Raiding Indy

[patmoran2006]

Since Marv Levy and apparently half of you have a hard on for the Indy Colts and their organization, I'm really starting to hope that we take advantage of their weak cap situation and raid their roster a little bit in FA.

I only think the Bills need to make three FA signings.. Let me take that back..Three FA signings that MATTER.. Matt Bowens and Craig Nall signings don't count.
If they were able to land Cato June and Nick Harper, I'd be very satisfied with them as replacements for Clements and Fletcher. Nate is better than Harper but he's used to the cover two and would do well. June is better than Fletcher and also knows the system. This would enable to the move for Crowell to the middle and Spikes/Ellison on other side.

These two guys will cost some money, especially June but I dont think either contract would be ridiculous, especially Harper.

That leaves one free agent guard to sign.. Steinbach will be too expensive and Dielman probably would be too. Dockery (Wash) would be a GREAT signing IMO.

Then bring back Gandy for the other guard spot, piss on Kelsay and I really dont care who else they resign after that..

Then you can go into the draft without NEEDING to replace nate or fletcher.. YOu got the guard you know you needed.

And that would enable us to draft a really solid DT (Okoye, Branch) or a DE (Johnson, CArriker).. You could even take a shot at Lynch at RB (though I think that would be stupid and plus Marv won't do that).

Your looking at three free agent signings there (june, harper, dockery), and a first round pick on the DL.

That's about as good an offseason as a bills fan could REALISTICALLY hope for.

[Bling]

Do you go home, and just think about football 24/7?

[YardRat]

What do you think it would cost to sign June, Harper, and Dockery...specifically in 'roster' bonuses and first-year number?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Since Marv Levy and apparently half of you have a hard on for the Indy Colts and their organization, I'm really starting to hope that we take advantage of their weak cap situation and raid their roster a little bit in FA.

I only think the Bills need to make three FA signings.. Let me take that back..Three FA signings that MATTER.. Matt Bowens and Craig Nall signings don't count.
If they were able to land Cato June and Nick Harper, I'd be very satisfied with them as replacements for Clements and Fletcher. Nate is better than Harper but he's used to the cover two and would do well. June is better than Fletcher and also knows the system. This would enable to the move for Crowell to the middle and Spikes/Ellison on other side.

These two guys will cost some money, especially June but I dont think either contract would be ridiculous, especially Harper.

That leaves one free agent guard to sign.. Steinbach will be too expensive and Dielman probably would be too. Dockery (Wash) would be a GREAT signing IMO.

Then bring back Gandy for the other guard spot, piss on Kelsay and I really dont care who else they resign after that..

Then you can go into the draft without NEEDING to replace nate or fletcher.. YOu got the guard you know you needed.

And that would enable us to draft a really solid DT (Okoye, Branch) or a DE (Johnson, CArriker).. You could even take a shot at Lynch at RB (though I think that would be stupid and plus Marv won't do that).

Your looking at three free agent signings there (june, harper, dockery), and a first round pick on the DL.

That's about as good an offseason as a bills fan could REALISTICALLY hope for.
That would be great IMO. I would be more than happy if this or something to this affect played out.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Other than Freeney or Bob Sanders, I don't want anybody from that POS Colt defense.

[Mudflap1]

I agree, this is what I thought they'd do all along. Hopefully they follow through and don't go the cheaper, less active route.

Jon

[Mr. Miyagi]

This is the first time I agree with patmoran. On anything. :miyagi:

[Scumbag College]

I loved the way Ellison played last year. He was around the ball all the time and really made some big plays. Crowell really came on last year at OLB before his injury and played well too. I think we're set at OLB. I'm intrigued with the thought of possibly moving Spikes to MLB. I think he has the right size for the position, and although he's lost a step and might be of average speed for a OLB, he might be a right fit at MLB for the Tampa 2.

I would like Harper here if it's possible. He could step in for Clements right away. If the Bills resign Thomas as a Nickel-Dime back, then they are set at CB with Youboty at Nickel-Dime and McGee starting.

If Gandy isn't resigned, then there are lots of problems on the O-Line. Coupled with the problems on the DLine as well, I wouldn't be surprised if all of the Day 1 picks aren't used on the Lines if not addressed in FA.

[Saratoga Slim]

Since Marv Levy and apparently half of you have a hard on for the Indy Colts and their organization, I'm really starting to hope that we take advantage of their weak cap situation and raid their roster a little bit in FA.

I only think the Bills need to make three FA signings.. Let me take that back..Three FA signings that MATTER.. Matt Bowens and Craig Nall signings don't count.
If they were able to land Cato June and Nick Harper, I'd be very satisfied with them as replacements for Clements and Fletcher. Nate is better than Harper but he's used to the cover two and would do well. June is better than Fletcher and also knows the system. This would enable to the move for Crowell to the middle and Spikes/Ellison on other side.

These two guys will cost some money, especially June but I dont think either contract would be ridiculous, especially Harper.

That leaves one free agent guard to sign.. Steinbach will be too expensive and Dielman probably would be too. Dockery (Wash) would be a GREAT signing IMO.

Then bring back Gandy for the other guard spot, piss on Kelsay and I really dont care who else they resign after that..

Then you can go into the draft without NEEDING to replace nate or fletcher.. YOu got the guard you know you needed.

And that would enable us to draft a really solid DT (Okoye, Branch) or a DE (Johnson, CArriker).. You could even take a shot at Lynch at RB (though I think that would be stupid and plus Marv won't do that).

Your looking at three free agent signings there (june, harper, dockery), and a first round pick on the DL.

That's about as good an offseason as a bills fan could REALISTICALLY hope for.

I would be very happy with that offseason.

[patmoran2006]

I think some people on here are SERIOUSLY overlooking the significance of that big attendance drop at the end of last season,a nd that was on a little mini playoff run.

I will accept we wont sign Steinbach or Clements or most of the "huge" names. But if Wilson goes as cheap as IM thinking he's going to, this team BETTER win some games early or last season's attendance problem will be NOTHING compared to what happens this time..

[DraftBoy]

Forget June or Harper, lets sign their OG's and call it a day

[patmoran2006]

Look, I'll buy into at least some of Marv's press conference last week. I accept the fact that we're not going to get into bidding wars for guys like Steinbach, Clements, Freeney (if not already tagged).. Even Dielman. A gigantic contract like that could indeed "mortgage" the future. In that regards, I grudgingly have to agree with Marv and some of you posters.
However, don't give me that bull**** that we can't go out and sign THREE free agents in Harper, June and Dockery. We CAN afford it.

A) We DO have more than enough cap room to sign three decent/good free agents

B) ESPECIALLY since Levy will resign almost every free agent we have EXCEPT for the two who are the best (and most expensive)

What we CAN'T afford to do is not make a concerted effort to improve this team.

In all due respect, I dont know what planet at least a select few of you are from, but with rising ticket prices, growing frustration from alot of fans and a DROPPING ticket fan base, the only thing this team really cant afford is not be a playoff contender.

as I've stated several times since season's end; there are NO more excuses. The Young QB has grown-- there are good young players around him-- the coaching staff has had a full year to grow together now-- and the GM isn't a rookie anymore.

If anybody and I mean ANYBODY on this board tells me the 2007 Bills will be BETTER on defense with Ellison and YOuboty instead of Clements and Fletcher, you are seriously out of your mind... Maybe in a couple of years those guys will become stars, but the Bills are mortgaging the future with their FANs more than their wallets should they replace our stars with those young kids and they struggle in 2007.

How many consecutive losing and/or non playoff seasons does Wilson think he can get away with before the fans get sick of the losing product?
Put it this way, Last season was just a SMALL TASTE of attendance problems that will occur should more fans lose excitement over this team.. And that was in the midst of a PLAYOFF RUN.. What do you think is going to happen if we start 5-6 MORE ROOKIES and "who cares" FA's.. You think fans are going to come close to selling out through another 5-7 win season?? Umm, no.. Not after Wilson lets two of his most popular players walk and replaces them with what the MAJORITY of fans will consider CHEAP replacements..

The botom line is this team CAN afford a trio of June, Harper and Dockery.. and if they got them and another good draft they become legit CONTENDERS.. I didnt provide a long list of BIG named signings.. I got three, and NONE are the most expensive at their positions, not even close.
If they dont contend this year and RALPH takes the cheap way out; you can bet that stadium will be 15-20 thousand short on Sundays.

[RockStar36]

June will command more money because Briggs got FRANCHISED. Same thing WITH Clements/Samuel. Both would BE good FA signings but you have TO remember THAT there are 31 other NFL teams that participate IN FA and want TO sign THESE guys TOO.

[YardRat]

C'mon pat...throw some realistice contract numbers out here so we can determine how do-able it is.

[patmoran2006]

Well most of those teams wont have the CAP ROOM..

We do.. Its a question on what Wilson is willing to pay for players to help us contend.. OR does he think the fans are stupid enough to lose our top two FA's and replace them with no-names or rookies and expect fans to rush to the ticket window.?

June may or may not be in our price range, and if we ATTEMPT to make a move on him and fail (like we did with Pickett last season) nobody has a reason to get upset.. But to not make a move for 2-3 impact FA's (and im not talking the most expensive ones necessarily) is just a CHEAP ASS way out.

[RockStar36]

Maybe everyone SHOULD relax until FA starts. People SEEM to THINK that WILSON is going TO be cheap. Let's wait AND see.

[YardRat]

According to Draftdaddy, Dockery is the #3 UFA at guard, June is #3 at OLB, and Harper isn't listed as top ten (he's behind K.Thomas of Buffalo, as a matter of) so let's call him #11.

Last year, according to Scout.com, McGinest was the #3 OLB, Manuwai was #3 guard, and Jamar Fletcher was the #11 CB.

Anybody know what these guys contract #'s were last year?

[patmoran2006]

First off, unless the Bills loser mentality over recent years has rubbed off on some posters, why should the Bills HAVE to outbid all the other teams for players all the time? This franchise is stable with a HOF running the show. They won 7 games last year and are perceived as a team on the rise.

If the money is on par with another offer then unlike the past two years, a free agent may WANT to come play for the Bills.

As far as June, Harper and Dockery. I dont know a ton of caponomics nor do I profess to. What I do know is that Cleveland last year (another small market team) signed a ton of players without a huge immediate cap cluster****.. Now personally I think those signings (outside of Bentley) all sucked and they will severly pay for that in the years to come.. (and I DONT THINK THE BILLS SHOULD Have that approach towards FA either)

I know enough to know that they COULD AFFORD those three, its a question if they are willing to pay for it.

By looking at the FA List, I'd say June will be among the top 3-4 LB's paid in the market, Harper will be among the top 3-5 paid CBs (which will be a real thin market) and Dockery, will be the third highest paid guard, but a BIG DROPOFF from what Steinbach or Dielman will get.

Also take note, there aren't going to be a lot of teams as active in FA as they've been in recent years. Many teams have resigned their own top guys (we're letting Clements and Fletch walk so dont even go there and say we are too)and even the bigger spending teams are in bigger cap trouble than normal.

I would expect SF to be awful active in FA..

[patmoran2006]

Maybe everyone SHOULD relax until FA starts. People SEEM to THINK that WILSON is going TO be cheap. Let's wait AND see.

People KNOW Wilson is going to be cheap.. that's a given.

Its a question of Bills fans defending it saying we're better off letting Youboty and Ellison move into the starting lineup and continuing to develop young draft picks as hopeful future stars.. or Bills fans saying **** this we ahve a ton of cap room, let our two biggest players walk and sign garbage in the FA market for a bargain basement price.

Probably isn't a right or wrong- well at least that is a matter of opinion..

But this is one thing I WILL BET ON.. This team doesn't make an effort to bring in some guys to immediately help, this team BETTER win or attendance is going to get ugly.

I dont know how many of you guys live in Buffalo, but I do, and this is a FACT; like it or not, the bills are #2 in this town with sports.. Whether its right or its fair; this has become Sabres town..

and that stupid press conference sure as hell aint making anybody run to the Ticket office at the Ralph.

[Devin]

Buffalo will probably make a big run at 1 premier player, likely on the OL.

I think you will see a 2nd tier guy at CB.

[YardRat]

McGinest signed a three year deal for 12mil, 6mil gauranteed. I can't find anything on Fletcher and Manuwai yet.

If you think Harper is #3, we should use Charles Woodsen instead of Fletcher.

[patmoran2006]

Harper is a second tier guy.. its Clements and then everybody else at FA corner.

Dont see anyone on the OL thats a premier guy other than Steinbach.. I would love Steinbach but I dont even think about it cause I know its not happening..

I do THINK Guard is the one spot Marv is DEFINITELY going to spend on in FA.. Just not sure who or how much..

but he's not stupid enough to go to camp with a combo of Gandy, Merz, Butler, reyes, villariall and preston next season and expect to be taken as a serious playoff team.

[Devin]

but he's not stupid enough to go to camp with a combo of Gandy, Merz, Butler, reyes, villariall and preston next season and expect to be taken as a serious playoff team.

Don't sleep on Merz!

[patmoran2006]

if He's that good Merz can beat out Gandy...

Marv has already mastered the art of signing someone to a starter contract and them ending up as a backup. Add one more after he signs Gandy and then gets beat out by Merz.

[Devin]

:jam:

[YardRat]

Woodson got 52mil over 7 years. Can't find the signing bonus, though.

[patmoran2006]

nobody is paying Harper half of what Woodson got.. not even half.

[Devin]

McGee is 5-9, Harper is 5-10.

:ill:

Harper isnt even a stop gap for 1 season.

[Ickybaluky]

Woodson's contract was a lot of fluff. His dollars may be that high, but he got a very backloaded deal because he has been a stiff for years.

Indy guaranteed Peyton Manning's $10M roster bonus and Robert Mathis' $3.5M roster bonus. By converting them to signing bonus they spread the money over the length of those deals and cleared about $11.5M in cap room. They reportedly now have about $14.8M in cap room, but franchising Freeney will take a good chunk of that.

They probably will restructure a few more deals to clear room, and may re-sign a few of their pending FA. I think they would like to keep the bulk of their team together the next few years while they make a run, before having to blow the thing up.

[Philagape]

I really LIKE how people here CAPITALIZE some words in their POSTS. It makes their POSTS so much COOLER and makes them sound KNOWLEDGABLE. :trance:

[YardRat]

Woodson's contract was a lot of fluff. His dollars may be that high, but he got a very backloaded deal because he has been a stiff for years.

Indy guaranteed Peyton Manning's $10M roster bonus and Robert Mathis' $3.5M roster bonus. By converting them to signing bonus they spread the money over the length of those deals and cleared about $11.5M in cap room. They reportedly now have about $14.8M in cap room, but franchising Freeney will take a good chunk of that.

They probably will restructure a few more deals to clear room, and may re-sign a few of their pending FA. I think they would like to keep the bulk of their team together the next few years while they make a run, before having to blow the thing up.

Hey NE...Have you got anything on Woodson's signing bonus or Manuwai's contract?

[Luisito23]

I really LIKE how people here CAPITALIZE some words in their POSTS. It makes their POSTS so much COOLER and makes them sound KNOWLEDGABLE. :trance:


GRACIAS!!!!.....




GO BILLS!!!!!

[TigerJ]

That would be a very reasonable strategy for the Bills to pursue.

[jamze132]

I think just about any NFL team can sign whoever they want if the owner wants to pay them. For example, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, The Redskins could sign Clements for 5 years at $25 mil with a signing bonus of $45 mil. I don;t think thayt bonus money counts towards the cap does it? If that were the case, we would be outbid for everyone. Now, I am not sure if this is correct, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I can take contructive criticism.

[RockStar36]

I think just about any NFL team can sign whoever they want if the owner wants to pay them. For example, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, The Redskins could sign Clements for 5 years at $25 mil with a signing bonus of $45 mil. I don;t think thayt bonus money counts towards the cap does it? If that were the case, we would be outbid for everyone. Now, I am not sure if this is correct, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I can take contructive criticism.

That's what I thought but I'm not 100% on it.

[patmoran2006]

It does count towards the cap.. Its just spread out over the length..

IE- If nate signed a contract for five years with Washington where the bonus was $20 million- then 4 million per year would go against cap (not counting his salary).

And if for some reason he was cut after the second year-- the rest would be an immediate cap hit.

[RockStar36]

Ah, learn something new everyday. :up:

[Ickybaluky]

I think just about any NFL team can sign whoever they want if the owner wants to pay them. For example, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, The Redskins could sign Clements for 5 years at $25 mil with a signing bonus of $45 mil. I don;t think thayt bonus money counts towards the cap does it? If that were the case, we would be outbid for everyone. Now, I am not sure if this is correct, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I can take contructive criticism.

Bonus money is counted toward the cap, but it is spread over the life of the contract.

Everything counts against the cap. The only thing the bonus money does is allow you to push more of the money into the future. It is like a credit card.

[jamze132]

Bonus money is counted toward the cap, but it is spread over the life of the contract.

Everything counts against the cap. The only thing the bonus money does is allow you to push more of the money into the future. It is like a credit card.
Oh... Thanks!

[Night Train]

Don't sleep on Merz!

What about Serta ?


Thanks. I'm here all week. Try the veal.

[oak tree 12]

Since Marv Levy and apparently half of you have a hard on for the Indy Colts and their organization, I'm really starting to hope that we take advantage of their weak cap situation and raid their roster a little bit in FA.

I only think the Bills need to make three FA signings.. Let me take that back..Three FA signings that MATTER.. Matt Bowens and Craig Nall signings don't count.
If they were able to land Cato June and Nick Harper, I'd be very satisfied with them as replacements for Clements and Fletcher. Nate is better than Harper but he's used to the cover two and would do well. June is better than Fletcher and also knows the system. This would enable to the move for Crowell to the middle and Spikes/Ellison on other side.

These two guys will cost some money, especially June but I dont think either contract would be ridiculous, especially Harper.

That leaves one free agent guard to sign.. Steinbach will be too expensive and Dielman probably would be too. Dockery (Wash) would be a GREAT signing IMO.

Then bring back Gandy for the other guard spot, piss on Kelsay and I really dont care who else they resign after that..

Then you can go into the draft without NEEDING to replace nate or fletcher.. YOu got the guard you know you needed.

And that would enable us to draft a really solid DT (Okoye, Branch) or a DE (Johnson, CArriker).. You could even take a shot at Lynch at RB (though I think that would be stupid and plus Marv won't do that).

Your looking at three free agent signings there (june, harper, dockery), and a first round pick on the DL.

That's about as good an offseason as a bills fan could REALISTICALLY hope for.

you have it backwards,piss on gandy keep kelsey. mark my words we will have 2 new guards starting this year,if we dont were in trouble again,its time to finally address the o/line and i think marv and DJ realize it!

[patmoran2006]

well then piss on both of them, because I dont want Kelsay back either.

Ironic (and sad) thing.. Is at the end of the FA period, our biggest FA signing is probably going to be bringing back Kelsay.. That's f'n pathetic if that holds true

[ublinkwescore]

Since Marv Levy and apparently half of you have a hard on for the Indy Colts and their organization, I'm really starting to hope that we take advantage of their weak cap situation and raid their roster a little bit in FA.

I only think the Bills need to make three FA signings.. Let me take that back..Three FA signings that MATTER.. Matt Bowens and Craig Nall signings don't count.
If they were able to land Cato June and Nick Harper, I'd be very satisfied with them as replacements for Clements and Fletcher. Nate is better than Harper but he's used to the cover two and would do well. June is better than Fletcher and also knows the system. This would enable to the move for Crowell to the middle and Spikes/Ellison on other side.

These two guys will cost some money, especially June but I dont think either contract would be ridiculous, especially Harper.

That leaves one free agent guard to sign.. Steinbach will be too expensive and Dielman probably would be too. Dockery (Wash) would be a GREAT signing IMO.

Then bring back Gandy for the other guard spot, piss on Kelsay and I really dont care who else they resign after that..

Then you can go into the draft without NEEDING to replace nate or fletcher.. YOu got the guard you know you needed.

And that would enable us to draft a really solid DT (Okoye, Branch) or a DE (Johnson, CArriker).. You could even take a shot at Lynch at RB (though I think that would be stupid and plus Marv won't do that).

Your looking at three free agent signings there (june, harper, dockery), and a first round pick on the DL.

That's about as good an offseason as a bills fan could REALISTICALLY hope for.

Weren't you on the Anti-Cato June bandwagon just a week or two ago???

[patmoran2006]

Never.. why would I not want a Pro Bowl quality OLB here?

[ublinkwescore]

Never.. why would I not want a Pro Bowl quality OLB here?

I thought I saw you saying you didn't want June here - I guess I was wrong - I'm too lazy to go back and look, and nor do I care - if you were on the anti-June bandwagon, I'm glad to see you've come around.

[patmoran2006]

This thread is titled "Raiding Indy".. meaning I think it would be great if we were able to somehow land June and Harper to replace Fletch and Nate.