What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

[raphael120]

After all of the griping, the complaining, the clamoring dissapointment with the team, with Willis, attendance, etc... what will you think of Ralph if he doesn't put forth effort to get what we need to make this team a contender this coming FA period? What if he doesn't do HIS part to make this team better? I think if we have another mediocre FA, it's time for the fans to tell him to shut up and it's his own damn cheap ass fault that we're no good and that it's a sign from him that he's given up on Buffalo as the site for the team known for now, as the Bills.

Look at Indy. Theyre defense was horrid against the run, and what did they do, they threw out the money to McFarland, who has actually started to come around for them. Us? We signed Triplett, and Hargrove, which is like putting duct tape on a leak in a submarine.

Discuss.

[Statman]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

Did we get our money's worth from the dollars and cap bucks that we did spend last season?

The problem is on both ends. Who cares if we sign someone else to a $40 million dollar contract if they don't play up to it? Would you be glad that we opened up our wallet for that?

Tripplett got nearly a $20 million contract. Was he worth it?

Price got a $10+ million contract. Was he worth it?

Fowler got a three year $7.2 million contract. Was he worth it?

Royal got a $10 million contract and became the Bills highest paid TE in history. Did he play like it? Was he worth it?

It's not always how much, it's what you do with what you do spend.

Look at the Patriots. They hardly ever break the bank on free agents.

If you spend X dollars but get X-Y value for it, you're not doing well in free agency no matter what level you spend to.

"More expensive" does not always equate to "better."

[raphael120]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

Did we get our money's worth from the dollars and cap bucks that we did spend last season?

The problem is on both ends. Who cares if we sign someone else to a $40 million dollar contract if they don't play up to it? Would you be glad that we opened up our wallet for that?

Tripplett got nearly a $20 million contract. Was he worth it?

Price got a $10+ million contract. Was he worth it?

Fowler got a three year $7.2 million contract. Was he worth it?

Royal got a $10 million contract and became the Bills highest paid TE in history. Did he play like it? Was he worth it?

It's not always how much, it's what you do with what you do spend.

Look at the Patriots. They hardly ever break the bank on free agents.

If you spend X dollars but get X-Y value for it, you're not doing well in free agency no matter what level you spend to.

"More expensive" does not always equate to "better."

None of those players mentioned were worth their contracts. What I am saying is save money on those "oh well, maybe..." players, and spend money like we did when we brought in Spikes, Sam Adams, etc. There's something to spending money on proven vets...you just have to be smart about where you put the money. If you tell me that the Culpepper move was good, even before the failure of the Miami season, youre on crack.

What I'm saying, and what most Bills fans are so dillusional about because theyre not used to seeing it lately, is spending money on those players (mind you, STARTERS, not backups, not people off the street) we need, and not dicking around with project players and hoping something comes out of it.

I love how you can defend to the death these players and these contracts when it's so OBVIOUS that our FA class has little to no impact besides Andre Davis making plays on special teams, and Kiwaukee Thomas being an awesome cover corner. Other than that, there is absolutely no way you can justify throwing that big money at Robert "Right Out of Bounds" Royal, and Larry "Where's Waldo?" Triplett. Know what kind of money we threw at Craig Nall to ride the pine? We paid backups starter money, plain and simple. I want to pay STARTERS starter money.

Now stop me where this stops making sense to you.

"More expensive" does not always equate to "better."

and "second/third string" doesnt always mean "should start in buffalo"

And the Patriots agruement is not the rule, but the exception to the rule. Look at how much money their "best coaches in the league" are making, the best scouts, etc. Not a valid agruement.

[ddaryl]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

I think most of those players were worth the money, considering what plaers get paid these days. It was the team as a whole that limited much of the ROI for the season. New coaches, new system, etc...

You have to build a solid core and solid backups for the what if situations before you can add the star power IMO.

Now that the team is gelling and the core seems to be in place we can start adding the more expensive impact players.

I expect marv and Ralph to add some higher profile players this offseason, but it might not be that easy considering most of the league in geenral will have significant salary cap space to woo the talent.

[Statman]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

None of those players mentioned were worth their contracts. What I am saying is save money on those "oh well, maybe..." players, and spend money like we did when we brought in Spikes, Sam Adams, etc. There's something to spending money on proven vets...you just have to be smart about where you put the money. If you tell me that the Culpepper move was good, even before the failure of the Miami season, youre on crack.

What I'm saying, and what most Bills fans are so dillusional about because theyre not used to seeing it lately, is spending money on those players (mind you, STARTERS, not backups, not people off the street) we need, and not dicking around with project players and hoping something comes out of it.

I love how you can defend to the death these players and these contracts when it's so OBVIOUS that our FA class has little to no impact besides Andre Davis making plays on special teams, and Kiwaukee Thomas being an awesome cover corner. Other than that, there is absolutely no way you can justify throwing that big money at Robert "Right Out of Bounds" Royal, and Larry "Where's Waldo?" Triplett. Know what kind of money we threw at Craig Nall to ride the pine? We paid backups starter money, plain and simple. I want to pay STARTERS starter money.

Now stop me where this stops making sense to you.



and "second/third string" doesnt always mean "should start in buffalo"

And the Patriots agruement is not the rule, but the exception to the rule. Look at how much money their "best coaches in the league" are making, the best scouts, etc. Not a valid agruement.

I think that we're saying exactly the same thing here just coming at it from different angles in the cause-effect relationship.

I'm saying that the reason why it is as you say is because the problem has nothing to do with money.

If the decisions that we make cannot get guys in here for whatever money that we do spend, then why does it matter whether that contract is for $100M or $10M? It doesn't.

We need to start getting value for the bucks (cap or real) that we do spend. So far there's no indication that we have done that. One of our best performing free agents from last season was Kiwaukee Thomas who was signed to a one-year deal at veteran minimum. He's not a free agent again, but what does it say when your best value signing was a one-year signing at veteran minimum.

Put one more way, suppose I told you now that the Bills, once free agency started, had already arranged to sign a player to a $50M five-year deal.

Would that impress you, or worry you given the current administration's track record? I'd be a little leery and my initial reaction would be that we just broke the bank on a player that won't be worth the cap money spent.

It also says nothing about whether or not that player would have addressed one of our top needs. Suppose it was Ed Reed? You, or someone, might argue that Reed's a great player and worth the bucks. But would it mean the team getting the most, from a team perspective, not an individual player one, in terms of improving?

I would argue no, because we have Whitner now and he's shown some promise and that the same money could have been much better spent on a lineman one one side or the other or maybe on a MLB.

It's not just how much, but how, what position, whether it fills the single greatest need that will push this team forward, how the player plays, etc. that when added all up says whether it was a good signing.

[Charlieguide]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

That's a pretty dark picture you guys painted, but let's look closer.

First, the numbers Statman threw out are total-contract numbers, which of course makes them sound big. Most contracts (see Roscoe Parrish, TKO) are backloaded to encourage extending or cutting at the end. Price and Royal will each make around $2M this year, hardly overspending. And of course Royal is the highest paid TE in team history. Name one above-average TE we've had since McKeller and Metzelaars; pay has gone up a lot since then.

I agree with Statman that breaking the bank isn't the way to go. Marv has a history of bringing in solid talent and building a culture to strengthen the concept of team. That's what it takes to win in this league, now. I say let's see what happens, and give Marv more than a year to build something.


Let's also remember that there might be money under the cap, but does that mean there's money in the bank? Ralph isn't cheap. This is not a high-revenue team like the Cowpies. You can't spend what you don't have, and if we as fans don't support the team, they don't have the cash to spend. If I lived closer, I'd own season tickets, or at the very least be at every game. (actually, I know people in Columbus that do just that.) First and foremost, we should be helping this team sell out games, especially when they're fighting for playoff hopes or at least trying to end the season on a high note.

[feelthepain]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

Doesn't matter how much money you throw around, if players don't want to play in Buffalo, you're screwed. It doesn't help matters that Ralph is notoriously cheap.

[Statman]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

I think most of those players were worth the money, considering what plaers get paid these days. It was the team as a whole that limited much of the ROI for the season. New coaches, new system, etc...

You have to build a solid core and solid backups for the what if situations before you can add the star power IMO.

Now that the team is gelling and the core seems to be in place we can start adding the more expensive impact players.

I expect marv and Ralph to add some higher profile players this offseason, but it might not be that easy considering most of the league in geenral will have significant salary cap space to woo the talent.

When you spend what we did you don't expect backups, you expect the solid core that you said. We didn't get that in those four players. They all got starting money but performed to backup levels.

At some point you will run out of cap space and have nothing but a roster full of backups if that happens every offseason. That's indisputable.

[Statman]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

Doesn't matter how much money you throw around, if players don't want to play in Buffalo, you're screwed. It doesn't help matters that Ralph is notoriously cheap.

It definitely increases the money you have to pay to get the players here.

[JPFBillsFan]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

1st and fore most the NFL is a business.....as a business man it does not make much sense to spend 110 to make 80-90.....If it has to come out his own pocket I don't blame him....
2nd the top players we all want will get bigger offers from big market teams...
we need to find the best unknown players with heart and the fire of a champion

[Charlieguide]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

1st and fore most the NFL is a business.....as a business man it does not make much sense to spend 110 to make 80-90.....If it has to come out his own pocket I don't blame him....
2nd the top players we all want will get bigger offers from big market teams...
we need to find the best unknown players with heart and the fire of a champion

I agree 100%. Well said!

[Statman]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

First, the numbers Statman threw out are total-contract numbers, which of course makes them sound big. Most contracts (see Roscoe Parrish, TKO) are backloaded to encourage extending or cutting at the end. Price and Royal will each make around $2M this year, hardly overspending. And of course Royal is the highest paid TE in team history. Name one above-average TE we've had since McKeller and Metzelaars; pay has gone up a lot since then.

Yes, but the same thing is true for every player, so that all washes out. You also forgot to factor in signing bonuses which do two things; they tell you how long a player will likely be around for, and they let you know what the team really has invested in these players.

Price got far too much, but the point is that the Bills could easily have gotten him for veteran minimum or not much more. They were bidding against themselves. This is a market, not a feel good "let's make everyone happy" routine. It's a business that needs to be treated as such. The Bills did not do that regarding Price. If you think that WRs that put up what he has routinely get paid what he got, for a year, two or all four, then you are out of touch with salaries in the NFL. Price was a veteran minimum caliber WR both prior to and after his signing and his play this season. He's a dime a dozen. Reche Caldewell is better than Price. So is Gaffney. Neither is getting close to what Price got.

As to tight ends, name all the TEs making $1.3M or more in '07 and that got a $2M or greater signing bonus and I guarantee you that Royal will be one of the bottom few.

Tripplett gets paid $1.7M in '07 and isn't worth half of that. He just got a $5.5M SB so if we release him it costs us nearly $3M.

Price gets paid $1.6M this year. You don't honestly think he's worth that, do you?

Royal gets paid the $1.3 mentioned above. He's worth veteran minimum, maybe a few hundred K more max.

Fowler gets paid $1.75M this year and he's not worth that.

A few players go for top bucks, then after the free agent market settles, there are a lot of deals to be had. But you need good personnel talent to find them and we don't have that.

Marv has a history of bringing in solid talent and building a culture to strengthen the concept of team. That's what it takes to win in this league, now. I say let's see what happens, and give Marv more than a year to build something.

He does? Based on what, specifically?

Let's also remember that there might be money under the cap, but does that mean there's money in the bank? Ralph isn't cheap. This is not a high-revenue team like the Cowpies. You can't spend what you don't have, and if we as fans don't support the team, they don't have the cash to spend. If I lived closer, I'd own season tickets, or at the very least be at every game. (actually, I know people in Columbus that do just that.) First and foremost, this team should be selling out games, especially when they're fighting for playoff hopes or at least trying to end the season on a high note.

Ralph shouldn't have fought so hard during the realignment to "must have" the Dolphins in our division. If we had the Steelers and Browns now we'd be much better positioned to sell more tickets and generate more TV revenues from markets right down the road. He blew it there all because he had to have the Dolphins rivalry.

[patmoran2006]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

Before discussing other parts of the equation, lets first directly answer the really good point you brought up.

The Bills rebounded last year and showed life. They head into the off-season full of promise. Lets put it this way, if Wilson DOESNT spend some cash on free agency and bring in players at spots that even the most novice of fan knows we need help at, then all I can say is this football TEAM better win next season. If they win, then great. But if Wilson goes the bargain-basement route AND the Bills do NOT improve on last year, well then sadly you may be seeing the last of the Bills in the city of Buffalo.

Attendance plummeted at the end of the season, despite being in a playoff hunt for a couple of reasons.
1- Sabres are the hot ticket
2- Colder weather (though thats the norm here)
3- There is a lack of a gate attaction on this team- and you can say whatever you want, you know its the truth (its fine when your a winner like the Sabres but otherwise its not good for attendance)
4- People want to see a playoff game after 7 years.

To make matters worse: Whether they are worth the money or not, FLetcher and Clements are two of the faces of the Bills, and we're going to lose them both.

So basically what i'm saying is that attendance is only going to get WORSE unless we put a team together that the FANS BELIEVE will be a winner... If we lose Nate and Fletch and don't go out and sign a couple of well-known players to give these fans some belief-- well then put it this way- this team BETTER storm out of the gates cause a 1-3 start will guarentee thousands of empty seats.

Now to address your point specifically about free agency:
Should the Bills go the route as last year, signing a bunch of "role" players. My answer is: Absolutely not a chance. This is a team with far too many "role players" and not enough "difference makers".

One could argue that Lee Evans on offense and Schobel and Crowell on defense are the only difference makers on this team right now. Losman is on the fringe and Fletch and Nate I say yes to both, but they're both gone.

Of all the free agents we signed last year-- in my opinion the ONLY one who was worth his contract was Melvin Fowler. I think he did well and will continue to get better.

Tripplett was a bad signing-at least based on last year. He was HARDLY an impact player. Peerless Price gave us pretty much what we expected, and that wasnt a whole lot. Robert Royal did NOTHING 12 out of 16 games and he's inability to get his feet down on what should've been an easy catch could've costed us a shot at the playofs. And as a blocker I found him to be overated. Craig Nall-- $1.3 million to a THIRD STRING QB? You've got to be kidding me. Josh Reed at $10 million when he's arguably not even the third WR with Parrish coming on? Its pretty pathetic when you sign a dozen FA's or so and the second most productive one is a special teams guy (Andre Davis)

What aggravates me most about last year's FA lot is that we signed guys, gave them millions and then DRAFTED in the first ROUND at the SAME POSITION.

Why sign Bowen to be a strong safety and then go out and draft Donte Whitner? Why give Tripplett 17 million, and then TRADE UP in the first round to draft McCargo, who plays the SAME STYLE and DT position as Tripplett?

all in all, I say last year's FA class was one of the worst in recent Bills memory.

Again though, this is a team with some good young players now. They won 7 games with a QB who at year's end looked like he's ready to take the next step.

Now as a team, if you want to take the next step you BETTER go out and get more TALENT around this team.

We have PLENTY Of cap room and we're obviously not going to spend it on clements or fletcher.

LB- Lance Briggs or Cato June would be PERFECT for this defense.
TE- Graham or Stevens would be a major weapon for Losman.
CB_ Samuel is a great cover guy and would come cheaper than Nate.
G- We cant run the ball up the middle for ****, so overpay a bit if necessary to get a guard like STeinbach or Dielman.

Now realistically I wouldnt expect Wilson to sign all of these guys.. What im saying is he has the money, cap room and the ABILITY to sign a couple of IMPACT players...

Honestly, I dont expect him too. I think Ralph is done throwing big bucks around in Buffalo. But for the sake of the team, I hope I am wrong.

[Statman]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

An easy way to look at value of players is this way;

The salary cap, due to an adjustment for the new CBA went up dramatically last year to 105M was it. I have read one source that says it will be approximately 109M this year.

OK, so let's say it's 102 for calculating purposes which won't change the facts much. The top 51 players count against it. The cap includes earned SB for that year plus salary, plus other bonues or incentives for the prior year, etc. Mostly SB and annual salary.

That's a per player average of $2M. Obviously Ks, TEs, FBs, some LBs, and backups don't make as much as starters and players in other positions.

So for every high dollar big contract player you then sign, that per player average goes down slightly. It has to if you sign a player to a five year deal with a $10M signing bonus and a $60M contract with a first year salary of $1M.

As the salary escalates teams must then decide whether they are getting more from players than it would otherwise benefit them to release them. Let's use Spikes as an example. He's scheduled to make $4.5M this season. If we release him we'd save ~ $1.5M since the unearned portion of his original $9M SB would come due. The question becomes one of can we find another LB to give us what Spikes gave us?

The question is somewhat odd on this one because we also have to factor in whether or not we believe Spikes will continue to come back following his injury. Either way, that's how it works. Regardless, suppose he stays without a restructure. His cap hit would necessarily mean that the average just went down a tiny bit. But he would count ~4.5M against the cap. If we have ten players that would count on or about that much, then we would be reduced to 10 x 4.5M or 102 - 45 or 57M for the remaining 41 players for a per player average of about $1.4M. You see how that's already dropped significantly.

We all know that many players count more than $1.4M against the cap so after they have been removed it drops even further until it's in the near veteran minium range.

Tight Ends that get paid as much as Royal usually perform much better. Royal had way too many key drops this year to have been considered anything more than disappointing. Campbell had a better year in New Orleans and I'm sure he would have restructured to stay here both saving us money and giving us more.

Anyway, gotta run.

[Statman]

Re: What Will You Think Of Ralph if He Doesn't Spend the Cash?

patmoran2006,

Tripplett was a bad player in Indy too. Our staff just didn't figure that out before they gave him that ridiculous contract.

I just skimmed your post but will try to get back to it later. Looks accurate for the most part IMO meaning that I agree with you on most of it at a quick glance.