Youboty's "first round grade" vs. Whitner being a "reach"

[OpIv37]

When the national sports media criticized the Whitner pick last year by calling it a reach, all we heard on this board was about how the media's draft gurus don't have credibility and if they knew what they were talking about they'd be working in someone's FO, etc.

Yet, now, I keep seeing people posting about how Youboty had a "first round grade" and that means he'll be good for us.

Well guess what? The people who called Whitner a "reach" are the same ones who gave Youboty his "first round grade"

So, make up your damn minds people. Either the draft gurus know what they're talking about, or they're wrong, but they can't be knowledgeable when they say something that works in the Bills favor and incompetent when they knock the Bills.

[User Manuel]

I tend to think of it this way. I really don't think there are many, if any, players who don't belong in the NFL. They are all supreme atheletes.

The difference is style the teams play and what is in their heads. For instance, Donte Whitner might be an average S in in an old style straightup 4-3 attack but an above average safety in a Cover Two.

First round talent, second round talent, they are all based on measureables like speed and leaping ability, wonderlich scores, etc..

For every reach there is a faller. Tony Mandarich = first round talent = fat guy who couldn't play. Maybe he goes to a different offense and dominates, who knows?

If you put Adrian Petersen on an offense that cant block or doesnt fit his style of Running and you get a bust. Would Joe Montana be in the HOF if the Raiders and their vertical philosophy had gotten him instead of the 49ers West Coast system?

Basically, there is no "wrong" pick the Bills can make if he fits their scheme and produces.

The draft really comes down to philosophy and belief in what the player brings in addition to his talents.

The Mel Kipers of the world simply collate the stas and decide who is "good" and who is "not good" enough to be a round 1 millionaire.

[patmoran2006]

Every writer in America on here is knowledgable when they say something in the Bills favor and they're ******ed and don't know know **** when they speak against them.

That's been obvious forever.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Every writer in America on here is knowledgable when they say something in the Bills favor and they're ******ed and don't know know **** when they speak against them.

That's been obvious forever.
I agree.

[ddaryl]

Yeah but this has little to do with the medias opinion and has more to do with "In Marv We Trust".

Marv knows football players IMO.

[patmoran2006]

Yeah but this has little to do with the medias opinion and has more to do with "In Marv We Trust".

Marv knows football players IMO.
I dont disagree.. OP's point was the same people who said Whitner is a reach, also said Youboty is a "first round grade" so it really doesnt matter.

[Jaybird]

youboty and whitner played on the same side of the field at OSU. i think they might work great together!!!!!!! mike mayock called us taking whitner. Youboty made tons of plays in college and lets just hope he can do it in the nfl. also lets not forget that both corners didnt play so hot last year

[HHURRICANE]

When the national sports media criticized the Whitner pick last year by calling it a reach, all we heard on this board was about how the media's draft gurus don't have credibility and if they knew what they were talking about they'd be working in someone's FO, etc.

Yet, now, I keep seeing people posting about how Youboty had a "first round grade" and that means he'll be good for us.

Well guess what? The people who called Whitner a "reach" are the same ones who gave Youboty his "first round grade"

So, make up your damn minds people. Either the draft gurus know what they're talking about, or they're wrong, but they can't be knowledgeable when they say something that works in the Bills favor and incompetent when they knock the Bills.

Dude, the reach was 8th instead of maybe 14th. It wasn't like he was a 2nd rounder or last 1st rounder. Huff than Whitner.

Yobouty's only criticism was that he sometimes gambled on the big play. Something that is totally coachable at the Pro level.

I'll bet money that we see more Int's out of this kid than we saw out of NATE.

[Tatonka]

wow, OP.. are you bored or just looking for something to complain about?

[OpIv37]

Dude, the reach was 8th instead of maybe 14th. It wasn't like he was a 2nd rounder or last 1st rounder. Huff than Whitner.

Yobouty's only criticism was that he sometimes gambled on the big play. Something that is totally coachable at the Pro level.

I'll bet money that we see more Int's out of this kid than we saw out of NATE.

I didn't say Whitner was a reach- I said it's hypocritical for people to get all bent out of shape when the gurus say Whitner's a reach but suddenly take the gurus' word for it when they say Youboty is first round material.

[OpIv37]

wow, OP.. are you bored or just looking for something to complain about?

I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm sick of everyone's confidence in Youboty just because of his "first round grade" because it's meaningless. Don't get me wrong- keeping Clements would have been a HUGE waste of money. But so far, Youboty is completely unproven and the only info that people cite about him comes from the same draft people they slammed for calling Whitner a "reach".

[Tatonka]

well sometimes the coaches just know what they are doing and why they picked a guy.. how bout that answer?

peters was undrafted and he has worked out ok..

instead of getting worked up about it, just wait and see what happens in the draft. that will give you your answer.. if we take a cb early, then you know the team doesnt think he is ready.. if we dont, then they are clearly ok with where he is at and thomas competing.

[OpIv37]

well sometimes the coaches just know what they are doing and why they picked a guy.. how bout that answer?

peters was undrafted and he has worked out ok..

instead of getting worked up about it, just wait and see what happens in the draft. that will give you your answer.. if we take a cb early, then you know the team doesnt think he is ready.. if we dont, then they are clearly ok with where he is at and thomas competing.

I wouldn't say that it means they're clearly ok with it- I think it means they feel Youboty is a better option than anyone they could draft or fit under the salary cap. That's not the same as being OK with it.

Every time Youboty comes up in a thread (which is a lot since there isn't much to discuss this time of year), someone mentions the "first round grade" despite the fact that it's completely meaningless. I'm just sick of hearing it.

[X-Era]

When the national sports media criticized the Whitner pick last year by calling it a reach, all we heard on this board was about how the media's draft gurus don't have credibility and if they knew what they were talking about they'd be working in someone's FO, etc.

Yet, now, I keep seeing people posting about how Youboty had a "first round grade" and that means he'll be good for us.

Well guess what? The people who called Whitner a "reach" are the same ones who gave Youboty his "first round grade"

So, make up your damn minds people. Either the draft gurus know what they're talking about, or they're wrong, but they can't be knowledgeable when they say something that works in the Bills favor and incompetent when they knock the Bills.

Hold up. Just because Whitner was worth a 1st round pick doesnt mean he was worth the 8 pick. We lucked out. If you take the opinions of many and form a rational conclusion, Whitner wasnt worth the 8 pick when drafted that high. Now, I think what many of us said was that the media is stupid for slamming any team that has done way more studying of the guy than the media.

The point isnt whether the media is worth anything or not...they arent. All they do is regurgitate popular opinion. The point is that Whitner turned out to be a great pick and in hind sight I think hes indeed worth the 8 overall pick.

As far as Youboty, he had a 1st round grade by some but not all or even most. Most thought he was a solid 2nd rounder that we got in the 3rd. Thats called a steal.

Is a CB with 2nd round talent good enough to be our new starter? Well, if we dont take one in the 1st round, were in the same boat either way, so why not just try out Youboty? He still has a clear advantage over any new rookie because of experience and time in our systems.

So, the media said Whitner was a reach, they were wrong. Then the nedia said Youboty was a 2nd round pick, they were wrong. All I see is that the media is wrong alot.

That said, we were happily right both times. Youboty could be a steal, Whitner was worth the pick. Now, Youboty should have a shot at our starting job.

[OpIv37]

All I see is that the media is wrong alot.

.

my point exactly- the media is wrong a lot. So everyone who's saying Youboty has a "first round grade" needs to STFU because it's MEANINGLESS. They're not right THIS TIME just because they said something good about our guy.

[X-Era]

my point exactly- the media is wrong a lot. So everyone who's saying Youboty has a "first round grade" needs to STFU because it's MEANINGLESS. They're not right THIS TIME just because they said something good about our guy.

Id say it doesnt matter what anyone thinks except the Bills. But I think the situation gives Youboty a great chance of being our new starter at CB. I think many think we will go with a RB in the draft 1st and foremost. That means were talking 2nd round or beyond from our new "starter", so we might as well just play Youboty.

I think its fine. There really arent a ton of stud prospects at CB, I think its a weaker class. Hall is the top player but he isnt Woodson.

Crowell could be great at ILB, and OLB is deeper, that plays to our advantage.

[mysticsoto]

my point exactly- the media is wrong a lot. So everyone who's saying Youboty has a "first round grade" needs to STFU because it's MEANINGLESS. They're not right THIS TIME just because they said something good about our guy.

Well I think there is a difference. With Whitner, they didn't say he wasn't a 1st rd talent, just that he should have gone a few spots later. With Youboty, they were saying he had talent enough to be considered in the 1st rd. And in a weak cornerback class like we have in this year's draft, if Youboty was considered that high last year...imagine this year?

[Ron Burgundy]

Every time Youboty comes up in a thread (which is a lot since there isn't much to discuss this time of year), someone mentions the "first round grade" despite the fact that it's completely meaningless. I'm just sick of hearing it.

I know exactly what you mean.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=121354&highlight=youboty+round

[ublinkwescore]

When the national sports media criticized the Whitner pick last year by calling it a reach, all we heard on this board was about how the media's draft gurus don't have credibility and if they knew what they were talking about they'd be working in someone's FO, etc.

Yet, now, I keep seeing people posting about how Youboty had a "first round grade" and that means he'll be good for us.

Well guess what? The people who called Whitner a "reach" are the same ones who gave Youboty his "first round grade"

So, make up your damn minds people. Either the draft gurus know what they're talking about, or they're wrong, but they can't be knowledgeable when they say something that works in the Bills favor and incompetent when they knock the Bills.

Whitner has proven to not be a reach because we all know the Rams were gonna take his @$$, and he's outperforming Michael Huff in Oakland.

Marv & Co. 1 - Media draft "gurus" 0

Ashton Youboty is essentially playing his rookie season this year because he only really appeared in what, like 4 games for us last season - didn't start any either did he?

I think having Youboty and Whitner together is probably not bad for team chemistry - they've both played at OSU together.

maybe the draft gurus are really just that wrong - since we didn't get Youboty until round 3.

[OpIv37]

maybe the draft gurus are really just that wrong - since we didn't get Youboty until round 3.

and that's exactly why I want to stop hearing about Youboty's "first round grade". It's meaningless, and it's hypocritical for people who hate on the draft gurus for the Whitner "reach" comments to suddenly give them credibility for the Youboty comments.

[ublinkwescore]

Dude, the reach was 8th instead of maybe 14th. It wasn't like he was a 2nd rounder or last 1st rounder. Huff than Whitner.

Yobouty's only criticism was that he sometimes gambled on the big play. Something that is totally coachable at the Pro level.

I'll bet money that we see more Int's out of this kid than we saw out of NATE.

Man, if you're right about that last part, I'll wax your porsche for you for free one day.

[Bert102176]

I think Youboty will be fine, he just needs the chance to play

[OpIv37]

I think Youboty will be fine

just to clarify, I wasn't trying to make a statement about Youboty- I'm just trying to say that people here are using the "first round grade" as evidence that Youboty will be fine.

Honestly, I don't know what to think about him because I've never really seen him play, save for the bowl game when they beat ND :fit:, and I wasn't paying much attention to him because at that point, I had no idea that he would be a Bill. I suspect he'll struggle early, as most corners do when they move to the NFL. It just depends how well and how quickly he develops.

[HHURRICANE]

I suspect he'll struggle early, as most corners do when they move to the NFL. It just depends how well and how quickly he develops.

An Ohio State guy, in a Pro system, that was Whitner's team mate and room mate. Looks like a pretty good fit to me. Anybody can be a bust but Youboty is going to be better than fine.

I'm actually alot more concerned about replacing Fletcher.

[Bert102176]

just to clarify, I wasn't trying to make a statement about Youboty- I'm just trying to say that people here are using the "first round grade" as evidence that Youboty will be fine.

Honestly, I don't know what to think about him because I've never really seen him play, save for the bowl game when they beat ND :fit:, and I wasn't paying much attention to him because at that point, I had no idea that he would be a Bill. I suspect he'll struggle early, as most corners do when they move to the NFL. It just depends how well and how quickly he develops.



ah ok, but still I feel he will be good

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I think your question can just as easily be turned around OP.

There were a lot of people here who screamed about the Whitner pick being a reach and the Bills being the laughingstock of the NFL, etc., who were somewhat molified when the Bills then got a "steal" in Youboty in the 3rd round, that are now questioning whether Youboty has the talent to be a starter at CB.

With Whitner outplaying Huff--who most of those same people I am refering to above would have loved to see the Bills draft--the Whitner pick now looks to be less of a "reach" than it appeared to be to many Bills fans.

As one of those who tried to explain why the Whitner pick was not a "reach" last year, if I now occasionally point out that Youboty was considered a potential 1st round talent, it is to remind those who I refered to above and are now questioning Youboty's talent, that they are the ones who thought that the media was correct in labeling Whitner a "reach" and Youboty a "steal". If someone agreed with the media then in thinking Whitner a "reach" and Youboty a "steal", why now question whether Youboty has the talent to become a starter in the NFL?

I have stated in the past that I believe that a player's "value" is determined by where he was picked and where he would likely have been picked had he not been taken where he was (St.Louis, which needed a SS and bailed out of its pick as soon as the Bills selected Whitner and Baltimore, which admitted that it was considering taking Whitner, are the teams that determined his bottom value had the Bills not selected him at # 8; the NY Giants, who virtually admitted that McCargo would have been their man instead of Kiawanuka, determined his lower value IMHO, not M.Kiper).

By this reasoning, Youboty was an early 3rd round pick and that was his "value", even though some thought he woulda/coulda/shoulda gone higher.

As any GM in the NFL will tell you, a player taken in the first three rounds of the draft is expected to be able to be a starter in the NFL. By that reasoning, unless the Bills were wrong (and every one who thought Youboty woulda/coulda/shoulda gone higher was stupid), Youboty should have the ability to be a competent starter in the NFL.

Will he struggle at times this season? Of course I believe he will. How many times have I pointed out that rookies and inexperienced players make mistakes and struggle at times? (Is that not one of my mantras?!?!) But, IMHO, that does not mean that he does not have the ability to become a solid starter--which is what a player taken in the 3rd round of the draft should become--in the NFL. And, that's what I expect him to be once he gets his feet wet and gets some experience.

Now, if, in some discussion questioning whether Youboty can play, I may happen to point out that there were some who thought Youboty woulda/coulda/shoulda been a late first rounder or second round pick in last year's draft, it is only to point out that some of those now wringing their hands about him were amongst those who were screaming about the Whitner pick and delighted that the Bills "stole" Mr. Youboty in the 3rd Round. Was Youboty a "steal" or not??? Just because circumstances did not permit him to get much playing time last season, does he now have less ability than he had then?

So, you see, Op, your question in this thread can go both ways.

Either way, Youboty is going to have to step up his game and prove that he can get the job done this season. And, that may or may not be a cause for hand-wringing.

But, at least, I have the consolation of knowing that Whitner's play on the field at least in part justified my defense of that pick. And, my attitude about Youboty's "value" has been consistent. Now it is up to him to show us what he can do (understanding, of course, that he is going to make his share of mistakes along the way).

[TigerJ]

Frankly, it doesn't matter any more. Whitner showed he can play. Youboty graded out incomplete. If players are drafted late or signed as undrafted free agents they sometimes never get a real shot to prove they can play. Pennington got a shot last season, but the Bills signed Langston Walker to play that spot this year. Youboty was drafted high enough that I think he'll get every opportunity to play. It won't matter what pundits or fans say at that point. What matters is what he does on the field.

[Talk0fNewYork]

They called Whit a reach because he was, we could have easily taken him a couple of picks later but players are rated by teams needs not skill.

[madness]

Well I think there is a difference. With Whitner, they didn't say he wasn't a 1st rd talent, just that he should have gone a few spots later. With Youboty, they were saying he had talent enough to be considered in the 1st rd. And in a weak cornerback class like we have in this year's draft, if Youboty was considered that high last year...imagine this year?

:goodpost:

The good ones always get passed like a hitchiker with an ax and no Bud Light.