I think I've come up with who Buffalo will take at #12

[patmoran2006]

I gotta tell ya guys.. I been at least trying to study Free AGency and the draft as often as I can.

It's hard when it comes to the Bills though for two reasons.
1) Despite having nearly more cap room than any team in the league, how much Wilson is willing to spend is up in the air.
2) Last year's #8 draft choice showed that Levy and staff dont pay much attention to what other people say.

Though its too early to be able to stick by it, I've FINALLY come up with the player that I think the Bill will take #12 provided they don't sign a major guy via FA.

That guy is : Charles Johnson, DE (Georgia)

From everything I've read he is a good all around DE, and though he's been very low-key thus far he's climbing up draft boards, as evidenced by being the 13th overall player ranked on Kiper's board.

I really dont want Kelsay back as I think he's to one dimensional. And I REALLY think we need to improve our run defense in the front seven.
Im thinking at DT they will stick with the McCargo/WIlliams.Tripplett trio and sign a veteran big-guy/run stuffer in Free AGency. Anderson from Chicago last year proved what an impact a solid rookie DE can immediately have.

I don't think Jarrett fits our team in terms of character, I dont think they will take Levi Brown or Okoye either.. Branch and Anderson will be gone... Levi Brown may be gone and even if not, Lynch doesnt appear to be worth a #12 anymore... No LB or CB is worth the 12th pick

Makes me think the player is going to be Johnson, so it may be time to start studying him.

[camelcowboy]

He may not make it, I heared he's one of the faster rising prospects.

[patmoran2006]

I would LOVE to have a talented, exciting DE over any other position on this team when it comes to what we "need".

Im sticking with him ESPECIALLY if we dont bring Kelsay.. Charles Johnson

[Devin]

Johnson will go in the first im sure, but Ive never been to big on him. Hes very very raw, reminds me of Erik Flowers (when he was drafted) back in the day. He has the size, but he also benefitted from Moses on the other end.

He's also very similar to Schobel in his ability, while hes not bad against the run his speciality is the pass rush.

Im not saying he wont be a good player in fact i think he will eventually be a great player, He (imo) is just going to take a little time to develop at the pro-level. Personally I think he should have stayed for his senior season. Hes only 20 I believe.

He will need a very good combine imo to crack the top 15. But even still Anderson, Adams and maybe even Carriker will likely go ahead of him.

[bigbub2352]

Pat i agree 100% about Kelsay, he has done nothing to warrant a new contract, i like Hargrove and think he is the depth and maybe starter, i like your pick at DE too, if it is not him i would luv Jarrett, he would be a dimension to the offense we sorely need

[DraftBoy]

Johnson will go in the first im sure, but Ive never been to big on him. Hes very very raw, reminds me of Erik Flowers (when he was drafted) back in the day. He has the size, but he also benefitted from Moses on the other end.

He's also very similar to Schobel in his ability, while hes not bad against the run his speciality is the pass rush.

Im not saying he wont be a good player in fact i think he will eventually be a great player, He (imo) is just going to take a little time to develop at the pro-level. Personally I think he should have stayed for his senior season. Hes only 20 I believe.

He will need a very good combine imo to crack the top 15. But even still Anderson, Adams and maybe even Carriker will likely go ahead of him.

I think you underestimate Johnson's ability to play the run, I think he finishd 2nd in the SEC in TFL, behind Anderson.

Btw Pat, I already put him in one of mocks with the Bills taking him, you gotta check out the Scouting Zone and keep up with these things.

[Tatonka]

pat, you reference anderson from the bears as to what a great rookie DE can do.

he was drafted in the 5th round, i believe.

[HHURRICANE]

I would LOVE to have a talented, exciting DE over any other position on this team when it comes to what we "need".

Im sticking with him ESPECIALLY if we dont bring Kelsay.. Charles Johnson

Finally, some others that agree Kelsay should not be re-signed. I love DE as a pick. I hope it happens.

[jdbillsfan]

I gotta tell ya guys.. I been at least trying to study Free AGency and the draft as often as I can.

It's hard when it comes to the Bills though for two reasons.
1) Despite having nearly more cap room than any team in the league, how much Wilson is willing to spend is up in the air.
2) Last year's #8 draft choice showed that Levy and staff dont pay much attention to what other people say.

Though its too early to be able to stick by it, I've FINALLY come up with the player that I think the Bill will take #12 provided they don't sign a major guy via FA.

That guy is : Charles Johnson, DE (Georgia)

From everything I've read he is a good all around DE, and though he's been very low-key thus far he's climbing up draft boards, as evidenced by being the 13th overall player ranked on Kiper's board.

I really dont want Kelsay back as I think he's to one dimensional. And I REALLY think we need to improve our run defense in the front seven.
Im thinking at DT they will stick with the McCargo/WIlliams.Tripplett trio and sign a veteran big-guy/run stuffer in Free AGency. Anderson from Chicago last year proved what an impact a solid rookie DE can immediately have.

I don't think Jarrett fits our team in terms of character, I dont think they will take Levi Brown or Okoye either.. Branch and Anderson will be gone... Levi Brown may be gone and even if not, Lynch doesnt appear to be worth a #12 anymore... No LB or CB is worth the 12th pick

Makes me think the player is going to be Johnson, so it may be time to start studying him.


Good post. I thought he stood out in the Chick Fila bowl vs VA Tech, much more than Moses.

[Earthquake Enyart]

DE is a horrible pick. It's obviously going to be a CB.

[madness]

I believe OBD will make every valid attempt to resign Kelsay especially with the possibility of losing Hargrove through RFA. The LE positon had two fewer sacks and twice as many tackles as the RE position. This shows that not only did teams gameplan away from Schobel(53 tackles), but also both Kelsay(61 tackles) and Denney(54 tackles) stepped it up on their side.

Retaining both Kelsay and Hargrove's services would be more than ideal and would give us quality depth at DE so we can focus on tackling our other priorities. I just can't see us using #12 on a DE unless we lose both Kelsay and Hargrove.

[Devin]

I think you underestimate Johnson's ability to play the run, I think he finishd 2nd in the SEC in TFL, behind Anderson.

Btw Pat, I already put him in one of mocks with the Bills taking him, you gotta check out the Scouting Zone and keep up with these things.

Oh i dont think hes bad at all, and if we drafted him id be cautiously optimistic. I have no doubt he will eventually translate into a solid pro. I dont think hes bad against the run, its just not his strongest attribute.

Im always a little skeptical of multiple linemen from the same school being taken in the 1st round anyway. Johnson really should have stayed another year. Physically hes got great size and ability, but hes a work in progress.

[patmoran2006]

I believe OBD will make every valid attempt to resign Kelsay especially with the possibility of losing Hargrove through RFA. The LE positon had two fewer sacks and twice as many tackles as the RE position. This shows that not only did teams gameplan away from Schobel(53 tackles), but also both Kelsay(61 tackles) and Denney(54 tackles) stepped it up on their side.

Retaining both Kelsay and Hargrove's services would be more than ideal and would give us quality depth at DE so we can focus on tackling our other priorities. I just can't see us using #12 on a DE unless we lose both Kelsay and Hargrove.
Ok, maybe I'm not making my 'opinion' clear enough.. though I'm sure it's not shared by everyone.

I do not want Kelsay back and resigned. The reason for that is I think he's as much a part of the problem as he is the solution.

He's a pretty good pass rusher, I won't take that from him. At times he looks very good. But he's inconsistent, and at BEST he is mediocre against the run. Why would we want to bring him back? Because he's arleady been here?
You see, to me anyway this is the biggest problem with the Bills playoff drought and will continue to be unless Levy fixes it. This team has never lacked at the skill (QB, RB, WR, DB, LB) positions.. Its in the trenches that they get dominated.

Schobel is a stud on defense.. Peters is the same on offense. On each side however, they are SURROUNDED by a collection of average-at-best players. That has to changed.


I'm for spending big money at guard because it should dramatically help our run blocking. I'm all for drafting a guy like Johnson because it should soon dramatically improve our run defense.
Guys like Kelsay, Hargrove, Gandy, Preston etc are average players.. We have to be better than average in the trenches if we want to start winning.
If I'm marv levy, except for spending bigger money on a quality LB to replace Fletcher, I would spend 80% of whatever cap money Wilson allows me to spend on the lines, and probably use all of my first day draft picks on them as well.

Im tired of "average linemen" and Schobel and Peters aside, we have a collection of them.

[patmoran2006]

pat, you reference anderson from the bears as to what a great rookie DE can do.

he was drafted in the 5th round, i believe.
Yep.. not saying one person is the answer either. Put it this way, if I'm Levy Id have a hard time not picking a linemen on either side of the ball with EVERY first day pick. This team has a collection of "ok" linemen, and needs to find more Peters' or Schobel's.. Until then, I dont care who is at WR and CB and everywhere else, they aint contending.

FA--d raft.. I dont care. But guys like Kelsay and Preston and Gandy and possibly Pennington aint gonna cut it for a playoff run.

[Jeff1220]

I'm not posting this in regards to any particular player, but I don't think that because Marv, TM and DJ chose a surprise #1 last year, who didn't mesh with what the pundits had drawn up, means they'll do that every year. Whitner was their guy and they took him. It doesn't mean that a guy who the draft gurus think they'll take isn't the guy they'll want. Therefor, I don't think we can figure that they won't take a guy because he's the popular consensus #12 pick.

[HHURRICANE]

I believe OBD will make every valid attempt to resign Kelsay especially with the possibility of losing Hargrove through RFA. The LE positon had two fewer sacks and twice as many tackles as the RE position. This shows that not only did teams gameplan away from Schobel(53 tackles), but also both Kelsay(61 tackles) and Denney(54 tackles) stepped it up on their side.

Retaining both Kelsay and Hargrove's services would be more than ideal and would give us quality depth at DE so we can focus on tackling our other priorities. I just can't see us using #12 on a DE unless we lose both Kelsay and Hargrove.

Who said we were letting Hargrove walk? We'll match any offer he gets.

[patmoran2006]

Hargrove and Denney are quality depth, and in the kind of defense we play they will get their fair share of reps..

But I dont think either of them are starters.. I want an improvement on the other end of Schobel starting.. I'd love to get Grant (Saints) but I dont think they will let him go.

I really think Charles Johnson would be an excellent draft pick.

[patmoran2006]

BTW, Rumors are swirling Carolina is going to release their DE, Rucker.. I wonder what market value he'd command.. He's 50x better than Kelsay when healthy.

[BILLSROCK1212]

i doubt we draft Johnson....i think Marshawn Lynch is became a pretty big possibility lately

[patmoran2006]

Who knows who the Bills will take.. But I'd almost be willing to bet its betwen Branch, Okoye, Brown or Johnson.> They are taking SOMEONE on the line, just don't know what side yet--depending on who is on the board.

No WR other than Calvin Johnson or RB other than Pederson I particularly want, no LB's or CBs are worth that high of a pick, nor TE..

Lynch is the only non big body I could see us possibly taking, but I really doubt it.

[Devin]

Who knows who the Bills will take.. But I'd almost be willing to bet its betwen Branch, Okoye, Brown or Johnson.> They are taking SOMEONE on the line, just don't know what side yet--depending on who is on the board.

No WR other than Calvin Johnson or RB other than Pederson I particularly want, no LB's or CBs are worth that high of a pick, nor TE..

Lynch is the only non big body I could see us possibly taking, but I really doubt it.

If Branch or by some miracle Anderson fell.....sure. At the moment I have Carriker pretty high on the list, more so then Johnson.

Willis would certainly not be a bad pick there, and while its not really a need Lynch id give a good look to.

[TigerJ]

I've started to think maybe Carriker could be the guy. Carriker was a beast at the Senior Bowl. He has enough athleticism and size to play anywhere on the defensive line, and according to those who know better than me he's got great hand technique for shedding blocks

[Nighthawk]

If a stud DE is there when the Bills pick, then I would love to see them take him. I'm tired of watching this team with one good DE...it's time to balance out the line!

[alohabillsfan]

Yes,

I got the first round pick down to CB, RB, DT, OT,and LB, with outside chances of WR, TE, DE, G, C and virtually zero percent chance of FB, QB or S and absolutly no fu@king chance of a K/P.

[DraftBoy]

I think Round 1 and 2 is going like this;

Round 1: DE/LB
Round 2: LB/DE

Ideally;
Round 1: Anderson, Adams, Carriker, Johnson, Willis, Moses
Round 2: Siler, Pols

[Devin]

I think Round 1 and 2 is going like this;

Round 1: DE/LB
Round 2: LB/DE

Ideally;
Round 1: Anderson, Adams, Carriker, Johnson, Willis, Moses
Round 2: Siler, Pols

Agree completley.

[patmoran2006]

I know more about Johnson than Carriker at this point.

Is CArriker good at stopping the run, or he is a younger Kelsay?

[Nighthawk]

I don't want Carriker...another Kelsey..NO!

[Devin]

I know more about Johnson than Carriker at this point.

Is CArriker good at stopping the run, or he is a younger Kelsay?

Carriker is a monster. 6-6 290, can play almost anywhere on the DL. Very strong and fast, hes climbing fast. Not only a solid pass rusher but more importanly is ridiculously strong and holds up very well against the run. Even as big as he is he's very quick off the snap, and while he falls into the "high motor" category (yes he's white) he brings it every play.

He is very well balanced and will not get moved around much. Plus he will force a lot of double teams opening up some of our other under-achievers hopefully.

[Devin]

He is bigger, stronger and faster then Kelsay. Really no comparison, completley diff player.

[DraftBoy]

I know more about Johnson than Carriker at this point.

Is CArriker good at stopping the run, or he is a younger Kelsay?


Carriker has THE BEST technique of any DE in the draft.

He is not another Kelsay, but I wont dive in, because Devin did a good job characterizing his talents.

[Devin]

Carriker has THE BEST technique of any DE in the draft.

He is not another Kelsay, but I wont dive in, because Devin did a good job characterizing his talents.

Yeah watching film on him the thing that strikes me is not only how quick he is for his size but his hand movement and how he really jolts olinemen back.

I am anxious to watch him at the combine.

[DraftBoy]

I don't want Carriker...another Kelsey..NO!


Sorry but this is not correct, Kelsay was arguably not even the best player on Nebraska's DL that year, let alone his defense.

Carriker is unquestionably the best defensive player on his team and is a team leader.

[patmoran2006]

well then Im settled..

I either want Johnson or Carriker..

DEFINITELY WITHOUT a question a DE.. Piss on Kelsay.. I want a run stopper and potential dominator on the other DE with Schobel.

We got three DT's now, find a big body rotational run stopper in FA for mid level price..

[DraftBoy]

Yeah watching film on him the thing that strikes me is not only how quick he is for his size but his hand movement and how he really jolts olinemen back.

I am anxious to watch him at the combine.

Watch his feet placement, always one balance, very tough to jolt at the point of attack, he gets under his blockers and drives them back, plus with his footwork he can be a dominating force.

[Devin]

well then Im settled..

I either want Johnson or Carriker..

DEFINITELY WITHOUT a question a DE.. Piss on Kelsay.. I want a run stopper and potential dominator on the other DE with Schobel.

We got three DT's now, find a big body rotational run stopper in FA for mid level price..

The most appealing thing to me about Carriker is that I think a guy with his size and strength not only is a force in his own right but more importantly allows everyone else to make more plays. And his technique/coachability are as high as they come.

As far as DE's go Anderson, Carriker, Johnson are probably my top 3. Adams would be a better DE per say but not for us, as hes essentially the same type of DE as Schobel.

[Tatonka]

Yep.. not saying one person is the answer either. Put it this way, if I'm Levy Id have a hard time not picking a linemen on either side of the ball with EVERY first day pick. This team has a collection of "ok" linemen, and needs to find more Peters' or Schobel's.. Until then, I dont care who is at WR and CB and everywhere else, they aint contending.

FA--d raft.. I dont care. But guys like Kelsay and Preston and Gandy and possibly Pennington aint gonna cut it for a playoff run.

I hear what your saying.. but i dont understand your thought process.

your already calling butler a good back up and ready to draft more guys at his spot without knowing if he can play.. if we take a DE in this years draft and he doesnt make an impact as a rookie, are you going to call for more draft picks to be spent the following year?

i guess my point is, it just doesnt seem like you want to give anyone time to develope. perform now or replace them.

that attitude is understandable, but i wouldnt expect the same thought process from levy and company, so i hope your not disappointed, because i am willing to bet that they are putting alot more stock in guys like merz and butler on the OL and Williams and McCargo on the DL, as well as Hargrove, who they clearly like, or they would not have traded for him.

[DraftBoy]

I hear what your saying.. but i dont understand your thought process.

your already calling butler a good back up and ready to draft more guys at his spot without knowing if he can play.. if we take a DE in this years draft and he doesnt make an impact as a rookie, are you going to call for more draft picks to be spent the following year?

i guess my point is, it just doesnt seem like you want to give anyone time to develope. perform now or replace them.

that attitude is understandable, but i wouldnt expect the same thought process from levy and company, so i hope your not disappointed, because i am willing to bet that they are putting alot more stock in guys like merz and butler on the OL and Williams and McCargo on the DL, as well as Hargrove, who they clearly like, or they would not have traded for him.

Good points. I think giving Merz, Butler, Pennington, and McCargo another year of play time will lead to good results. I also think that we dealt for Hargrove for both his versatility and pass rush ability. Not necessarily to be a full time starter.

[DraftBoy]

So by my count we have 3 now for the DE in Round 1 Bandwagon??

Me
Devin
PM

[Devin]

Personally im stickin with my prediction that "Mad Merz" is gonna be a starter at some point. :jam:

[Throne Logic]

Yep.. not saying one person is the answer either. Put it this way, if I'm Levy Id have a hard time not picking a linemen on either side of the ball with EVERY first day pick. This team has a collection of "ok" linemen, and needs to find more Peters' or Schobel's..

As you said, the OL and DL are the most important units on the field. Great lines will make mediocre skill players look good and good players pro-bowlers. How do the Pats manage to keep on plugging in skill players all over the place and still find success? Sure, they have a good system. That good system relies on consistant line play on both sides of the ball.

That said, I don't like drafting OL in Round 1. Too many bust stories coupled with the multitude of success stories for latter round picks. In general, every OL you pick is going to take a couple years to develop into an all around good player. Heck, Peters wasn't even drafted not to mention didn't play tackle before becoming a pro. Heck, I'd consider trading the #12 overall for a proven difference maker on either OL or DL, but I wouldn't draft one (I do realize that no team is dumb enough to make this trade - well, there's always the Raiders . . .).

DE is somewhat better than OL, but not much. Better than DL. If it were not for Erik Flowers, I might be on board with DE in Round 1.

I believe in using FA to build your lines with proven talent. Use the day 2 picks to find your OL and DL players to develop who will serve as backups their first year or two and maybe into good players down the road. Use the Day 1 picks on skill players who tend to have a better success rate if drafted intelligently and not for their "upside" or popularity. Or even worse, the "special" players like Vick. Yeah, Mike Vick can be pretty exciting, but take a look at how difficult it has been for Atlanta to build a consistantly performing team around Vick. His unpredictable talent is both their blessing and their curse. San Diego made a very smart decision by passing up on him and going with more stable picks (who just happened to turn into superstars, but that's a bit extreme for the point I'm trying to make).

I like Marv's approach. Draft smart, good character players who have solid football skills at their position. Worst case, you'll at least get a player who tries their best and doesn't become a major off-field distraction.

I'm betting on WR or a trade in Round 1.

[TigerJ]

I can only go by what others have been writing about Carriker. I get the impression that he is solid versus he run. He is definitely not a Chris Kelsay clone. He is much bigger at 292 to 295 lbs. depending on who's report your looking at, and is supposed to be very strong and quite athletic for his size. He doesn't have the explosiveness that you like in a top defensive end, but makes up for it in his strength and ability to bull rush and take on blockers.

[Tatonka]

BTW, Rumors are swirling Carolina is going to release their DE, Rucker.. I wonder what market value he'd command.. He's 50x better than Kelsay when healthy.

i believe he is a DT. and he would be huge here.

[Devin]

Rucker is a DE. Jenkins and Kemo are thier DT's arent they?

[The Spaz]

Rucker is a DE. Jenkins and Kemo are thier DT's arent they?

Correct.

[Tatonka]

Rucker is a DE. Jenkins and Kemo are thier DT's arent they?

ah.. your right.. i was thinking of jenkins.