Think the Bills sent a message about how serious they are?

[Mitchy moo]

They spent $100 Million on contracts day one, let tutan go and are bringing in RB's to replace another loser we have, Willis. They basically have spent the money and put the trash at the curb. Cheers to the Bills improving!:dance:

[Italian Stallion]

SPAM

[Mitchy moo]

SPAM

Should I have made a WM thread about being traded with nothing in writing to back it up?

[Italian Stallion]

Should I have made a WM thread about being traded with nothing in writing to back it up?

yes...thats how I associate you with any posts you make on this board. Your not being true to yourself unless you lie as much as possible and try to push it off as "intimate knowledge" of the situation



Reporting something you hear on sirius radio, and claiming "DOCKERY IS A BILL!!!" even though the only info that was avaliable at that point was that chris brown said he will be answering media questions after 4pm are 2 different things entirely

you confuse me on many levels.

[MTBillsFan]

Not selling the stadium out hurt Ralph's bottom line and his wallet. he needs to put up the money and field a winner...quick. Expect Briggs to be a part of the franchise by draft day.

[Statman]

They spent $100 Million on contracts day one, let tutan go and are bringing in RB's to replace another loser we have, Willis. They basically have spent the money and put the trash at the curb. Cheers to the Bills improving!:dance:
Since when did running and NFL team become like running the government?

The more you spend now the more things get better?

Since when does money necessarily equate to performance?

Is Kelsay gonna play better now that he's overpaid?

How about Tripplett, Price, Fowler, or Royal from last year who collectively got $50 million? We spent on them but didn't see any results. Not one of those players even warranted us getting them, much less for the money they got.

Now another pair of linemen that are nowhere near top caliber but for top money.

How many times are people gonna bite on this seriously? Credibility got washed down the tubes a long, long time ago.

At least we know that if things don't improve as a result of our signings, that it's not too early to begin talking about a new GM.

We hear the same thing every season now however. "We need to give [whomever our GM is] the benefit of the doubt," presumably for what most consider to be questionable or even foolish signings. Why do we always have to lean on "well, it could happen's" to have much hope here.

It's no wonder we had four non-sellouts this season.

[Goobylal]

It's no wonder we had four non-sellouts this season.
Oh, the irony. :rolleyes:

[Statman]

PS If the Bills want to send a message as to how seroius they are, maybe they can hire a serious GM and head coach.

That to most fans would mean getting serious about fielding a winner.

This debacle barely qualifies as believeable in terms of being competent management much less anything serious. On that note, I'm quite sure they're serious about putting a winning team on the field just as Donahoe and all of his cohorts were. But what then does that say about them and who we have now.

Not much imo.

[mybills]

PS If the Bills want to send a message as to how seroius they are, maybe they can hire a serious GM and head coach.


:coocoo:

[Statman]

Oh, the irony. :rolleyes:
Irony is paying Kelsay twice what Schobel got in guaranteed money.

Irony is spending three times what we could have spent over the last few seasons for lesser talent all the while crying that we didn't have the money. Well, where did it come from this year? Got an answer?

Irony is talking about drafting Okoye after trading up to draft McCargo, paying what was then big bucks for Tripplett, and then drafting another DT in round 5, none of whom did anything even remotely close to what we were told they would, not unpredictably mind you.

Irony is this exercise in the mode of the movie Groundhog Day whereby no matter which moron is in charge of the team, many fans simply sit there and continue to drink the kool aid in the cup without asking a single question in spite of the fact that by now they should all know that it's a "Johnstown cocktail."

Irony is signing subpar players to far more money than other teams would give them, which may be necessary, but then trying to sell them as solutions over players that were signed as recently as last year with the same exact sales pitch. Last year everyone got excited about Reyes and Fowler and Gibson in exactly the same way that they are getting excited about Dockery, Walker, and Whittle now.

There's plenty of irony to go around. ;)

What does it say for those that believe it all.

[Statman]

:coocoo:
Think so?

Levy's 0-for-1 in offseasons and has openly admitted he knows very little about the salary cap, one of the most pivotal elements of running a pro football team. Meanwhile, we have not signed one single impact player yet in spite of all the cash we've laid out to date. Dockery is the closest, but he's not an impact player, just a solid starter.

Dick Jauron has one winning season in seven as a head coach.

[TacklingDummy]

Now another pair of linemen that are nowhere near top caliber but for top money.

How many times are people gonna bite on this seriously? Credibility got washed down the tubes a long, long time ago.

It's no wonder we had four non-sellouts this season.

The average fan that buys tickets doesn't care about the signing of Dockery and a couple of scrubs. What the average fan sees is 2 stars leaving, Fletcher/Clements. And if the Bills do trade Willis/Spikes the ave. fan will see 4 stars leave the Bills.

Would those 4 leaving make the average fan buy a ticket?

Expect more blackouts.

[Statman]

Yeah, agreed that perceptions typically lead the way there as you say Tackling Dummy.

Still, if the Bills were to begin winning, then it would all wash out and our "stars" would be created. You obviously can't win without someone playing well. As an example, do you think that Andre Reed would have been half of what he was had he been on Tampa all those years that he was on the Bills with Kelly, Thurman, and our OL. Clearly not. His career wouldn't have produced anything that would have generated even a whiff of hall of fame consideration.

Also, I think that most fans by a long shot have become leery by players signed that have been foisted upon them as "stars." McGahee, Mike Williams, Bledsoe, Vincent, Milloy, Marcus Jones, and many others, lesser or greater, have all come and gone and only taken yet given nothing, or far less than they've taken.

Anyway, not to suggest that this contradicts your statements in any way, just pointing out what should be the obvious.

[Michael82]

Not selling the stadium out hurt Ralph's bottom line and his wallet. he needs to put up the money and field a winner...quick. Expect Briggs to be a part of the franchise by draft day.
:pray:

[mybills]

Think so?
Yes.

The draft was a crap shoot for Donahoe. At least Marv cares, and cares to learn.
Jauron is the best thing to happen to this team in a very long time. You'll never see him call a QB sneak on 4th & 20 like manboobs did with Bledsoe. Oh and, don't even get me started with Mularkey.

So yes. I think you're crazy to want another GM & HC.

[Statman]

Yeah, but that wasn't predictable five years ago 82?

Why the delay in trying to put it all together?

Furthermore, why us "finally doing something" in the most expensive year to do anything? I mean think about it, do you have any idea what nearly $100M in contracts would have bought us over the past two seasons if spent wisely and not like we dropped 50M last year?

That's nearly $150M in contracts, and for what? Tripplett, Price, Fowler, Royal, Dockery, Walker, and now Kelsay.

Imagine if we had a capable GM who had hired a decent head coach in a season where some good ones were available.

The incompetence within this organization reeks from the top on down. All of a sudden Ralph/the Bills have all kinds of money now? Why, after all the hoopla over being broke? Where is it coming from? According to Ralph the Bills were and have been incapable of spending that kind of cash.

Pumping a fraction of that into a decent GM and head coach within the last three or four seasons would have made infinitely more sense.

The entire thing makes no sense whatsoever. Meanwhile, when you spend money for guys like Dockery and Walker while other teams spend equal money for players like Steinbach and players better than Walker, who's marginal, then which direction does anyone think we're moving in, relative to other teams, not necessarily where we were at one point in time or another.

[mybills]

Have you stopped to think that maybe the decisions from last year are the reason there's so much money this year? I won't pretend to know how it all works, but I'm not giving up on Jauron especially after he's proven how much smarter he is than the last how many clowns. I also have to trust Marv, and his relationship with Ralph. They must be doing something right to have all of this money now. Plus, the draft hasn't even started yet.

[Statman]

Yes.

The draft was a crap shoot for Donahoe. At least Marv cares, and cares to learn.
Jauron is the best thing to happen to this team in a very long time. You'll never see him call a QB sneak on 4th & 20 like manboobs did with Bledsoe. Oh and, don't even get me started with Mularkey.

So yes. I think you're crazy to want another GM & HC.
The draft was a crap shoot for Donahoe. At least Marv cares, and cares to learn.
Jauron is the best thing to happen to this team in a very long time. You'll never see him call a QB sneak on 4th & 20 like manboobs did with Bledsoe. Oh and, don't even get me started with Mularkey.

So yes. I think you're crazy to want another GM & HC.[/QUOTE]

Well Marv "can learn" on his own time, not ours as fans. When "caring" translates to performance, then please let us know.

It's a real reach to suggest that Donahoe didn't care. Says who? You? What GM doesn't actually care?

IMO Donahoe cared, but just like Levy, and quite honestly I see little difference in their styles of overpaying for similar talent, he was incompetent too. These guys simply don't know what they're doing. That's all that there is to it.

Let's be real here, what sort of moron pays a guy like Dockery more than the top G, by a significant margin, got? Did we even attempt to negotiate with Steinbach? Or did Guy and Modrak, in their "proven wisdom" merely hand it down to Levy and Jauron that Dockery is the best G in the league all of a sudden on a par with Hutchinson and Steinbach? If so, what have they done in our memory to warrant such trust in them?

As to particular play calling, when we have 9 or 10 solid wins, please put out a memo. There was more than enough predictable and poor play calling this past season to not recommend Jauron and his team for coaching the Pro Bowl.

Seasons don't boil down to a few idiotic play calls.

Besides, where does it fit into your argument that the same person that "hand selected" Tom Donahoe also hand selected Marv Levy?

Why the blind trust and faith?

As well, where does it fit into the argument that this team cannot afford big money players after our ridiculous overspending on average talent this and last season to the tune of contracts nearing the $150M mark, for what, 7 players? That's then again 25-30% of our entire cap.

Can you explain that? Did we land any marquee players for that kind of money? Even one?

IMO Marv has this offseason and season. If he can't turn at least a .500 season with 8 wins or more, then I won't be the only one asking for a new GM by a long shot. And who's going to want to come here with all of these extremely mediocre players getting paid like the top talent in the league sucking up cap space for the next three or four years on the front ends of their contracts?

Yeah, that will be real ripe of us stealing a top GM, won't it.

[Dr. Lecter]

Irony is paying Kelsay twice what Schobel got in guaranteed money. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Different times. The Cap went up 27% in 2 years. All salaries are going up. Look around the league. The comparison is not apples to oranges. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Irony is spending three times what we could have spent over the last few seasons for lesser talent all the while crying that we didn't have the money. Well, where did it come from this year? Got an answer? <o:p></o:p>
There has been no crying about money. There has been perceived crying. WGR hosts say there has been crying. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Irony is talking about drafting Okoye after trading up to draft McCargo, paying what was then big bucks for Tripplett, and then drafting another DT in round 5, none of whom did anything even remotely close to what we were told they would, not unpredictably mind you. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Much of this is incomplete. First McCargo was hurt, so he could not play. Second, you know as well as I do that DT’s generally take time to develop. Third, he had an injury that was not completely or properly healed in college. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Finally, Williams was a steal in the 5<SUP>th</SUP> round. Not many 5<SUP>th</SUP> rounders played as well as he did, especially at a difficult to learn position. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Irony is this exercise in the mode of the movie Groundhog Day whereby no matter which moron is in charge of the team, many fans simply sit there and continue to drink the kool aid in the cup without asking a single question in spite of the fact that by now they should all know that it's a "<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Johnstown</st1:City></st1:place> cocktail." <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
You are calling Marv a moron? The man knows more than all of us do put together. Yes he makes mistakes (i.e. Reyes). He admits to them and moves on. He is also cleaning a mess made by TD. Certainly you don’t think that is a one year task, do you? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Irony is signing subpar players to far more money than other teams would give them, which may be necessary, but then trying to sell them as solutions over players that were signed as recently as last year with the same exact sales pitch. Last year everyone got excited about Reyes and Fowler and Gibson in exactly the same way that they are getting excited about Dockery, <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Walker</st1:place></st1:City>, and Whittle now. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Dockery is actually not much below Steinbach. He has given the same number of sacks. His team ran BETTER behind him. And to compare him to Reyes is laughable. Reyes came in when nobody else wanted him. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

There's plenty of irony to go around. <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 13.8pt; HEIGHT: 13.8pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/images/smilies/wink.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\mehst\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
What does it say for those that believe it all.
<o:p> </o:p>
I think most people are waiting to judge. We are not assuming this team will be terrible. <o:p></o:p>

[Statman]

Have you stopped to think that maybe the decisions from last year are the reason there's so much money this year? I won't pretend to know how it all works, but I'm not giving up on Jauron especially after he's proven how much smarter he is than the last how many clowns. I also have to trust Marv, and his relationship with Ralph. They must be doing something right to have all of this money now. Plus, the draft hasn't even started yet.

We spent nearly $50M in contract values last season but got next to nothing in terms of performance. Your comment would have made a lot more sense if we at least got a little something for what we did spend in free agency.

Also, how do you personally justify the notion that we paid Price about $10M for four years including a hefty signing bonus when there isn't one other team in the league that would have given him a dime better than veteran minimum?

How do you justify signing a guy like butter fingers and twinkle toes Robert Royal to the richest contract ever seen by a Bills TE?

Or Tripplett getting what was considered a very sizeable Schobel-like signing bonus when he was and has proven only to offer backup caliber play?

Or Fowler, whose best move is standing there watching defensive linemen rush by him on both sides as he watches their technique after they run by him?

We spent a sizeable chunk of change last season prompting me to not even know how to answer your question directly.

I will pretend to know how free agency and the draft work because it's really not that difficult a thing to comprehend. It's all about value and there isn't anyone out there at all that thinks we've gotten value for our cap dollars spent either this year or last year. The facts, both current and in hindsight, support that.

The rest of your comments are exactly what my point is. People have this blind faith and trust in people that have not earned it. Levy's first season as a GM was a disaster and his second is looking even worse so far pending everyone's "we owe them the benefit of the doubt" statements yet for no other good reason. Why? Why do we owe them the benefit of the doubt? What have they done to prove that they are even average in their roles much less tops in this league?

You say Jauron is "smart." Why? What did he do, specifically, that indicates to you that he's any smarter than say the rest of the worst 16 (bottom half) coaches in this league?

As to "relationships," who cares. As fans we aren't paying for relationships, we're paying for performance on the field. I don't care if Ralph hates everyone within his administration as long as they are competent and our team consistently makes the playoffs. In fact, perhaps it's Ralph's propensity to hire based on relationships that makes him one of the least successful owners in the free agency era of football.

Have you ever considered that?

[Dr. Lecter]

Imagine if we had a capable GM who had hired a decent head coach in a season where some good ones were available.

The incompetence within this organization reeks from the top on down. All of a sudden Ralph/the Bills have all kinds of money now? Why, after all the hoopla over being broke? Where is it coming from? According to Ralph the Bills were and have been incapable of spending that kind of cash.

Pumping a fraction of that into a decent GM and head coach within the last three or four seasons would have made infinitely more sense.


Name the decent head coaches available over Jauron. Sherman still has no job. There was nobody else with experience available.

Ralph hired Marv to delegate. That is his role. To clean up TD's mess. That is what he is doing. The players are much more confidant in what Jauron and Levy do.

And Ralph never said they did not have cash to spend. The WGR reaction was that he said that. It was not a complete summary of what was said, nor was it accurate.

Finally how can you evaluate Marv/Dick after one season? The team improved in that season. The record improved and the second half of the season was much better than the first half. Losman progressed. Guys like Whitner, Simpson, Ellison, Peters, Evans, and Williams all came along and showed that they are/will be players.

[Statman]

Sorry, but I'm outta here now. The posts are beginning to get ridiculous. (Lechter) If you want to believe that the earth is flat and that the moon is made of cheese, be my guest. :)

[Dr. Lecter]

Think so?

Levy's 0-for-1 in offseasons and has openly admitted he knows very little about the salary cap, one of the most pivotal elements of running a pro football team. Meanwhile, we have not signed one single impact player yet in spite of all the cash we've laid out to date. Dockery is the closest, but he's not an impact player, just a solid starter.

Dick Jauron has one winning season in seven as a head coach.

How can Dockery not be considered impact? There is little question that the O-line was the biggest problem last year, with guard play being the worst. They likely fixed that. No he is not a big name. He is not Spikes or Milloy or Fletcher or Adams. TD made big name signings and it got us nowhere.

Levy had a fine offseason last year. The draft was fantastic and will go a long way in improving a long stuggling franchise. Rome was no built in a day. It will take more than year, and likely more than two, to fix this team.

[Dr. Lecter]

Sorry, but I'm outta here now. The posts are beginning to get ridiculous. (Lechter) If you want to believe that the earth is flat and that the moon is made of cheese, be my guest. :)

Point out what is so ridiculous about what I said.

Is it that I don't assume this team will be terrible again? That I am willing to watch a team play before I judge?

Will this team be great this year? i don't know. Are they finally addressing places of neglet? Yes they are.

Did they show improvement last year?

Hell yes.

[mybills]

Sorry, but I'm outta here now. The posts are beginning to get ridiculous.

First of all, I don't go by stats, so why would I listen to a statman?
Secondly, you are coming across as a flip flopper, and you're making us dizzy. You're already *****ing about getting rid of them, but you say this...

IMO Marv has this offseason and season. If he can't turn at least a .500 season with 8 wins or more, then I won't be the only one asking for a new GM by a long shot.
:dizzy:

[Dr. Lecter]

OK, I promised some numbers. I figure for Statman, it is the least I can do.....

In 62 games, Steinbach gave up 13.25 sacks.

In 61 games Dockery gave up 13.75 sacks.

Call it even.

In terms of rushing...

Washington finished 4th in the league, 138.5 yards per game with a 4.5 yard average.

Cinci finished a below average 26th in the league, with 101.8 yards per game and a 3.7 yard average. (BTW, that's only 4 more yards per game than the Bills did last year, and the same ypc.) Washington had a back up RB when Portis went down, Cinci had Rudi Johnson.

Both play LG. Washington averaged 4.95 (ranked 5th) ypc going over left tackle and 4.58 (7th) going over center-guard.

Cinci- 4.45 (13th) and 4.34 (18th)

Dockery's got 35 lbs on Steinbach, and still doesn't give up any more sacks.

These were compiled by an outside source. His sources were 1) Stats Inc/Profootballweekly.com 2)ESPN.com and 3)footballoutsiders.com

Point is, Dockery is a solid addition.

[raphael120]

I just dont see how anyone can ***** until we see what happens when the season starts, for right now it's just *****ing for the sake of *****ing.. Wait for the draft, get all your information, and then judge. I admit i was pissed when we did the Kelsay signing but these OL additions appeased me...so we'll see what other good moves Marv has left.

[The Answer]

They spent $100 Million on contracts day one, let tutan go and are bringing in RB's to replace another loser we have, Willis. They basically have spent the money and put the trash at the curb. Cheers to the Bills improving!:dance:

It's all going to be irrelevant unless this team shows results on the football field - playoffs or bust in 2007!

~The Answer

[Mitchy moo]

It's all going to be irrelevant unless this team shows results on the football field - playoffs or bust in 2007!

~The Answer

Well we've seen a commitment to a underserved part of our team for the past 10 years, the O-line. I hope it's enough to make us successful. I also like the fact that the press was hopping on Buffalo as a up & coming team late last year.