Take Freeney off your list of available FA's!

[HHURRICANE]

Freeney's gone. Polian was on NFL Sirrius and basically said if they couldn't sign him long term he was getting the franchise tag.

After looking at the Bills roster on Defense I don't see how we don't upgrade LB and DT. Clements is gone and I really don't see us going for anything but depth behind Youboty. That's pretty much a lock. So we aren't getting an impact CB. Period.

Tim Anderson blows. We have nobody behind him or Tripplett. I'm sure Marv and Dick both saw the same games as us. At LB we have the same issue. If we sucked at stopping the run last year what makes us think losing Fletcher and not upgrading the position is going to get us a different result?

DT and LB are the#1 and #2 priority!

[eyedog]

Good. Can we stop the Freeney coming to Buffalo talk ? That was never going to happen, even though some where wishing upon a star. Polian was never letting him loose, but we will let our best defensive player loose. Go fiqure. One team is in the Super bowl and the other can't make the play-offs for the decade. Must be a coincidence.

[Talk0fNewYork]

We would have never gotten him in here!

[Carlton Bailey]

Good, I guess. Better to have the dream killed now.

[Talk0fNewYork]

True^

[jamze132]

We didn't need Freeney anyways. We should just re-sign Kelsay and keep it the way we had it last year. It's hard to dispute, what 25 sacks from our DEs?

[Saratoga Slim]

We didn't need Freeney anyways. We should just re-sign Kelsay and keep it the way we had it last year. It's hard to dispute, what 25 sacks from our DEs?

I agree that DE is more a "want" than a "need." we got decent QB pressure from the DE position. Freeney would probably bring more, but its hard to say whether he'd outperform the Kelsey/Denney rotation. My guess is he would, but not enough to justify the big price tag he'd command.

[Kerr]

Freeney must not be overrated if polian wants him back after a lousy year, huh?

[Goobylal]

If they franchise Freeney, and it's looking like they'll have to, they're going to lose a bunch of other guys. Soon that team will be just Manning, Harrison, Wayne, and Freeney.

[eyedog]

They have already proved how important the rb position was. They let James walk ,draft Addai and platoon him and they don't miss a beat. You may have noticed they have kept their left tackle Glenn over the long haul and recentlly locked up their right tackle Diem. next they lockup the pass rusher. I think Polian knows what he's doing.

[HHURRICANE]

We didn't need Freeney anyways. We should just re-sign Kelsay and keep it the way we had it last year. It's hard to dispute, what 25 sacks from our DEs?

I don't see us resigning Kelsay. Denney's under contract and I really see Hargrove moving to DE. The money we save will be used to fortify the middle where we just got plain abused!!

[ICE74129]

They have already proved how important the rb position was. They let James walk ,draft Addai and platoon him and they don't miss a beat. You may have noticed they have kept their left tackle Glenn over the long haul and recentlly locked up their right tackle Diem. next they lockup the pass rusher. I think Polian knows what he's doing.

BINGO! More the reason to let willis go, we dont' need him

[Michael82]

Good news. Maybe if they franchise him or re-sign him....they will be forced to let both Jason David and/or Nick Harper go. I'd take either of them at CB, to help give time for Youboty to get ready for the starting job.

[Michael82]

Oh, plus...the Bills don't need a ****ing DE. They got one of the best ones in Aaron Schobel, plus a couple very underrated DEs in Kelsay and Denney. :up:

[BillsFever21]

Freeney's gone. Polian was on NFL Sirrius and basically said if they couldn't sign him long term he was getting the franchise tag.

After looking at the Bills roster on Defense I don't see how we don't upgrade LB and DT. Clements is gone and I really don't see us going for anything but depth behind Youboty. That's pretty much a lock. So we aren't getting an impact CB. Period.

Tim Anderson blows. We have nobody behind him or Tripplett. I'm sure Marv and Dick both saw the same games as us. At LB we have the same issue. If we sucked at stopping the run last year what makes us think losing Fletcher and not upgrading the position is going to get us a different result?

DT and LB are the#1 and #2 priority!

That's no shock. Colts aren't gonna let a great player on their defense go. Every year you have a great player(s) that everyone will talk about that we could possibly get. The facts are they either won't wanna come to Buffalo, their team will keep them or Buffalo won't pay them anyway.

[Jan Reimers]

Did anyone really think that the Colts were going to let one of the premier pass rushing DEs in the league just up and leave?

If you did, you're too immersed in Madden Football.

[HHURRICANE]

That's no shock. Colts aren't gonna let a great player on their defense go. Every year you have a great player(s) that everyone will talk about that we could possibly get. The facts are they either won't wanna come to Buffalo, their team will keep them or Buffalo won't pay them anyway.

When you really think about it does a FA ever come in and make the contribution that you think they are going to. The best players in Bills history were all drafted or brought in as rookies. What FA have we brought in during the past 10 years that has lived up to the expectations? Even Spikes has been a disappointment. I'm still not over his Monday night game against the Chiefs a few years back.

[BillsFever21]

Good. Can we stop the Freeney coming to Buffalo talk ? That was never going to happen, even though some where wishing upon a star. Polian was never letting him loose, but we will let our best defensive player loose. Go fiqure. One team is in the Super bowl and the other can't make the play-offs for the decade. Must be a coincidence.

We're only 40 million under the cap. We need that money so we can give players like Josh Reed, Peerless Price, Melvin Fowler and Robert Royal 2.5-3 million a season. There is no way we could spend 6 or 7 million a year on a great player when we can get steals like that for 3 million.




Sarcam off.



I sure the hell hope they don't have Youboty penciled in as our starter. He dropped to the 3rd round for a reason after all the 1st round predicitons. He isn't close to being ready yet and he's a project.

The guy wasn't even good enough last year to make our gameday roster and you have some homers in here who thinks we can let Clements go and throw in Youboty and we'll be just fine.

Sure, a 6 year top CB like Nate Clements or a 2nd year player who bombed in the draft and couldn't make the gameday roster and was instead beat out by a journeymen like Kiwaukee Thomas and an undrafted 3rd year player in Jabari Greer.

I can see why it won't be any problem letting Clements go.

But we can sit on probably another 20 million in cap space this year so we can save that money for 2 more years down the road on homegrown FA's that we won't sign because there will be other players coming up 2 years after that who we will need to save money to re-sign.

This is pathetic and there is no excuse for it. Whenever our team looks like we're turning the corner the next season we just fall back down again and weaken our team.

This year it looked like our team might be turning the corner and was close to competing for a playoff spot. Now we go out and get rid of 2 of the best players on our defense and now we're left with a weaker defense and loss of continuity along with leadership that guys like Fletcher brought to the table.

We're supposed to be building a team. We have many weak spots. When you have a great player you keep them so you can focus on the other spots in the draft. You let them walk and it just opens up one more area you have to try and rebuild on. It's a revolving door and you never finish the job.

Now instead of having the CB position set for 5 more years and we can focus on places like DT, LB and OL, now we have to worry about replacing CB also.

[HHURRICANE]

Oh, plus...the Bills don't need a ****ing DE. They got one of the best ones in Aaron Schobel, plus a couple very underrated DEs in Kelsay and Denney. :up:

You and I see pretty much eye to eye on everything but Denney/Kelsay are one of the issues on this team not one of the answers. I have made this point before that 1 guy who can get 10 sacks is better tha 2 guys that can get 13. Schobel would be a force with a comprable guy on the other side.

[BillsFever21]

So the ones who wouldn't spend 7 or 8 million a year on a dominant DE. Right now Denny is gonna make 2.7 this year. Lets go and re-sign Kelsay too and he can make another 2.5-3 million a season. Now you have almost 6 million tied up into two average rotational guys that doesn't come close to matching the things Freeney could do with a 7 million dollar salary or so.

It's just like our Josh Reed and Peerless Price combo. We have 5.5 million wrapped up in them guys this year for two #3 WR's. You could go out and get a great WR for 6 million a year that would produce more then both of them together.

I guess the Bills way of thinking is it's better to have two average non-impact players making 6 million between them instead of having one great impact player making 6 million.

If this is our strategy then we're in serious trouble.

Denny, Reed and Price are making about 8 million between the 3 of them this year.

Melvin Fowler around 2.8 million. Robert Royal about 2.2 million.

These are all guys we signed last year which are counting 13 million against are cap. These are all guys that isn't anymore of an upgrade then what we had before and won't make any impact. These are dime a dozen players you can draft and pay 1/3 of that price for.

That 13 million are 2 great players or 3 pretty damn good players. Players that would fill some of our gapping holes for years to come. Instead that money is wasted on 2nd string quality non-impact players that we didn't need and the other holes still exist.

Hell even throw in Craig Nall and theres another 1.7 million. That's almost 15 million annual salary a year we spent on a bunch of castoffs and nobodies last offseason but we don't wanna pay great players 6 or 7 million a year.

Now this year we can go out and sign some more non-impact castoffs from other teams for 2.5 or so million a year and still be trying to fill them holes instead of just re-signing or signing good players that will solve the problem.

With this strategy it will be another 5 years before we might see the playoffs. By the time that rolls around all the rookies we drafted will be reaching free agency and they will be gone and we'll be back to square one again.

[HHURRICANE]

So the ones who wouldn't spend 7 or 8 million a year on a dominant DE. Right now Denny is gonna make 2.7 this year. Lets go and re-sign Kelsay too and he can make another 2.5-3 million a season. Now you have almost 6 million tied up into two average rotational guys that doesn't come close to matching the things Freeney could do with a 7 million dollar salary or so.

If this is our strategy then we're in serious trouble.

With this strategy it will be another 5 years before we might see the playoffs. By the time that rolls around all the rookies we drafted will be reaching free agency and they will be gone and we'll be back to square one again.

100% agree!! I don't understand the lovefest with our mediocre players? We did go 7-9, right? We did a pretty good job of losing with Fletcher, Denney, Kelsay, Ellison, etc. Matter-of-fact they were all on the same field losing together. I agree on bringing an impact player in. It's just not going to be Freeney because he is unavailable.

[BillsFever21]

100% agree!! I don't understand the lovefest with our mediocre players? We did go 7-9, right? We did a pretty good job of losing with Fletcher, Denney, Kelsay, Ellison, etc. Matter-of-fact they were all on the same field losing together. I agree on bringing an impact player in. It's just not going to be Freeney because he is unavailable.

I know it won't be Freeney. Most teams keep great players and show them the money. I was just using him as an example. They have no problem staying within the cap. Hell just about every team in the league is in pretty good cap shape this year except for a few. Yet we're 40 million under and some say we can't afford to pay anybody any money year after year because we need to "save" it for other players.

Well, duh. You already have a great player. Pay them the money. When the next time rolls around we'll still be a 6 or 7 win team and we'll be saying we need to save the money to "build" on. Building a team consist of bringing in and/or keeping great players. I just understand some people. I'm glad there is a few that gets it.

Like you said above, we did a good job of losing with all them players. Now we can go ahead and not add any other good players and get rid of 1 or 2 more and act like it's no big deal.

We lost with all the average players some feel we'll be fine with what are we gonna be like with our best player(s) gone? It's gonna be even worse.

[BillsFever21]

Good management plans for future cap hikes also. We hoarded our money the last couple years because we needed to "save" it and said other teams were stupid for showing great players the money and how they were gonna be in cap hell.

The cap goes up about 15 million and now we just have a ton of money laying around we won't spend while the playoff teams who signed the great players are in decent cap shape now.

I don't know if it's Ralph Wilson cheaping out or if management really feels they can copy the Patriots even though no other team has been able to. Either way it's not a good sign for the future of our team.

[HHURRICANE]

I know it won't be Freeney. Most teams keep great players and show them the money. I was just using him as an example. They have no problem staying within the cap. Hell just about every team in the league is in pretty good cap shape this year except for a few. Yet we're 40 million under and some say we can't afford to pay anybody any money year after year because we need to "save" it for other players.

Well, duh. You already have a great player. Pay them the money. When the next time rolls around we'll still be a 6 or 7 win team and we'll be saying we need to save the money to "build" on. Building a team consist of bringing in and/or keeping great players. I just understand some people. I'm glad there is a few that gets it.

Like you said above, we did a good job of losing with all them players. Now we can go ahead and not add any other good players and get rid of 1 or 2 more and act like it's no big deal.

We lost with all the average players some feel we'll be fine with what are we gonna be like with our best player(s) gone? It's gonna be even worse.

If you are referring to keeping Clements I would say "no". If he was the number 1 corner in the league than I would say "pay him". But he's not and I'd rather pay number 1 money for a number 1 guy.

[BillsFever21]

If you are referring to keeping Clements I would say "no". If he was the number 1 corner in the league than I would say "pay him". But he's not and I'd rather pay number 1 money for a number 1 guy.

He's not #1 but he is easily a Top 10. If he wanted in the middle of Top 10 money I would pay him.

Some thinks he is only average but he isn't. He has a couple bad games and some think no great CB has bad games. Look at all the times he's taken on some of the best WR's in the league and shut them down. Chad Johnson comes to mind a couple times.

Some just don't realize just how bad some of the CB's in this league are compared to Clements. Especially in a league which they gear the rules to the passing game and with many teams adopting a pass first mentality you need a great corner. A 3rd round draft pick who couldn't even make the gameday roster over a couple journeymen undrafted CB's isn't gonna cut it next season.

If we could get Clements for 6-7 million or so a year I would take it. That's Top 10 money and there will be teams lined up to pay him. Are they just stupid teams? Many of them will be playoff teams or team that will be much better then us in the future. Now if he wants some unrealistic crazy figure like 9 million a year(Champ Bailey money) then let him walk. 6-7 a year is fair market value for a Top 10 or so CB especially the way the salaries have esculated and will even continue to escualte.

When you have scrubs like Melvin Fowler, Josh Reed, Peerless Price and Ryan Denney making almost 3 million in the 2nd year of a long term deal then 6-7 for Clements doesn't seem very bad if you ask me.

6-7 million nowadays is like 5 million a few years ago with the escualation of the future salary cap. We have plenty of money that won't be spent anywhere else either. I say if we could get him for that then we do anything possible to keep him.

If we keep Clements and our continuity together and finish the rest of our holes on defense we could have a great defense.

It's the same thing as our terrible run defense. We couldn't stop the run so they didn't need to pass. If we have junk at the CB and can't stop the pass then them running over us isn't that big of a deal.

Many are underestimating the importance of a shut down corner. Them 3rd and 6's that usually get your defense off the field can easlily turn into 1st downs which will lead to points.

Look no further then Fred Thomas of the Saints for an example. He was pathetic and they picked him apart everytime they needed a big play(Bears) or a 1st down. Their great DL meant nothing because Thomas' inability to make a play kept Chicago moving.

I gurantee you if the Saints had somebody like Clements they beat the Bears and they're playing this Sunday instead. I could see somebody like them showing Nate the money and he would instantly cure their problem.

For years with guys like Pat Williams as an example we've heard people saying they wern't worth the money and we have other holes that need filled. He was either past his prime, not worth the money or we younger draft picks that could step in for him or we could replace him in the draft(i.e. Ron Edwards, Tim Anderson)

Well we let him walk because we didn't wanna pay him 4 million a year or so because it was "too much" and we had other holes. Since then the Vikings now have one of the best run defenses in the league and Williams is going to another pro bowl. I bet everybody wishes we still had him last year.

[BillsFever21]

If we wern't gonna pay Clements his fair market value then Levy dropped the ball last season. What was the sense of paying him 7.3 million last season just to play for 1 season on a team that wasn't gonna make the playoffs? We could have easily traded him for a high 2nd round pick at the worse.

If you had a team that was close to the SB then I can see keeping him for a season instead of trading him. When it's a young team that had no realistic shot of going to the playoffs let alone a deep run in the playoffs and is supposed to be rebuilding you ended up screwing yourself. We should've traded him to help towards the rebuilding process that we've been doing for 5 years now. You let a young player with high trade value walk for nothing. I can gurantee you many other GM's wouldn't have done that and wouldn't gotten something for him.

[Saratoga Slim]

They have already proved how important the rb position was. They let James walk ,draft Addai and platoon him and they don't miss a beat. You may have noticed they have kept their left tackle Glenn over the long haul and recentlly locked up their right tackle Diem. next they lockup the pass rusher. I think Polian knows what he's doing.
Right on dude. I think Willis is going to be our RB this year, but I don't think he's getting a pricey extension, and I don't see him getting resigned. unless you have a premier back who is the focal point of the offense, its just not worth spending major money on that position.

[BillsFever21]

Your window of opportunity is very short in the NFL. You have about 3-5 years to do your business.

When you refuse to show great players the money and just sign average guys for half the price(and overpaid) you never start the process.

If you wanna be a halfway competitive team every year. A team that will win 7 games or so and maybe sneak into a playoff spot once in a while only to get crushed in the 1st round then you can adopt this theory of building. If you wanna go for the gold and have your window of opportunity then you keep good players around and help keep that continuity going on the team. That means a lot and is very underestimated.

[HHURRICANE]

He's not #1 but he is easily a Top 10. If he wanted in the middle of Top 10 money I would pay him.


I could have saved you some typing. He wants #1 money. He's stated as much. He wouldn't take Champ Bailey money at this point. So offering a #2 contract wasn't going to get it done. The Bills only mistake was guaranteeing not to franchise him. I'm still hoping to hear a coherent reason out of Marv. If not, I agree that not trading him was incredibly short sighted.

[BillsFever21]

I could have saved you some typing. He wants #1 money. He's stated as much. He wouldn't take Champ Bailey money at this point. So offering a #2 contract wasn't going to get it done. The Bills only mistake was guaranteeing not to franchise him. I'm still hoping to hear a coherent reason out of Marv. If not, I agree that not trading him was incredibly short sighted.

Every player towards the top of their positions say they want #1 money going into free agency. I know what he said. I haven't been in a cave the last 2 months.

It's part of negotiations. A player isn't gonna come out and say I want Top 10 money or so at my position. Then he's gonna end up with Top 15 money. They start off as high as they can.

If a player started the bidding with #1 money and he was a Top 10 player the team is gonna start the bidding with Top 10-15 money. Basically a 3 million dollar a year difference or so. If the player wants to be there then they eventually settle for a contract somewhere between which would put them with Top 5-7 money or so.

As far as Levy promising not to franchise him this season that is a mistake and it shows major weakness on the behalf of Levy. The Bills had all the leverage last year with the franchise tag.

If Clements wanted to be a dick then they could've traded his ass to the Texans or Raiders to show him who is boss. If all else fails what is Clements gonna do sit out the season and lose 7.3 million dollars? I highly doubt it.

I have never heard of a GM promising a player they wouldn't franchise him the following season just to get him to sign the 1 year tender. Instead of the Bills having all the leverage and the franchised player having to cave into their demands somehow in an unthinkable way it shows instead Marv wasn't strong enough and Clements had the leverage and Levy ended up caving into his demands. What kind of a GM who represents the vision for the best future of a team promise a player who is one of the best at his position and only 26 years old that he wouldn't franchise him the following season and he could walk without the team getting any compesation back at all.

For them to franchise him they obviously felt he was a Top 5-10 player at CB or they certaintly wouldn't have paid him 7.3 million dollars to play on a team that had no chance of making the playoffs. We had no problem at all fitting that 7.3 million into the cap last year. That's a huge number that you wouldn't see in his extension for at least a few years. We still had plenty of cap room to spare. We sat on about 10 million last year.

Marv showed he is very weak when it comes to negotiations and disputes. The same way that he caved into the Texans' demands and settled for a 5th rounder for Moulds when he wanted more. It took us a 5th rounder to get Anthony Hargrove who had never done anything and in the last year of his contract.

Marv's failure to play hardball has showed up in the contracts he gave to dime a dozen players last offseason also. NO team and I mean NO team was barely even wanting to speak to Peerless Price last year let alone give him 3 million a season in a multi year contract and over 4 million between bonuses and salary for last season after doing absolutely nothing for 3 years. The guy was released from two teams in the same season the year before and ends up with 5 million dollars in his pocket the next year along with a multi year deal? NO team in the NFL would've touched him for a 4 year contract. Maybe a 1 year deal for a million bucks or so but not a 4 year deal making over 4 million in the 1st season.

How do we end up giving him a contract like that? That is unbelivable. If that's what Price wanted and wouldn't budge on it then he wouldn't have been playing football last year if we didn't give him the contract. It all falls down to Marv not strong enough to play hardball.

The same way that Butler was who would cave in to player demands instead of getting the best deals for the franchise is the same way Marv is.

Overpaying for stud talent is one thing but it's even worse to overpay for scrubs. Look at all the scrubs we signed for 2.5-3 million last year? The list goes on and on. For all the scrubs around the NFL that got that kind of money last season most of them came running to Buffalo because we were one of the only teams who would cave in and be foolish enough to give them that money.

When Peerless Price and Josh Reed is making more then Lee Evans there is a problem. When Craig Nall is making as much as JP Losman you have a problem. When Ryan Denney is making 2.7 million and Aaron Schobel is only making a little over 2 million more(5m) you have a problem.

You can ruin your cap by giving out too many big contracts but you can also ruin your cap by overpaying and giving career backups pretty hefty contracts.

Fowler, Price, Reed, Royal, Denney and Craig Nall. A bunch of backup caliber players all counting 2-3 million dollars on the cap next year in the 2nd year of a contract. These guys have no business making this kind of money.

Look no further then the fact that Levy can't play hardball and caved into everybody's demands last season. To promise somebody like Clements he wouldn't be franchised the following season is the worst thing any GM could do when they hold all the cards. There is no excuse for that.

Decisions like that along with a salary cap total of about 15 million dollars this season for the players listed above is the type of things that will cripple your team and leave them reserving vacation plans at the end of December every year.

[kernowboy]

1) I thought Schobel signed a 4 or 5 year contract for about $23m - that's more than $2m a season
2) Evans is still playing on his rookie contract - it will be significantly upgraded
3) Its not about copying the Pats. Freeney is a RE as is Schobel. We'd have needed a LE but Denney, Kesay and HArgrove have all made a decent fist of it. We need decent players we can rotate and keep fresh
4) We can't have superstars in all positions
5) Marv made a clever decision with Nate
a) he made sure there was no holdout
b) by agreeing not to tag, he had Nate playing for a contract in at least the 2nd half of the year
c) he didn't have a player not bothering having signed a wbopping contract prematurely
d) by being a man of his word, it will certainly encourage rather than discourage free agents to come
e) from what I understand Nate hasn't said he won't resign. He can see a team on the up and a GM who acts with class. That may intrude on his decision making
6 Why the downer on Youboty? Yes he got beat out and brought along very slowly. He also suffered significant personal tragedy the hampered his development as well as learning the pro game and a new system. He'll come along.

Royal picked up as did Tripplett. Price came along. We had a number of new players playing in a new location with maybe a familiar system but being implemented by a different coaching staff and surrounded by a number of rookies. Judge the free agency class on their second year performance.

[ublinkwescore]

we should make him an offer anyways so the colts will have to match it to keep him - and that should hopefully make a bit of a dent in the colts' cap.

[YardRat]

$40mil in cap room is overstated by only about 25% according to clump's update. He has us closer to 32mil.

Freeney was a pipe dream...even if Polian changes his mind and doesn't tag him, he isn't coming here.