Crowell, Spikes and Ellison

[Sportsuser101]

Our starting 2007 linebackers. All this talk about taking a LBer in the 1st round or even the 2nd round is crazy talk. We have more pressing needs then to worry about something we are strong in. This staff signed Triplett as their big free agent signing last year. They moved up to take McCargo in the 1st. I highly doubt they take a DT again. If Clements indeed does move on then I think CB is our pick. If not and Kelsay isn't resigned then we go DE. If both are resigned then I think we should address our WR need. I would love to grab a guy like Rice, Jarrett, Meachem, Ginn, etc. There are plenty of top WRs that we may not even need to take a WR in the 1st because there might be a good 1 sitting in the 2nd for us. Peters is obviously our starting LT and I don't think its wise to take a RT, especially 1 that we would be reaching for, in the 1st round. Pennington didn't do too bad and we have more pressing needs.

[G. Host]

Whatever happened to building our OL? People have been complaining for years that the OL was subpar and Donahoe neglected the OL. We need a strong OL so any Tom, Dick or JP can play behind it.

[YardRat]

I agree with the LB and DT assessment, but don't think we'll go corner in the draft unless we can't bring anyone in via FA.

[HHURRICANE]

If you think that Crowell, Spikes and Ellison are the answer at LB than we should count on another 7-9 season.

As I stated a year ago this team was and is still void of talent. I also said it was going to take 2 seasons, We have made some strides in the draft but if we are really serious about not adding another year to rebuilding than we had better hit some homeruns in FA.

[jamze132]

This team needs to improve as many positions through FA that it can so we don't have to worry about drafting 4 starters again. Whether Clements is worth $60 mil or not is besides the point, we need a top corner. McGee was exposed last year and if we don;t sign Clement's or someone close to his caliber, it will put even more pressure on our pass rush.

I wonder if Asante Samuel can be had for less than Clements.

[kernowboy]

Our starting 2007 linebackers. All this talk about taking a LBer in the 1st round or even the 2nd round is crazy talk. We have more pressing needs then to worry about something we are strong in. This staff signed Triplett as their big free agent signing last year. They moved up to take McCargo in the 1st. I highly doubt they take a DT again. If Clements indeed does move on then I think CB is our pick. If not and Kelsay isn't resigned then we go DE. If both are resigned then I think we should address our WR need. I would love to grab a guy like Rice, Jarrett, Meachem, Ginn, etc. There are plenty of top WRs that we may not even need to take a WR in the 1st because there might be a good 1 sitting in the 2nd for us. Peters is obviously our starting LT and I don't think its wise to take a RT, especially 1 that we would be reaching for, in the 1st round. Pennington didn't do too bad and we have more pressing needs.

Last season we had Crowell injured with a broken leg. Spikes missed some games with injury. There was even talk of starting Wire at LB which is ridiculous. Even if Spikes comes back we will have zero depth behind these starters and are one injury away from disaster. And are we going to continue to pay TKO $6m for the production we saw? We are marginal here with no depth ... it is a principle need.

At DT, we clearly need a 1-tackle as Williams is too small not to wear down quickly and there have been a number of examples of teams signing DTs in R1 in back to back drafts (Jaguars - Stroud/Henderson, Patriots - Warren/Wilfork) - with small tackles in the Tampa2 we need to rotate players in to keep them fresh.

We drafted Youboty with the idea of him maybe stepping up if Clements left. Which by the way he hasn't yet. It is not Marv's way to bring in a R1 rookie and start them straight off anyway (Thomas Smith, Burris). With Youboty here we'd like look at a FA pick up. Kelsay and Hargrove could be resigned but again with Schobel and Denney signed up we'd not like go here early unless a top player fell.

Having invested close on $20m in Reed and Price over the next 4 years, I would be surprised if Marv and Dick went down the WR route. We are going to pay $2.5m to a No4 WR? We may look at RB and move on Willis but I think Marv will let McGahee run out his contract in the hope he'll try to have a big season and a big pay deal .. drafting his replacement in 08. On the OL I agree that we have ok depth in Merz, Preston and Butler and the principle need is RG where there is a lot of talent in an otherwise poor Free Agency year.

So back to LB and DT. We either pay an absolute shed load on one of the top stars at LB (Briggs, Thomas, June) who are likely to be tagged or go for an aging vet at DT who we may have to replace within 2 years anyway. Due to Marv and Dick's willingness to build in the draft and with a clear need at LB and DT 1-tackle, I think we will either grab Okoye in R1 and Siler in R2 or we may trade down and grab Posluzny or Willis in R1 and then someone like Justin Harrell in R2 with an extra pick in R3 where we could pick up a DE like Bazuin. However we could look at trading for Randy Starks if he wasn't too expensive.

From what I have observed, the increase in cap has allowed most teams to resign their talented youngsters who otherwise would have been released due to cap reasons. Therefore we either go for youth or for vets who may have little left in the tank. And considering the total lack of depth we have at LB, even if we retain Spikes, I would be astonished if a high pick did not go on a LB. Marv does have a track record of drafting high in this position.

[Sportsuser101]

You want the Bills to draft a linebacker in the 1st round because we have no depth?

[Goobylal]

If the Bills can fix the DL problem, specifically at DT, Crowell, Ellison, and Spikes will be fine at LB, assuming Spikes can recover fully from his Achilles.

[TigerJ]

Whatever the Bills do in the offseason and the draft needs to be geared toward getting better at running the ball and stopping the run. It may be that the Bills will want to get a sure thing 2nd receiver and replace Clements (though we still have Youboty waiting in the wings, but other than that I see the Bills wanting to strengthen the interior of both lines, looking for a new running back and finding a run stopping pass covering middle linebacker. I like Angelo Crowell and Spikes, and either one might be fine in the middle but that is still something of an experiment, and I'm not going into training camp with my only options at middle linebacker being experiments.

[jpdex12]

Our starting 2007 linebackers. All this talk about taking a LBer in the 1st round or even the 2nd round is crazy talk. We have more pressing needs then to worry about something we are strong in. This staff signed Triplett as their big free agent signing last year. They moved up to take McCargo in the 1st. I highly doubt they take a DT again. If Clements indeed does move on then I think CB is our pick. If not and Kelsay isn't resigned then we go DE. If both are resigned then I think we should address our WR need. I would love to grab a guy like Rice, Jarrett, Meachem, Ginn, etc. There are plenty of top WRs that we may not even need to take a WR in the 1st because there might be a good 1 sitting in the 2nd for us. Peters is obviously our starting LT and I don't think its wise to take a RT, especially 1 that we would be reaching for, in the 1st round. Pennington didn't do too bad and we have more pressing needs.

These are the stats from Nick Harper's career, a decent corner in a Tampa 2 scheme.
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left width="8%">YEAR</TD><TD align=left width="8%">TEAM</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>TOT</TD><TD>SOLO</TD><TD>AST</TD><TD>PD</TD><TD>SACK</TD><TD>FF</TD><TD>REC</TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>TD</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2001</TD><TD align=left>IND</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>25</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><!--teamId=11--><!--teamId2=11--><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>2002</TD><TD align=left>IND</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>49</TD><TD>45</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><!--teamId=11--><!--teamId2=11--><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2003</TD><TD align=left>IND</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>97</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>121</TD><TD>1</TD></TR><!--teamId=11--><!--teamId2=11--><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=left>IND</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>51</TD><TD>40</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><!--teamId=11--><!--teamId2=11--><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=left>IND</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>66</TD><TD>60</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>41</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><!--teamId=11--><!--teamId2=11--><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=left>IND</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>75</TD><TD>58</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left colSpan=2>Career</TD><TD>83</TD><TD>350</TD><TD>298</TD><TD>52</TD><TD>58</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>209</TD><TD>1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
These are stats from Jason David's career, another of Indy's starting CB's.
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=left>IND</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>25</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>34</TD><TD>1</TD></TR><!--teamId=11--><!--teamId2=11--><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=left>IND</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>41</TD><TD>30</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><!--teamId=11--><!--teamId2=11--><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=left>IND</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>48</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left colSpan=2>Career</TD><TD>40</TD><TD>114</TD><TD>98</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>63</TD><TD>1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
These are stats from Charles Tillman's career, a starting CB for the Bears.
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2003</TD><TD align=left>CHI</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>86</TD><TD>79</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><!--teamId=3--><!--teamId2=3--><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=left>CHI</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><!--teamId=3--><!--teamId2=3--><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=left>CHI</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>96</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>172</TD><TD>1</TD></TR><!--teamId=3--><!--teamId2=3--><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=left>CHI</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>81</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>40</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>32</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left colSpan=2>Career</TD><TD>48</TD><TD>273</TD><TD>239</TD><TD>34</TD><TD>42</TD><TD>2.0</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>231</TD><TD>1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Ricky Manning Jr.'s stats.
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2003</TD><TD align=left>CAR</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>60</TD><TD>52</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>33</TD><TD>1</TD></TR><!--teamId=29--><!--teamId2=29--><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=left>CAR</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><!--teamId=29--><!--teamId2=29--><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=left>CAR</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>42</TD><TD>34</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><!--teamId=3--><!--teamId2=3--><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=left>CHI</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>53</TD><TD>43</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>113</TD><TD>1</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left colSpan=2>Career</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>157</TD><TD>132</TD><TD>25</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>2.0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>166</TD><TD>2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

There are no stand out CB's in this year's draft. Great LB's and defensive lineman make great CB's.

Urlacher
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right ?><TD align=left>SPLIT</TD><TD>TOT</TD><TD>SOLO</TD><TD>AST</TD><TD>SACK</TD><TD>STF</TD><TD>STFY</TD><TD>FF</TD><TD>BK</TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>PD</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD>142</TD><TD>93</TD><TD>49</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>38</TD><TD>12.7</TD><TD>36</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>9</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Briggs
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right ?><TD align=left>SPLIT</TD><TD>TOT</TD><TD>SOLO</TD><TD>AST</TD><TD>SACK</TD><TD>STF</TD><TD>STFY</TD><TD>FF</TD><TD>BK</TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>PD</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD>134</TD><TD>113</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>1.0</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>9.0</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>9</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Brackett-Colts
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right ?><TD align=left>SPLIT</TD><TD>TOT</TD><TD>SOLO</TD><TD>AST</TD><TD>SACK</TD><TD>STF</TD><TD>STFY</TD><TD>FF</TD><TD>BK</TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>PD</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD>122</TD><TD>87</TD><TD>35</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
June-Colts
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=colhead align=right ?><TD align=left>SPLIT</TD><TD>TOT</TD><TD>SOLO</TD><TD>AST</TD><TD>SACK</TD><TD>STF</TD><TD>STFY</TD><TD>FF</TD><TD>BK</TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>LNG</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>PD</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD>142</TD><TD>96</TD><TD>46</TD><TD>1.0</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>4.7</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>4</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

BTW, the players from both teams above are playing next weekend. We can live without a Champ Bailey or Nate Clements type CB in this defensive scheme. Buffalo will go LB or DT in April with the first pick unless Calvin Johnson is there which I doubt.

[kernowboy]

You want the Bills to draft a linebacker in the 1st round because we have no depth?

No ... we are losing Fletcher so there is one spot open.

Because Ellison has done well in relief does not mean he could carry it off for the entire season

Spikes is not playing like a $6m a season linebacker. He is also getting on in age and with type of injury he has had, it will always be susceptible

Last season we lost Spikes with hamstring injuries, Crowell to a season ending broken leg.

Hands up who wants to have to start Coy Wire, Mario Haggan or DiGiorgio?

The lunacy is suggesting we need to go for yet another WR, when we already have 3 capable of starting and where in FA there is more choice than in other positions. Or at RB, where we have one who will have to run hard to get any sort of contract for 2008. Or a CB where we already have taken steps to draft Clements replacement - are we not going to see what we have there?

Football is a physical game, players get injured. Having absolutely nothing in the LB corps is a seriously dangerous option to take especially when two of the LBs mentioned had injuries which caused them to miss a number of games last season.

[Night Train]

Crowell, Spikes and Ellison. Our starting 2007 linebackers

Thanks. I though it was a law firm in Lancaster.



You're probably right. FA is slim pickings, plus we have to make our 1st 4 draft choices count in areas of need.

I'm not sure we'll aquire the quantity of vet talent we are dreaming about, prior to the draft. Shuffling the present roster is probably part of the plan.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Whatever happened to building our OL? People have been complaining for years that the OL was subpar and Donahoe neglected the OL. We need a strong OL so any Tom, Dick or JP can play behind it.

I think the Bills are happy with developing Peters and Pennington as their OTs, but will look at bringing in at least one interior offensive lineman via the draft. Unlike top OTs, good interior offensive linemen can be gotten anywhere from the 2nd Round down. Given that none of the interior offensive linemen at the Senior Bowl was in the same class as Nick Mangold, who went to the Jets early in Round 2 last year, it is likely that there will still be some of the better interior offensive linemen in this draft still on the board when the Bills pick in Round 3 and perhaps even Round 4--with others being around even later.

According to nfldraftcountdown.com the Bills talked with Manuel Ramirez, a massive OG from Texas Tech, who played in a primarily passing offense that utilized wide line splits (meaning he had to block some in space to be successful, but probably isn't quick enough to work on the outside at OT), but is seen as potentially being a real road-grader on the next level. According to the reports that I read, Ramirez had a good week of practice at the Senior Bowl, but, given the way that the North's defensive line dominated the game, I really can't say how good or bad a game he had (Auburn OG Ben Grubbs was the South's Offensive MVP).

Based on this, I would expect the Bills to look to draft an interior offensive lineman somewhere in the middle-to-late rounds even if they bring in someone in free agency. I don't think that they will ignore their needs there, but will use their higher picks to address needs at more "skilled" positions where they really need more play-makers.

[OpIv37]

I read the title of this thread and the first thing I thought was "not good enough". If TKO was the TKO of 2004 we might be able to get by, but not now. That is a sub-par LB corps and it will show on the field.

And as kerno said, we have no depth. Who are our LB's behind those guys? DiGiorgio? Do we still have Josh Stamer? Coy "Tweener" Wire?

As far as the OL goes, I think we've finally reached a stage where we can tweak it instead of rebuilding it. We just need a stronger right guard so we can run to that side more consistently.

[Saratoga Slim]

I read the title of this thread and the first thing I thought was "not good enough". If TKO was the TKO of 2004 we might be able to get by, but not now. That is a sub-par LB corps and it will show on the field.

And as kerno said, we have no depth. Who are our LB's behind those guys? DiGiorgio? Do we still have Josh Stamer? Coy "Tweener" Wire?

As far as the OL goes, I think we've finally reached a stage where we can tweak it instead of rebuilding it. We just need a stronger right guard so we can run to that side more consistently.

Yeah, If Spikes is back close to form, it's got the potential to be a solid LB corps, but as stands now we have absolutely no insurance in case he's not, and little in the way of backup if one of the above gets hurt, if Crowell sucks at MLB, or if Ellison isn't all he's cracked up to be. Thus I really want to see a top FA LB or a 1st or 2nd round draftee brought in. Linebackers are so important to this defensive scheme I just can't feel good about relying on what we have now. You almost can't have too much talent at linebacker. Even if they're not starting, LBs usually make great special teamers.