Are The Bills Telling Us Something About Ian Scott?

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I found this blog entry from Chris Brown's blog on BB.com quite curious and could not help but think that either the Bills are trying to tell us that they are not as interested in Ian Scott as we all seem to think they are or are trying to hide their interest in him by downplaying him:

"IAN SCOTT? MAYBE NOT: Though Scott is going to be a free agent and a Chicago Tribune report indicated he will likely not be retained by the Bears I'm not convinced that he would be a major upgrade at nose tackle. I was watching him in the NFC Divisional playoff game against Seattle and I didn't come away too impressed. He was getting pushed off the ball at the line of scrimmage. Granted it was just one game, but he was rotated out for a lot of the important plays in that game. I don't know that the Bills believe Scott to be much better than Kyle Williams. They need a stud NT in there, and I don't know that one exists in free agency, which means Buffalo will likely have to look to the draft...."
http://buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?blogger_id=1

Brown goes on to talk about Branch probably not being available at # 12 and the fact that Branch takes plays off not sitting well with the Bills coaching staff. He goes on to mention that he was really high on Okoye, but thinks that he is a 3-gap DT and wouldn't fill the Bills' need for a 1-gap DT. Then, he concludes by saying that, while Brandon Mebane looks like a good player, he doesn't appear to be the stud that the Bills need and that this is going to be a difficult position for the Bills to fill.
http://buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?blogger_id=1

We all know that this is a tough position to fill and that there aren't a lot of top-flight candidates that the Bills can turn to in order to fill it. That's why I can't help wondering if this entry is meant to throw us all "off the scent" or if it is a signal that the Bills may be addressing the position in an entirely different way than many of us have been thinking/hoping that they would.

Because, since Marv took over as GM, the Bills have been very good about indicating what their thinking is (remember last year they did bring in M.Huff and word did come out of The Combine that they talked a lot with and really liked Whitner--but most of us missed it because we didn't think Huff would drop to the Bills and figured that they would draft a DT?), while at the same time, camoflaging their intentions, I believe that it is important to pay close attention to the subtleties of the comments, etc. that come out of OBD or that are posted on the BB.com website. While I don't think that Chris Brown is a confidante of Marv Levy or a direct spokesman for him, I do think that he is privy to some inside information and they do use him as a conduit to disseminate information and misinformation when it suits their purposes. For that reason, I found this particular blog entry rather curious and worth posting for everyone's consideration.

[YardRat]

Any 'news' that comes out of OBD pertaining to FA or the draft, I always take with a grain of salt.

[RedEyE]

I think it's telling us that Ian Scott is the only notable NT available not only in FA but in the draft. In other words, look for the Bills to go into next season with the same DTs they currently have on the roster.

[DraftBoy]

I think it's telling us that Ian Scott is the only notable NT available not only in FA but in the draft. In other words, look for the Bills to go into next season with the same DTs they currently have on the roster.

My setiments echo these, we may add a fringe FA but no major changes till we see a full year of McCargo.

[eyedog]

I have no sympathy for them. Ngata fell into their laps last year and they passed on him. I'm still waiting to hear a good reason why. He had the size and strength to anchor the middle of that line.

[ICE74129]

It also signals you can bet your bippy ILB will be addressed with #12 and an OLB will be brought in va FA. Marv knows this defense needs some real playmakers at LB and we dont' have it right now, at least to the level we need to be a playoff team / SB contender.

Now DB has a DE he likes and I agree the cat is really good, but for some reason I see hargrove being our LDE this coming year.

Point is LB is going to need to be drastically upgraded and I see it being done ASAP along with RG

[DraftBoy]

I have no sympathy for them. Ngata fell into their laps last year and they passed on him. I'm still waiting to hear a good reason why. He had the size and strength to anchor the middle of that line.


We dont use his size in our defense, what more of a reason do you need? We dont have a big body DT system. Why would we bother to draft a player who doesnt fit our system?

[DraftBoy]

It also signals you can bet your bippy ILB will be addressed with #12 and an OLB will be brought in va FA. Marv knows this defense needs some real playmakers at LB and we dont' have it right now, at least to the level we need to be a playoff team / SB contender.

Now DB has a DE he likes and I agree the cat is really good, but for some reason I see hargrove being our LDE this coming year.

Point is LB is going to need to be drastically upgraded and I see it being done ASAP along with RG


Why do we need to bring in 2 other LB's? we got three starters already. Ellison, Spikes, and Crowell, I dont see the logic behind us taking an LB #1. Id rather move Spikes or Crowell inside.

[ICE74129]

Why do we need to bring in 2 other LB's? we got three starters already. Ellison, Spikes, and Crowell, I dont see the logic behind us taking an LB #1. Id rather move Spikes or Crowell inside.

Seriously? you feel good about that LB corp? Outside of Crowell I have no faith in any of them. People need to realise TKO isn't ever going to be what he was. I watched him jump on guys instead of hitting them. I watched Travis Henry flat truck him repeatedly.

As for as ILB we need an impact player there and we don't have one at LB on this team. We don't have one guy that has the athleticism of P Willis or R Alexander on this team and that is what we are needing badly.

What I have never understood is why fans feel a guy like ellison is going to be an NFL QUALITY starter just because the bills drafted him?

[DraftBoy]

Seriously? you feel good about that LB corp? Outside of Crowell I have no faith in any of them. People need to realise TKO isn't ever going to be what he was. I watched him jump on guys instead of hitting them. I watched Travis Henry flat truck him repeatedly.

As for as ILB we need an impact player there and we don't have one at LB on this team. We don't have one guy that has the athleticism of P Willis or R Alexander on this team and that is what we are needing badly.

What I have never understood is why fans feel a guy like ellison is going to be an NFL QUALITY starter just because the bills drafted him?


Lets be clear here, do I feel comfortable with that corp? Yes, and here's why; TKO's injury is documented as taking about 24 months to fully recover, he'll be at that point next season. Keith Ellison preformed well last season and I see no reason why he would not get any better. Im not assuming he's going to be good bc the Bills drafted him, I think he will be bc I saw how he played last year. To ignore his play is just ignorant. I agree an ILB/OLB would be nice to bring in, but I dont think its this huge need like everybody is making it out to be.

[Talk0fNewYork]

Were Taking Lynch End Of Story

[eyedog]

We dont use his size in our defense, what more of a reason do you need? We dont have a big body DT system. Why would we bother to draft a player who doesnt fit our system?


So I've been told. Really is he that slow that he couldn't fit in this defense ? I know damn well he could stuff the run better than any d-lineman on this team.

[DraftBoy]

So I've been told. Really is he that slow that he couldn't fit in this defense ? I know damn well he could stuff the run better than any d-lineman on this team.


His ability is not in question, its a simple matter of taking players that are intended for your system v. those that are not intended. Aside from all that, he played a good bit of 3-4 DE, so im not sure he would of been as good as a 4-3 DT this year.

[OpIv37]

I think it's telling us that Ian Scott is the only notable NT available not only in FA but in the draft. In other words, look for the Bills to go into next season with the same DTs they currently have on the roster.

so much for 2007. If we can take anything from 2006, it's that our DT's are NOT GOOD ENOUGH. It does seem like there are a lack of options available at the position, but we shouldn't expect better results from the same ingredients.

[OpIv37]

We dont use his size in our defense, what more of a reason do you need? We dont have a big body DT system. Why would we bother to draft a player who doesnt fit our system?

because small body DT's can't stop the run, especially in short yardage situations. It's an inherent flaw in the system. A corps of 290-lb DT's is basically surrendering 3rd and 3 or less every time.

[madness]

because small body DT's can't stop the run, especially in short yardage situations. It's an inherent flaw in the system. A corps of 290-lb DT's is basically surrendering 3rd and 3 or less every time.

NFL statistics on 3rd and 3 or less for Cover 2 teams would disagree with you every time.

[OpIv37]

NFL statistics on 3rd and 3 or less for Cover 2 teams would disagree with you every time.

Buffalo Bills 2006 statistics on 3rd and 3 or less would disagree with that every time.

[DraftBoy]

Buffalo Bills 2006 statistics on 3rd and 3 or less would disagree with that every time.


Can you prove that?

[OpIv37]

Can you prove that?

maybe later- I don't have time to go searching the internet for stats at the moment.

But you guys watched the same games I did- we ceded a LOT of short yardage situations.

[DraftBoy]

maybe later- I don't have time to go searching the internet for stats at the moment.

But you guys watched the same games I did- we ceded a LOT of short yardage situations.


And we also gave up more yard per carry to the outside than the inside, which doesnt tell me that our DT's are as bad as you seem to think. I did the research for that by going through each individual game situation and posted in on the board.

[OpIv37]

And we also gave up more yard per carry to the outside than the inside, which doesnt tell me that our DT's are as bad as you seem to think. I did the research for that by going through each individual game situation and posted in on the board.

and how many sacks/pressures did our DT's get in a system that is designed to get pressure from the DT's?

Answer: not nearly enough.

[HHURRICANE]

I have no sympathy for them. Ngata fell into their laps last year and they passed on him. I'm still waiting to hear a good reason why. He had the size and strength to anchor the middle of that line.

I agree with you. Tim Anderson sucks and if we go another season with him than we deserve another 7-9 season.

[Saratoga Slim]

maybe later- I don't have time to go searching the internet for stats at the moment.

But you guys watched the same games I did- we ceded a LOT of short yardage situations.

Our DL played just like our OL in short yardage situations: never seemed to generate the push needed to succeed in those circumstances. While the unit might be good in other respects, agree this was a weakness.

That said, if we know 1-gap DT was a weakness, but there's no one out there in FA or the draft that will really help us, we're stuck with hoping KW and JMccargo step up next season. I'm not happy about it either--and maybe its not even true, maybe there is someone who would help out--but if there is no help to be found, so be it. Concentrate on the positions we can upgrade, like perhaps the LB corps.

[DraftBoy]

and how many sacks/pressures did our DT's get in a system that is designed to get pressure from the DT's?

Answer: not nearly enough.


The system is not designed for the DT's to get pressure, they are designed to penetrate, it is the DE's job as is traditional to pass rush. How many sacks did our DE's get?

[Bmax]

I would say a stop gap like Hollis Thomas may be a consideration. His issue with roids .. may be a problem....Street free agent is probably the route they may go ...

They seem to be wating for Mccargo to develope into the one spot.. Williams and Mccargo would be a good team at one ..,But who helps triplett at the 3 ? Okoye would be a great addition, but something tells me they could go mebane , johnson from Miss st or harrell in rd 2 ,3, or 4.... Patterson from Ohio st is a guy to look at day 2 ..rd 6 or 7 a motor guy who is undersized 277 ....20 lbs would help... developemental guy...maybe free agent


Bmax

[ICE74129]

Lets be clear here, do I feel comfortable with that corp? Yes, and here's why; TKO's injury is documented as taking about 24 months to fully recover, he'll be at that point next season. Keith Ellison preformed well last season and I see no reason why he would not get any better. Im not assuming he's going to be good bc the Bills drafted him, I think he will be bc I saw how he played last year. To ignore his play is just ignorant. I agree an ILB/OLB would be nice to bring in, but I dont think its this huge need like everybody is making it out to be.

please link to documention showing TKO WILL Be 100% 24 months from his injury esp at his age. It has been linked here many times from different sources that players NEVER come back. Most of the time the AH injury is a career ender. TKO hasn't been the impact we needed him to be from the moment he got here. Cinci was more than willing to let him walk and has done just fine with the guys they got. With his injury I dont' think we are ever going to see him return to what he was. Either way, he isn't worth what he is taking up in cap space now.

Ellison, I saw the same games, he is average. He isn't the impact presence we need at OLB. He is going to be a career backup. This defense needs a Briggs or even a P willis type of impact LB to help it, and that type of LB is NOT on this roster at all.

a much better ILB is VITAL to the cover 2, and I don't even like Crowell in there. This LB corp needs to be drastically upgraded.

[madness]

and how many sacks/pressures did our DT's get in a system that is designed to get pressure from the DT's?

Answer: not nearly enough.

It's easy to criticize the DT position when Tim Anderson was a starter and there was no depth. Can you tell me how many legitimate backups we had after McCargo went down? *Hint* Jefferson is no where near legitimate. So we had only one real starter and one decent backup for most of the year.

The team relied on Anderson as a starter so they can fill necessary holes elsewhere. Both Marv and Dick had both mentioned the DL is a priority this year so once we have a real nose along side Tripplett and some decent depth, this issue we be long forgotten.

[OpIv37]

The system is not designed for the DT's to get pressure, they are designed to penetrate, it is the DE's job as is traditional to pass rush. How many sacks did our DE's get?

penetrate and do what? Stand there?

The idea is that they penetrate to cause a disruption in the backfield. On passing plays, that's the same thing as pressuring the QB or at the very least, making him move.

[OpIv37]

It's easy to criticize the DT position when Tim Anderson was a starter and there was no depth. Can you tell me how many legitimate backups we had after McCargo went down? *Hint* Jefferson is no where near legitimate. So we had only one real starter and one decent backup for most of the year.

The team relied on Anderson as a starter so they can fill necessary holes elsewhere. Both Marv and Dick had both mentioned the DL is a priority this year so once we have a real nose along side Tripplett and some decent depth, this issue we be long forgotten.

and that's exactly why I said the DT's we have are NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Anderson and Jefferson suck and since it's a rotational system we need at least 4 decent ones. Right now, we have Tripplett (who wasn't all that impressive), Kyle Williams, and maybe McCargo. At the very least, we need someone decent (not necessarily a superstar) to replace Anderson and Jefferson.

[madness]

please link to documention showing TKO WILL Be 100% 24 months from his injury esp at his age. It has been linked here many times from different sources that players NEVER come back. Most of the time the AH injury is a career ender.



For Seattle linebacker Julian Peterson, who ruptured his Achilles in 2004 while playing for San Francisco, did get back on the field in time for the opener the following season, but admitted he wasn't the same.
"To me it felt like it was going to take forever," said Peterson of his return to full form. "I was like, 'Man, I'm not going to be the same. I'm not going to be able to jump the same, I can't push off this foot like I want to.' As I told (Takeo), the Achilles might be healed up, but all the little things between your ankle, foot and your big toe have to come back to play. But as the season went on, I started getting more and more explosiveness in my foot."
While it took Peterson a couple of months into the season to be the same player again, that was not the case for Chicago safety Mike Brown, who from the first game in 2005 was the same player he always was after suffering the same injury.

[X-Era]

I have no sympathy for them. Ngata fell into their laps last year and they passed on him. I'm still waiting to hear a good reason why. He had the size and strength to anchor the middle of that line.

First off, we dont have him so its a moot point.

Secondly, what has he done thats so great? He skipped almost all of the mini-camps due to his contract, he had questions about his conditioning going into the draft, and he ended up with 30 total tackles, 1 sack, 1 int.

Our own Kyle Williams, drafted MUCH MUCH lower, ended up with 53 total tackles, no sacks, no ints.

I see no clear indication that Ngata over any of he guys we drafted would have drastically changed our fortunes.

[raphael120]

you guys do know we have like 7 LB's, not counting Fletch.

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>96</TD><TD class=altRow2>Manning, Roy (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=122706)</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>LB</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>6-2</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>245</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>26</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>2</TD><TD class=altRow2>Michigan</TD></TR><TR><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>53</TD><TD class=altRow1>Haggan, Mario (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=81562)</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>LB</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>6-3</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>248</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>26</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>4</TD><TD class=altRow1>Mississippi State</TD></TR><TR><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>59</TD><TD class=altRow2>Fletcher-Baker, London (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=5545)</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>LB</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>5-10</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>245</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>31</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>9</TD><TD class=altRow2>John Carroll</TD></TR><TR><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>51</TD><TD class=altRow1>Spikes, Takeo (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=5132)</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>LB</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>6-2</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>242</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>30</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>9</TD><TD class=altRow1>Auburn</TD></TR><TR><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>52</TD><TD class=altRow2>DiGiorgio, John (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=122683)</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>LB</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>6-2</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>225</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>23</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>R</TD><TD class=altRow2>Saginaw Valley State</TD></TR><TR><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>56</TD><TD class=altRow1>Ellison, Keith (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=122674)</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>LB</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>6-0</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>228</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>22</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>R</TD><TD class=altRow1>Oregon State
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>57</TD><TD class=altRow2>Stamer, Josh (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=33440)</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>LB</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>6-2</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>238</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>29</TD><TD class=altRow2 align=middle>4</TD><TD class=altRow2>South Dakota</TD></TR><TR><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>55</TD><TD class=altRow1>Crowell, Angelo (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=81563)</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>LB</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>6-1</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>235</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>25</TD><TD class=altRow1 align=middle>4</TD><TD class=altRow1>Virginia
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Haggan is worthless, but he's the kind of size we need for a MLB. If your OLB is 242, like Spikes, you at least need someone that big up the middle, the LOLB side can be lighter, hence Crowell. Ellison is nothing more as a backup for Crowell. How many LB's on our team do we need before we realize we dont need more players that are "showing promise" or "looks good"? How many of those LB's on this list made game changing plays when we needed them? Ellison did have that INT at the Jets and he was flying around the ball, but by no means is he big enough to stuff the middle. Now if one of these guys bulks up, thats fine. but id be interested to know what theyre going to do with these 7 LB's they already have. roy manning...who knows what they want in this guy, but i just have a feeling that theyre number 1 need is going to be CB, and not LB. LB we have tons of players, DT, we also have some players but i really see the Bills going for a DT in a later round and CB as a priority. maybe a WR too. Our LB pool right now is filled with mediocre/average talent...will Marv stick with what we got or build on it? Some of these players like Haggan, Spikes, wont be here too much longer. So thats a good reason if the right MLB falls in our laps, we should probably take it...but at the same time our dire need is CB. who knows what will happen...thoughts?

[X-Era]

I agree with you. Tim Anderson sucks and if we go another season with him than we deserve another 7-9 season.

So we should have drafted 3 DT's last year??? Guys, its not like we didnt address the D line. And as I stated already Ngatas numbers arent better than Kyle Williams.

[madness]

First off, we dont have him so its a moot point.

Secondly, what has he done thats so great? He skipped almost all of the mini-camps due to his contract, he had questions about his conditioning going into the draft, and he ended up with 30 total tackles, 1 sack, 1 int.

Our own Kyle Williams, drafted MUCH MUCH lower, ended up with 53 total tackles, no sacks, no ints.

I see no clear indication that Ngata over any of he guys we drafted would have drastically changed our fortunes.

The stats are a tiny bit misleading since Ngata is mainly in Baltimore to suck up blockers so Ray Lewis has more chances to do his stupid taunts after every single tackle. Although it does show he wasn't a fit for our system int the first place.

:lolpoint: Ngata (a 5th round backup had more tackles then you)

[Ickybaluky]

For Seattle linebacker Julian Peterson, who ruptured his Achilles in 2004 while playing for San Francisco, did get back on the field in time for the opener the following season, but admitted he wasn't the same.
"To me it felt like it was going to take forever," said Peterson of his return to full form. "I was like, 'Man, I'm not going to be the same. I'm not going to be able to jump the same, I can't push off this foot like I want to.' As I told (Takeo), the Achilles might be healed up, but all the little things between your ankle, foot and your big toe have to come back to play. But as the season went on, I started getting more and more explosiveness in my foot."
While it took Peterson a couple of months into the season to be the same player again, that was not the case for Chicago safety Mike Brown, who from the first game in 2005 was the same player he always was after suffering the same injury.

Don't forget Ronald Curry, either. Curry blew his achilles twice.

He was eased into the lineup last year after missing a lot of training camp, and spent most of the season as the Raiders 3rd WR. However, by the end of last season he was the Raiders best WR. He was elevated to the starting lineup at the end of the year and responded. He caught 33-339-1 over the last 4 Oakland games, which is tremendous production. That translates to over 130 catches and 1350 yards over a full season.

[OpIv37]

So we should have drafted 3 DT's last year??? Guys, its not like we didnt address the D line. And as I stated already Ngatas numbers arent better than Kyle Williams.

yeah but this has been a consistent theme with this team: addressing positions in ways that don't work. Donahoe was constantly tweaking the OL but it never got any better. Constant attempts have been made at TE- Remeirsma, Campbell, Royal, Everrett- but none have been better than mediocre.

The DL was addressed with two draft picks, (one who was a 5th rounder and one who was arguably a reach), a back-up turned into a starter in Tripplett, and re-signing Denney cuz we couldn't get Idonije from the Bears. And big surprise- it wasn't good enough.

People keep saying "we can't keep using draft picks and FA acquisitions on the same positions year after year" and I agree- but in order to do that, we need to find players in those positions who can ACTUALLY GET THE JOB DONE.

[madness]

Don't forget Ronald Curry, either. Curry blew his achilles twice.

He was eased into the lineup last year after missing a lot of training camp, and spent most of the season as the Raiders 3rd WR. However, by the end of last season he was the Raiders best WR. He was elevated to the starting lineup at the end of the year and responded. He caught 33-339-1 over the last 4 Oakland games, which is tremendous production. That translates to over 130 catches and 1350 yards over a full season.

Thank you, forgot about him. Being a Tarheel basketball fan, I guess a can't doubt his decision to play football over basketball anymore.

[OpIv37]

And we also gave up more yard per carry to the outside than the inside, which doesnt tell me that our DT's are as bad as you seem to think. I did the research for that by going through each individual game situation and posted in on the board.

when you did your study, did you account for plays where the RB got to the outside running away from a DT who missed a tackle?

[Devin]

please link to documention showing TKO WILL Be 100% 24 months from his injury esp at his age. It has been linked here many times from different sources that players NEVER come back. Most of the time the AH injury is a career ender.



For Seattle linebacker Julian Peterson, who ruptured his Achilles in 2004 while playing for San Francisco, did get back on the field in time for the opener the following season, but admitted he wasn't the same.
"To me it felt like it was going to take forever," said Peterson of his return to full form. "I was like, 'Man, I'm not going to be the same. I'm not going to be able to jump the same, I can't push off this foot like I want to.' As I told (Takeo), the Achilles might be healed up, but all the little things between your ankle, foot and your big toe have to come back to play. But as the season went on, I started getting more and more explosiveness in my foot."
While it took Peterson a couple of months into the season to be the same player again, that was not the case for Chicago safety Mike Brown, who from the first game in 2005 was the same player he always was after suffering the same injury.


Well i reckon that kills that argument.

There are exceptions to every injury rule. TKO imo will be better then he was in 2006 but slightly less effective then he was in 2004.

[DraftBoy]

penetrate and do what? Stand there?

The idea is that they penetrate to cause a disruption in the backfield. On passing plays, that's the same thing as pressuring the QB or at the very least, making him move.


Where are your stats proving that we got no pressure on the QB? Our DE's combined for how many sacks? 26.5. We had 40 team sacks. I think the defense is progressing nicely. We need a run stopping DE, and some LB and DT depth.

We had the #3 sack artist in the league in Aaron Schoebel with 14 sacks.

Also we finished in the top half of the league on 3rd down Defense (12th to be exact).

You still havent even attempted to explain why your on this DT kick when our run D to the inside isnt as bad as our run D on the outside? What would a DT do to help that?

[DraftBoy]

when you did your study, did you account for plays where the RB got to the outside running away from a DT who missed a tackle?


Cant account for that without the game film. I went by NFL.com play by play. You want the results, just search for them, its detailed there.

[Devin]

While we could use a better DT inside, the far biggerr need is a true everydown DE opposite Schobel imo anyway, one who is capable against the run.

[eyedog]

First off, we dont have him so its a moot point.

Secondly, what has he done thats so great? He skipped almost all of the mini-camps due to his contract, he had questions about his conditioning going into the draft, and he ended up with 30 total tackles, 1 sack, 1 int.

Our own Kyle Williams, drafted MUCH MUCH lower, ended up with 53 total tackles, no sacks, no ints.

I see no clear indication that Ngata over any of he guys we drafted would have drastically changed our fortunes.

If you didn't already know, his main job isn't to make tackles. We need him to clog the middle, eat up double teams, and allow the lbers to clean up, all at the los preferably. If he can play some end in a 3-4 i'm sure he could handle tackle in our tampa-2. But your right he isn't here. The point is they cannot keep screwing up the draft by missing on linemen in the draft.

[ICE74129]

Again I ask, show me a link stating TKO WILL BE 100% again. You have linked one little article that covers a couple guys, not how the injury has effected the greater amount of athletes having it as a whole.

You also don't take into account the ages of TKO vs the other guys. TKO won't be 100% folks, I'm just going to be kind and not sing I told ya so when it becomes fully obvious

[ICE74129]

Well i reckon that kills that argument.

There are exceptions to every injury rule. TKO imo will be better then he was in 2006 but slightly less effective then he was in 2004.

It doesn't kill anything. One or two guys vs the whole of athletes who have had it
? Again homerisim is kicking in. Because he is a Buffalo Bill he MUST Beat all the odds. (yeah heavy sarcasm)

TKO was never that great in the first place. he had a couple games where he shined but was never the consistant stud that a guy like briggs is.

[DraftBoy]

Again I ask, show me a link stating TKO WILL BE 100% again. You have linked one little article that covers a couple guys, not how the injury has effected the greater amount of athletes having it as a whole.

You also don't take into account the ages of TKO vs the other guys. TKO won't be 100% folks, I'm just going to be kind and not sing I told ya so when it becomes fully obvious


Nobody said, and I know I sure as hell did not say he was going to be 100%. I said it takes around 24 months to fully recover. I expect an improvement next year in TKO. He did not always make all the plays but he did strike fears into opposing offenses where they would go out of their way to run to the other side. You may call it homerism that I have faith in him, but your the anti-homer with the current bill of rhettoric your spitting out. You pretty much think any Bill that was hurt/under preformed needs to be replace, unfortunately thats not how the real world works, and its not dooms day quite yet.

[OpIv37]

Where are your stats proving that we got no pressure on the QB? Our DE's combined for how many sacks? 26.5. We had 40 team sacks. I think the defense is progressing nicely. We need a run stopping DE, and some LB and DT depth.

We had the #3 sack artist in the league in Aaron Schoebel with 14 sacks.

Also we finished in the top half of the league on 3rd down Defense (12th to be exact).

You still havent even attempted to explain why your on this DT kick when our run D to the inside isnt as bad as our run D on the outside? What would a DT do to help that?

"Isn't as bad" is not the same as being good, and you said yourself we need depth at DT. The run D needs help all the way around. What's wrong with getting a starting DT and using McCargo and Williams for depth in the rotation instead of using those guys as starters and bringing in some second-tier guy for depth?

[EDS]

Where are your stats proving that we got no pressure on the QB? Our DE's combined for how many sacks? 26.5. We had 40 team sacks. I think the defense is progressing nicely. We need a run stopping DE, and some LB and DT depth.

We had the #3 sack artist in the league in Aaron Schoebel with 14 sacks.

Also we finished in the top half of the league on 3rd down Defense (12th to be exact).

You still havent even attempted to explain why your on this DT kick when our run D to the inside isnt as bad as our run D on the outside? What would a DT do to help that?

It is because opponents only need to utilize two blockers to nullify our DTs on running plays allowing them to send waves of linemen, tight ends and running backs to the outside to wall in the Bills DEs and LBs.

It is not very often that a Bill DT penetrates into the opponents back field to disrupt a running play - even though this is what the system is supposedly designed to do.

So again, if our DTs are good enough where the opponents have to throw an extra blocker or two at them then it takes away from the numbers game that is enveloping the rest of the defense.

I am not saying our DEs are great at stopping the run, just that they are better at what they do then our DTs. Why do you think the coaches and front office have indicated the need to improve the interior of the defensive line as an off-season priority?

The Bills biggest problem is that there do not appear to be any players available in free agency or the first round that meet their defensive tackle need. This is unfortunate. But, there HAS TO BE SOMEONE in the second through fourth round that is an upgrade from Anderson (and possibly an upgrade from Williams). There is no way this team can go into next season with Anderson or Jefferson as the 4th defensive tackle again - what happens if McCargo, Williams or Triplett get injured? Our whole system is based on using waves of DTs but we can't do that with only 2 or 3 NFL caliber DTs.

[DraftBoy]

"Isn't as bad" is not the same as being good, and you said yourself we need depth at DT. The run D needs help all the way around. What's wrong with getting a starting DT and using McCargo and Williams for depth in the rotation instead of using those guys as starters and bringing in some second-tier guy for depth?


Well thats fine, but do you really want to pay McCargo first round money, and have wasted a high valuable pick on a bench player? Thats just horrible personnell strategy, esp since we have no idea how good/bad McCargo is. But if thats your move as GM so be it.

[Ickybaluky]

It doesn't kill anything. One or two guys vs the whole of athletes who have had it

You don't take into account advances in medicine. Knee injuries that ended careers 20 years ago are now 6-month rehabs, and guys return effectively. Achilles injuries used to be sure career-enders, but in the last 5 years new techniques have allowed guys to return to form.

He named 3 guys who blew achilles in the last few years who returned to start and play close to their pre-injury form in their second year back: Julian Peterson, Mike Brown and Ronald Curry.

Can you name any starting NFL player who suffered an achilles injury in the last few years who didn't come back? You keep saying most guys don't, but it seems all the recent guys have.

[OpIv37]

Well thats fine, but do you really want to pay McCargo first round money, and have wasted a high valuable pick on a bench player? Thats just horrible personnell strategy, esp since we have no idea how good/bad McCargo is. But if thats your move as GM so be it.

or, we could just go into the season hoping that McCargo is good enough without really knowing- that's a brilliant GM strategy that leads to wins. It worked so well last year with Triplett, Royal, Reyes, Price.... :rolleyes:

At what point do you get PROVEN players instead of signing other teams' back ups and/or hoping that sooner or later a pick will develop (Everett, Reed, Preston, Anderson.... )?

[DraftBoy]

It is because opponents only need to utilize two blockers to nullify our DTs on running plays allowing them to send waves of linemen, tight ends and running backs to the outside to wall in the Bills DEs and LBs.

It is not very often that a Bill DT penetrates into the opponents back field to disrupt a running play - even though this is what the system is supposedly designed to do.

So again, if our DTs are good enough where the opponents have to throw an extra blocker or two at them then it takes away from the numbers game that is enveloping the rest of the defense.

I am not saying our DEs are great at stopping the run, just that they are better at what they do then our DTs. Why do you think the coaches and front office have indicated the need to improve the interior of the defensive line as an off-season priority?

The Bills biggest problem is that there do not appear to be any players available in free agency or the first round that meet their defensive tackle need. This is unfortunate. But, there HAS TO BE SOMEONE in the second through fourth round that is an upgrade from Anderson (and possibly an upgrade from Williams). There is no way this team can go into next season with Anderson or Jefferson as the 4th defensive tackle again - what happens if McCargo, Williams or Triplett get injured? Our whole system is based on using waves of DTs but we can't do that with only 2 or 3 NFL caliber DTs.


Good post. I disagree on the waves of linemen/TE being used to block our DE's. In the few games I saw (3 I think) very few times were our DE's chipped or having to deal with two blockers during a running play. Most often it was one on one with a tackle, or TE. I agree our DT's MUST get better at penetration, however, we still have no idea what McCargo brings, Kyle Williams was good last year and is improving (we hope), and Tripplett better start to earn his pay check.

As for DT's beyond Round 1 that could be good fits;
DT Tank Tyler 6-2, 310
DT Marcus Thomas 6-3, 290
DT Brandon Mebane 6-1, 300
DT Kareem Brown 6-5, 310
DT Antonio Johnson 6-3, 305

[DraftBoy]

or, we could just go into the season hoping that McCargo is good enough without really knowing- that's a brilliant GM strategy that leads to wins. It worked so well last year with Triplett, Royal, Reyes, Price.... :rolleyes:

At what point do you get PROVEN players instead of signing other teams' back ups and/or hoping that sooner or later a pick will develop (Everett, Reed, Preston, Anderson.... )?


And what Proven player are you suggesting? Would that be Ian Scott with little to no starting exp? Maybe a 19 year old instead? You have no better choices in reality at DT. Thats why I choose my approach.

[eyedog]

Cowart. The guy was never the same player.

[OpIv37]

You have no better choices in reality at DT.

then expect to be 7-9 or worse. You can't get better results with the same ingredients.

[Ickybaluky]

He named 3 guys who blew achilles in the last few years who returned to start and play close to their pre-injury form in their second year back: Julian Peterson, Mike Brown and Ronald Curry.

Wait! I forgot Jon Jansen, the Redskins RT. He blew his achilles in 2004 and returned to start the last 2 years.

And Derrick Burgess, who blew his achilles in 2003 and went on to lead the NFL in sacks for the Raiders last year.

If you want to go to the NBA, Vince Carter blew his achilles and returned to All-star form.

That is 6 professional athletes, 5 football players, who blew out their achilles tendon and were able to return to form after the injury.

The bottom line is, the achilles injury isn't as big a medical challenge as it once was. Just like knee injuries are routinely fixed and players are able to return to form, doctors can fix an achilles and allow an athlete to play again at a high level.

That is 6 guys in recent years who all blew their achilles and returned to form. I'm still waiting for you to name one guy who blew and achilles in the last 4-5 years and wasn't able to return. Considering you say that is the normal outcome, it shouldn't be hard for you to do.

Unless, of course, you were talking out your butt. That would be an upset.

[Ickybaluky]

Cowart. The guy was never the same player.

If that injury happened today, he probably recovers given improvements in medical care.

[eyedog]

If that injury happened today, he probably recovers given improvements in medical care.

And you know this to be true due to improvements in medical care ? Such as ?

I'm not a doctor but I would believe each injury is different to the degree of severity. Where TKO is on this scale I have no idea but I wouldn't assume he's a slam dunk to return to his old form. He most certainly didn't have that form this past season.

[DraftBoy]

then expect to be 7-9 or worse. You can't get better results with the same ingredients.


I pretty much do, stated that at the end of the season. 2 years away imo

[DraftBoy]

Wait! I forgot Jon Jansen, the Redskins RT. He blew his achilles in 2004 and returned to start the last 2 years.

And Derrick Burgess, who blew his achilles in 2003 and went on to lead the NFL in sacks for the Raiders last year.

If you want to go to the NBA, Vince Carter blew his achilles and returned to All-star form.

That is 6 professional athletes, 5 football players, who blew out their achilles tendon and were able to return to form after the injury.

The bottom line is, the achilles injury isn't as big a medical challenge as it once was. Just like knee injuries are routinely fixed and players are able to return to form, doctors can fix an achilles and allow an athlete to play again at a high level.

That is 6 guys in recent years who all blew their achilles and returned to form. I'm still waiting for you to name one guy who blew and achilles in the last 4-5 years and wasn't able to return. Considering you say that is the normal outcome, it shouldn't be hard for you to do.

Unless, of course, you were talking out your butt. That would be an upset.

If you keeping making sense I cant neg you to red

[Ickybaluky]

And you know this to be true due to improvements in medical care ? Such as ?

I'm not a doctor but I would believe each injury is different to the degree of severity. Where TKO is on this scale I have no idea but I wouldn't assume he's a slam dunk to return to his old form. He most certainly didn't have that form this past season.

I'm not doctor either, but players are returning in recent years, when before it ended careers. I'm sure improved rehab of these injuries is a factor as well, as it is with knee injuries.

Bottom line: Look at the guys this injury has happened to recently, and you see them returning and playing well, after a year back.

[eyedog]

I hope it is true. We can use the old TKO.

[OpIv37]

I hope it is true. We can use the old TKO.

if we had the 2004 TKO, we might be able to get by with him, Ellison and Crowell as starters. But like you, I have my doubts and I think we definitely need to add a starting caliber LB this off-season.

[EDS]

Wait! I forgot Jon Jansen, the Redskins RT. He blew his achilles in 2004 and returned to start the last 2 years.

And Derrick Burgess, who blew his achilles in 2003 and went on to lead the NFL in sacks for the Raiders last year.

If you want to go to the NBA, Vince Carter blew his achilles and returned to All-star form.

That is 6 professional athletes, 5 football players, who blew out their achilles tendon and were able to return to form after the injury.

The bottom line is, the achilles injury isn't as big a medical challenge as it once was. Just like knee injuries are routinely fixed and players are able to return to form, doctors can fix an achilles and allow an athlete to play again at a high level.

That is 6 guys in recent years who all blew their achilles and returned to form. I'm still waiting for you to name one guy who blew and achilles in the last 4-5 years and wasn't able to return. Considering you say that is the normal outcome, it shouldn't be hard for you to do.

Unless, of course, you were talking out your butt. That would be an upset.

Good stuff.

[Devin]

You don't take into account advances in medicine. Knee injuries that ended careers 20 years ago are now 6-month rehabs, and guys return effectively. Achilles injuries used to be sure career-enders, but in the last 5 years new techniques have allowed guys to return to form.

He named 3 guys who blew achilles in the last few years who returned to start and play close to their pre-injury form in their second year back: Julian Peterson, Mike Brown and Ronald Curry.

Can you name any starting NFL player who suffered an achilles injury in the last few years who didn't come back? You keep saying most guys don't, but it seems all the recent guys have.

:bf1:

[TigerJ]

I think the Bills are going to solicit DNA samples from their present players and given them to a crack team of geneticists and cloning specialists to manufacture a DT that has all the qualities we need. We could have a DT with the quickness of Rosco Parrish, the size and strength of Jason Peters and the warrior mentality of Takeo Spikes.

[mysticsoto]

It doesn't kill anything. One or two guys vs the whole of athletes who have had it
? Again homerisim is kicking in. Because he is a Buffalo Bill he MUST Beat all the odds. (yeah heavy sarcasm)

TKO was never that great in the first place. he had a couple games where he shined but was never the consistant stud that a guy like briggs is.

This is a classic case of believing the grass is greener on the other side. TKO has always been great pre-injury and has placed his heart into every play. At the beginning of the year might be the only time you can argue that he didn't look great. But he, like most people on the team, was adjusting to a new scheme and that takes time. I think TKO will return close to original form and would be a great MLB. Even if he were to lose a step in speed/explosiveness - at the middle position, the more important skill to have is tackling and shedding tackles which TKO should still be able to do effectively...

[HHURRICANE]

So we should have drafted 3 DT's last year??? Guys, its not like we didnt address the D line. And as I stated already Ngatas numbers arent better than Kyle Williams.


Larry Tripplett
Jason Jefferson
Kyle Williams
Tim Anderson
John McCargo

That's not looking like "addressing the D-line" to me.

[HHURRICANE]

This is a classic case of believing the grass is greener on the other side. TKO has always been great pre-injury and has placed his heart into every play. At the beginning of the year might be the only time you can argue that he didn't look great. But he, like most people on the team, was adjusting to a new scheme and that takes time. I think TKO will return close to original form and would be a great MLB. Even if he were to lose a step in speed/explosiveness - at the middle position, the more important skill to have is tackling and shedding tackles which TKO should still be able to do effectively...

He showed some stuff the last 2 games for sure. However, he looked pretty bad in the other games he played. I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon. If he had played the last 2 games as poorly as the others most would be posting that he should be cut.

[mysticsoto]

He showed some stuff the last 2 games for sure. However, he looked pretty bad in the other games he played. I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon. If he had played the last 2 games as poorly as the others most would be posting that he should be cut.

As in anything - you test out players in TC and and the mini-camps and put in the best player available. The FO should also be talking to the doctors to decide on TKO's current rehabilitation and where they think he can be when he fully recovers. All this, plus checking out FA talent should help decide what we do in the draft. I'm all for getting Briggs if possible, but if not, Ellison was a great pickup and we can move people around to compensate for a slight loss of explosiveness from TKO - and if that's all he loses, he could still be a formidable MLB for us.

[raphael120]

there's something to be said about our rookie DTs (McCargo and Williams (who is supposed to bulk up as per head office recommendations)) coming on next season and getting it, getting the NFL, getting the system, and turning out to be really good players. kyle williams, if he bulks up will be a solid started, but again, do we have the NT material on our team right now? is mccargo bulks up? who?

[madness]

That is 6 guys in recent years who all blew their achilles and returned to form. I'm still waiting for you to name one guy who blew and achilles in the last 4-5 years and wasn't able to return. Considering you say that is the normal outcome, it shouldn't be hard for you to do.

Unless, of course, you were talking out your butt. That would be an upset.

Sure did get quiet in here.:popcorn:

[Kerr]

Be as it may, those players were lucky to come back to form, but it's yet to be seen whether Tko will return to form or not.

[Bert102176]

this team needs alot of help, a rb cause Willis is a joke, a number 2 WR a TE cause Royal just won't do we need some OL help Villerial and Gandy stink, a ILB with Fletch being gone, a DE cause besides Schobel well were **** out of luck and a run stuffing middle man plus with Nate leaving we need help at CB, and also a FB cause well ours drops to many balls out of the backfield and couldn't block my grandma in her electric wheelchair.

[HHURRICANE]

I hope it is true. We can use the old TKO.

Which "old" TKO are you looking for? The one that played in Cincy or the one that we got?