How much would Dwight Freeney cost?

[Kerr]

Seriously, could the bills afford him if they don't retain clements and fletcher?
Let's face it, the bills defensive line leaves a lot to desired. Consider that the two superbowl teams have average to solid corners, no all pros. The thing they do have is an excellent pass rush. Dwight Freeney-Robert Mathis-O-gun-Alex Brown. Schobel and Kelsay can't compete with that as a tandem. Yeah I get it, if we upgraded the tackle spot the ends might pick up more sacks, etc, but you don't have to settle for an average to solid end when you can get an all pro end like freeney as long as you upgrade the tackle spot. Pick an Ian Scott and Freeney to pair up with Schobel and you've already patched up the D-line. Eventually McCargo and another draft pick will chip in. A lot of us are forgetting that the key elements to the cover 2 are the D-line and linebackers more than the secondary. You can get away with average to solid corners, which is why most of these cover 2 corners usually don't excel that well in any other system other than the cover 2. Teams also don't break the bank for a top corner, when it's not necessary. In the teams case, if clements wants a big payday, then he can go find it somewhere else. Bring in a stopgap corner to fill in until youbouty is ready. You can't honestly want to break the bank on clements when a corner like him is not needed for this scheme. You probably couldn't get both freeney and briggs. Who would you rather have? You have so many options this offseason at linebacker, but very few with the defensive line. Freeney and Schobel? Which one are you going to pick to double team? Pick your poison.

Discuss.

[OpIv37]

could we afford him? Yes, but then we still need to find replacements for Clements and Fletcher.

No matter how you do it, this D is still gonna have some serious holes

[Carlton Bailey]

Here's how it can be done...

Sign Freeney

Crowell to MLB, Spikes and Ellison at OLBs

Draft DT in Round 1, if available.

[BILLSROCK1212]

Here's how it can be done...

Sign Freeney

Crowell to MLB, Spikes and Ellison at OLBs

Draft DT in Round 1, if available.
i wudnt have a problem with that at all

[Mitchy moo]

Here's how it can be done...

Sign Freeney

Crowell to MLB, Spikes and Ellison at OLBs

Draft DT in Round 1, if available.

Yep that looks like it would work but Freeney is going to be real expensive!!

[Mudflap1]

Um, who is going to write a check for the signing bonus money? That's the problem here... we have the cap room to spread over several years, but Ralph is going to have to get the checkbook out and write a $10+ million (probably $15MM, maybe $20MM) signing bonus check, on the spot! Does he have the kinda scratch lying around? Perhaps, but he has to sign other players, draft, and run the rest of the team. Going after $2MM to $8MM signing bonus-type guys seems to be about Ralph's speed. Does anyone have any data on hand about the signing bonuses Ralph has paid over the last 10-15 years?

Jon

[Tatonka]

Yeah.. it would be awesome to have dominant defensive ends like Indy... I mean, we all know how good they are against the run.. 32nd in the league is nothing to scoff at.. and look at these mind boggling pass rushing numbers...

Dwight Freeney - 35 solo tackles, 10 assists, 5.5 sacks

Robert Mathis - 76 solo tackles, 14 assists, 9.5 sacks

those numbers look good.. just out of curiousity.. lets take a look at what we have currently..

BACKUP Ryan Denny - 38 solo tackles, 16 assists, 6 sacks

Chris Kelsay - 41 solo tackles, 20 assists, 5.5 sacks

Aaron Schobel - 35 solos, 18 assists, 14 sacks

that is weird.. it seems that both starters and one back up for the bills put up better numbers than freeney.. and schobel was one sack shy of equaling both freeney and mathis..

come on guys.. freeney cant stop the run and he is not a dominant pass rusher.. i watched him a ton this season.. he was not double teamed every play.. he didnt always have the running back chipping on him.. teams just caught on.. he isnt bull rushing anyone.. and if your tackle can control his speed move, he is done.

people need to realize that what we have at DE is not bad.

[camelcowboy]

freeney with his stupid spin move can go somewhere else. Upgrade D-tackle and line backer, and re-sign kelsay

[Mudflap1]

Let's not pretend that Freeney is a bum either guys... he is really good and is going to cost a lot...

That being said, I think Polian tags him. Tatonka, you're point is right in the fact that our guys we have aren't that bad. While I would take Freeney in a heartbeat over Kelsay, Denney, etc. we have other needs that need to be filled first, such as offensive line, defensive tackle, cornerback, linebacker. I'd rather see the Bills spend the bigger money (as big as they're willing to go) in those areas.

Jon

[BILLSROCK1212]

Yeah.. it would be awesome to have dominant defensive ends like Indy... I mean, we all know how good they are against the run.. 32nd in the league is nothing to scoff at.. and look at these mind boggling pass rushing numbers...

Dwight Freeney - 35 solo tackles, 10 assists, 5.5 sacks

Robert Mathis - 76 solo tackles, 14 assists, 9.5 sacks

those numbers look good.. just out of curiousity.. lets take a look at what we have currently..

BACKUP Ryan Denny - 38 solo tackles, 16 assists, 6 sacks

Chris Kelsay - 41 solo tackles, 20 assists, 5.5 sacks

Aaron Schobel - 35 solos, 18 assists, 14 sacks

that is weird.. it seems that both starters and one back up for the bills put up better numbers than freeney.. and schobel was one sack shy of equaling both freeney and mathis..

come on guys.. freeney cant stop the run and he is not a dominant pass rusher.. i watched him a ton this season.. he was not double teamed every play.. he didnt always have the running back chipping on him.. teams just caught on.. he isnt bull rushing anyone.. and if your tackle can control his speed move, he is done.

people need to realize that what we have at DE is not bad.this was a down year for freeney but after seeing those stats id rather throw all of our money at Adalius Thomas or Lance Briggs or Kawika Michell

[Kerr]

Yeah.. it would be awesome to have dominant defensive ends like Indy... I mean, we all know how good they are against the run.. 32nd in the league is nothing to scoff at.. and look at these mind boggling pass rushing numbers...

Dwight Freeney - 35 solo tackles, 10 assists, 5.5 sacks

Robert Mathis - 76 solo tackles, 14 assists, 9.5 sacks

those numbers look good.. just out of curiousity.. lets take a look at what we have currently..

BACKUP Ryan Denny - 38 solo tackles, 16 assists, 6 sacks

Chris Kelsay - 41 solo tackles, 20 assists, 5.5 sacks

Aaron Schobel - 35 solos, 18 assists, 14 sacks

that is weird.. it seems that both starters and one back up for the bills put up better numbers than freeney.. and schobel was one sack shy of equaling both freeney and mathis..

come on guys.. freeney cant stop the run and he is not a dominant pass rusher.. i watched him a ton this season.. he was not double teamed every play.. he didnt always have the running back chipping on him.. teams just caught on.. he isnt bull rushing anyone.. and if your tackle can control his speed move, he is done.

people need to realize that what we have at DE is not bad.

Freeney only had one off year, which was this year. With the exception of this season, he's had 10+ sack seasons since coming into the league. You're going to hold one lackluster year against him? I don't think freeney is as bad against the run as people make him out to be. When it mattered he and the rest of the colts defense held their opponents run game in check for three straight playoffs games. Speed and technique has made Freeney and the likes of Jason Taylor productive in this league. I see that you posted the statistics, but did not post freeney's forced fumble statistis. He had more than any of our ends and you can't deny he has a knack for creating turnovers all the time.
I think it would be great if we could land freeney, but if not, there's no use dwelling on it.
For the sake of the team's success, I hope kelsay and denney are adequate enough to keep this team further in the playoffs.

[Tatonka]

first of all.. elite defensive ends dont have seasons like this.. period.

and your right kerr.. i didnt post his 4 forced fumbles.. i also didnt post that he had 3 sacks and 3 of those 4 forced fumbles in ONE GAME.. against cincy who was missing their starting LT..

so lets see.. other than his one phenominal game against a back up LT, he had 2.5 sacks in 15 games.. WOW.. amazing.. yeah.. seems like he really has a nack for making those huge plays..

i watched the guy in numerous games this season.. he was a nonfactor.. he got owned.. and he got run over.. he was trying so hard to be a highlight reel, that he ran himself out of plays all day... all season.. he was not solid against the run.. not at any point..

kelsay was actually better than freeney this year.

and denny and his 3 sack game against miami is identical to freeneys except denny was playing against a starter at RT.. and denny is the back up not the starter.

you can say freeney has only had one bad year.. but man it was an awful year.. and this is in light of his pending free agency.. the guy cant even perform with that payday looming?

he will get overpaid because he is a NAME.. but if we were going to spend money, we would be way smarter to invest that in clements and not a DE that cant stop the run as good as what we already have.

[texasphinsfan]

Freeney would cost more than Clements..... and IMO, you guys need Clements more than Freeney.

Not saying Freeney wouldn't be nice.... but a gaping whole at DB is worse than not having a top-5 pass rusher. i mean you guys already have some solid DEs

[Tatonka]

what is so nice about freeney ?

he didnt have a down year.. he got exposed..

[Kerr]

first of all.. elite defensive ends dont have seasons like this.. period.

and your right kerr.. i didnt post his 4 forced fumbles.. i also didnt post that he had 3 sacks and 3 of those 4 forced fumbles in ONE GAME.. against cincy who was missing their starting LT..

so lets see.. other than his one phenominal game against a back up LT, he had 2.5 sacks in 15 games.. WOW.. amazing.. yeah.. seems like he really has a nack for making those huge plays..

i watched the guy in numerous games this season.. he was a nonfactor.. he got owned.. and he got run over.. he was trying so hard to be a highlight reel, that he ran himself out of plays all day... all season.. he was not solid against the run.. not at any point..

kelsay was actually better than freeney this year.

and denny and his 3 sack game against miami is identical to freeneys except denny was playing against a starter at RT.. and denny is the back up not the starter.

you can say freeney has only had one bad year.. but man it was an awful year.. and this is in light of his pending free agency.. the guy cant even perform with that payday looming?

he will get overpaid because he is a NAME.. but if we were going to spend money, we would be way smarter to invest that in clements and not a DE that cant stop the run as good as what we already have.


Jason Taylor only had 2.5 sacks in his third year in which he already established himself as a great pass rusher. In '01he had an off year with 8.5 sacks. That's an off year for him. Yeah, I won't deny freeney had an off year and racked up 3 sacks against the bengals backup, but the fact remains he's played pretty well in the playoffs. One could say that frequent double teaming on him has opened up Mathis to make plays. As poor as his season was stastically, he's played a big part in the colts recent success. Remember Simeon Rice? He's had quite a few off years as well. The point is that after having off years, nobody questioned their ability come to back to their elite form. One off year for Freeney doesn't mean he's not elite.

[Kerr]

Freeney would cost more than Clements..... and IMO, you guys need Clements more than Freeney.

Not saying Freeney wouldn't be nice.... but a gaping whole at DB is worse than not having a top-5 pass rusher. i mean you guys already have some solid DEs


Why do you need Clements? Overpaid corners are not essential in a cover 2 scheme. Not even Ronde Barber made as much money as Nate will make.

[Carlton Bailey]

Freeney only had 5.5 sacks, but he was double and triple teamed. Chris Kelsay certainly wasn't. Freeney's a player.

[Tatonka]

that is a bull**** cop out excuse.. freeney was NOT double and tripple teamed.. i watched several games and in a few of the games they were actually showing how owned he was getting.. they were talking about it all year.. what is wrong with freeney.. they showed him in prime time games.. and it was embarassing when they focussed on him.

why would you double and triple team a guy that has .5 sacks at week 10 in the season??

[BILLSROCK1212]

if we got freeney imagine what Schobel could do

[Tatonka]

sorry, freeney may be good again one day, but i konw what i saw this year.. and it was garbage..

i dont even know why i am even discussing it.. the guy will never ever be a bill. never.

[Kerr]

Quoting from footballguys.com article..

"He's back! OK, maybe not quite back all the way, but Colts DE Dwight Freeney finally had a sack, or at least half of one, and 3-1 tackles Sunday. It's pretty sad when his IDP owners get excited about the perennial All-Pro finally getting on the board, but when you realize that Freeney has had three games this year where he didn't register so much as a single tackle or a sack, it's at least movement in the right direction…
Freeney's half-sack came at an opportune time as it forced a fumble (credit given to LB Gary Brackett) in the third quarter that set up a touchdown three plays later to give the Colts a lead in a game they went on to win…
Some Colts fans are pointing to a slight change in the way holding penalties are called this season as the reason for Freeney's drastic reduction in sacks. Also, Freeney is double-teamed more often than not and even tripled teamed with regularity. Teams are leaving in their tight end more often than normal. Still, to some degree, this is nothing new. But the difference now is that whereby teams were once allowing Freeney one-on-one opportunities 7-8 times a game, they're only allowing that one or two times now…
Freeney is still putting pressure on opposing quarterbacks and still drawing holding penalties but he's not getting the sacks and it's been frustrating to Freeney. Teams are also passing less against the Colts, allowing fewer opportunities for Freeney. Last year, the Colts had an average of about 32 pass attempts per game against them. This year, the number is down to 27, second least in the league…"

Maybe he's watched the games too.

[HHURRICANE]

Briggs is the guy period!!

[patmoran2006]

what is so nice about freeney ?

he didnt have a down year.. he got exposed..

Well Carson Palmer didn't have a down year either, he was "exposed" based on your one-year theory.

You just compared (favorably) Kelsay to Freeney based on tackles and sacks for THIS year.... Are you ****ing even remotely serious?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Yeah Freeney is a great Player IMO.

[djjimkelly]

polian was on a few days ago on sirius saying they will resign him and tag if needed

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I keep hearing these same Fantasy Football arguments about the Bills needing a pass-rushing DE every year it seems. That is by no means even close to being their major need on defense...not even one of the top two or three.

In case you missed it, the Bills have a Pro Bowl DE and one of the top pass-rushers in the league in Aaron Schobel, who dismissed previous concerns about only getting sacks in a few games a season by having sacks in a string of games exceeded only by Bruce Smith.

Moreover, the Bills got excellent production out of their DEs as a whole, with Denney and Kelsay combining for 11.5 sacks and Hargrove adding 2 I believe to go with Schobel's totals. Those are good numbers and they could have been even better if the Bills were able to stop the opposition from running the ball so well and were able to put their opponents in 3rd and long situations more often.

The Bills problem and the solution to their problems on defense is not at DE, but at the 1-gap DT spot and at LB. Kyle Williams did a decent job for a rookie, but they need for him to get bigger and stronger and to hold his ground better against double-teams. And, they need another 1-gap DT who can do the same thing--whether it is John McCargo or someone else. Even if they get that, however, they need a MLB who can evade and shed blockers who will attack the line of scrimmage and still do a good job in coverage.

And, they need at least one, preferably two, OLBs who will make plays and generate turnovers--whether that is Angelo Crowell or Takeo Spikes or Keith Ellison or someone else. And, they need to have their safeties learn from their experiences this year and do a better job in run support, while also improving their coverage skills and generating more turnovers (something that should come with experience).

They also may or may not need a starting CB to replace Nate Clements--Youboty may or may not be the answer, only the coaches really know that at this point.

Every NFL team can use a good pass-rushing DE, but, when you are getting the production that the Bills got from their DEs, you don't spend the resources that you would have to spend to acquire a Dwight Freeney--or even a high first round draft pick--on a DE at the expense of being able to address your more pressing needs at other positions.

[jamze132]

The last thing this defense needs is Freeney. We are better off just resigning Kelsay and let him and Denney do what they did last yea... 11.5 sacks. And to go along with Schobel's 14, we had a pretty good year from our DEs. We need fat DTs to help with the run. Tim Anderson isn't the asnwer.


WE DON'T NEED DWIGHT FREENEY!

[Tatonka]

Quoting from footballguys.com article..

"He's back! OK, maybe not quite back all the way, but Colts DE Dwight Freeney finally had a sack, or at least half of one, and 3-1 tackles Sunday. It's pretty sad when his IDP owners get excited about the perennial All-Pro finally getting on the board, but when you realize that Freeney has had three games this year where he didn't register so much as a single tackle or a sack, it's at least movement in the right direction…
Freeney's half-sack came at an opportune time as it forced a fumble (credit given to LB Gary Brackett) in the third quarter that set up a touchdown three plays later to give the Colts a lead in a game they went on to win…
Some Colts fans are pointing to a slight change in the way holding penalties are called this season as the reason for Freeney's drastic reduction in sacks. Also, Freeney is double-teamed more often than not and even tripled teamed with regularity. Teams are leaving in their tight end more often than normal. Still, to some degree, this is nothing new. But the difference now is that whereby teams were once allowing Freeney one-on-one opportunities 7-8 times a game, they're only allowing that one or two times now…
Freeney is still putting pressure on opposing quarterbacks and still drawing holding penalties but he's not getting the sacks and it's been frustrating to Freeney. Teams are also passing less against the Colts, allowing fewer opportunities for Freeney. Last year, the Colts had an average of about 32 pass attempts per game against them. This year, the number is down to 27, second least in the league…"

Maybe he's watched the games too.

thanks for the info from a fantasy football site.. i know what i saw when i watched him.

it is an easy cop out to say he was always doubled and trippled.. it is also a load of ****.

i watched guys own him one on one.. i watched him get knocked around like a ***** while doing his one gay little spin move.

doesnt matter.. he wont be a bill..

[Tatonka]

Well Carson Palmer didn't have a down year either, he was "exposed" based on your one-year theory.

You just compared (favorably) Kelsay to Freeney based on tackles and sacks for THIS year.... Are you ****ing even remotely serious?

yeah.. i said kelsay was better than freeney, this year.

freeney sucked balls in all but one game.. kelsay was much more active in stopping the run and matched his sack totals.

i think your basing your opinion on freeney 2, 3, 4 years ago.. well what have you dont for me lately.. freeney had one good game ALL SEASON.. wow.. impressive.

[Tatonka]

I keep hearing these same Fantasy Football arguments about the Bills needing a pass-rushing DE every year it seems. That is by no means even close to being their major need on defense...not even one of the top two or three.

In case you missed it, the Bills have a Pro Bowl DE and one of the top pass-rushers in the league in Aaron Schobel, who dismissed previous concerns about only getting sacks in a few games a season by having sacks in a string of games exceeded only by Bruce Smith.

Moreover, the Bills got excellent production out of their DEs as a whole, with Denney and Kelsay combining for 11.5 sacks and Hargrove adding 2 I believe to go with Schobel's totals. Those are good numbers and they could have been even better if the Bills were able to stop the opposition from running the ball so well and were able to put their opponents in 3rd and long situations more often.

The Bills problem and the solution to their problems on defense is not at DE, but at the 1-gap DT spot and at LB. Kyle Williams did a decent job for a rookie, but they need for him to get bigger and stronger and to hold his ground better against double-teams. And, they need another 1-gap DT who can do the same thing--whether it is John McCargo or someone else. Even if they get that, however, they need a MLB who can evade and shed blockers who will attack the line of scrimmage and still do a good job in coverage.

And, they need at least one, preferably two, OLBs who will make plays and generate turnovers--whether that is Angelo Crowell or Takeo Spikes or Keith Ellison or someone else. And, they need to have their safeties learn from their experiences this year and do a better job in run support, while also improving their coverage skills and generating more turnovers (something that should come with experience).

They also may or may not need a starting CB to replace Nate Clements--Youboty may or may not be the answer, only the coaches really know that at this point.

Every NFL team can use a good pass-rushing DE, but, when you are getting the production that the Bills got from their DEs, you don't spend the resources that you would have to spend to acquire a Dwight Freeney--or even a high first round draft pick--on a DE at the expense of being able to address your more pressing needs at other positions.


stop it.. your making way to much sense.. we need to give freeney one of the most lucrative DE deals in history based on his one great game.

[EDS]

Yeah.. it would be awesome to have dominant defensive ends like Indy... I mean, we all know how good they are against the run.. 32nd in the league is nothing to scoff at.. and look at these mind boggling pass rushing numbers...

Dwight Freeney - 35 solo tackles, 10 assists, 5.5 sacks

Robert Mathis - 76 solo tackles, 14 assists, 9.5 sacks

those numbers look good.. just out of curiousity.. lets take a look at what we have currently..

BACKUP Ryan Denny - 38 solo tackles, 16 assists, 6 sacks

Chris Kelsay - 41 solo tackles, 20 assists, 5.5 sacks

Aaron Schobel - 35 solos, 18 assists, 14 sacks

that is weird.. it seems that both starters and one back up for the bills put up better numbers than freeney.. and schobel was one sack shy of equaling both freeney and mathis..

come on guys.. freeney cant stop the run and he is not a dominant pass rusher.. i watched him a ton this season.. he was not double teamed every play.. he didnt always have the running back chipping on him.. teams just caught on.. he isnt bull rushing anyone.. and if your tackle can control his speed move, he is done.

people need to realize that what we have at DE is not bad.

I don't think Freeney is a bum, and if pass rush was the Bills biggest need he would be worth looking at. That said, the Bills need run defense and Freeney does not help them in that regard.

And frankly, if the Bills are going to spend that type of coin on one player I rather they just resign Clements.

[Tatonka]

I don't think Freeney is a bum, and if pass rush was the Bills biggest need he would be worth looking at. That said, the Bills need run defense and Freeney does not help them in that regard.

And frankly, if the Bills are going to spend that type of coin on one player I rather they just resign Clements.

i agree.. if we are going to spend the money, dont waste it on a guy who cant help with our biggest need.. stopping the run.

[Gunzlingr]

I think Tatonka has a valid point. Dominating ends do not get completely owned 15 of 16 games. Especially in a contract year.

That said, it is a moot point anyway since he will not hit the market.

[Mudflap1]

Any bets Kelsay/Denney don't add up to 11.5 sacks next season? We take too much for granted that we may have indeed gotten a career year out of both of them, and because a superior pass rusher on another team didn't have as good of a year, our guys are better than him and will be for the rest of their careers. What if Freeney has 15 sacks next year and Kelsay/Denney have 4? It's not unreasonable. Well, I agree, Indy is going to tag him or re-sign him anyway, so it doesn't matter. But make no mistake, Freeney is better than Kelsay/Denney, it's not even close. Just the command for blocking he would receive based on the threat of his pass rushing alone would make Schobel even more of a monster.

Buffalo is on a budget though, so I would like to see them spend their money elsewhere, as there are bigger holes to fill.

Jon

[BillsFever21]

Some people can only look at one year to try and prove a point or base their decisions on.

The best of players in the league have down years statically wise. It doesn't mean they suck or will continue to suck.

In 1999 Michael Strahan went from 15.5 sacks the year before to 5.5 the next season. Then in 2000 he only had 9.5 sacks. After that he racked up 54 sacks over the next 3 years along with one of the years breaking the single season sack record.

As far as Freeney's FF's go that some are trying to skew because 3 were in 1 game in trying to say that's a fluke, he had 23 FF's in the 4 years prior to this.

Dominant players can have an off year especially on the statisical side. Non-dominant players don't put up 51 sacks and 23 FF's in a 4 year period prior to that season though.

Just because he didn't get sacks doesn't mean he didn't put pressure on the QB and force bad passes or somebody else got the sack instead. I don't buy the fact he wasn't double team or chipped by RB's all year either. There's a lot of factors involved when it comes to sack totals. Some guys can have a great sack total year but wasn't that great. Other players contribute to sacks. One player can put the pressure on and flush the QB out of the pocket while another guy comes in gets the sack instead.

So I guess Denny is as good as Freeney because they had the same number of sacks? The league can catch up to an average player after a year or two. Somebody doesn't dominant the league for 4 straight years without being good. It doesn't take 4 years of luck before the NFL finally catches up with you.

[BillsFever21]

Freeney already has 56.5 sacks and he's only 26. He still has many great years ahead of him as a sack machine.

But I guess by some theories guys like Michael Strahan would've been considered "caught up to" 6 years ago and he would've been long gone from the Giants by then.

[texasphinsfan]

Why do you need Clements? Overpaid corners are not essential in a cover 2 scheme. Not even Ronde Barber made as much money as Nate will make.
well see here is where the disagreement stems. i don't think he is overpaid. and he wants top-position money, when he IS near the top of his position in the league. You guys may think he's not as he might have had some off games, but you have to look at everything cumulatively.

Also don't use Champ Bailey as the benchmark - he is the extreme stud at his position, and should not be the standard.

[BillsFever21]

well see here is where the disagreement stems. i don't think he is overpaid. and he wants top-position money, when he IS near the top of his position in the league. You guys may think he's not as he might have had some off games, but you have to look at everything cumulatively.

Also don't use Champ Bailey as the benchmark - he is the extreme stud at his position, and should not be the standard.

Instead of giving Clements 7 million a year we will go out and spend that 7 million on two non-impact players that won't make a difference.

We spent a combined average of 5.5 million a year on Josh Reed and Peerless Price for a combined 800 yards receiving last year. That much on two dime a dozen WR's. Any WR for 700k a year could've gotten us 400 yards.

We can spend that much on the two of them to be #3 or #4 WR's but we can't spend 7 million a year on Nate Clements.

We could've grabbed two WR's for about a total of 1.5 million and saved 4 million dollars to take their spots last year. Then we went out and spent 7.5 million on Clements just to keep him around last year.

That could've been 11-12 million dollars towards a long term deal with Nate Clements. That would've been a good start. Not to mention we sat around with almost 10 million in cap space we didn't use.

Take that 12 million and another 3 million off the unused cap space last year and we could've already had 15 million dollars paid off on a 6yr-45 million dollar contract extension for Clements.

That means we could've had him for 5 more years for about 30 million at the most. That's 6 million a year. Chump change in this day of age especially for one of the top CB's in the NFL.

When guys like Peerless Price who hadn't done anything in 3 years gets an average contract of almost 3 million along with guys like Josh Reed who has never done anything and throw in Robert Royal and Melvin Fowler with the same rate of salary, then 6 million a year for the next 5 years wouldn't have been very damn much.

Christ Peerless Price made about 5 million last year and will make about 2+ million a year for the next 3 and he was one of the biggest busts in the NFL over the last few seasons but Nate Clements isn't worth 6 million in some people's view. That is truly amazing.

[Tatonka]

look... i understand that freeny had a down year.. i understand that he has been very good in the past..

what i am saying is that while he may be good again in the future, there is no guarentee, and he was SO awful this year, that i would be so damn scared to throw money at that guy no matter what.

and the biggest issue, aside from his lack of sack numbers, is the fact that dwight freeney doesnt strike fear into the hearts of opposing teams in regards to his run stuffing.. and if that is not fixed, how well we rush the passer is a moot point, because just like this year, teams will run the ball down our throat all game.

and i am NOT saying that denny or kelsay are as good as freeney.. i said they outplayed him this year. there is a difference.

but Mudflap, what is it that leads you to think that they wont continue to do well in this system, at least as well as they did this year? i mean i would **** a brick if they only got 4 sacks between them. why do you feel like that is something that could happen?

i know they are not stars.. but they are both solid.. they both get pressures.. they do enough, is what i am trying to say..

getting sacks this year was NOT a problem the bills were concerned about. we have one superstar DE.. we just need the other side to hold their own.. against the run and the pass, and i think they are both ok for that purpose.

i will get off my soapbox.

[texasphinsfan]

Instead of giving Clements 7 million a year we will go out and spend that 7 million on two non-impact players that won't make a difference.

We spent a combined average of 5.5 million a year on Josh Reed and Peerless Price for a combined 800 yards receiving last year. That much on two dime a dozen WR's. Any WR for 700k a year could've gotten us 400 yards.

We can spend that much on the two of them to be #3 or #4 WR's but we can't spend 7 million a year on Nate Clements.

We could've grabbed two WR's for about a total of 1.5 million and saved 4 million dollars to take their spots last year. Then we went out and spent 7.5 million on Clements just to keep him around last year.

That could've been 11-12 million dollars towards a long term deal with Nate Clements. That would've been a good start. Not to mention we sat around with almost 10 million in cap space we didn't use.

Take that 12 million and another 3 million off the unused cap space last year and we could've already had 15 million dollars paid off on a 6yr-45 million dollar contract extension for Clements.

That means we could've had him for 5 more years for about 30 million at the most. That's 6 million a year. Chump change in this day of age especially for one of the top CB's in the NFL.

When guys like Peerless Price who hadn't done anything in 3 years gets an average contract of almost 3 million along with guys like Josh Reed who has never done anything and throw in Robert Royal and Melvin Fowler with the same rate of salary, then 6 million a year for the next 5 years wouldn't have been very damn much.

Christ Peerless Price made about 5 million last year and will make about 2+ million a year for the next 3 and he was one of the biggest busts in the NFL over the last few seasons but Nate Clements isn't worth 6 million in some people's view. That is truly amazing.

good points. i think with the amount some players get paid, value gets skewed in the NFL. Granted some bills fans may not want to pay Clements, but how many players on the roster are overpaid? i am not familiar enough with the bills roster, but i know there are at least 8 players on the fins roster that are overpaid. Does that mean that clements shouldn't get what he's asking? I don't think so.

prices are elastic, and driven by supply and demand. the demand for good, quality DBs is high, and the supply is low. therefore, me personally.... i think he's worth his value.

[Mudflap1]

look... i understand that freeny had a down year.. i understand that he has been very good in the past..

what i am saying is that while he may be good again in the future, there is no guarentee, and he was SO awful this year, that i would be so damn scared to throw money at that guy no matter what.

and the biggest issue, aside from his lack of sack numbers, is the fact that dwight freeney doesnt strike fear into the hearts of opposing teams in regards to his run stuffing.. and if that is not fixed, how well we rush the passer is a moot point, because just like this year, teams will run the ball down our throat all game.

and i am NOT saying that denny or kelsay are as good as freeney.. i said they outplayed him this year. there is a difference.

but Mudflap, what is it that leads you to think that they wont continue to do well in this system, at least as well as they did this year? i mean i would **** a brick if they only got 4 sacks between them. why do you feel like that is something that could happen?

i know they are not stars.. but they are both solid.. they both get pressures.. they do enough, is what i am trying to say..

getting sacks this year was NOT a problem the bills were concerned about. we have one superstar DE.. we just need the other side to hold their own.. against the run and the pass, and i think they are both ok for that purpose.

i will get off my soapbox.

Well, I guess it's possible for Kelsay/Denney to have low numbers next year because Freeney did this year, it can happen to anybody. Those guys had a pretty decent year this year. Maybe next year will be the same or better, maybe not. Freeney has shown over several years he can put up numbers, Kelsay/Denney have not.

I just have seen a lot of stuff with the Bills over the years where the team makes a mistake thinking "so and so" will do the same or better as they had in one good year, so we can ignore that position completely and move on to something else. Pat Williams comes to mind. A couple years ago we thought we might be okay stuffing the run because Ron Edwards and company looked solid so we let him (Williams) go and now we are still paying for it and the effects are dominanting the exact conversation we are in now.

Where I agree with you is that I think stuffing the run is more important at this juncture (fixing the Pat Williams problem), the fact that Nate Clements and London Fletcher will likely walk leads me to want to have the Bills focus on putting those "Pat Williams-esque" fires out as well, as I feel those are bigger issues on the defense right now than getting an arguably great pass-rushing defensive end for a ton of money upgrading our already above-average defensive ends.

So in essence, I agree with you on all points except for the fact that I think Freeney is one heck of a player, and has even been a huge factor this year. Maybe he didn't put up big numbers this year like he has in the past, but that doesn't mean he's not worth the money from some team that desperately needs him (like the Colts). Charles Haley didn't have a lot of big sack years either, but he was still darn effective.

Jon

[Bulldog]

I don't think Buffalo will go after any of these high priced FA's. I get the impression that Marv and company would rather spend their money on several middle of the road FA's than throw a boatload of money at one big name. The Patriots have been doing this for years and I think we could all agree that they have been very successful with this approach. Now I know there is more to the Patriots success than that, but its a solid formula. Rather than having superstars at certain positions, you end up with a solid TEAM. I just hope the fans aren't disappointed when this happens again this year. Buffalo needs help in several areas, and this is one way of addressing those needs. It's also important to note that if Buffalo is going to take this approach, they better be dead on with their draft picks. Most of the high profile players on the Pats roster are draft picks. If you miss on your draft picks, it's going to get ugly in a hurry.

[Kerr]

thanks for the info from a fantasy football site.. i know what i saw when i watched him.

it is an easy cop out to say he was always doubled and trippled.. it is also a load of ****.

i watched guys own him one on one.. i watched him get knocked around like a ***** while doing his one gay little spin move.

doesnt matter.. he wont be a bill..

You know what you saw but did you know why you saw it? I spoke to some colt fans and they said that freeney has been playing injured much of the year. Not many people realize that, and I didn't know until they told me. They also said he was doubled and tripled and still was able to get qb pressures at least. You still want to call that a copout? Because if the guy was playing injured most of the year then that would explain a lot.

I realize there's a really good chance freeney won't be a bill, but just for the sake of argument, there's a good reason for his lousy year.

[Bert102176]

from what I've heard the Bills should have a bit of money this off season to spend

[Tatonka]

if freeney played injured, then that is one thing.. i have never heard of anything in regards to that.. if the guy plays huge next year, then i will eat crow, because he has been good in the past, but i am just not a fan.

teams have been doubling him since he was a rookie.. so i dont get why this year all the sudden it would hurt him.

regardless, it seems the colts wont let him go anyways, so again.. it is a moot point.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I don't think Buffalo will go after any of these high priced FA's. I get the impression that Marv and company would rather spend their money on several middle of the road FA's than throw a boatload of money at one big name. The Patriots have been doing this for years and I think we could all agree that they have been very successful with this approach. Now I know there is more to the Patriots success than that, but its a solid formula. Rather than having superstars at certain positions, you end up with a solid TEAM. I just hope the fans aren't disappointed when this happens again this year. Buffalo needs help in several areas, and this is one way of addressing those needs. It's also important to note that if Buffalo is going to take this approach, they better be dead on with their draft picks. Most of the high profile players on the Pats roster are draft picks. If you miss on your draft picks, it's going to get ugly in a hurry.

Marv Levy has pretty much said that this is his approach. Although he also said that he would not be adverse to adding one or two higher priced free agents if he thought that they were the right guys and would be a significant upgrade.

There was an article that appeared either in the Buffalo News or the Democrat and Chronicle (it was not the BZ front page) where Marv talked about free agency and said that because of the costs and the number of big-money free agents who have been busts, he feels that it is very risky to rely on building around high-priced free agents (implying that you can tie up too much money in those players that you can't use elsewhere if they are busts).

He said that he believes that the best way to acquire the players that you build your team around is through the draft (in other statements, he has said that it is important to try to retain your own free agents, which goes "hand and glove" with this). He also said that free agency is good for adding depth and role-players--players who do the little things that help a team to win--and that that was what the Bills tried to do in free agency last year and would probably be the way that they would continue to approach free agency.

I'm not sure if it was in the same article or not, but Marv has also talked about "coaching up" and developing the team's young prospects (the guys who come to the team as "projects" who a lot of fans forget about if they don't come in and make a splash or even play as rookies), so that they can step up and make contributions or even take over starting roles. (This is one reason why I happen to think that they will give Youboty a shot at taking over Clements' starting job next season.)

Based on that, I think a lot of Bills fans will be disappointed this off-season when the Bills don't go out and sign the grocery list of high-porfile free agents that they think that the team should sign and continue to bring in lower-case, cheaper, perhaps even marginal, players in free agency. I think they will blame it on Ralph Wilson being cheap (which he has been at times) without even taking into consideration that is also consistent with the way that Levy thinks is the best way to go about building a team.

I think that, as Marv has said, the Bills will spend money on one or maybe two high-profile, big-ticket free agents, if they really think that there is a guy on the market who will make a big difference for the team that it is unlikely that they can get from a player that they draft or have on their roster. But, I think that they will have to be convinced that he will be a player who will continue to play at a high level after they sign him and that the cost of signing him will not adversely effect their ability to address other positions and players on the team.

[Kerr]

if freeney played injured, then that is one thing.. i have never heard of anything in regards to that.. if the guy plays huge next year, then i will eat crow, because he has been good in the past, but i am just not a fan.

teams have been doubling him since he was a rookie.. so i dont get why this year all the sudden it would hurt him.

regardless, it seems the colts wont let him go anyways, so again.. it is a moot point.


Not many people outside of indy know about the injury apparently according to them.

[Tatonka]

i find it hard to believe though that a guy could be injured and no one knows about it but the great fans of indy. it just seems to me that it would be leaked to the media no question. i mean hell, indy would love to be able to throw out an excuse for why freeney has played like garbage.

[Kerr]

i find it hard to believe though that a guy could be injured and no one knows about it but the great fans of indy. it just seems to me that it would be leaked to the media no question. i mean hell, indy would love to be able to throw out an excuse for why freeney has played like garbage.

Which is why apparently it hasn't been leaked all over the media. They don't want to use that as an excuse I figure. This is not the first time i've heard of the media not getting a hold of a players injury. Some teams like to keep it under wraps until the offseason.

[kernowboy]

He'd be hugely expensive.

Polian will tag him, so we'll have to give up high picks that could be used to reinforce key areas. And if we don't deal with the DT issue, he's still going to get double teamed