be an AMerican (essentially a "fan" of America)? Hearing about the Gettysburg Address and Abe Lincoln has never been brought up when talking about moments in American History? I doubt you were alive for those two events (or many many others), but yet, still talk about them with a sense of pride.

Same thing applies for sports, but on a much smaller level, of course.

[Mr. Cynical]

As for your point about History class, that further prooves my point. As an American, are you telling me you have never pointed to our involvment in WWII with a sense of pride and a reason you are proud to be an AMerican (essentially a "fan" of America)? Hearing about the Gettysburg Address and Abe Lincoln has never been brought up when talking about moments in American History? I doubt you were alive for those two events (or many many others), but yet, still talk about them with a sense of pride.

Same thing applies for sports, but on a much smaller level, of course.

Actually, no, it doesn't. The Iraq War holds far more personal significance to me than the Civil War because I am a part of it. This was my point all along - it matters "more" when you are a part of the event. It has nothing to do with being proud of your history.

[Mr. Cynical]

And yes, sports is on a infinitely smaller level than real life changing history so we should probably drop that analogy at this point....

[Samphin1]

Actually, no, it doesn't. The Iraq War holds far more personal significance to me than the Civil War because I am a part of it. This was my point all along - it matters "more" when you are a part of the event. It has nothing to do with being proud of your history.


Well, I won't disagree with you about it mattering more if you are alive to experience it, but your inital post doesn't state that. Your post was asking if it mattered at all. I stand by the fact that it does. It isn't the only reason for becoming a fan of the team, but it strengthens your bond with one, absolutely it does.

Interesting debate though. Good topic! :dance:

[Mr. Cynical]

Well, I won't disagree with you about it mattering more if you are alive to experience it, but your inital post doesn't state that. Your post was asking if it mattered at all. I stand by the fact that it does. It isn't the only reason for becoming a fan of the team, but it strengthens your bond with one, absolutely it does.

Interesting debate though. Good topic! :dance:

Fair enough. I should've broken the post down into two parts:

1. How much does a victory really mean to you if you weren't around to experience it? (beyond giving one the ability to lay smack, that is)

2. How "valuable" is a multi-decade old victory in terms of the present day when discussing a sports team? (beyond giving one the ability to lay smack, that is)

My answers...

1. Not much, other than to have some ancillary pride in my team's history. Living in a past that I had no part in is not very satisfying to me.

2. Not very, given the team and era are completely, totally different. However, I will temper that comment by saying that a team's tradition is important to the identity of a team. But let's face it - the Jets have sucked for ages (they won 3 playoff games in the 30 years following SB III) and even they don't pound their chest with SB III very often anymore. Age old victories ring hollow after awhile unless they are put in the context of a "tradition" conversation. But when used in the present day as a salve for having a crappy team just seems empty IMO.