The writing is on the wall

[jpdex12]

For those of us that didn't really anticipate the departure of Spikes...he's not gone yet, but we will start the pre-season without him.

IMO, Spikes will get traded for a 4th or 5th rounder if we are lucky. Let's say realistically a 5th rounder. That will leave us with:
(1) 1st rounder
(1) 2nd rounder
(2) 3rd rounders
(1) 4th rounder
(1) 5th rounder
(1) 6th rounder
(2) 7th rounders

9 friggin picks! If you don't think that we are going to pair a few picks together and move up the draft board you are nuts!

With this many picks, plus an extra 3rd next year I am feeling a calmness that we will fill ALL of our needs in this year's draft.

We absolutely need to add another RB via FA so it isn't absolute that we must pick one of the 2 top RB's in the first round. Yes, CB has an injury history but we should sign him so we can pick another RB in the 2nd or third round. We are probably not going to find out next Thurman Thomas in this draft but we may find the next Kenneth Davis and we can succeed with A-Train, CB, Shaud Williams, Fred Jackson and an Antonio Pittman/Kenny Irons type RB for a rookie. Maybe next year we will be poised to take a RB in the 1st that will be our stud out of the gates.

There is no doubt in my mind that we will take Willis in the first and if we need to move up two picks to ensure this, we will have the ammunition to do it and also to move back into the late first round by trading up again. I think that if Buffalo gets Willis in the 1st OBD will be happy with that and stay put through at least the first three rounds. It should only cost our #92 pick to move up to 10th spot if Houston is willing according to the point chart. Either Miami at 9 (if Quinn is gone) or Houston at 10 (if Peterson is gone) could be patrners for trading down where they could still get Levi Brown and we would be ahead of SF who is the only team IMO that might be willing to take Willis. They need a WR bad though so I don't see it happening. We should get Willis and I wouldn't be suprised to see us grab two LBers early on day one.

[realdealryan]

You think we'll get a 5th for Spikes?

[X-Era]

For those of us that didn't really anticipate the departure of Spikes...he's not gone yet, but we will start the pre-season without him.

IMO, Spikes will get traded for a 4th or 5th rounder if we are lucky. Let's say realistically a 5th rounder. That will leave us with:
(1) 1st rounder
(1) 2nd rounder
(2) 3rd rounders
(1) 4th rounder
(1) 5th rounder
(1) 6th rounder
(2) 7th rounders

9 friggin picks! If you don't think that we are going to pair a few picks together and move up the draft board you are nuts!

With this many picks, plus an extra 3rd next year I am feeling a calmness that we will fill ALL of our needs in this year's draft.

We absolutely need to add another RB via FA so it isn't absolute that we must pick one of the 2 top RB's in the first round. Yes, CB has an injury history but we should sign him so we can pick another RB in the 2nd or third round. We are probably not going to find out next Thurman Thomas in this draft but we may find the next Kenneth Davis and we can succeed with A-Train, CB, Shaud Williams, Fred Jackson and an Antonio Pittman/Kenny Irons type RB for a rookie. Maybe next year we will be poised to take a RB in the 1st that will be our stud out of the gates.

There is no doubt in my mind that we will take Willis in the first and if we need to move up two picks to ensure this, we will have the ammunition to do it and also to move back into the late first round by trading up again. I think that if Buffalo gets Willis in the 1st OBD will be happy with that and stay put through at least the first three rounds. It should only cost our #92 pick to move up to 10th spot if Houston is willing according to the point chart. Either Miami at 9 (if Quinn is gone) or Houston at 10 (if Peterson is gone) could be patrners for trading down where they could still get Levi Brown and we would be ahead of SF who is the only team IMO that might be willing to take Willis. They need a WR bad though so I don't see it happening. We should get Willis and I wouldn't be suprised to see us grab two LBers early on day one.

We actually have 2 6th rounders (Willis trade)

[Jersey1031]

We actually have 2 6th rounders (Willis trade)


No, it was Baltimore's 3rd and 7th rounders of this year, and next year's 3rd.

[SquishDaFish]

No willis trade got us the 2nd 7th rnder

[X-Era]

No, it was Baltimore's 3rd and 7th rounders of this year, and next year's 3rd.

How did I screw that up? early mis-report?

[ShadowHawk7]

I wouldn't mind giving up our 4th and early 7th to move up two spots and guarentee getting Willis or Peterson.

[The Answer]

For those of us that didn't really anticipate the departure of Spikes...he's not gone yet, but we will start the pre-season without him.

IMO, Spikes will get traded for a 4th or 5th rounder if we are lucky. Let's say realistically a 5th rounder. That will leave us with:
(1) 1st rounder
(1) 2nd rounder
(2) 3rd rounders
(1) 4th rounder
(1) 5th rounder
(1) 6th rounder
(2) 7th rounders

9 friggin picks! If you don't think that we are going to pair a few picks together and move up the draft board you are nuts!

With this many picks, plus an extra 3rd next year I am feeling a calmness that we will fill ALL of our needs in this year's draft.

We absolutely need to add another RB via FA so it isn't absolute that we must pick one of the 2 top RB's in the first round. Yes, CB has an injury history but we should sign him so we can pick another RB in the 2nd or third round. We are probably not going to find out next Thurman Thomas in this draft but we may find the next Kenneth Davis and we can succeed with A-Train, CB, Shaud Williams, Fred Jackson and an Antonio Pittman/Kenny Irons type RB for a rookie. Maybe next year we will be poised to take a RB in the 1st that will be our stud out of the gates.

There is no doubt in my mind that we will take Willis in the first and if we need to move up two picks to ensure this, we will have the ammunition to do it and also to move back into the late first round by trading up again. I think that if Buffalo gets Willis in the 1st OBD will be happy with that and stay put through at least the first three rounds. It should only cost our #92 pick to move up to 10th spot if Houston is willing according to the point chart. Either Miami at 9 (if Quinn is gone) or Houston at 10 (if Peterson is gone) could be patrners for trading down where they could still get Levi Brown and we would be ahead of SF who is the only team IMO that might be willing to take Willis. They need a WR bad though so I don't see it happening. We should get Willis and I wouldn't be suprised to see us grab two LBers early on day one.

We'll be lucky to get a 6th rounder from him - realistically he's probably worth a 7th. Dude is finished.

~The Answer

[jpdex12]

You think we'll get a 5th for Spikes?

I am hoping! If he passes the physical and we get a few teams bidding over him, you know Buffalo wants to pedal him. I really can't see anything less than a 6th if he is healthy enough to pass a physical. A fifth may be the most we could get.

[BILLSROCK1212]

we could also possibly recieve a non-compensatory 7th round pick

[Talk0fNewYork]

Why would we take Willis when it's Crowell's natural position, I don't get this?

[Tatonka]

crowell clearly showed that he can play at a high level at WS LB... and willis stated clearly in his interview on sirius that he can play wslb in the cover 2 as well.

[Marvelous]

i would REALLY like to see our Billszone fanbase be a tad more realistic with trade compensation with Spikes & future dealings..Most of us are realistic but there's still a few who still view SPikes as the Prowbowl beast LB who was a household name etc...He's over 30, shows signs of being injury prone now(hamstring&achiles) plus he's unhappy..Sad,very sad that his achiles was so destroyed..But it is what it is & i agree with the thread starter that a 5th orunder is a blessing to Marv & us because of his current abilities & his salary...Shame too because there was a time we coulda gotten a 1st rounder for him...

-A great example of a player who would warrant a high draft pick like a 1st was Nate Clements but he's a jerk and needed a Marv promise to not be tagged....

-Hey a 5th rounder would rock! make up for the one we lost from Hardgrove...I'm excited about the draft :):):)
:dance:

[LifetimeBillsFan]

If, as was mentioned in another thread, the NY Giants are one of the teams interested in Spikes, you have to take into consideration that, while Giants' GM Reese was unwilling to trade a first day pick for a RB earlier this off-season, the Giants were willing to trade a package of picks for Ian Gold recently until Gold failed to pass their physical. Obviously, Gold was their first preference and Spikes wasn't--which would mitigate against the Bills being offered quite as good a deal as was offered to Denver for Gold. But, if Spikes can pass their physical, which Gold couldn't, it is possible that the Bills could end up getting some kind of package of picks from the Giants. What might also make it possible for the Bills to get more from the Giants than one might otherwise expect is not only the fact that the Giants are desperate for LBs, but, additionally, the news that there are multiple teams, including the Giants' hated rivals, the Eagles, interested in making a deal for Spikes.

There is also the report from the Cincinnatti Enquirer stating that the Bengals might be interested in dealing for Spikes if the price were low enough. To me, that would indicate that there is already a bottom to the market for Spikes: I have to believe that M.Lewis would be more than happy to get Spikes for a 6th--and perhaps even a 5th round pick. Meaning that, if the Giants and Eagles are serious about acquiring Spikes, they would have to offer the Bills more--which is to say, a better pick--than they could get from Cincy.

Now, I think that Spikes was a shadow of himself last season and that Ellison out-played him, so I am being realistic and not thinking that the Bills can get the kind of deal for him that they could have gotten a couple of years ago before he got hurt--in short, there is a ceiling in the market for Spikes. But, I also think that, realistically, there is also a floor in the market for Spikes below which the offers won't go as well. I don't think they will get a top pick, but I also don't think that they will get just a rock-bottom pick for him either (if they get one, it will be part of a package of picks).

In addition to the fact that Spikes has been critical of the turnover in the team's roster and questioned whether he wants to be a part of the rebuilding of this team, there are 4.6 million reasons this year and more than 6 million reasons next season why the Bills may want to move him in return for some draft picks while they can instead of cutting him or letting him go after this season without getting anything for him in return. I know all of the reasons for and against the Bills "cash to the cap" approach and understand how that is limiting their ability to acquire and keep established players in free agency. But, I am also aware that there have been reports that they are not the only team in the league that is taking this approach (to read some posts here, you'd think that the Bills are the only team using a "cash to the cap" financial policy when several legitimate sources have reported that there are other teams doing this as well). And, the reality is that, using this financial approach, the Bills can use the money that Spikes' contract calls for and the pick--or picks--that they may be able to acquire for him to add to the core of young defensive players that they are assembling and trying to shape in a particular mold that Spikes has made it clear that he does not want to fit into.

As for a possible replacement for Spikes: if the Bills could get a 4th round pick for him, there's a very good possibility that they could be able to get Rory Johnson with that pick. If you love Patrick Willis and think the Bills should take him at # 12, take a look at his teammate, OLB Johnson. While Johnson is raw and will need some seasoning, there are scouts who feel that Johnson is an even better athlete than Willis. There is also the MLB from Hampton (whose name escapes me at the moment) who was talked about a lot in a recent thread here on the BZ forum and may also be available early on Day Two of the draft.

Are these proven commodities? No. But, young players don't get to become proven commodities until they get a chance to play and prove themselves. And, there are and have been a lot of good and even great players who have not been well-known, who have been overlooked by draftniks because they didn't go to big schools or needed time to develop, etc. One thing that comes across loud and clear in Marv Levy's book and in the comments of Dick Jauron is that they both believe that coaches are first and foremost teachers who teach players that want to learn how to become better players. That means that they need and want to have players on their teams that are willing to learn what they are going to be teaching them and that are going to buy into their overall concepts. Established players with reputations and egos large enough to be considered stars oftentimes are not willing to do those things. While, on the other hand, they can draft younger players who are. Ultimately, however, those younger players need to get a chance to play and show whether they have learned the things that their coaches have been teaching them. And, sure, they are going to make mistakes at first and some of them aren't going to be able to get the job done--but, some of them will and some will even go on to become stars. But, the only way that is going to happen and you are going to see that is if they play.

Now, that's not going to make those who want to see an established player or star at every position very happy. But, whether some Bills fans are happy with that or not, that is not going to change what Levy and Jauron believe in or how they are going to go about rebuilding the Bills. They are shaping this team in the mold that they believe in and in a particular manner. Yes, winning matters to them, but in the short term not as much as shaping the team in the way that they want to mold it for the long term. They are building their team around a core of young players that they are assembling, not older stars, because they expect those young players to develop, get better and step up--and in some cases become stars themselves. Now, as a Bills fan, you do not have to like what they are doing or agree with how they are going about it, but that is what they are doing and they obviously have the support of the team's owner in taking this approach. And, given the economic limitations that the team has to deal with--operating in a small market with a depressed economy and having an owner who is elderly and not nearly as wealthy (or does not have the same kind of outside income) as probably most of the other owners in the league--this approach may actually give the team its best chance to be competitive and seriously contend for a title periodically. But, for this approach to work, sometimes it means cutting ties with older, established players, even stars like Spikes has been, who may be passing their prime or questionable due to injuries and command large salaries. Parting company with such players will never be easy for the fans of the team, but doing so may be essential to the team's chances of having success down the line, if not in the coming season.

[jamze132]

I think we can get at most a 4th for him. I would take that.

[jpdex12]

If, as was mentioned in another thread, the NY Giants are one of the teams interested in Spikes, you have to take into consideration that, while Giants' GM Reese was unwilling to trade a first day pick for a RB earlier this off-season, the Giants were willing to trade a package of picks for Ian Gold recently until Gold failed to pass their physical. Obviously, Gold was their first preference and Spikes wasn't--which would mitigate against the Bills being offered quite as good a deal as was offered to Denver for Gold. But, if Spikes can pass their physical, which Gold couldn't, it is possible that the Bills could end up getting some kind of package of picks from the Giants. What might also make it possible for the Bills to get more from the Giants than one might otherwise expect is not only the fact that the Giants are desperate for LBs, but, additionally, the news that there are multiple teams, including the Giants' hated rivals, the Eagles, interested in making a deal for Spikes.

There is also the report from the Cincinnatti Enquirer stating that the Bengals might be interested in dealing for Spikes if the price were low enough. To me, that would indicate that there is already a bottom to the market for Spikes: I have to believe that M.Lewis would be more than happy to get Spikes for a 6th--and perhaps even a 5th round pick. Meaning that, if the Giants and Eagles are serious about acquiring Spikes, they would have to offer the Bills more--which is to say, a better pick--than they could get from Cincy.

Now, I think that Spikes was a shadow of himself last season and that Ellison out-played him, so I am being realistic and not thinking that the Bills can get the kind of deal for him that they could have gotten a couple of years ago before he got hurt--in short, there is a ceiling in the market for Spikes. But, I also think that, realistically, there is also a floor in the market for Spikes below which the offers won't go as well. I don't think they will get a top pick, but I also don't think that they will get just a rock-bottom pick for him either (if they get one, it will be part of a package of picks).

In addition to the fact that Spikes has been critical of the turnover in the team's roster and questioned whether he wants to be a part of the rebuilding of this team, there are 4.6 million reasons this year and more than 6 million reasons next season why the Bills may want to move him in return for some draft picks while they can instead of cutting him or letting him go after this season without getting anything for him in return. I know all of the reasons for and against the Bills "cash to the cap" approach and understand how that is limiting their ability to acquire and keep established players in free agency. But, I am also aware that there have been reports that they are not the only team in the league that is taking this approach (to read some posts here, you'd think that the Bills are the only team using a "cash to the cap" financial policy when several legitimate sources have reported that there are other teams doing this as well). And, the reality is that, using this financial approach, the Bills can use the money that Spikes' contract calls for and the pick--or picks--that they may be able to acquire for him to add to the core of young defensive players that they are assembling and trying to shape in a particular mold that Spikes has made it clear that he does not want to fit into.

As for a possible replacement for Spikes: if the Bills could get a 4th round pick for him, there's a very good possibility that they could be able to get Rory Johnson with that pick. If you love Patrick Willis and think the Bills should take him at # 12, take a look at his teammate, OLB Johnson. While Johnson is raw and will need some seasoning, there are scouts who feel that Johnson is an even better athlete than Willis. There is also the MLB from Hampton (whose name escapes me at the moment) who was talked about a lot in a recent thread here on the BZ forum and may also be available early on Day Two of the draft.

Are these proven commodities? No. But, young players don't get to become proven commodities until they get a chance to play and prove themselves. And, there are and have been a lot of good and even great players who have not been well-known, who have been overlooked by draftniks because they didn't go to big schools or needed time to develop, etc. One thing that comes across loud and clear in Marv Levy's book and in the comments of Dick Jauron is that they both believe that coaches are first and foremost teachers who teach players that want to learn how to become better players. That means that they need and want to have players on their teams that are willing to learn what they are going to be teaching them and that are going to buy into their overall concepts. Established players with reputations and egos large enough to be considered stars oftentimes are not willing to do those things. While, on the other hand, they can draft younger players who are. Ultimately, however, those younger players need to get a chance to play and show whether they have learned the things that their coaches have been teaching them. And, sure, they are going to make mistakes at first and some of them aren't going to be able to get the job done--but, some of them will and some will even go on to become stars. But, the only way that is going to happen and you are going to see that is if they play.

Now, that's not going to make those who want to see an established player or star at every position very happy. But, whether some Bills fans are happy with that or not, that is not going to change what Levy and Jauron believe in or how they are going to go about rebuilding the Bills. They are shaping this team in the mold that they believe in and in a particular manner. Yes, winning matters to them, but in the short term not as much as shaping the team in the way that they want to mold it for the long term. They are building their team around a core of young players that they are assembling, not older stars, because they expect those young players to develop, get better and step up--and in some cases become stars themselves. Now, as a Bills fan, you do not have to like what they are doing or agree with how they are going about it, but that is what they are doing and they obviously have the support of the team's owner in taking this approach. And, given the economic limitations that the team has to deal with--operating in a small market with a depressed economy and having an owner who is elderly and not nearly as wealthy (or does not have the same kind of outside income) as probably most of the other owners in the league--this approach may actually give the team its best chance to be competitive and seriously contend for a title periodically. But, for this approach to work, sometimes it means cutting ties with older, established players, even stars like Spikes has been, who may be passing their prime or questionable due to injuries and command large salaries. Parting company with such players will never be easy for the fans of the team, but doing so may be essential to the team's chances of having success down the line, if not in the coming season.

Holy ****! This much typing would give someone carpal tunnel (sp)?