Dont count on Spikes

[patmoran2006]

Bills | Spikes on the trade block
Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:58:48 -0700
Mark Gaughan, of the <A href="http://www.kffl.com/link/139">Buffalo News, reports Buffalo Bills (http://www.kffl.com/team/9/nfl) LB Takeo Spikes (http://www.kffl.com/player/377/nfl) is on the trade block, and all the economic factors point to him being traded. It remains hard to see how they can avoid spending more cash than their cap limit of $112 million with Spikes on the roster. He's scheduled to make $4.6 million in 2007.
================

This is bull****. This cash to cap is bull****.. With this team, its always one step forward, two steps back. sad

[OpIv37]

is our FO that ****ing dumb? First, if we trade him, who's going to play LB? Second, after two years loaded with injuries, who's going to give up anything of value for him? He's more valuable to us than he is to anyone else at the moment. And finally, if they know we're in cap trouble, who's going to trade for him when they know there's a good chance he'll get cut and they can get him for nothing later?

[patmoran2006]

There is NO Excuse to cut or trade him now except for one obvious thing.

CHEAPNESS... If this happens, i HOPE fans let Wilson know what they think of him.

This would be a 100% cheap move and i'm getting really sick of it. WTF. Cleveland Cinci and others are small markets just like us, they dont do this ****.

[The Spaz]

:baby::baby:

[The Spaz]

You move on. If this years draft is anything like last year's we will have players who will fill right in.

[OpIv37]

You move on. If this years draft is anything like last year's we will have players who will fill right in.

fit right in to the tune of the 27th ranked D? It's not like our rookies plugged right in and did well last year. They did well FOR ROOKIES, but that's not the same as doing well. And the draft is always a gamble. You never know if a) the guy you want is going to be there or b) the guy you get is going to be a bust. Cutting/trading Spikes at this point is stupid.

[patmoran2006]

You move on. If this years draft is anything like last year's we will have players who will fill right in.
Correct.. and the way it will be in Buffalo with a "cash to cap" is we will have players drafted every year who will fill in, because every free agent of significance will walk at end of contract; SO instead of building a champion through the draft; we'll be replacing departed vets with rookies every year.

[Dr. Lecter]

If they do this. If Spikes can play.

Until it happens can we wait to whine, cry and over-react?

One would think pre-FA hissy fits that were unfounded would get people to calm down.

And if Ralph is cheap, then why the **** are you *****ing about over-paying for Walker?????

Is Ralph a cheap, over-paying bastard?

[Devin]

Is Ralph a cheap, over-paying bastard?

:bf1:

[jpdex12]

Correct.. and the way it will be in Buffalo with a "cash to cap" is we will have players drafted every year who will fill in, because every free agent of significance will walk at end of contract; SO instead of building a champion through the draft; we'll be replacing departed vets with rookies every year.

Holy ****, the sky is falling, quick find an umbrella!

Go take a **** and relax guys. They know things that we don't! What if you have your panties in a bind over this and there are some medical issues that we don't know of and Spikes isn't willing to take a pay cut? You guys freak out over everything. What are you going to do, pay a guy more than he's really worth because you are scared to have to find someone to fill his spot? Teams have been doing this for years and for lot less reasons. Look at NE!
Friggin Pesamists!
I can't believe that you aren't for us drafting Michael Bush in the first round if you are hung up on paying injured players big money. This is football, our passion, but it is also a business remember!

[The Spaz]

We're trading Spikes for Briggs.:pray::snicker:

[patmoran2006]

Actually.. Yes he is.. Its very easy to be both and Wilson has PERFECTED IT.
He's an overpaying bastard for giving Walker too much money.
And he's a cheap bastard because the OL came at the expense of EVERYTHING else.

How many teams in the NFL would Kiwaukee Thomas be starting for? How about Anthony Thomas? How about Peerless Price? How about Keith Ellison? How about Kyle Williams? I'll save ya the time from thinking.. NOT MANY TEAMS, thats the answer.

So dont sit there and give that **** he's not cheap.. Numbers don't lie. We are in the top half dozen in the league in cap room, and all of those bums are currently starters.

It's OK though. Because maybe I don't know ****, but I can GUARENTEE YOU THIS.. If this team is under .500 at or even near the bye, you can forget about seeing any games on television, this stadium will be missing 25,000 fans at least 3-4 home games.

[camelcowboy]

Every one assumes they're trading him because of the cash to crap policy. He's still on the roster, so let people continue to speculate. All these reports have been nothing but opinions of the writers.

[OpIv37]

Holy ****, the sky is falling, quick find an umbrella!

Go take a **** and relax guys. They know things that we don't! What if you have your panties in a bind over this and there are some medical issues that we don't know of and Spikes isn't willing to take a pay cut? You guys freak out over everything. What are you going to do, pay a guy more than he's really worth because you are scared to have to find someone to fill his spot? Teams have been doing this for years and for lot less reasons. Look at NE!
Friggin Pesamists!
I can't believe that you aren't for us drafting Michael Bush in the first round if you are hung up on paying injured players big money. This is football, our passion, but it is also a business remember!

WE HAVE NO LINEBACKERS! That's not freaking out over nothing. We already lost one starting LB and we're trying to trade another starting LB and we haven't signed a single person on D yet. Ellison-Crowell-Digiorgio? Ellison-Crowell-Wire? Ellison-Crowell-Haggan? If that doesn't scare the **** out of you, you're not paying attention.

And if it is a medical issue, fine, but find a ****ing replacement. We can't just keep losing guys and replacing them with no one and expect to win.

[patmoran2006]

Every one assumes they're trading him because of the cash to crap policy. He's still on the roster, so let people continue to speculate. All these reports have been nothing but opinions of the writers.
i'll bet ya 1500 ZB's that if we sign ONE more FA to this team who's salary comes out to $1 million per year or more, it comes at the expense of Spikes.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Yesterday Moran was crying about how we WAY overpaid for walker but now because the Bills may trade a linebacker who was HORRIBLE last year and had an achilles injury the team is cheap.

[Tatonka]

we wont trade spikes for briggs.. it says spikes is a cap move.. so you want to trade for a guy that will have a MUCH higher cap number? i cant see it. i would love it, but i cant see it.

it looks like we will have a LB corps, at best, of

WSLB - 2nd year 6th round pick Ellison
MLB - Rookie, at best Willis
SSLB - 5 year Crowell, coming off a broken leg

sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[THATHURMANATOR]

WE HAVE NO LINEBACKERS! That's not freaking out over nothing. We already lost one starting LB and we're trying to trade another starting LB and we haven't signed a single person on D yet. Ellison-Crowell-Digiorgio? Ellison-Crowell-Wire? Ellison-Crowell-Haggan? If that doesn't scare the **** out of you, you're not paying attention.

And if it is a medical issue, fine, but find a ****ing replacement. We can't just keep losing guys and replacing them with no one and expect to win.
Yeah we sure couldnt draft 1. :ill:

[OpIv37]

Yesterday Moran was crying about how we WAY overpaid for walker but now because the Bills may trade a linebacker who was HORRIBLE last year and had an achilles injury the team is cheap.

you're leaving out the part about us not having any LB's on the roster. I have no problem REPLACING Spikes if the FO thinks he's never going to return to form, but there is no one left to replace him with at this point. And don't say a draft pick- I already stated that draft picks are always gambles, and we tried that last year and it didn't work.

[camelcowboy]

i'll bet ya 1500 ZB's that if we sign ONE more FA to this team who's salary comes out to $1 million per year or more, it comes at the expense of Spikes.

I would throw down in a heart beat, but i have a bet with ltff that Troy Smith won't be drafted on the first day so im not going to over extend myself.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Must they replace him before he is gone?
Can they not replace him after they get rid of him?

[OpIv37]

Yeah we sure couldnt draft 1. :ill:

once again- a) you never know if you can get the guy you want in the draft because 31 other teams are drafting too b) you never know if the guy you get is going to be a bust and c) we started a bunch of rookies on D last year and it got us 7-9.

So don't expect different results from doing the same things over and over again.

[The Spaz]

I see Crowell at MLB, Ellison and ? which probably will be a draft pick.

[OpIv37]

Must they replace him before he is gone?
Can they not replace him after they get rid of him?

with who? The only guys available of any value are Cato June and Lance Briggs, and if we're cutting Spikes for cap reasons there is no way we can bring in one of them.

[Tatonka]

Must they replace him before he is gone?
Can they not replace him after they get rid of him?

the best they can replace him with is yet another rookie LB.. a worse option is one of the garbage FA lbs left.

[OpIv37]

I see Crowell at MLB, Ellison and ? which probably will be a draft pick.

scary thought.

[patmoran2006]

I see Crowell at MLB, Ellison and ? which probably will be a draft pick.
Can you find us a "?" at RB as well. How about a ? to upgrade at DT.. Probably another ? at WR and a ? for more depth at LB.

This better be the best draft ever the way this team is heading.

[feelthepain]

Like I said the best possible first 2 rounds of the draft for the Bills would be, Branch and Beason.

[THATHURMANATOR]

once again- a) you never know if you can get the guy you want in the draft because 31 other teams are drafting too b) you never know if the guy you get is going to be a bust and c) we started a bunch of rookies on D last year and it got us 7-9.

So don't expect different results from doing the same things over and over again.
Exactly YOU NEVER KNOW.

Don't expect the same results either since each player is different than the next.

[DraftBoy]

If this is true, id ideally hope for a trade down to pick up an extra 2nd do something like;

1. OLB Beason
2a. ILB Siler
2b. CB Houston
3a. DT Johnson
3b. WR Jones
4. RB Jackson
6. OL
7. QB Thigpen

[patmoran2006]

If they were going to trade Spikes they shoulda done it earlier..When they ere better FA's to replace him with.

At THIS point, its 100% an ECONOMIC MOVE .. nothing more

[camelcowboy]

Must they replace him before he is gone?
Can they not replace him after they get rid of him?

I would like to see them fill some holes, instead of just creating more. This team has enough needs right now. I don't think they cut him. A trade, depends on what they could get.

[OpIv37]

Exactly YOU NEVER KNOW.

Don't expect the same results either since each player is different than the next.

last year all we heard about was how great our draft was, but it still wasn't good enough to win with a bunch of rookies. If it's different it's more than likely to be worse. But it's not going to be different because we're doing the same damn thing.

We have the same crap DL as last year, and we're looking at going to the season down a CB and at least one- if not 2- starting LB's WITH NO REPLACEMENTS. The only possible way to improve is through the draft- we tried that last year and actually gave up MORE rushing yards in 2006 than we did in 2005. Now, here we are needing replacements and/or upgrades to at least 4 defensive positions with only the draft and 3rd-tier FA's still available. The best draft in the history of the NFL won't make this D good this year.

[alohabillsfan]

Why is everyone fraking out about losing a LB that has not played in 17 of the last 32 games? Please, How many of you have been an NFL GM or Head Coach?

[justasportsfan]

Too bad. I would love for Spikes to stay but if the doctors think he'll never be the same + the fact that he wants out, then there's nothing we can do.

As far as replacing him goes, might as well get started now than next year. This makes our draft even more confusing and if that trade never happens, all this whining is for nothing again and again and again.....

[THATHURMANATOR]

I hear you camel but Spikes was a liability out there last year. I am sure they have analyzed him and are making a decision accordingly. I am not like the rest of these guys who believe the Bills and Ralph are trying to sabotage the team. I believe they are trying to make the best decisions they can.

Op when you try to use the same linebacker with an injured achiles don't expect different results.

[OpIv37]

Why is everyone fraking out about losing a LB that has not played in 17 of the last 32 games? Please, How many of you have been an NFL GM or Head Coach?

1. We already lost one LB and this would make 2
2. Our D was 27th against the run last year and we're not going to improve with guys who couldn't win the starting job over an LB who hasn't played in 17 of the last 32 games.
3. Spikes is still better than any of the guys behind him.

like I said, if Spikes can't cut it any more, fine, but REPLACE HIM. It's too late to replace him via FA now because all the guys who are equal or better are gone. And we still have to replace Fletcher in the draft- how many starting LB's are we supposed to find in one ****ing draft?

[camelcowboy]

Why is everyone fraking out about losing a LB that has not played in 17 of the last 32 games? Please, How many of you have been an NFL GM or Head Coach?
:stfu:
Then why bother having a opinion if your not a gm or a coach. Quick mods close down the boards people are posting their opinions and they have no gm or coaching expierence. What a garbage post.

[Dr. Lecter]

Good point Thurm.

Op always says if you keep doing the same thing that failed you will continue to get the same results.

So the Bills try something different and he *****es about it.

BTW, those rookies from last year should improve from year 1 to year 2. That is how it works in the NFL.

[OpIv37]

I hear you camel but Spikes was a liability out there last year. I am sure they have analyzed him and are making a decision accordingly. I am not like the rest of these guys who believe the Bills and Ralph are trying to sabotage the team. I believe they are trying to make the best decisions they can.

Op when you try to use the same linebacker with an injured achiles don't expect different results.

Don't lose players without replacing them and expect different results. Did we learn nothing from the Pat Williams incident?

[patmoran2006]

Too bad. I would love for Spikes to stay but if the doctors think he'll never be the same + the fact that he wants out, then there's nothing we can do.

As far as replacing him goes, might as well get started now than next year. This makes our draft even more confusing and if that trade never happens, all this whining is for nothing again and again and again.....
im thinking cash-to-cap + his $4 million plus salary has a lot more to do with it than a doctor.. He played well the last two games last year and he's still far better than any other LB we have who's name isnt Crowell.

If we trade him, I hope he gets back to the Pro Bowl and I hope its to a team on our schedule.

[OpIv37]

Good point Thurm.

Op always says if you keep doing the same thing that failed you will continue to get the same results.

So the Bills try something different and he *****es about it.

BTW, those rookies from last year should improve from year 1 to year 2. That is how it works in the NFL.

it's not different- it's the same ****. Losing players and replacing them with backups or rookies. It's a strategy that doesn't work. I'd rather take a chance on Spikes healing than have to find two starting LB's in one draft.

and our D was putrid last year. Players don't improve that much from one year to the next to turn the 27th ranked run D into a formidable one, especially when two (and now maybe 3) starters disappear without replacements.

[justasportsfan]

Don't lose players without replacing them you already know for sure he's not being replaced?

[patmoran2006]

Spikes had a season high and game-high 11 tackles in the season finale at Baltimore.

Did his medical condition get worse since then?

[justasportsfan]

im thinking cash-to-cap + his $4 million plus salary has a lot more to do with it than a doctor.. He played well the last two games last year and he's still far better than any other LB we have who's name isnt Crowell.

.

WRONG! If they paid Kelsay, Walker and Dockery all that cash don't you think that 4+ milion means nothing to them if they think Spikes will recover to 100%?

[Dr. Lecter]

If we trade him, I hope he gets back to the Pro Bowl and I hope its to a team on our schedule.

Usually I don't mind debating with you. We disagree, but we can go back and forth and I respect your opinion.

This statement makes you sound like:

1. A child that just had his lollipop taken away.
2. Somebody that is not a Bills fan.

Re-read what you wrote. You sound like an ass.

Personally, I would rather have Willis come in and be rookie of the year. But if you would rather root for a player than a team, be my guest.

[justasportsfan]

it's not different- it's the same ****. Losing players and replacing them with backups or rookies. It's a strategy that doesn't work. .


You telling me the jets were wrong in putting in D'Brick and Mangold? How about Whitner? I'm glad he was in there last year instead of Milloy.

[camelcowboy]

Spikes had a season high and game-high 11 tackles in the season finale at Baltimore.

Did his medical condition get worse since then? Yeah, i agree he played better but they spent alot of time running down the clock so take that with a grain of salt. Baltimore's offense was pretty bland. 6 of the tackles were probally on super speedy jamal lewis or that burner todd heap. all sarcasim aside. I do think spikes will be serviceable this year.

[Mr. Pink]

All this Takeo talk is beating a dead horse.

Either he's here BOO or he's not YaY next year.

I woulda dumped his crippled ass prior to last year, but that's just me.

At this point he's an old, mediocre, shell of himself that can be easily replaced. Getting in a tizzy over a guy that's medicore in this league today by hanging on to his past is senseless and a waste of time.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Don't lose players without replacing them and expect different results. Did we learn nothing from the Pat Williams incident?
Yes I learned that we gave up on a player who was a UFA at the top of his game that we should have held on to.

Spikes was terrible last year is under contract and is coming off an achiles tear. How is this similar in any way?

[patmoran2006]

WRONG! If they paid Kelsay, Walker and Dockery all that cash don't you think that 4+ milion means nothing to them if they think Spikes will recover to 100%?
umm.... YES!

They are spending "cash to cap".. They are just short of that limit right now, any FA signings means it will come at his expense..

Did you even read the article that this thread is derived from? Its states PRETTY CLEARLY the cash to cap and economics of it, and why Spikes is likely to be traded..

and as far as he devastating career injury, it was his hamstring that hindered him and cause him to miss 6 games last year, not his achiles. that could happen to ANYBODY. It slowed him down all year until near the end, as stated above, season finale against Balt he was flying around and had a game high 11 tackles. Has he secretly gotten WORSE since then?

People seem to forget what he could do on the FIRST PLAY of scrimmage before he hurt his hamstring.. Ask Tom Brady is Spikes is finished, after almost nearly taking his head off, forcing him to fumble and watching FLetch scoop it up for a TD.

You guys are crazy to try and make excuses for this FO it they trade Spikes.. CRAZY.

[Dr. Lecter]

And why is Kelsay overpaid, but Spikes is not?

[justasportsfan]

1. A child that just had his lollipop taken away.
2. Somebody that is not a Bills fan.

Re-read what you wrote. You sound like an ass.

.

yup, that was a stupid comment by Moran.

Spikes is my favorite player on the team, but I would never wish for a team to beat us because we let our player go to that team. That's just stupid.

Hey MORAN, Spikes initiated the trade. If he doesn't want to be here screw him.

Do us all a favor and go follow him to whatever team he moves to , if he's even traded.

[THATHURMANATOR]

All this Takeo talk is beating a dead horse.

Either he's here BOO or he's not YaY next here.

I woulda dumped his crippled ass prior to last year, but that's just me.

At this point he's an old, mediocre, shell of himself that can be easily replaced. Getting in a tizzy over a guy that's medicore in this league today by hanging on to his past is senseless and a waste of time.
:bf1:

[Dr. Lecter]

People seem to forget what he could do on the FIRST PLAY of scrimmage before he hurt his hamstring.. Ask Tom Brady is Spikes is finished, after almost nearly taking his head off, forcing him to fumble and watching FLetch scoop it up for a TD.




You seem to forget all of the games after the first play.

But I guess one play makes a career.

[Talk0fNewYork]

It's OK though. Because maybe I don't know ****, but I can GUARENTEE YOU THIS.. If this team is under .500 at or even near the bye, you can forget about seeing any games on television, this stadium will be missing 25,000 fans at least 3-4 home games.
Good Better Seats For Me!:dance:

[THATHURMANATOR]

You seem to forget all of the games after the first play.

But I guess one play makes a career.
Yeah is he serious with that? What about the 10 games after that when his hammy was healed and he was non existant?

[justasportsfan]

umm.... YES!

They are spending "cash to cap".. They are just short of that limit right now, any FA signings means it will come at his expense..

Did you even read the article that this thread is derived from? Its states PRETTY CLEARLY the cash to cap and economics of it, and why Spikes is likely to be traded..

and as far as he devastating career injury, it was his hamstring that hindered him and cause him to miss 6 games last year, not his achiles. that could happen to ANYBODY. It slowed him down all year until near the end, as stated above, season finale against Balt he was flying around and had a game high 11 tackles. Has he secretly gotten WORSE since then?

People seem to forget what he could do on the FIRST PLAY of scrimmage before he hurt his hamstring.. Ask Tom Brady is Spikes is finished, after almost nearly taking his head off, forcing him to fumble and watching FLetch scoop it up for a TD.

You guys are crazy to try and make excuses for this FO it they trade Spikes.. CRAZY.

You write articles, that doesn't mean I believe you.


next time read my posts. Where did I say he's done.?I want him here if he's 100% but neither you nor I know that.

[JoeMama]

I don't buy into the rumor that Spikes is on the trade block.

Like pat and Op already pointed out, it just wouldn't make sense to get rid of him.

I think he'll remain in Buffalo this season.

[OpIv37]

All this Takeo talk is beating a dead horse.

Either he's here BOO or he's not YaY next year.

I woulda dumped his crippled ass prior to last year, but that's just me.

At this point he's an old, mediocre, shell of himself that can be easily replaced. Getting in a tizzy over a guy that's medicore in this league today by hanging on to his past is senseless and a waste of time.

the problem is that the guys we have behind him are WORSE than mediocre.

[patmoran2006]

You seem to forget all of the games after the first play.

But I guess one play makes a career.
he hurt his ****ing HAMSTRING!!!!!!!! it could happen to anybody.

It took all of 4.3 seconds into the 2007 season to show that Spike was back before he hurt his hamstring.

Man.. You're nuts

[OpIv37]

Yes I learned that we gave up on a player who was a UFA at the top of his game that we should have held on to.

Spikes was terrible last year is under contract and is coming off an achiles tear. How is this similar in any way?

When you lose a starter for ANY reason- trade, injury, FA, doesn't matter- you need to replace him with ANOTHER STARTING CALIBER PLAYER. We don't have enough starting caliber linebackers as it is. As bad as Spikes was last year, he still wasn't benched, meaning the guy on the bench behind him is worse.

[patmoran2006]

HE HURT HIS ****ING HAMSTRING!!!!!!!!

[SquishDaFish]

Spikes isnt going anywere. Unless we get a GREAT deal for him. So seeing some news reporter is saying hes on the block that means hes traded already? What is this guy a fortune teller? He can tell the future?? Ask him how many wins we are going to have tis year or who we are drafting so I will know in advance. Thanx

[OpIv37]

you already know for sure he's not being replaced?

name ONE FA still available that we could afford who would be equal or better than Spikes. You can't because there isn't one.

Name two LB's (because we still need to replace Fletcher) that we can REASONBLY get in the draft who could both start on Day One, and keep in mind that this assumes they will both still be available when the Bills pick and that they won't be busts, which are by no means safe assumptions.

In other words, it's near impossible to replace him at this point.

[Mr. Pink]

Did it ever occur to you that he may have hurt his hamstring due to favoring his achilles? When you have one injury you tend to favor it, which in turn leaves you open to injuring other parts of your body. Due to moving your body in a different manner than what you are used to.

[justasportsfan]

name ONE FA still available that we could afford who would be equal or better than Spikes. You can't because there isn't one.

Name two LB's (because we still need to replace Fletcher) that we can REASONBLY get in the draft who could both start on Day One, and keep in mind that this assumes they will both still be available when the Bills pick and that they won't be busts, which are by no means safe assumptions.

In other words, it's near impossible to replace him at this point.

the draft? You're whining about someone who is a questionmark. although it not as bad as the Posey whines it's almost the same.

SPIKES WAS THE ONE WHO ASKED TO BE TRADED! If he isn't now, he's gone next year just like Fletcher. HELLOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

[OpIv37]

the draft? You're whining about someone who is a questionmark. although it not as bad as the Posey whines it's almost the same.

I'm whining about a position where we're already down one starter and about to go down two, from a D that was pretty bad as it was last year without these holes. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Our D sucked last year- how are we going to get better by losing guys without adding anyone? it's counterintuitive.

And as far as Posey last year, did we end up starting a rookie at LB last year? Did Coy Wire end up playing LB last year? Did our run D suck? All of those things happened, so it seems to me like a replacement for Posey may not have been as bad an idea as you made it sound.

[THATHURMANATOR]

HIS HAMSTRING HEALED AND HE PLAYED LIKE **** THE REST OF THE SEASON
HE HURT HIS ****ING HAMSTRING!!!!!!!!

[OpIv37]

SPIKES WAS THE ONE WHO ASKED TO BE TRADED! If he isn't now, he's gone next year just like Fletcher. HELLOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I'm not worried about NEXT year- I'm worried about THIS year. Keeping Spikes now would give Ellison and whoever we draft this year a chance to improve, plus give us a brand new FA period to sign or trade for someone if those things don't happen.

[Earthquake Enyart]

I don't know who we're gonna get to pick up his salary.

He has waivers written all over him.

[OpIv37]

HIS HAMSTRING HEALED AND HE PLAYED LIKE **** THE REST OF THE SEASON

Who on our roster is better? Who is still available that is better? Answer: No one.

Can you guarantee that we can find someone better in the draft? Answer: No.

Therefore, we need to keep him until a suitable replacement is found.

[mayotm]

Spikes isnt going anywere. Unless we get a GREAT deal for him. So seeing some news reporter is saying hes on the block that means hes traded already? What is this guy a fortune teller? He can tell the future?? Ask him how many wins we are going to have tis year or who we are drafting so I will know in advance. ThanxI guess you've forgotten that Pat gets completely bent about every mock draft and rumor. Most of his rants are about things that never happen.

[SquishDaFish]

HE ISNT GOING ANYWHERE AT THE MOMENT. OVEREACT WHEN IT DOES HAPPEN IF IT HAPPENS!!!

[justasportsfan]

I'm not worried about NEXT year- I'm worried about THIS year. Keeping Spikes now would give Ellison and whoever we draft this year a chance to improve, plus give us a brand new FA period to sign or trade for someone if those things don't happen.


If you're not worried about the future then forget about the draft and just keep trading our picks for FA's? NO!!

Experience also gives these rookies a chance to get better. The very example you used is proof, Ellison. Again, Whitner, D'Brick, and Mangold. Helloo!!!


Do you guys even realize that Spikes has the same complaints that Fletcher had about not extending his contract in the last year of that contract? Don't you guys think he'll bail just like Fletcher because of it. If his injury isn't a questionmark or was a probowler last year, I'm sure they would've extended his contract.


What then? You'll start b!tching again next year? Sheez, therre's no winning with you guys. You'll always find something to CRY about.

[OpIv37]

HE ISNT GOING ANYWHERE AT THE MOMENT. OVEREACT WHEN IT DOES HAPPEN IF IT HAPPENS!!!

just the fact that they're even thinking about this is worthy of a reaction because at this point, it's such a dumb idea. I'd really like to know how this D is going to get better.

[Gunzlingr]

HE ISNT GOING ANYWHERE AT THE MOMENT. OVEREACT WHEN IT DOES HAPPEN IF IT HAPPENS!!!

These ******s in this get all wound up when ever a the rumor wind blows.
Worry about it if it happens, and not before. The media just makes this crap up, just like the trade they all were reporting last week between GB and Oak that was supposed to happen by last weekend. They were completely full of crap then, and they probably are now.

[justasportsfan]

just the fact that they're even thinking about this is worthy of a reaction because at this point, it's such a dumb idea. .

BLAME SPIKES . He asked to be traded. The guy has one foot out the door.Get that in your head.


If he isn't traded this year, you'll b!tch about his replacement being a rookie in next years draft.

[JoeMama]

I also disagree with the assumption that the 2006 version of TKO is the final version.

Players can recover from an achilles injury. It just takes an extra year.

I'll say it a hundred times.

Julian Peterson.

[Mr. Pink]

And Players become shells of themself.

Sam Cowart.

Or end up like Takeo and injuring other parts of their body and then retire.

Jamir Miller.

[patmoran2006]

And Players become shells of themself.

Sam Cowart.

Or end up like Takeo and injuring other parts of their body and then retire.

Jamir Miller.
piss off wanker

PS I hope you (Browns) draft AP and he breaks his ankle in camp.

[justasportsfan]

piss off wanker

PS I hope you (Browns) draft AP and he breaks his ankle in camp.

REALLY CLassy , ICEwannabe. :coocoo:


There's no place on BZ for posts like these.

[OpIv37]

If you're not worried about the future then forget about the draft and just keep trading our picks for FA's? NO!!

Experience also gives these rookies a chance to get better. The very example you used is proof, Ellison. Again, Whitner, D'Brick, and Mangold. Helloo!!!


Do you guys even realize that Spikes has the same complaints that Fletcher had about not extending his contract in the last year of that contract? Don't you guys think he'll bail just like Fletcher because of it. If his injury isn't a questionmark or was a probowler last year, I'm sure they would've extended his contract.


What then? You'll start b!tching again next year? Sheez, therre's no winning with you guys. You'll always find something to CRY about.

experience to get better at the EXPENSE of the 2007 season. Keep Spikes. Draft a rookie. Work the rookie and Ellison in slowly with Spikes over the course of the season (one will probably be starting anyway cuz we lost Fletch). Then NEXT year , cut Spikes and go with Ellison and the rookie. Thinking about the future does not always have to be at the expense of the present. You're making things too black and white again.

[Dr. Lecter]

HE HURT HIS ****ING HAMSTRING!!!!!!!!

Which was likely due to his Achille's.

If I had my choice, he would stay. However, he is not the end of the world loss you are making him out to be.

[Dr. Lecter]

piss off wanker

PS I hope you (Browns) draft AP and he breaks his ankle in camp.

Calm down Pat.

[OpIv37]

Which was likely due to his Achille's.

If I had my choice, he would stay. However, he is not the end of the world loss you are making him out to be.

yeah but on a D that sucked last year and already sustained two losses, it might be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. If we lose Spikes, McGee becomes the most experienced player in our back 7.

[TigerJ]

Keeping Spikes is a huge risk. He's expensive and it is unknown whether or not he can come back to his pre-injury effectiveness. If he's not somewhere close to that, Buffalo does not have a reliable linebacking corps.

Trading Spikes is also risky. With his salary and injury questions, nobody is going to offer much in return. Without Spikes, Buffalo does not have three starters on its roster. You can argue whether or not Keith Ellison will be an effective starter, though he did well in relief for a rookie second day draft pick. Buffalo will have to use a day one draft choice on a linebacker, though Crowell's flexibility gives Buffalo some flexibility as to whether that is a MLB or an OLB.

They have to make a decision one way or another. In view of the fact that both options carry significant risk, I'm not going to crucify them for their decision, though they'll have to live with my disgruntlement along with everyone else's down the road f they make the wrong one.

[JoeMama]

And Players become shells of themself.

Sam Cowart.

Or end up like Takeo and injuring other parts of their body and then retire.

Jamir Miller.

Some players recover, some don't.

My point is, it's not a foregone conclusion that TKO is finished.

That's why you give him another year.

Jamal Lewis tore his ACL in 2001 then rushed for 2,000 yards in 2003 - two years removed from his injury.

Julian Peterson tore his achilles in 2004 then had the best season of his career in 2006 - two years removed from his injury.

Now is not the time to quit on TKO.

Serious injuries like this deserve a two year window to return to 100%.

[justasportsfan]

experience to get better at the EXPENSE of the 2007 season. Keep Spikes. Draft a rookie. Work the rookie and Ellison in slowly with Spikes over the course of the season (one will probably be starting anyway cuz we lost Fletch). Then NEXT year , cut Spikes and go with Ellison and the rookie. Thinking about the future does not always have to be at the expense of the present. You're making things too black and white again.
By your logic , if using a rookie is at the expense of the 2007 , if we go with next years rookie that too will be at the expense of 2008?

Like I said, you'll b!tch then about your own logic.


Ellison was worked in slowly last year. So was Whitner and Simpson. SPIKES ASKED TO BE TRADED. Get that in your head. If he's gone next year, might as well deal with it NOW. Not next year just so you'll have something to whine abut again then.

[JoeMama]

SPIKES ASKED TO BE TRADED.

If I remember correctly, that was reported as a rumor.

[OpIv37]

By your logic , if using a rookie is at the expense of the 2007 , if we go with next years rookie that too will be at the expense of 2008?

Like I said, you'll b!tch then about your own logic.


Ellison was worked in slowly last year. So was Whitner and Simpson. SPIKES ASKED TO BE TRADED. Get that in your head. If he's gone next year, might as well deal with it NOW. Not next year just so you'll have something to whine abut again then.

why would we deal him NOW when we don't have any other options at his position? Get a rookie this year and if necessary, an FA next year to replace him, but in the meantime keep him here so we don't have yet another hole on D.

He signed the contract. And he's an idiot for wanting to get traded because who's going to pay his salary at that level of play? If anyone does trade for him, my guess is that they demand a re-negotiation first.

Ellison was worked in slowly because we had Spikes and Fletcher. Simpson was worked in slowly because we started the season with Vincent. Without Spikes, we don't even have enough bodies to work a rookie in slowly. A rookie LB will have to start due to lack of other options.

[acehole]

The magic about the cover 2 is that both the LB and the DT and to some degree the CB's.....are faster smaller players. this allows them to slip in the draft some because other systems require large player. IE Buster Davis ILB...great production but 5 -9...if he were 6 ft he would be at the bottom of round 1. We can get him at the end of round 2 or even 3. We could potenitally get 3 starting quality LB's and a RB in day one of this draft.

[OpIv37]

The magic about the cover 2 is that both the LB and the DT and to some degree the CB's.....are faster smaller players. this allows them to slip in the draft some because other systems require large player. IE Buster Davis ILB...great production but 5 -9...if he were 6 ft he would be at the bottom of round 1. We can get him at the end of round 2 or even 3. We could potenitally get 3 starting quality LB's and a RB in day one of this draft.

and he's still a rookie who will make rookie mistakes, which is why we need to keep Spikes so we can work any draft picks in slowly and not sacrifice the season while they get experience.

[mayotm]

Keeping Spikes is a huge risk. He's expensive and it is unknown whether or not he can come back to his pre-injury effectiveness. If he's not somewhere close to that, Buffalo does not have a reliable linebacking corps.

Trading Spikes is also risky. With his salary and injury questions, nobody is going to offer much in return. Without Spikes, Buffalo does not have three starters on its roster. You can argue whether or not Keith Ellison will be an effective starter, though he did well in relief for a rookie second day draft pick. Buffalo will have to use a day one draft choice on a linebacker, though Crowell's flexibility gives Buffalo some flexibility as to whether that is a MLB or an OLB.

They have to make a decision one way or another. In view of the fact that both options carry significant risk, I'm not going to crucify them for their decision, though they'll have to live with my disgruntlement along with everyone else's down the road f they make the wrong one.One of the more rational posts that I've seen in quite some time.

[jamze132]

Stupid ass idea for Buffalo to get rid of Spikes. He will get over 100 tackles next year, proving that he is healthy again.

[justasportsfan]

If I remember correctly, that was reported as a rumor.

just like the article that OP and Moran are whining about?


I have an idea.Just like Spikes , Culpeckers injury is a questionmark and was a former probowler.

Let's grab him when the fins cut him.

[patmoran2006]

Calm down Pat.
he's one of my best friends in "real life".

He knows Im just.........serious

[madness]

If they do this. If Spikes can play.

Until it happens can we wait to whine, cry and over-react?

One would think pre-FA hissy fits that were unfounded would get people to calm down.

And if Ralph is cheap, then why the **** are you *****ing about over-paying for Walker?????

Is Ralph a cheap, over-paying bastard?

This post rings so true it's sicking. That last comment should be the new slogan of this forum. Absolutely classic.

I'm not one to speculate but I'm going to anyway...

Spikes is rumored to be on the trading block. What if we could get another first day pick? Willis is projected to go middle to late. On his pro day, Willis drops weight and runs a great 40 time. Could he be coming to Buffalo?

Ellison-Crowell-Willis??? Minus a DT and AY stepping up to win the job, I think the defense would be set.

[OpIv37]

Ellison-Crowell-Willis??? Minus a DT and AY stepping up to win the job, I think defense would be set.

you're insane.

Ellison was mediocre last year, Crowell is good but not dominant, and Willis is a rookie who will be prone to rookie mistakes. That will be a good LB core for 2009 and maybe even 2008, but it will get us killed in 2007.

And what if we don't get Willis? Then we're totally hosed.

[justasportsfan]

why would we deal him NOW when we don't have any other options at his position? Get a rookie this year and if necessary, an FA next year to replace him, but in the meantime keep him here so we don't have yet another hole on D.

He signed the contract. And he's an idiot for wanting to get traded because who's going to pay his salary at that level of play? If anyone does trade for him, my guess is that they demand a re-negotiation first.

Ellison was worked in slowly because we had Spikes and Fletcher. Simpson was worked in slowly because we started the season with Vincent. Without Spikes, we don't even have enough bodies to work a rookie in slowly. A rookie LB will have to start due to lack of other options.

what if there are no options next year when he leaves? I know, let's draft one then at the expense of the 2008 season. You're gonna whine again.

OP, we don't even know how Spikes will do this year. IF he busts you're gonna whine again and blame FO.

There's no winning with you. Ellison got worked in because Spikes was useless and because we got rid of POSEY. remember him, the guy you whined about? I'm glad we got rid of his useless ass.

As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure that if Ellison was in there , he'd be better today. But we put a hobbling Spikes in there because he was a penciled starter by default.

I'm done. You can continue to whine about an article that's neither here nor there.

[OpIv37]

what if there are no options next year when he leaves? I know, let's draft one then at the expense of the 2008 season. You're gonna whine again.

OP, we don't even know how Spikes will do this year. IF he busts you're gonna whine again and blame FO.

There's no winning with you. Ellison got worked in because Spikes was useless. As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure that if Ellison was in there , he'd be better today. But we put a hobbling Spikes in there because he was a penciled starter by default.

I'm done. You can continue to whine about an article that's neither here nor there.

If this team is going to win, this team has to get better. How is that going to happen if we keep losing guys?

If Spikes isn't good enough anymore, fine- REPLACE HIM. If Ellison is Spikes' replacement, who's Fletcher's replacement? This D is in dire straits and there aren't too many options left for fixing it.

[JoeMama]

just like the article that OP and Moran are whining about?

?

I don't see what that has to do with me.

But as I said earlier in this thread, the trade rumors are just that. Rumors.

I personally don't buy into them yet.



I have an idea.Just like Spikes , Culpeckers injury is a questionmark and was a former probowler.

Let's grab him when the fins cut him.

Super.

My main point is that injuries of this nature take more than one year to heal.

If TKO is subpar again in 2007, then fine, his tenure in Buffalo is over.

But it would be unwise to cut or trade him right now - we don't know if he's finished or not.

I'd hate to see him pull a Julian Peterson with another team.

[Tatonka]

If they were going to trade Spikes they shoulda done it earlier..When they ere better FA's to replace him with.

At THIS point, its 100% an ECONOMIC MOVE .. nothing more

that is the part that infuriates me.. with as much room as we have, without all this cap to cash bull****, there is NO REASON TO CUT ANYONE for money purposes.

if they cut him based on HEALTH then i can live with that, but if this is truely a money issue, then i dont give a **** about the 100 million they have invested in our Oline.. they are ****ing cheap asses in my book.

4 million a year is nothing.. that 4 million a year = josh reed and peerless price.

are you kidding me?

[patmoran2006]

that is the part that infuriates me.. with as much room as we have, without all this cap to cash bull****, there is NO REASON TO CUT ANYONE for money purposes.

if they cut him based on HEALTH then i can live with that, but if this is truely a money issue, then i dont give a **** about the 100 million they have invested in our Oline.. they are ****ing cheap asses in my book.

4 million a year is nothing.. that 4 million a year = josh reed and peerless price.

are you kidding me?
Thank you.
Best post I've seen on here in WEEKS

[justasportsfan]

?

I don't see what that has to do with me.. You quoted me so I quoted you :D.


?But as I said earlier in this thread, the trade rumors are just that. Rumors.

I personally don't buy into them yet. . Exactly. Which is why people are saying that OP and Moran are whining over a rumor.




?

Super.

My main point is that injuries of this nature take more than one year to heal.

If TKO is subpar again in 2007, then fine, his tenure in Buffalo is over.

But it would be unwise to cut or trade him right now - we don't know if he's finished or not.

I'd hate to see him pull a Julian Peterson with another team.

I don't disagree with you. I want Spikes to stay and play the last year of his contract. I'm willing to risk that cap no and a roster spot just to find out if he'll ever be the same again because Spikes is that special but that's not for us to determine. I am not a doctor and neither are Moran and OP but they talk like our FO is stupid and trying to sabotage the team intentionally .

[Tatonka]

You telling me the jets were wrong in putting in D'Brick and Mangold? How about Whitner? I'm glad he was in there last year instead of Milloy.

ok.. that is a pretty good point..

but your talking about the jets replacing average players with 1st round picks.. same with the bills.. the bills replaced an old average safety with a high first round pick.

how many first round picks do we have this year? 1.. with multiple spots to fill. spikes departure just makes that worse, and after seeing how he finished the season, i just cant see him not being better this year.

[madness]

you're insane.

Ellison was mediocre last year, Crowell is good but not dominant, and Willis is a rookie who will be prone to rookie mistakes. That will be a good LB core for 2009 and maybe even 2008, but it will get us killed in 2007.

And what if we don't get Willis? Then we're totally hosed.

Marv's goal is to win the SB. Do you honestly expect us to wave a magic wand and do it in 2007? Let me answer that for you. No, you don't. Granted the defense wasn't great last year, it still was a good step up from the year before. If you think the defense would do worse this year then last, all your claims about London and Nate go out the window. Ellison and Willis are great upgrades over Spikes and Fletcher when your defense requires fast attacking LB's.

Like I said, it was speculation. If we really wanted Willis, I'm sure a TKO trade could have us swap up a couple spots or actually wouldn't happen until draft day. Marv wouldn't get caught with his pants down.

[Tatonka]

And why is Kelsay overpaid, but Spikes is not?

because spikes has actually made a play in the nfl before.. kelsay never has.

[acehole]

Writing is on the wall for spikes...older player from a forgotten system getting payed to much? Not like we are going out on a limb with this rumor. It is the current trend. I believe we will see what happens after day one...ie which LB we get...and he will be unloaded on Day 2 to Dallas or some other team on the edge for a 5 th or 6th rounder. Folks we are in year 2 of a 3 year plan....let the Rookie LB's we get in this draft and youbooty and Mcargo get some time. This ....all of this is ground work for 2008. Sorry to burst your bubbles...get rid of Spikes and use his pick to move up in round 4 or somthing like that...cut the losses and move on.



?

I don't see what that has to do with me.

But as I said earlier in this thread, the trade rumors are just that. Rumors.

I personally don't buy into them yet.




Super.

My main point is that injuries of this nature take more than one year to heal.

If TKO is subpar again in 2007, then fine, his tenure in Buffalo is over.

But it would be unwise to cut or trade him right now - we don't know if he's finished or not.

I'd hate to see him pull a Julian Peterson with another team.

[Tatonka]

SPIKES WAS THE ONE WHO ASKED TO BE TRADED! If he isn't now, he's gone next year just like Fletcher. HELLOOOOOO!!!!!!!!


can someone show me where spikes has ever said anything bad about buffalo or anything about ever wanting to play somewhere else?

i personally have never read or heard him say he wants to be traded.

[justasportsfan]

ok.. that is a pretty good point..

but your talking about the jets replacing average players with 1st round picks.. same with the bills.. the bills replaced an old average safety with a high first round pick.

how many first round picks do we have this year? 1.. with multiple spots to fill. spikes departure just makes that worse, and after seeing how he finished the season, i just cant see him not being better this year.tatonka, that post was just a rebuttle to OP's post that replacing players with rookies does not work.

So far, replacing Wire/Milloy with Ko Simpson and replacing Posey with Ellison worked. Niether rookies were first rd. picks.

Again, I am all for keeping Spikes. If you asked me if there's any player in the entire NFL that could get back to form like Peterson did, it would be Spikes but none of us know where he's at with his injury or whether Spikes wants to stay in buffalo in the future. We don't know that so I am not ogonna over react to it.

[justasportsfan]

can someone show me where spikes has ever said anything bad about buffalo or anything about ever wanting to play somewhere else?

i personally have never read or heard him say he wants to be traded.as far as I'm concerend , I head it on NFLN. Don't have a link.

[JoeMama]

Writing is on the wall for spikes...older player from a forgotten system getting payed to much? Not like we are going out on a limb with this rumor. It is the current trend. I believe we will see what happens after day one...ie which LB we get...and he will be unloaded on Day 2 to Dallas or some other team on the edge for a 5 th or 6th rounder. Folks we are in year 2 of a 3 year plan....let the Rookie LB's we get in this draft and youbooty and Mcargo get some time. This ....all of this is ground work for 2008. Sorry to burst your bubbles...get rid of Spikes and use his pick to move up in round 4 or somthing like that...cut the losses and move on.

Obviously, I disagree.

I think it's short-sighted to quit on Spikes at this point.

2007 will determine if he's done or not.

And since we're unlikely to find a better replacement immediately, I don't see a valid reason why we wouldn't give him one more year.

[Tatonka]

I'm not worried about NEXT year- I'm worried about THIS year. Keeping Spikes now would give Ellison and whoever we draft this year a chance to improve, plus give us a brand new FA period to sign or trade for someone if those things don't happen.

i dont follow.. your saying ellison should be on the bench?

how does a linebacker get better on the bench?

i posted that email by chris brown that he responded to my question about ellison.

the bills love him. they love his smarts and his speed. there is a very strong chance that ellison starts this year regardless of who is on the team.

[JoeMama]

Posey with Ellison worked. Niether rookies were first rd. picks.


One minor correction.

Angelo Crowell replaced Jeff Posey.

Which I agree was a fantastic move.

Ellison was OK for a rookie, but I don't know if I'm ready to see him start full-time.

[Tatonka]

piss off wanker

PS I hope you (Browns) draft AP and he breaks his ankle in camp.

wow.. come on pat.. are you kidding me?

i think you need to go to the corner for time out..

are you 5?

[Dr. Lecter]

he's one of my best friends in "real life".

He knows Im just.........serious

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you have friends.......

[justasportsfan]

One minor correction.

Angelo Crowell replaced Jeff Posey.

Which I agree was a fantastic move.

Ellison was OK for a rookie, but I don't know if I'm ready to see him start full-time.

Either ways, that was what OP was whining about. That we let Posey go without a replacement only to find out it was a great move.

I'm not saying that ,that's gonna happen again if we trade Spikes but who's to say it won't happen again if he's traded?

In the end just like about the OL, they could both be crying about nothing.

[BillsFever21]

Why is everyone fraking out about losing a LB that has not played in 17 of the last 32 games? Please, How many of you have been an NFL GM or Head Coach?

So that must mean that if you're an NFL GM and you make a bad move that fans or columnist criticize then obviously the GM must be right because the fans and columnist have never been a GM.

I guess there has never been a bad GM or a GM that made a bad move around here. That is unless it's not the Bills GM. If other teams made some of the moves the Bills have done then the same people would be laughing at them. Because it's the Bills though it's a good move.

[Tatonka]

as far as I'm concerend , I head it on NFLN. Don't have a link.

i tivo and watch nfln every night.. i never once heard anything like that. ever.

dont you think if tko said he wanted out that there would be a news article quoting it i cant find one. that is all i am sayin.

[madness]

i dont follow.. your saying ellison should be on the bench?

how does a linebacker get better on the bench?

i posted that email by chris brown that he responded to my question about ellison.

the bills love him. they love his smarts and his speed. there is a very strong chance that ellison starts this year regardless of who is on the team.

Apparently that's not good enough for some people. They want probowl type of play out of every position.

[OpIv37]

i dont follow.. your saying ellison should be on the bench?

how does a linebacker get better on the bench?

i posted that email by chris brown that he responded to my question about ellison.

the bills love him. they love his smarts and his speed. there is a very strong chance that ellison starts this year regardless of who is on the team.

Ellison will be playing in Fletcher's place- Ellison, Crowell, and a rookie sharing time with Spikes. Honestly I'm not sold on Ellison but he did well enough last year that he deserves his shot.

And BTW, Ellison-Crowell-Spikes or Ellison-Crowell-Willis are both one injury away from complete disaster.

[OpIv37]

Apparently that's not good enough for some people. They want probowl type of play out of every position.

not pro-bowl, just guys better than Haggan, Stamer, Digiorgio and Wire or rookies who have never played in the NFL, which is all we have if we lose Spikes.

I don't see why that's so hard for you to understand.

[Tatonka]

Ellison will be playing in Fletcher's place- Ellison, Crowell, and a rookie sharing time with Spikes. Honestly I'm not sold on Ellison but he did well enough last year that he deserves his shot.

And BTW, Ellison-Crowell-Spikes or Ellison-Crowell-Willis are both one injury away from complete disaster.


ellison is not replacing anyone.. ellison, if starting, per chris brown, will stay at WSLB which is where he was most of last year (other than spot duty at SSLB when spikes was in and out).

so ellison is the weakside (where crowell was).

crowell replaces fletcher at middle line backer (which is crowells natural position that he has played all through college and backed up fletch in the pros for 2 years)

spikes is the strong side.. if he gets cut.. we need a strong side linebacker..

[OpIv37]

ellison is not replacing anyone.. ellison, if starting, per chris brown, will stay at WSLB which is where he was most of last year (other than spot duty at SSLB when spikes was in and out).

so ellison is the weakside (where crowell was).

crowell replaces fletcher at middle line backer (which is crowells natural position that he has played all through college and backed up fletch in the pros for 2 years)

spikes is the strong side.. if he gets cut.. we need a strong side linebacker..

six one one hand, half dozen on the other- the end result is that Fletcher's out and Ellison's starting.

We need a SS LB whether we lose Spikes or not because we have no depth- losing Spikes just makes it an even bigger priority.

Right now, LB is looking extremely weak for us.

[Tatonka]

i actually like stamer alot.

[Philagape]

And if Ralph is cheap, then why the **** are you *****ing about over-paying for Walker?????

Is Ralph a cheap, over-paying bastard?


If Ralph doesn't spend as much as he's allowed to under NFL cap rules, then he's cheap. That's what cash-to-cap is all about.

How the FO decides to spend what money they have says nothing about Ralph.

Cheapness is not defined or refuted by individual contracts, but can be evaluated only on the totality of spending.

[madness]

not pro-bowl, just guys better than Haggan, Stamer, Digiorgio and Wire or rookies who have never played in the NFL, which is all we have if we lose Spikes.

I don't see why that's so hard for you to understand.

Actually that one wasn't aimed toward you. I see your point but rookies, 2nd year, 3rd year, etc. earn starting positions replacing average or declining players every year throughout the league. It's not like this is a new concept and it's not like they are learning to play football for the first time. They been playing this game most of their life and had to adjust to the next level numerous times.

[OpIv37]

Actually that one wasn't aimed toward you. I see your point but rookies, 2nd year, 3rd year, etc. earn starting positions replacing average or declining players every year throughout the league. It's not like this is a new concept and it's not like they are learning to play football for the first time. They been playing this game most of their life and had to adjust to the next level numerous times.
The problem is that one of those guys replaced Posey last year and another has to replace Fletch this year and maybe Spikes this year as well. I understand your point but no team has the kind of depth to replace three starting LB's in a 2 year period with just rookies and the current roster. I just don't think any of the guys on the bench are anywhere close to being ready to start.

[Dr. Lecter]

If Ralph doesn't spend as much as he's allowed to under NFL cap rules, then he's cheap. That's what cash-to-cap is all about.

How the FO decides to spend what money they have says nothing about Ralph.

Cheapness is not defined or refuted by individual contracts, but can be evaluated only on the totality of spending.

Spending as much as the rules allow in any one year is what gets teams into cap hell. Spending to spend is stupid and does not help either. It is more important to spend wisely than to spend every cent available.

[Philagape]

Spending as much as the rules allow in any one year is what gets teams into cap hell. Spending to spend is stupid and does not help either. It is more important to spend wisely than to spend every cent available.

Maybe so, but that's a different argument. That's going from "Ralph is not cheap" to "It's OK to be cheap."

Spending money wisely is great. But are we not spending money because we've decided that moves we could have made but didn't wouldn't be wise? Or is it because Ralph simply didn't want to spend the money under any circumstances?

More succinctly put, is our non-spending because of football reasons or economic reasons? If it's football wisdom, great; if it's just to save money, then we're cheap.

[patmoran2006]

Spending as much as the rules allow in any one year is what gets teams into cap hell. Spending to spend is stupid and does not help either. It is more important to spend wisely than to spend every cent available.
When a team is 21 games UNDER .500 over the last seven years, nor hasn't so much as sniffed a playoff game.

It's not spending to spend. Its spending to get better.

Ralph is just flat out cheap.. Kelsay, Walker, Dockery have nothing to do with WIlson.. he gave marv a bottom line cash to cap budget to sign whomever he wanted to sign; and thats simply the way it is.

If we signed 14 Free Agents or 2.. Whatever the "Cash to Cap" limit is, that's what we're going to spend.

Unless Ralph "moves on" or sells the team, its never going to change. EVery year we'll simply be spending pretty much all of FA on the 1-2 prime FA's of our own, or drafting for the sole purpose of replacing valuable departed vets.

And so on.. and so on.

Until we get a better own in touch with the times (and one who will keep the team here) and a GM who's a little more proven as a GM.. What you seen last year, this and probably next is just par for the course.. like I wrote the other day.. A merry go round of medicrioty.

Riddle me this batman.. We resign $1.15 million per sack Klumpy Kelsay and give Walker money... And then we pretty much elevate Kiwi Thomas and Anthony Thomas to starters.. Guys who weren't even good enough to start on the team last year that had a LOSING record?

And this team is better than last year?

[Michael82]

I don't see this happening unless they get a 2nd rounder for him. There's no way that they would cut him either. :shakeno:

[patmoran2006]

To make a long story short..

Had we spent more money and upgraded more spots that are ultra-weak right now (RB, FB, CB, DT, LB, WR) and then had another strong draft we'd be a contender.

I"m not talking the most expensive or "name" player at each position. But just a couple of good starting FA' I can name you plenty that signed with other teams that weren't monster deals that would've been great help to us.. .

But we didnt do that.. NOt even close.. Nobody in their right mind can expect a single DRAFT to produce enough guys good enough as ROOKIES to make this team a legit contender.

[madness]

Spending as much as the rules allow in any one year is what gets teams into cap hell. Spending to spend is stupid and does not help either. It is more important to spend wisely than to spend every cent available.

So spending as much as the rules allow is like maxing out your personal line of credit then. Then that explains how the majority of people can't understand the grand concept of spending your money wisely.

[Philagape]

If the FO decides "That player's not worth it" based on how they evaluate him as a football player, then it's wise non-spending.

If the decision is out of the FO's hands because they don't have the money to sign a guy they would have if Ralph played by the same rules as other NFL teams, then it's cheapness.

[patmoran2006]

So spending as much as the rules allow is like maxing out your personal line of credit then. Then that explains how the majority of people can't understand the grand concept of spending your money wisely.
Putting a team out there that is ****ty year after year to the point that fans are FED up with and FOUR straight games get blacked out-- is NOT saving/spending your money wisely.

Do you think if this is a 5-6 win team in 2007 that attendance will be better? Do you think last year was an accident? Ummm, no. Generally speaking, fans are fed up with the crap product.

How many games besides the 4 Bills home games in the ENTIRE NFL were blacked out last year locally?

[Dr. Lecter]

To make a long story short..

Had we spent more money and upgraded more spots that are ultra-weak right now (RB, FB, CB, DT, LB, WR) and then had another strong draft we'd be a contender.

I"m not talking the most expensive or "name" player at each position. But just a couple of good starting FA' I can name you plenty that signed with other teams that weren't monster deals that would've been great help to us.. .

But we didnt do that.. NOt even close.. Nobody in their right mind can expect a single DRAFT to produce enough guys good enough as ROOKIES to make this team a legit contender.

Name those players. And tell me how it is possible to sign all of the FA's you want when there are 31 other teams looking at guys.

And Ralph is not cheap:

Sam Adams
Spikes
Milloy
Mike Williams
Moulds
Dockery (funny, how you have morphed into the idea that when they spend money it has nothing to do with the old coot)
Fletcher

[patmoran2006]

Name those players. And tell me how it is possible to sign all of the FA's you want when there are 31 other teams looking at guys.

And Ralph is not cheap:

Sam Adams
Spikes
Milloy
Mike Williams
Moulds
Dockery (funny, how you have morphed into the idea that when they spend money it has nothing to do with the old coot)
Fletcher
how many years ago was it we signed any of those guys but Dockery?

LIke I said with DOckery.. whether it was 2 Dockery's or 14 Matt Bowens, we were spending CASH TO CAP all along.. So what the hell is the difference?

[Philagape]

Spending money is no credit when we could spend more. That's the relevant comparison: How much we spend vs. how much we could spend.

As with all things NFL-related, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. If we had a top-notch FO, they could make it work, could they not? Good GMs can masterfully manipulate the cap to spend freely and not end up in cap hell, and they can find the right players. We may have such men running our team, but we'll never know if Ralph keeps a tight leash on them.

[madness]

Putting a team out there that is ****ty year after year to the point that fans are FED up with and FOUR straight games get blacked out-- is NOT saving/spending your money wisely.

Do you think if this is a 5-6 win team in 2007 that attendance will be better? Do you think last year was an accident? Ummm, no. Generally speaking, fans are fed up with the crap product.

How many games besides the 4 Bills home games in the ENTIRE NFL were blacked out last year locally?

Time to put the cat in the microwave.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=95713

[HAMMER]

Someone please feed the twins, Opi and Moron.

[patmoran2006]

Someone please feed the twins, Opi and Moron.
http://www.thewarforge.com/uploaded/sa/******%5B1%5D.jpg

[OpIv37]

Someone please feed the twins, Opi and Moron.

real mature.

Please explain to me how our D is going to improve by losing 2 and maybe 3 starters and adding NO ONE.

[BAM]

fit right in to the tune of the 27th ranked D? It's not like our rookies plugged right in and did well last year. They did well FOR ROOKIES, but that's not the same as doing well. And the draft is always a gamble. You never know if a) the guy you want is going to be there or b) the guy you get is going to be a bust. Cutting/trading Spikes at this point is stupid.


We were ranked 10th in points given up. Not bad actually.

[patmoran2006]

real mature.

Please explain to me how our D is going to improve by losing 2 and maybe 3 starters and adding NO ONE.
Don't bother with him.. He's a self-admitted tool who knows nothing about football.

[OpIv37]

We were ranked 10th in points given up. Not bad actually.

but that doesn't matter when a) our offense can't score and b) our D can't get off the field because it can't stop the run. If other teams can score 17 and beat us because they still managed to control the clock for 40 minutes, I'm sure they won't have a problem with that. Make no mistake about it- our D was awful last year.

[BAM]

If our offense is better this year, which I expect it to be, and our D plays even a little better than they did last year, we'll win more games. 9-7 at least.

[patmoran2006]

If our offense is better this year, which I expect it to be, and our D plays even a little better than they did last year, we'll win more games. 9-7 at least.
you're taking into account both the Patriots and Jets have CLEARLY improved through FA, and they also have four first day picks like we do.........and you're also taking into account we have a MUCH tougher schedule than last year..

Right?

[BAM]

But of course!

I have put my trust into the Marv.

[JoeMama]

We were ranked 10th in points given up. Not bad actually.

God damn, that's pretty good.

I didn't realize that.

Our defense only allowed 19.4 points per game.

As a reference, we only allowed 17.4 in 2004 when our D was universally considered top ten.

That's really ****ing encouraging.

Looks like we have a "bend but don't break" type defense.

Much like the 1998 NY Jets, which was an effective unit.

If JP Losman and the offense can get it together, maybe we're better off in 2007 than I originally thought.

[patmoran2006]

NO offense.. But Im so sick of hearing that.. Almost as sick of some of you are of hearing me.

When marv puts on some shoulder pads and drills Laurence Maroney behind the line of scrimmage, I will "trust the marv".

Until then, his first year of FA was pretty much a failure, while Whitner and McCArgo are definitely good prospects he left two immediate monsters off the board in Ngata and Mangold.

ANd the moves this year, or lack thereof is curious at best.

I love Marv, I could tell you many great Marv stories. But as a GM, I will trust the Marv when I see a playoff game.

[patmoran2006]

God damn!

I didn't realize that.

Our defense only allowed 19.4 points per game.

That's really ****ing encouraging - I think it just made my day.

Looks like we have a "bend but don't break" type defense.

Must like the 1998 NY Jets, which was effective.

If JP Losman and the offense can get it together, maybe we're better off in 2007 than originally thought.
I agree in one regards.......I said take the shot at draft day and draft two explosive offensive weapons with the first two picks.
Lynch and the best WR after trading back into late round one.

The defense will be mediocre no matter what; maybe we can flat-out outscore teams, if nothing else take some pressure off our defense.

If we play a bunch of 14-10 games we'll be lucky to win 5-6 games this year.

[BAM]

God damn!

I didn't realize that.

Our defense only allowed 19.4 points per game.

That's really ****ing encouraging - I think it just made my day.

Looks like we have a "bend but don't break" type defense.

Must like the 1998 NY Jets, which was effective.

If JP Losman and the offense can get it together, maybe we're better off in 2007 than originally thought.

I've noticed that fact has been conveniently overlooked this whole offseason.

[patmoran2006]

I've noticed that fact has been conveniently overlooked this whole offseason.
as has the fact that 2 of our 7 wins last year were against teams with a winning record, only 1 vs a playoff team and 0 vs a divisional champ.

And have you seen this year's schedule minus the two Dolphin and and one Browns games?

[BAM]

Yah. Weren't we ranked amongst the hardest schedules in the league last year too? With a couple changed calls, we'd have been in the black side of a .500 winning percentage.

BTW, I do trust in the Marv but I didn't expect him to turn everything around in just his first season.

[patmoran2006]

This is his second...

9 teams in the past three seasons have went from a record worse than Buffalo's last year directly into the playoffs the next season; including New Orleans and the Jets just from last year alone.

Why not Buffalo? Even the most optimistic of Bills fans here can't realistically forecast more than 9 wins.. Why is that?

[justasportsfan]

Y
BTW, I do trust in the Marv but I didn't expect him to turn everything around in just his first season.


Homer. Rararah MArv !!!!!!!!!

[madness]

Yah. Weren't we ranked amongst the hardest schedules in the league last year too? With a couple changed calls, we'd have been in the black side of a .500 winning percentage.

BTW, I do trust in the Marv but I didn't expect him to turn everything around in just his first season.

http://www.downstate.edu/jaz/images/Wasting%20Time.jpg

[TacklingDummy]

I've noticed that fact has been conveniently overlooked this whole offseason.

And all during the year.

The reason the Bills lost last year was because of the JP led offense. The defense played well enough for 4 maybe 5 more wins.

[JoeMama]

I agree in one regards.......I said take the shot at draft day and draft two explosive offensive weapons with the first two picks.
Lynch and the best WR after trading back into late round one.

The defense will be mediocre no matter what; maybe we can flat-out outscore teams, if nothing else take some pressure off our defense.

If we play a bunch of 14-10 games we'll be lucky to win 5-6 games this year.

I have pretty much the same draft strategy in mind as you.

Go offensive.

Our defense is probably going to be about the same in terms of production.

So get some new weapons on offense - make the unit dynamic - and score more than 19.4 points per game.

[patmoran2006]

Homer. Rararah MArv !!!!!!!!!
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/ICL/ICL132/SCV_011C.jpg

[BAM]

Because even the most optimistic fans, myself being one, could even admit our team had been managed into a train wreck. I realize this is God's second season coming up and I have a feeling some of you will be surprised at the outcome of it. Bookmark this thread. If not I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.

[TacklingDummy]

as has the fact that 2 of our 7 wins last year were against teams with a winning record


1 win against teams with a winning record.

[patmoran2006]

Because even the most optimistic fans, myself being one, could even admit our team had been managed into a train wreck. I realize this is God's second season coming up and I have a feeling some of you will be surprised at the outcome of it. Bookmark this thread. If not I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.
It was managed into a trainwreck. Yet ALL of the stars of this team are left over from Donahoe.

Schobel, Crowell, Spikes, Evans, Losman, Jason Peters....

TD musta done something right.. Because not one SINGLE FA that marv signed last year was worth a damn.. and I didnt see any rookies winning accolades either.

I'm NOT bashing Marv, but its time for everyone to stop using the TD as an excuse time after time again..

Maybe if we pay Pickett the extra money instead of Tripplett our Front four wouldnt be such a joke..... maybe if we draft Mangold instead of McCargo we have a monster at center....... mabye if we dont blow $20 million on Reed and Price we have a legitimate #2 WR...... Maybe if we trade Nate last year KNOWING he was gone after the season we'd have an extra first day draft choice..

none of that has nothing to do with TD.. He wasnt the best GM, far from it.. but he also isnt the excuse machine you guys make him out to be; with Marv in charge for TWO offseasons now.

[BAM]

I think coaching had more of a part of it than the actual players.

1 1/2 offseasons BTW. Draft is April 28th.

[justasportsfan]

Some people whine about the last few years of mediocrity and then have the nerve to try and give props to Donahoe who was the one who in charge of that mediocrity in the first place.



Just like Ice, some people can't even agree with themselves.

[Meathead]

you know they could just be shopping spikes at his request. maybe tko thinks hes ready to rebound back to his former glory and the bills dont so they asked him to restructure a more team friendly contract. he refused and asked they try to trade him instead. so now they are going through that process to a) find out what they can get for him and b) to demonstrate to tko that nobody else wants him where he thinks he should be money wise

i wouldnt be surprised with anything that happens with spikes right now but one possibility is that after all is said and done the bills get him to restructure to the benefit of everybody. thats what im hoping for anyway

[patmoran2006]

Some people whine about the last few years of mediocrity and then have the nerve to try and give props to Donahoe who was the one who in charge of that mediocrity in the first place.



Just like Ice, some people can't even agree with themselves.
Do you have a secret man-crush on Ice that you reference him in at least 65% of your posts?

I dont give Props to Donahoe, he made some horrible decisions, especially with his selections of Head Coach. But I dont place the blame on him STILL for a fledging franchise. TD didnt sign Peerless Price, Josh Reed, Craig Nall, Robert Royal and Tutan Reyes last season.. TD didn't pass up on a run stuffer like Ngata or a stud center like Mangold last year.. TD got a first rounder after Franchising Peerless Price in '03.. Marv got **** for Nate Clements when he had value...

Under TD I dont remember many local blackouts.. 50% of Marv's reign as GM would be blacked out til this point; so the average local fan seen less than half their home games.

I didnt love TD as GM, and I dont hate marv as GM. Im just tired of hearing the same old TD excuses time after time.. As stated before, pretty much any player worth a damn on this team was left behind; because when it comes to getting impact players; so far Marv is 0-for-1

[justasportsfan]

Do you have a secret man-crush on Ice that you reference him in at least 65% of your posts?

I dont give Props to Donahoe, he made some horrible decisions, especially with his selections of Head Coach. But I dont place the blame on him STILL for a fledging franchise. TD didnt sign Peerless Price, Josh Reed, Craig Nall, Robert Royal and Tutan Reyes last season.. TD didn't pass up on a run stuffer like Ngata or a stud center like Mangold last year.. TD got a first rounder after Franchising Peerless Price in '03.. Marv got **** for Nate Clements when he had value...

Under TD I dont remember many local blackouts.. 50% of Marv's reign as GM would be blacked out til this point; so the average local fan seen less than half their home games.

I didnt love TD as GM, and I dont hate marv as GM. Im just tired of hearing the same old TD excuses time after time.. As stated before, pretty much any player worth a damn on this team was left behind; because when it comes to getting impact players; so far Marv is 0-for-1


I only mention ICE only when I reference you because you're just as arrogant as he is which is why you guys didn't get along :up: THe similarity is astounding.

you're blaming Marv for the blackouts because we ended having to REBUILD because of TD's failure in the first place?

You B1tch and whine about the mediocrity of the last 7 years where Marv has only had one year . A year that was better than any of TD's seasonsw regardless of who he brought in. DUH!!!!



Now I'm starting to miss skoobs, he makes more sense.

[patmoran2006]

Well. I do admit.

Skoob is a legend.

[patmoran2006]

I only mention ICE only when I reference you because you're just as arrogant as he is which is why you guys didn't get along :up: THe similarity is astounding.

you're blaming Marv for the blackouts because we ended having to REBUILD because of TD's failure in the first place?

You B1tch and whine about the mediocrity of the last 7 years where Marv has only had one year . A year that was better than any of TD's seasonsw regardless of who he brought in. DUH!!!!



Now I'm starting to miss skoobs, he makes more sense.
At least TD brought excitment to the fans.

His teams sucked.. but at least we sold out.
marv's first team.. also sucked.. and they didnt sell out. why is that?

[acehole]

That is cool. I repect your opinion. I think it is short sided to keep him. We are not contenders and he may win us maybe one more game if that. But then what? Is it worth his 4.5 mil or so? He walks in 2008 and we get?.....nothing? No IMHO. Would much rather see a young linbacking core (Draftees from this year) gell with a young secondary gell with a young DT stable. Make alot of racket in 2007 and dominate in 2008.....then keep this older injury risk of a player for nothing more then posterity.




Obviously, I disagree.

I think it's short-sighted to quit on Spikes at this point.

2007 will determine if he's done or not.

And since we're unlikely to find a better replacement immediately, I don't see a valid reason why we wouldn't give him one more year.

[patmoran2006]

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY id=collapseobj_usercp_reputation><TR><TD class=alt2>http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gif</TD><TD class=alt1Active id=p1900826 width="50%">Dont count on Spikes (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=1900826#post1900826)</TD><TD class=alt2 noWrap>03-22-2007 09:48 AM</TD><TD class=alt1 width="50%">Don't you ever tire of being a pompous dumbass?</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Im gonna go out on a limb and say that's from Hammer-tool.

[Tatonka]

succinctly
suc&#183;cinct / Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhk-singkt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. expressed in few words; concise; terse.
2. characterized by conciseness or verbal brevity.
3. compressed into a small area, scope, or compass.
4. Archaic. a. drawn up, as by a girdle.
b. close-fitting.
c. encircled, as by a girdle.


you need to be careful philagape. we are not dealing with scholars here, myself included.

[THATHURMANATOR]

At least TD brought excitment to the fans.

His teams sucked.. but at least we sold out.
marv's first team.. also sucked.. and they didnt sell out. why is that?
So do you want excitement but losing or do you want rebuilding the right way?

[patmoran2006]

So do you want excitement but losing or do you want rebuilding the right way?
When I see evidence of the right way, I will agree with you.

Thus far I've seen a wave of wasted FA signings from 2006. A decent draft with no stars but decent players..

A couple of ridiculous contracts (kelsay, walker) and Cash to Cap that prevents us from doing anything significantly more.

[justasportsfan]

Maybe if we pay Pickett the extra money instead of Tripplett our Front four wouldnt be such a joke..... .






Because not one SINGLE FA that marv signed last year was worth a damn.. and I didnt see any rookies winning accolades either.


1 year ago......

But I am actually very PRO- signing Andre Davis.. I think potentially he'd be a GREAT fit in Buffalo,.... I really do. I wouldnt be upset at all.

If we get Tripplet and Davis this weekend, I actually think its a decent start to FA..


How often do you freakin change your mind on the fly?

[justasportsfan]

At least TD brought excitment to the fans.

His teams sucked.. but at least we sold out.
marv's first team.. also sucked.. and they didnt sell out. why is that?
HAha!

NO!!!!! The bills didn't sell out because no one wanted to watch a rebuilding team .DUH!

[Philagape]

suc·cinct / Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhk-singkt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. expressed in few words; concise; terse.
2. characterized by conciseness or verbal brevity.
3. compressed into a small area, scope, or compass.
4. Archaic. a. drawn up, as by a girdle.
b. close-fitting.
c. encircled, as by a girdle.


you need to be careful philagape. we are not dealing with scholars here, myself included.

I meant the girdle part

[Tatonka]

i figured as much..

[Tatonka]

i figured as much..

[justasportsfan]

Thus far I've seen a wave of wasted FA signings from 2006. A decent draft with no stars but decent players..

.


here's more from a year ago.





Tutan Reyes signing was BIG for our OL, you'll have to see that for yourself I suppose.. But I can live with Gandy-Reyes-Fowler-Villarial-Peters for 2006 if it means improving our front four with two starting-quality rookies.

[SquishDaFish]

LMAO

[ShadowHawk7]

Can't wait to hear what Chris Berman and his taxi cab driver have to say about this.

[patmoran2006]

The cab driver is going to say there is a hell of a lot less traffic going up Abbott Road on Sunday than their used to be.