Why did we give away a 5th for Hargrove?

[HHURRICANE]

Now that we re-signed Kelsay in desperation can someone explain to me why we brought Hargrove in?

[Romes]

Now that we re-signed Kelsay in desperation can someone explain to me why we brought Hargrove in?

Simple cause we only had Denney, Schobel and Kelsay at DE last season.

[BillsNick]

Dude. Enough already. Please.

[patmoran2006]

I'll give you the short version.

"We are a horribly run organization"

[HHURRICANE]

Simple cause we only had Denney, Schobel and Kelsay at DE last season.

He's a backup now?

[Michael82]

It's called depth. With our defense, you do a lot of rotating and Hargrove was a big part of it. It helps keep everybody fresh. Oh, plus he kicked ass on Special Teams. He'll be back. :up:

[Michael82]

I'll give you the short version.

"We are a horribly run organization"
and I'm starting to wonder if your screen name is mispelled. :sigh:





:jk: :ontome:

[BillsNick]

I'll give you the short version.

"We are a horribly run organization"

Nice Pat. Another "great" post. :cynic:

[HHURRICANE]

Dude. Enough already. Please.

It's a serious question. I doubt Hargrove thinks he came in to be the backup.

[patmoran2006]

Ryan Denney had more sacks than Kelsay last year, yet Kelsay gets a contract that will average more than 3x Denney's salary.

And as for Hargrove, many think that with more playing time at worst he'd be as good as either, and sure as hell wouldnt cost $6 million per year.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Depth we have 4 solid D ends.

[Romes]

He's a backup now?

we need back ups.

[Dr. Lecter]

Hargrove also plays tackle.

[HHURRICANE]

It's called depth. We our defense, you do a lot of rotating and Hargrove was a big part of it. It helps keep everybody fresh. Oh, plus he kicked ass on Special Teams. He'll be back. :up:

Mikey, I know you and I disagree a little on Kelsay. I like Hargrove a lot but I don't see him as a backup.

[gr8slayer]

Who says Hargrove won't be back next season? IT IS MOTHER ****ING FEBRUARY YOU PEA BRAINED PEOPLE. Lots of things can happen from now to the start of the season. We have a front office that made our record better last year and almost got us into the play-offs. Our biggest question mark (JP) is now one of our smaller question marks.

Untill our record is worse than it was this season who the **** cares what we do or how we do it. As long as we keep getting better Marv can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, with whoever he wants.

[Dr. Lecter]

I'll give you the short version.

"We are a horribly run organization"

Right.

[Michael82]

Hargrove also plays tackle.
EXACTLY!!! :up:

[patmoran2006]

Nice Pat. Another "great" post. :cynic:
Do you ever have a post that actually relates to a football discussion? Ever?

Or do you care more about your "rep"

99% of your posts seem to center around criticizing people who actually have the balls to be unhappy with the status-quo at OBD and not be happy about a totally STUPID signing.

[Michael82]

Mikey, I know you and I disagree a little on Kelsay. I like Hargrove a lot but I don't see him as a backup.
I don't see Kelsay as the starter either. I see them both getting equal time or maybe seeing Hargrove as DT more often.

[patmoran2006]

I don't see Kelsay as the starter either. I see them both getting equal time or maybe seeing Hargrove as DT more often.
if your right, then kelsay is the highest paid backup in NFL history

[gr8slayer]

if your right, then kelsay is the highest paid backup in NFL history
I think Drew Bledsoe still has him beat there. :)

[patmoran2006]

Right.
What is it then Lecter? What's your excuse now?

We're not a horribly run organization? Then why have we not been in the playoffs in seven years?

Why are we 21 games under .500 this decade? Why have we not had double digit wins in eight years?

Why were there not one, not two, not three but FOUR consecutive blackouts last season?

Why does a team like the New YOrk Jets, who were even worse than Buffalo last year (4-12) go from having the fourth pick in the draft to making the playoffs in ONE ****in season??

Why does a team like the New Orlean Saints, who picked SECOND in the draft last year, make the NFC championship game in ONE season?

easy.. they hire the right coaches.. They hire the right GM.. They draft the right players.. They sign the right players in FA. Most importantly, they are RUN better.

You and select others on here are nothing more than constant-non stop- EXCUSE makers.

You can hate on me.. You can call me a crybaby, but at the end of the day, unlike anything you guys say, every single statement I just made is 100% FACT, NOT opinion.

You want to blame it on Donahoe? Ummm.. If so, its a "horrible organizational" decision to hire him.. Williams? Mularkey? "horrible organizational decision".. Bledsoe? 'Horrible organizational decision"
Good teams and good organizations have down years.. Bad teams and "horribly run organizations" have bad DECADES.

Not opinion.. but fact.

[justasportsfan]

Nice Pat. Another "great" post. :cynic:


I think it's time I call him ICE . Same crap. They know better than MArv and have nothing to show for

[BillsNick]

Do you ever have a post that actually relates to a football discussion? Ever?

Or do you care more about your "rep"

99% of your posts seem to center around criticizing people who actually have the balls to be unhappy with the status-quo at OBD and not be happy about a totally STUPID signing.

No, I'm simply pointing out that you are a horrible poster. You say things like "this is a horribly run organization" which is clearly a rediculous statement. You are one of the people that have been *****ing about everything and talking smack about the organiztion.

Rep is actually a pretty good indication of what type of poster you are, and since you are in the red, and always have been, I would assume that people generally disagree with you on a large percentage of issues. I know I have seldom agreed with anything that you have posted.

[BillsNick]

I think it's time I call him ICE . Same crap. They know better than MArv and have nothing to show for

I know, it's unbelievable!

[HHURRICANE]

In fairness to Pat starting out the new season by announcing that we are going to be cheaper than other teams and than signing Wire, Anderson and Kelsay after the three of them got run over like bowling pins isn't instilling "faith" in the organization. I know it's early but the cynisim is justified after 7 crappy years.

[oak tree 12]

Now that we re-signed Kelsay in desperation can someone explain to me why we brought Hargrove in?

try the price was right,he's a young guality DE with a very good upside,he wont require alot of money and we are now set @ DE for at least 4 years!!!!!!!!!
and,oh yea we play our linemen in waves and both he and kelsey can both move inside on the pass rush!!!!!!

[Dr. Lecter]

You can hate on me.. You can call me a crybaby, but at the end of the day, unlike anything you guys say, every single statement I just made is 100% FACT, NOT opinion.
Not opinion.. but fact.
Another fact: Marv was just hired last year. What happened before that is not his fault, despite what you think. Some teams turn around in one year. Some take a couple of years. The usual method is a couple years.

TD was in hindsight was an horrible hire. He ran a bad organization. He messed up.

But I won't hold Marv responsible for his mistakes and the fact that Marv had to start with little to go on.

Fact is you said last year the Bills would be worse. And they were better. The organization, in the one year they were here improved the team.

Fact is, you are giving up before free agency even starts. Before the draft. Before TC.

Those are a many facts that should cut down on the panic mode.

[HHURRICANE]

try the price was right,he's a young guality DE with a very good upside

Our defintion of quality is different. I've been waiting 4 years for his upside.

[BillsNick]

Our defintion of quality is different. I've been waiting 4 years for his upside.

Marv signed him for a reason. Maybe this is the year for him. You can't say he has not improved every year, as well has Denney.

[patmoran2006]

Another fact: Marv was just hired last year. What happened before that is not his fault, despite what you think. Some teams turn around in one year. Some take a couple of years. The usual method is a couple years.

TD was in hindsight was an horrible hire. He ran a bad organization. He messed up.

But I won't hold Marv responsible for his mistakes and the fact that Marv had to start with little to go on.

Fact is you said last year the Bills would be worse. And they were better. The organization, in the one year they were here improved the team.

Fact is, you are giving up before free agency even starts. Before the draft. Before TC.

Those are a many facts that should cut down on the panic mode.
thank you for at least using FOOTBALL talk in your comeback.. While I still 100% disagree with you on the state of this organization, at least you unlike some other homers can keep the talk about FOOTBALL and not personal.

[patmoran2006]

No, I'm simply pointing out that you are a horrible poster. You say things like "this is a horribly run organization" which is clearly a rediculous statement. You are one of the people that have been *****ing about everything and talking smack about the organiztion.

Rep is actually a pretty good indication of what type of poster you are, and since you are in the red, and always have been, I would assume that people generally disagree with you on a large percentage of issues. I know I have seldom agreed with anything that you have posted.
i'm a horrible poster? Rep is an indication of what kind of poster you are? LOL, umm no.. Rep is an indication of how many "friends" you have on here, and how "hommerific" you are.

As for my horrible posting, I will repost this again.. What I say in here is not opinion,it is FACT. Instead of accusing me of being a crybaby, why not for once you step up and refute what I am saying in terms of FOOTBALL.. Thank you very much (and lastly for the record, I do not ***** about "everything". I was pleased with last year' draft, I loved the way Losman stepped up, Evans is one of the best 4 WR in football IMO, and I think Whitner is going tob e a PRo Bowler)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"What is it then Lecter? What's your excuse now?

We're not a horribly run organization? Then why have we not been in the playoffs in seven years?

Why are we 21 games under .500 this decade? Why have we not had double digit wins in eight years?

Why were there not one, not two, not three but FOUR consecutive blackouts last season?

Why does a team like the New YOrk Jets, who were even worse than Buffalo last year (4-12) go from having the fourth pick in the draft to making the playoffs in ONE ****in season??

Why does a team like the New Orlean Saints, who picked SECOND in the draft last year, make the NFC championship game in ONE season?

easy.. they hire the right coaches.. They hire the right GM.. They draft the right players.. They sign the right players in FA. Most importantly, they are RUN better.

You and select others on here are nothing more than constant-non stop- EXCUSE makers.

You can hate on me.. You can call me a crybaby, but at the end of the day, unlike anything you guys say, every single statement I just made is 100% FACT, NOT opinion.

You want to blame it on Donahoe? Ummm.. If so, its a "horrible organizational" decision to hire him.. Williams? Mularkey? "horrible organizational decision".. Bledsoe? 'Horrible organizational decision"
Good teams and good organizations have down years.. Bad teams and "horribly run organizations" have bad DECADES.

Not opinion.. but fact."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<!-- / message -->

[patmoran2006]

I think it's time I call him ICE . Same crap. They know better than MArv and have nothing to show for
Is that the best you can do? Come on, man.

Ya.. Im so much like Ice..... As you more than anyone know, I am BANNED from even talking to Ice on here. I spent last year around this time ripping apart nearly every assinine thing thread he started, which was based on nothign but opinion not fact... I fought with him everyday, was "suspended" (Twice) for fighting with him on here, and eventually the MOD's made it (and still til this day) have it so that I cannot see anything that he says on here, because they will know I will tear him up.

SO come with something better than that..

[justasportsfan]

We're not a horribly run organization? Then why have we not been in the playoffs in seven years?




In case you haven't noticed, Marv has only been here 1 year. Youre blaming him for the last seven years is desperation on your part to discredit him since he made your prediction of last years season WRONG!!!

I'm not saying he's the next Poilan but he at least deseverves the benefit of the doubt after all , the results on the field last surpassed your prediction ( I know, it hurts being wrong) . The jury is still out on MArv IMO and not what YOU and ICE think of him.

You make it seem that Marv is a Nazzi and that these moves he's making are his own without asking his coaches. :crazy:

[justasportsfan]

Is that the best you can do? Come on, man.

Ya.. Im so much like Ice..... As you more than anyone know, I am BANNED from even talking to Ice on here. I spent last year around this time ripping apart nearly every assinine thing thread he started, which was based on nothign but opinion not fact... I fought with him everyday, was "suspended" (Twice) for fighting with him on here, and eventually the MOD's made it (and still til this day) have it so that I cannot see anything that he says on here, because they will know I will tear him up.

SO come with something better than that.. who's talking about your being banned from talking to ICE? I'm talking about how you and he seem to know more than Marv . It's one thing to question his decisions, it's another thing to say he's clueless with an exclamation point.

[patmoran2006]

anybody thats not a homer on here and lashes out at the organization for what they perceive to be a stupid move(s) is accused of "knowing more than Marv'

My bad, I thought this was an opionated message board, not a ****ing SAT test

[alohabillsfan]

Moron was originally a scientific term, coined by psychologist Henry H. Goddard from a Greek word meaning "foolish" and used to describe a person with a genetically determined mental age between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale. It was also once applied to people with an IQ of 51-70 and was a step up from "imbecile" (IQ of 26-50) and two steps up from "idiot" (IQ of 0-25). The word moron, along with "******ed" and "feeble-minded" (among others), was once considered a valid descriptor in the psychological community, though these words have all now passed into common slang use, exclusively in a detrimental context... NUFF SAID!

[BillsNick]

i'm a horrible poster? Rep is an indication of what kind of poster you are? LOL, umm no.. Rep is an indication of how many "friends" you have on here, and how "hommerific" you are. Is that based on fact, Pat?

As for my horrible posting, I will repost this again.. What I say in here is not opinion,it is FACT. :rofl: you've got to be kidding! Instead of accusing me of being a crybaby, why not for once you step up and refute what I am saying in terms of FOOTBALL.. I have already done it once, and I don't need to repeat myself for you because you can't read. Thank you very much. Thank you very much (and lastly for the record, I do not ***** about "everything". I was pleased with last year' draft, I loved the way Losman stepped up, Evans is one of the best 4 WR in football IMO, and I think Whitner is going tob e a PRo Bowler) oddly enough, I agree with you here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

<!-- / message -->

So, Pat, when you post that this is a "Horribly run organization", is that based on FACT? Is it a fact that Kelsay sucks?

I think that your interpretation of what a "FACT" is, may be IN FACT, based on your opinions.

[Jeff1220]

You can hate on me.. You can call me a crybaby, but at the end of the day, unlike anything you guys say, every single statement I just made is 100% FACT, NOT opinion.

Not opinion.. but fact.

OMG, it is ICE.

[HHURRICANE]

Marv signed him for a reason. Maybe this is the year for him. You can't say he has not improved every year, as well has Denney.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=player colSpan=2># 90 Chris Kelsay</TD><TD align=right width=134 rowSpan=2>http://images.nfl.com/images/helmets/134x121/BUF.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/BUF)</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width=70>http://images.nfl.com/images/players/60x80/396007.jpg</TD><TD class=playerbio>Position: DE
Height: 6-4
Weight: 275
Born: 10/31/1979
College: Nebraska
NFL Experience: 4 </TD></TR><TR><TD align=right colSpan=3 height=16>http://images.nfl.com/images/teams/275x16/BUF.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/BUF)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=teamsbg><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=playerNavOn height=20> Career Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> Game Logs: </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 01 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2001) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 02 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2002) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 03 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2003) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 04 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2004) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 05 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2005) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 06 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2006) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> Situational Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/splits/2006) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> Team Roster (http://www.nfl.com/teams/rosters/BUF) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg0 align=left><TD class=bg0 colSpan=13>Defensive Stats</TD></TR><TR class=bg1 align=middle><TD>Year</TD><TD>Team</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>Total</TD><TD>Tkl</TD><TD>Ast</TD><TD>Sacks</TD><TD>Int</TD><TD>Yds</TD><TD>Avg</TD><TD>Lg</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>Pass Def</TD></TR><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2003</TD><TD align=left>Buffalo Bills</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>12.0</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=left>Buffalo Bills</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>37</TD><TD>22.0</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>4.5</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>3.0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD></TR><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=left>Buffalo Bills</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>44</TD><TD>25.0</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>2.5</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>17.0</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=left>Buffalo Bills</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>61</TD><TD>41.0</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>5.5</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>4</TD></TR><TR class=bg3 id=total_CAREER_DEFENSE vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD class=bg4 align=left>TOTAL</TD><TD class=bg4 align=left> </TD><TD class=bg4>64</TD><TD class=bg4>161</TD><TD class=bg4>100.0</TD><TD class=bg4>61</TD><TD class=bg4>12.5</TD><TD class=bg4>2</TD><TD class=bg4>20</TD><TD class=bg4>10.0</TD><TD class=bg4>17</TD><TD class=bg4>0</TD><TD class=bg4>8</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=13>http://images.commissioner.com/images/dot_clear.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
12.5 sacks in 4 years.

[HHURRICANE]

Hargrove is almost 4 years younger. I'll bet that if they start Hragrove at DE he can get more than 10 sacks in a season.

[BillsNick]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=player colSpan=2># 90 Chris Kelsay</TD><TD align=right width=134 rowSpan=2>http://images.nfl.com/images/helmets/134x121/BUF.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/BUF)</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width=70>http://images.nfl.com/images/players/60x80/396007.jpg</TD><TD class=playerbio>Position: DE
Height: 6-4
Weight: 275
Born: 10/31/1979
College: Nebraska
NFL Experience: 4
</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right colSpan=3 height=16>http://images.nfl.com/images/teams/275x16/BUF.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/BUF)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=teamsbg><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=playerNavOn height=20>Career Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20>Game Logs: </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20>01 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2001) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20>02 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2002) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20>03 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2003) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20>04 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2004) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20>05 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2005) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20>06 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/gamelogs/2006) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20>Situational Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396007/splits/2006) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20>Team Roster (http://www.nfl.com/teams/rosters/BUF) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg0 align=left><TD class=bg0 colSpan=13>Defensive Stats</TD></TR><TR class=bg1 align=middle><TD>Year</TD><TD>Team</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>Total</TD><TD>Tkl</TD><TD>Ast</TD><TD>Sacks</TD><TD>Int</TD><TD>Yds</TD><TD>Avg</TD><TD>Lg</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>Pass Def</TD></TR><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2003</TD><TD align=left>Buffalo Bills</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>12.0</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD align=left>Buffalo Bills</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>37</TD><TD>22.0</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>4.5</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>3.0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD></TR><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD align=left>Buffalo Bills</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>44</TD><TD>25.0</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>2.5</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>17.0</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=left>Buffalo Bills</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>61</TD><TD>41.0</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>5.5</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>4</TD></TR><TR class=bg3 id=total_CAREER_DEFENSE vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD class=bg4 align=left>TOTAL</TD><TD class=bg4 align=left></TD><TD class=bg4>64</TD><TD class=bg4>161</TD><TD class=bg4>100.0</TD><TD class=bg4>61</TD><TD class=bg4>12.5</TD><TD class=bg4>2</TD><TD class=bg4>20</TD><TD class=bg4>10.0</TD><TD class=bg4>17</TD><TD class=bg4>0</TD><TD class=bg4>8</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=13>http://images.commissioner.com/images/dot_clear.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
12.5 sacks in 4 years.

HHurricane, if I'm not mistaken, it looks like he has improved every year, which was my original point.

[HHURRICANE]

HHurricane, if I'm not mistaken, it looks like he has improved every year, which was my original point.

You answered my question with "he's improving". The original question is if he is capable of getting 10-12 sacks? That's a yes or no question. Considering it took him 4 years to get 12.5 I'm thinking your answer is.....

[justasportsfan]

anybody thats not a homer on here and lashes out at the organization for what they perceive to be a stupid move(s) is accused of "knowing more than Marv'

"marv is clueless" you've already decided. Instead of waiting to see what becomes of that decision, you've already decided. Oh well. It's your opinion. Not fact like you make it out to be.

[BillsNick]

You answered my question with "he's improving". The original question is if he is capable of getting 10-12 sacks? That's a yes or no question. Considering it took him 4 years to get 12.5 I'm thinking your answer is.....

I can't say yes, but I do think that 10 sacks is possible. I also think it is possible for Hargrove to gat 10 sacks.

[Mr. Miyagi]

He's a backup now?
How many players drafted in the 5th round are starters?

[HHURRICANE]

[quote=BillsNick]I can't say yes, but I do think that 10 sacks is possible

That's my point. Hargrove should be the starting DE, not Kelsay.

[HHURRICANE]

How many players drafted in the 5th round are starters?

Hmmm. Our starting RT is a 7th rounder and our starting LB was a 6th rounder. You tell me.

[Dr. Lecter]

Hmmm. Our starting RT is a 7th rounder and our starting LB was a 6th rounder. You tell me.

An excpetion does not make it a rule.

[patmoran2006]

In case you haven't noticed, Marv has only been here 1 year. Youre blaming him for the last seven years is desperation on your part to discredit him since he made your prediction of last years season WRONG!!!

I'm not saying he's the next Poilan but he at least deseverves the benefit of the doubt after all , the results on the field last surpassed your prediction ( I know, it hurts being wrong) . The jury is still out on MArv IMO and not what YOU and ICE think of him.

You make it seem that Marv is a Nazzi and that these moves he's making are his own without asking his coaches. :crazy:
YOu keep talking about how the Bills winning more than 4 games exceeded my expecations.

If you want to run around and dance in the street because we "dramatically" improved by winning 7 games, then you be my guest.

The FACTS remain:
* 2 of those 7 wins were against a team that had a winning record (Jets, Jags)
* A record of 1-8 vs playoff teams.
* a record of 0-6 vs Division champs.

Defensively:
* 28th vs the run
* 28th in rushing first downs allowed
* 29th in rushing yards per attempt allowed.
this team is a LONG way from winning, and being overly loyal and committed to your own average-to slightly above average players certainly isn't going to get the job done.

Individually:
Ryan Denney despite playing far less snaps: 51 tackles and 6 sacks
Chris Kelsay: 62 tackles and 5.5 sacks (2.5 over the last 13 games)
So what does LEvy do? He goes out and gives Kelsay a contract that is superior to Schobel's (OMG just wait til its time to worry about him now).
While signing Kelsay may not have "broken the bank".. It certainly limits what we will do among the front four now, a weak front four.

In my not so ****ing humble opinion.. the move would've been to let him go, keep Denney and Hargrove and/or draft one of the big four DE in round one.
Maybe some of the money saved by not signing this rotational one-trick pony could've went to the OL, and offensive line that was 27th rushing and 30th in sacks allowed.
-------------------------------------------
And I evalute each and every move the Bills make on here. If I Like the move I will say so, if I dont, I will bash it. This is a message board, that's what ya do.

[Romes]

That's my point. Hargrove should be the starting DE, not Kelsay.

Based on what?

[justasportsfan]

YOu keep talking about how the Bills winning more than 4 games exceeded my expecations.

If you want to run around and dance in the street because we "dramatically" improved by winning 7 games, then you be my guest.

The FACTS remain:
* 2 of those 7 wins were against a team that had a winning record (Jets, Jags)
* A record of 1-8 vs playoff teams.
* a record of 0-6 vs Division champs.

Defensively:
* 28th vs the run
* 28th in rushing first downs allowed
* 29th in rushing yards per attempt allowed.
this team is a LONG way from winning, and being overly loyal and committed to your own average-to slightly above average players certainly isn't going to get the job done.

Individually:
Ryan Denney despite playing far less snaps: 51 tackles and 6 sacks
Chris Kelsay: 62 tackles and 5.5 sacks (2.5 over the last 13 games)
So what does LEvy do? He goes out and gives Kelsay a contract that is superior to Schobel's (OMG just wait til its time to worry about him now).
While signing Kelsay may not have "broken the bank".. It certainly limits what we will do among the front four now, a weak front four.

In my not so ****ing humble opinion.. the move would've been to let him go, keep Denney and Hargrove and/or draft one of the big four DE in round one.
Maybe some of the money saved by not signing this rotational one-trick pony could've went to the OL, and offensive line that was 27th rushing and 30th in sacks allowed.
-------------------------------------------
And I evalute each and every move the Bills make on here. If I Like the move I will say so, if I dont, I will bash it. This is a message board, that's what ya do.

It's not about what the bills did moreso than YOU WERE WRONG. This proves that your opinion isn't all that. That you're not always right and that you don't know more than Marv. Nuff said.

[HHURRICANE]

Based on what?

His play in St. Louis and the fact that he is 4 years younger.

[justasportsfan]

His play in St. Louis and the fact that he is 4 years younger.


what players do for another team translates to better production with another team? Tell that to finfans. I don't see them jumping with joy after Culps performance last year.

How about what Drew did for the Pats and what he did for the bills?

lets not go far, Willis ' didn't improve on what he did in his first 2 years did he? He regressed.

[TigerJ]

I think Hargrove is easily worth a fifth round pick both for what he did last season and his potential for the future. His athleticism gives him a lot of upside, and he's got a great attitude.

[patmoran2006]

It's not about what the bills did moreso than YOU WERE WRONG. This proves that your opinion isn't all that. That you're not always right and that you don't know more than Marv. Nuff said.

1- I never said I"m always right.. Im wrong like everybody else sometimes.. And everything I"ve shown on this thread isnt up for debate, as all the numbers I illustrated were not opinions, they were facts.

2- I don't recall ever saying that I do know Marv Levy. That's ridiculous, he's a coaching legend and his been around the game most of his life. He's one of the smartest men i've ever encountered. Like I've said, most 81 year old people I know are very lucky if they can wipe their own ass.

3- having said that, I think he is over his head as a GM, and his moves (and now this is opinion....) have demonstrated.. at least to me.

[Romes]

His play in St. Louis and the fact that he is 4 years younger.

I'd rather give the player with more experience going into his prime more playing time.

[justasportsfan]

1- I never said I"m always right.. Im wrong like everybody else sometimes.. .
but I guess in this case you are right when you say Marv is clueless? Lol! Marv never said he was a great GM. He's admitted to asking the input from his coaches and asking advice from Bill Polian. He doesn't act like he knows it all unlike some posters here who think they can do a better job than Marv. . ;) I guess you want TD Nazzi back eh?

[Michael82]

I just hope we don't lose Hargrove. :pray:

[HHURRICANE]

I just hope we don't lose Hargrove. :pray:

Something we can all agree on. This kid can play and I hope it's for the Bills.

[gr8slayer]

And he is good on ST's.

[Michael82]

And he is good on ST's.
Exactly! :up:

[raphael120]

Actually I think kelsay is better than Hargrove...stats kinda prove it. But Hargrove is liked better because he is more animated on the field... THey both have good potential but this is an area where I believe they clogged up the one DE spot with mediocre talent.

Thing i dont like, and stats dont lie...is that Kelsay was NONEXISTANT int he latter half of the season...he had all his 5 sacks in the first half of the season..if you think thats good enough for being a starting DE on the Buffalo Bills, then that's fine. Don't whine about our run D next year either.

[patmoran2006]

Yep.. Denney is now a 1.9 million backup for 2007.l

[mysticsoto]

Actually I think kelsay is better than Hargrove...stats kinda prove it. But Hargrove is liked better because he is more animated on the field... THey both have good potential but this is an area where I believe they clogged up the one DE spot with mediocre talent.

Is Denney back next year?

Stats don't prove anything. Hargrove played alot of DT last year, not DE. A typical DE will usually have more sacks than a DT. I'm not too happy about this move of resigning Kelsay at such a high price myself. I would have preferred to sign Hargrove cheaply (which I don't think would have been a problem) and move him to his more natural DE position, and instead bring in Ian Scott to take his place at DT. I think Hargrove is stronger than Kelsay and would be better against the run, and Ian Scott would help on the DT side against the run also!!!

[TigerJ]

Actually I think kelsay is better than Hargrove...stats kinda prove it. But Hargrove is liked better because he is more animated on the field... THey both have good potential but this is an area where I believe they clogged up the one DE spot with mediocre talent.

Is Denney back next year?

Stats are not always the true indicator. Hargrove got a lot of his reps this season at DT. This was to give Buffalo more a pass rush threat fromthe interior of the line since Buffalo wasn't getting a whole lot there. Not only, is it tougher to rack up sacks from the DT spot, Hargrove is not a natural DT, being about 25 lbs too light. You can't use stats to do a fair comparison, unless you compare what they did while playing the same position. Kelsay had to play some DT out of necessity in 2005 and really struggled there.

[raphael120]

Tell Peyton Manning stats don't matter.

[mysticsoto]

Yep.. Denney is now a 1.9 million backup for 2007.l

Well I understand your frustration at the latest moves the Bills have done, I think it is incorrect to call *ANY* DLineman a backup. The rotational aspect that has been implemented for our line means they are all starters and all will get significants amts of time on the field. And atleast Kelsay seems grateful and wants to be in Buffalo - unlike McGahee and his apparent lack of enthusiasm for being here (and perhaps lack of production b'cse of it).

While I don't necessarily agree with this move as I've stated above on what I would have preferred to happen, we can justify in that this likely means we will grab Patrick Willis (MLB) with our 1st round. And he will indeed improve our run D just with his speed alone. With a 4.49 40, he is faster than some RBs out there. And he's huge at 6'2", 240 lbs. I think he can be a monster for years to come.

If we do draft him, it will make it unlikely that any of the 4 or 5 top DEs that you like would fall to the 2nd rd anyway...

[madness]

anybody thats not a homer on here and lashes out at the organization for what they perceive to be a stupid move(s) is accused of "knowing more than Marv'

My bad, I thought this was an opionated message board, not a ****ing SAT test

It's not our fault you didn't study with FBH. :sigh: I miss her intelligent posts.

[patmoran2006]

FBH rules

[Mr. Pink]

I heard she had a nice rack.......











of lamb

[BillsFever21]

Last year it was the WR's and now this year it's DE. The position where we stock up on a bunch of average players to be backups or share time and overpay for all of their services. Great strategy.

[Ron Burgundy]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"What is it then Lecter? What's your excuse now?

We're not a horribly run organization? Then why have we not been in the playoffs in seven years?

Why are we 21 games under .500 this decade? Why have we not had double digit wins in eight years?

Why were there not one, not two, not three but FOUR consecutive blackouts last season?

Why does a team like the New YOrk Jets, who were even worse than Buffalo last year (4-12) go from having the fourth pick in the draft to making the playoffs in ONE ****in season??

Why does a team like the New Orlean Saints, who picked SECOND in the draft last year, make the NFC championship game in ONE season?

easy.. they hire the right coaches.. They hire the right GM.. They draft the right players.. They sign the right players in FA. Most importantly, they are RUN better.

You and select others on here are nothing more than constant-non stop- EXCUSE makers.

You can hate on me.. You can call me a crybaby, but at the end of the day, unlike anything you guys say, every single statement I just made is 100% FACT, NOT opinion.

You want to blame it on Donahoe? Ummm.. If so, its a "horrible organizational" decision to hire him.. Williams? Mularkey? "horrible organizational decision".. Bledsoe? 'Horrible organizational decision"
Good teams and good organizations have down years.. Bad teams and "horribly run organizations" have bad DECADES.

Not opinion.. but fact."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<!-- / message -->

This is so on-point that it would be my sig if it were smaller.

Bravo, pat. It sucks but it's true.

[justasportsfan]

Why does a team like the New YOrk Jets, who were even worse than Buffalo last year (4-12) go from having the fourth pick in the draft to making the playoffs in ONE ****in season??

Why does a team like the New Orlean Saints, who picked SECOND in the draft last year, make the NFC championship game in ONE season?

easy.. they hire the right coaches.. They hire the right GM.. They draft the right players.. They sign the right players in FA. Most importantly, they are RUN better.

.


You're right. NOT

Nevermind that the jets and Saints had veteran qb's compared to the bills. Heaven knows we didn't even try to use this season to develop JP. Limiting the playbook defnitely had no effect on our record /sarcasm

I guess Marv should've just outright cut Willis/JP who he inherited from TD and maybe our record would've been better than NO and the jets.


BY your logic, Coughlins team is a better RAN franchise than Cowhers Steelers that just won the sb a year ago since they made post season compared to last years steelers.

BTW, weren't the steelers eliminated from the playoffs before the bills were? If so, we must be a better ran org than cowhers steelers. No one in their right mind even expected the bills to be in the thick of a playoff birth towards the end of the season. Especially you, Mr. "it'll take a miracle to win 4 games" .



Hired the right coaches?

Wasn't there talk that Marv actually wanted Sean Peyton but NO signed him first? Just because he wasn't able to sign him since NO beat him to it, Marv's all of a sudden is clueless ? Let's not forget that you admitted to being a Fairchild fan. I guess he was a mistake too huh?


They draft the right people?

Okay, this just further proves my point you're no different from ICE. How many times have you actually said that you absolutely loved Marv's draft? So what gives? How many times are you gonna change your mind , ICE? Just like ICe, Marv only gets it when you agree with his moves, otherwise he's clueless.

Word of advice, please state your opinions after the season ends so you won't get caught changing your mind. :D

[jdbillsfan]

YOu keep talking about how the Bills winning more than 4 games exceeded my expecations.

If you want to run around and dance in the street because we "dramatically" improved by winning 7 games, then you be my guest.

The FACTS remain:
* 2 of those 7 wins were against a team that had a winning record (Jets, Jags)
* A record of 1-8 vs playoff teams.
* a record of 0-6 vs Division champs.

Defensively:
* 28th vs the run
* 28th in rushing first downs allowed
* 29th in rushing yards per attempt allowed.
this team is a LONG way from winning, and being overly loyal and committed to your own average-to slightly above average players certainly isn't going to get the job done.

Individually:
Ryan Denney despite playing far less snaps: 51 tackles and 6 sacks
Chris Kelsay: 62 tackles and 5.5 sacks (2.5 over the last 13 games)
So what does LEvy do? He goes out and gives Kelsay a contract that is superior to Schobel's (OMG just wait til its time to worry about him now).
While signing Kelsay may not have "broken the bank".. It certainly limits what we will do among the front four now, a weak front four.

In my not so ****ing humble opinion.. the move would've been to let him go, keep Denney and Hargrove and/or draft one of the big four DE in round one.
Maybe some of the money saved by not signing this rotational one-trick pony could've went to the OL, and offensive line that was 27th rushing and 30th in sacks allowed.
-------------------------------------------
And I evalute each and every move the Bills make on here. If I Like the move I will say so, if I dont, I will bash it. This is a message board, that's what ya do.


Your Facts/Stats don't really tell the whole story. One of the Franchises that you seem to think is doing so much better is the Jets. They had 1 win vs a team with a winning record. I don't think they are in better shape than Buffalo either.

We also lost to the Chargers, Patriots and Colts by a total of what 6 points? To me that is a team headed in the right direction.

They do make some moves, specifically with contracts and the salary cap that leave me scratching my head sometimes, but I doubt that we are the only franchise that happens to. If I was following the Saints or Jets, I am sure there are issues with them. All I ask is we get better and move in the right direction each year. So far Marv has done that.

Who knows how the Kelsay deal went down, but there are worse things than signing a young (hopefully improving) DE to 13 mil guaranteed.