When is this team going to STOP rebuilding and START winning?

[OpIv37]

I've been trying to deny it all off-season, but the Spikes trade was the last straw. Spikes, Fletcher, Clements, McGahee and going back to last year Posey, Milloy, Vincent, Adams... all gone and mostly replaced by young guys with little to no experience, which is a huge gamble.

I have no problem with getting rid of aging or under-performing players. I do have a problem with not replacing them or trying to replace them with unproven draft picks or benchwarmers. It worked out with our safeties from last year, but can we really count on that type of immediate quality from draft picks for last year? Plus, we need to analyze this realistically- we had a bunch of draft picks play well on D last year and it got us 7-9 and ranked 27th against the run. This year, well, we need another cadre of draft picks to come in and play well if we're going to do anything on D. Read back two sentences in case you forgot what happened the last time we did that. And that's assuming this year's draft is as good as the last.

It seems as though Marv has chosen to build almost exclusively through the draft. Two problems with that: First, our only big FA move last year and two of our draft picks went to the DL, but the DL STILL SUCKS. Second, guys like Losman, Evans, Peters, Schobel, even Whitner and Simpson do NOT have lifetime contracts with the Bills. Eventually they will either a) require big money to keep, b) leave via FA or c) retire. We will NEVER get ahead if we need to keep fixing the same positions or if new holes are constantly created because of self-imposed cap hell from this "cash to cap" BS.

We drop Spikes for draft picks, but we pay $5 million a season combined for Peerless Price and Josh Reed. We bring in second-tier FA's like Robert Royal, Price, Fowler, Tutan Reyes, Larry Tripplett, etc then wonder why we can't win.

We finished the season at 7-9, and an entire FA period plus two trades later, our offense is moderately better and our defense is significantly WORSE. And I know , "but we still have the draft!" Well guess what? So do 31 other ****ing NFL teams.

I'm really ****ing sick of this team treading water. I want to WIN and at this pace we will never do that. Every time we fill one hole, we create two more.

[camelcowboy]

Spikes is still on the team as off now. Alot of offseason left op, relax.

[Nighthawk]

Rebuilding is all we ever do, but some people are content with it, so why should they change?

[camelcowboy]

Rebuilding is all we ever do, but some people are content with it, so why should they change?

Guess what guys Tom Donablow rebuilt this team and ****ed it up with crappy coaching. The window is now closed as of two years ago. Time to start again.

[patmoran2006]

I' m not content with it.

To answer your question, that answer will come when there is a new owner of the Buffalo Bills; who's first act as owner is to go out and hire a proven GM in this league with experience in building a winner from the ground up.

I love Marv to death, but he's a football coach not a GM.. His curious FA signings, resignings and a couple of draft moves have already cemented that in little more than a year.

[OpIv37]

Spikes is still on the team as off now. Alot of offseason left op, relax.

there was a thread a few minutes ago that reported he had already been traded.

[OpIv37]

Guess what guys Tom Donablow rebuilt this team and ****ed it up with crappy coaching. The window is now closed as of two years ago. Time to start again.

from a fan standpoint, what does that matter? 7 years of losing and another one staring us in the face.

[Nighthawk]

Guess what guys Tom Donablow rebuilt this team and ****ed it up with crappy coaching. The window is now closed as of two years ago. Time to start again.

YOu build a winner by combining parts...some veterans, some rookies...not by filling your roster with 75% rookie or 1st year players. Also, their drafting has left something to be desired. Building a winner takes a keen eye for talent and not just filling holes because that is what we need.

[Ickybaluky]

I'm guessing you needed to vent...

[SquishDaFish]

Wahhhh! WAHHHH! Wahhh! Some people need their pacifiers. Or go be a fan of another team

[camelcowboy]

I' m not content with it.

To answer your question, that answer will come when there is a new owner of the Buffalo Bills; who's first act as owner is to go out and hire a proven GM in this league with experience in building a winner from the ground up.

I love Marv to death, but he's a football coach not a GM.. His curious FA signings, resignings and a couple of draft moves have already cemented that in little more than a year.

Now your just being stupid. He's had one season, a hell of a draft and Marv can't be a good GM? Your more intelligent then that. News flash pat, Wilson goes then the bills go from Buffalo.

[Nighthawk]

Wahhhh! WAHHHH! Wahhh! Some people need their pacifiers.

You are a prime example of why this team never feels a need to build a winner...you are satisfied with mediocrity.

[The King]

Consistancy Op. Thats the key everytime we abandon a coach a QB a GM we start at square one. Everyone has their own ideas and agendas. We need to be consistant in philosophy and personell. Character players however are key, these are the guys who have the team attitude and will perform regardless of who is at the helm.

[OpIv37]

Wahhhh! WAHHHH! Wahhh! Some people need their pacifiers.

and some people need to take off their homer glasses. We're looking at losing 3 defensive starters from a D that sucked as it is. Without Spikes, we have Crowell, Ellison (who's questionable as it is) and.... no one but a bunch of no names and LB/S tweeners. Our starting CBs will be McGee (who struggled last year) and either Kiwaukee Thomas (0 career INT's) or Ashton Youboty (0 career starts). We've re-signed (or at least tendered) all of last year's crap-tacular DL.

This is a 7-9 team that has improved at exactly ONE position this whole off-season, plus gotten worse in at least 2 positions, arguably 4. And you're not at all concerned about that? Take your head out of the sand.

[Earthquake Enyart]

2009

[Nighthawk]

Now your just being stupid. He's had one season, a hell of a draft and Marv can't be a good GM? Your more intelligent then that. News flash pat, Wilson goes then the bills go from Buffalo.

I have to intervene...let's get this straight...Marv is just a face to make fans feel a connection to the team, he is not a GM. He knows nothing about the cap, who we are going after or anything else that a normal GM would know. My take is that Modrak is truly the GM, but he isn't the face of the position. I think some people get attached to a sports figure and can't truly see what is happening in front of them and I believe that is happening with a lot of Bills fans. Listen to Marv talk and you can tell he is not connected with the day-to-day dealings and it comes out loud & clear in his press conferences.

[OpIv37]

. Character players however are key, these are the guys who have the team attitude and will perform regardless of who is at the helm.

that's fine if they FIND THEM AND GET THEM ON THE TEAM. So far, too many flaws in ths team have been ignored and there aren't a whole lot of options left. -

[Nighthawk]

that's fine if they FIND THEM AND GET THEM ON THE TEAM. So far, too many flaws in ths team have been ignored and there aren't a whole lot of options left. -

Excellent point...

[The King]

that's fine if they FIND THEM AND GET THEM ON THE TEAM. So far, too many flaws in ths team have been ignored and there aren't a whole lot of options left. -

So far so good under Levy you gotta start fresh. There's nothing else that can be said.

[The Answer]

I've been trying to deny it all off-season, but the Spikes trade was the last straw. Spikes, Fletcher, Clements, McGahee and going back to last year Posey, Milloy, Vincent, Adams... all gone and mostly replaced by young guys with little to no experience, which is a huge gamble.

I have no problem with getting rid of aging or under-performing players. I do have a problem with not replacing them or trying to replace them with unproven draft picks or benchwarmers. It worked out with our safeties from last year, but can we really count on that type of immediate quality from draft picks for last year? Plus, we need to analyze this realistically- we had a bunch of draft picks play well on D last year and it got us 7-9 and ranked 27th against the run. This year, well, we need another cadre of draft picks to come in and play well if we're going to do anything on D. Read back two sentences in case you forgot what happened the last time we did that. And that's assuming this year's draft is as good as the last.

It seems as though Marv has chosen to build almost exclusively through the draft. Two problems with that: First, our only big FA move last year and two of our draft picks went to the DL, but the DL STILL SUCKS. Second, guys like Losman, Evans, Peters, Schobel, even Whitner and Simpson do NOT have lifetime contracts with the Bills. Eventually they will either a) require big money to keep, b) leave via FA or c) retire. We will NEVER get ahead if we need to keep fixing the same positions or if new holes are constantly created because of self-imposed cap hell from this "cash to cap" BS.

We drop Spikes for draft picks, but we pay $5 million a season combined for Peerless Price and Josh Reed. We bring in second-tier FA's like Robert Royal, Price, Fowler, Tutan Reyes, Larry Tripplett, etc then wonder why we can't win.

We finished the season at 7-9, and an entire FA period plus two trades later, our offense is moderately better and our defense is significantly WORSE. And I know , "but we still have the draft!" Well guess what? So do 31 other ****ing NFL teams.

I'm really ****ing sick of this team treading water. I want to WIN and at this pace we will never do that. Every time we fill one hole, we create two more.

The Answer shares your anger and frustration - But until this team makes the playoffs/wins a division title they will continue to be entrenched in rebuilding mode.

The Answer honestly can't see us being a legit contender until the team is sold and new ownership is in place. Ralph Wilson just don't 'get it' - he was a great owner 20 years ago, but the landscape of the NFL has changed significantly and his whining about small markets is futile and does nothing but illustrate his cheapskate mentality.

~The Answer

[Nighthawk]

So far so good under Levy you gotta start fresh. There's nothing else that can be said.

Read my post above...I highly doubt Marv is the man who should be getting the credit.

[camelcowboy]

You are a prime example of why this team never feels a need to build a winner...you are satisfied with mediocrity.


there was a thread a few minutes ago that reported he had already been traded.
Spam


from a fan standpoint, what does that matter? 7 years of losing and another one staring us in the face.
New direction means more time,


YOu build a winner by combining parts...some veterans, some rookies...not by filling your roster with 75% rookie or 1st year players. Also, their drafting has left something to be desired. Building a winner takes a keen eye for talent and not just filling holes because that is what we need.

Guess what. Milloy,Clements, Fletcher, Posey, Bledsoe, Mike Williams, Pat Williams, Sam Adams, McGahee, Spikes, Levy is cleaning house. Even with all these players the bills sucked. Greg Williams, Mike Mularkey were bad moves. We are moving on, its going to take some time. You guys can ***** all you want we are rebuilding. And we won't stop rebuilding until the right decisions are made.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I've been trying to deny it all off-season, but the Spikes trade was the last straw.
Last straw? For what?

Last straw for your unconditional support of the team?
Last straw for your positive attitude?
Last straw before you starting complaining?

OMG say it ain't so! :jawdrop:

[OpIv37]

So far so good under Levy you gotta start fresh. There's nothing else that can be said.

I don't know if I'd say so far, so good.... last year's draft was good. Last year's FA class was a joke- Reyes, Price, Royal, Fowler, Tripplett- none of these guys were better than mediocre. This year, the moves Marv made look good but I can't help but worry about the moves he DIDN'T make...

[OpIv37]

Last straw? For what?

Last straw for your unconditional support of the team?
Last straw for your positive attitude?
Last straw before you starting complaining?

OMG say it ain't so! :jawdrop:

last straw in being able to deny the rebuilding. If you're gonna quote, quote the whole thing.

Supporting the team doesn't mean going "Great Move, Marv!" every time he does something. Try thinking for yourself every once in a while.

[OpIv37]

New direction means more time,


and more time means MORE LOSING. I'm ****ing sick of losing.

[The King]

I don't know if I'd say so far, so good.... last year's draft was good. Last year's FA class was a joke- Reyes, Price, Royal, Fowler, Tripplett- none of these guys were better than mediocre. This year, the moves Marv made look good but I can't help but worry about the moves he DIDN'T make...

I dont think you're unique in your frustration, we all want to see this team win. Having to reset every 3 years horrid and the only thing I say be greatful for is we only had to sit through 2 years of Mularkey.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Supporting the team doesn't mean going "Great Move, Marv!" every time he does something. Try thinking for yourself every once in a while.
Uh, that's the very definition of being supportive, is not to be negative but to support whatever decision is made. Your never-ending *****ing is the absolute opposite of being supportive.

[patmoran2006]

Now your just being stupid. He's had one season, a hell of a draft and Marv can't be a good GM? Your more intelligent then that. News flash pat, Wilson goes then the bills go from Buffalo.
If he wasnt 81 years old.. Then maybe.

How long do you think PHYSICALLY he will be able to be an effective GM? WIthout intentionally being cynical, in all likely-hood it will take him 3-4 years at least to build a team that even resembles a legitimate contender. And he'll be 85 years OLD by that time. god willing (and saying God willing when someone is in their 80's is no stretch) he's still alive in four years. The probability that he'll still be the GM of the Buffalo Bills in five years is very unlikely; and what do you do from there? Start over AGAIN?

I love Marv to death and I could tell many great Marv stories; I have more reason to have respect for him than almost anyone on this board. But a GM who was much younger and much more experienced at rebuilding should've been brought in as GM.

As for marv's first draft; Naturally only time will tell and I was one of the FEW SUPPORTERS of his draft from the day it happened. But I would absolutely NOT call it one hell of a draft just yet.
Whitner: Had a decent rookie season. WHen you're the 8th pick overall in the draft and taken at what the consensus was a reach spot, you need to be more than decent. You need to be a game changer. We'll see if that happens this year.

McCargo: Too early to tell, but I hated this pick from the moment it happened. He's the same kind of DT as Tripplett, we gave up a day one pick to get him and what disgusted me the most that moment and still does to this is we left nick mangold on the board.

Youboty: A total waste as a rookie, did absolutely nothing (could become a very good player, but until you see that he wasnt "one hell of a draft pick" was he?)

Simpson: Steal

K. Williams: Steal for where he was taken, but the fact he's already our starting NT is symbolic of how bad this team is.

Ellison: Steal

Pennington: Would call him a steal; however the FO thought that lowly of him that they just gave a flat blob from the Raiders $25 MILLION to take his spot.

So at least after Year one of the 2006 draft: We have OVER-ACHIEVING second day steals and UNDER ACHIEVING day one picks. If I'm wrong, then you tell me what the day one picks (Whitner, McCargo and Youboty) did to help the Bills in 2006?
=====================================================
As far as FA went last year, dont even get me started. It was a total TRAINWRECK.. WE signed 13 guys and one of them.. ONE (Fowler) worked out to be a plus this team.

Our big signing was Tripplett... $18 million for 2.5 sacks?

Robert Royal, Peerless Price and Josh Reed? You call those good weapons for Losman? Please. Andre Davis, who I actually liked and backed at the time, was never utilized. Craig Nall? hahah. Matt Bowens and Tutan Reyes were 100% waste of roster spaces.

That right there is the difference between good decisions and stupid decisions. Dont compare Marv as GM to me. Compare him to his 31 other peers.
======================================================
Cant judge this year's crop until they actually play.. But I sure as hell hope they are better than last year's recycling bin garbage.

[Nighthawk]

Spam


New direction means more time,



Guess what. Milloy,Clements, Fletcher, Posey, Bledsoe, Mike Williams, Pat Williams, Sam Adams, McGahee, Spikes, Levy is cleaning house. Even with all these players the bills sucked. Greg Williams, Mike Mularkey were bad moves. We are moving on, its going to take some time. You guys can ***** all you want we are rebuilding. And we won't stop rebuilding until the right decisions are made.

Listen, I don't think that you're any less a fan or more a fan as I am. However, I personally get sick of the excuse that we need to rebuild. It's about time Ralphy decided to bring a winner to this town and not complain about how he isn't making enough money. My backing of this team does not stop because I don't agree with how they do things and I don't have to like what they do. I try to think for myself and not just spit out whatever One Bills Drive tells us...you will never find me doing that. Following sports is about having knowledge, an interest and an opinion of what your team should do. Once you stop having those elements, what's the point?

[patmoran2006]

Uh, that's the very definition of being supportive, is not to be negative but to support whatever decision is made. Your never-ending *****ing is the absolute opposite of being supportive.
Buying Tickets.. Buying Jerseys.. Buying Merchandise.

That's being supportive of your team.

*****ing, moaning or whatever out of frustration because year after year after YEAR we're "rebuilding" or whatever term anyone wants to label the Bills as......... Is a right

[Nighthawk]

Uh, that's the very definition of being supportive, is not to be negative but to support whatever decision is made. Your never-ending *****ing is the absolute opposite of being supportive.

You are flat out wrong. I support the team, but I don't have to agree with what they do. Your argument is very poor.

[OpIv37]

Uh, that's the very definition of being supportive, is not to be negative but to support whatever decision is made. Your never-ending *****ing is the absolute opposite of being supportive.

but here's the thing- the team isn't WINNING. So, you're being supportive of moves that don't help the team win.

Supporting the team means watching the team and hoping they win. It does NOT mean never criticizing the team. In fact, supporting the team is the reason I'm so critical- if I didn't support the team I wouldn't care what moves they made.

Tell me one thing that has been done to make our horrid D better this off-season. Anyone who cares about this team winning has a perfectly legitimate reason to ***** about that.

[The Answer]

Wahhhh! WAHHHH! Wahhh! Some people need their pacifiers. Or go be a fan of another team

So you are content with mediocrity and falling short year after year? Watching rival teams make the playoffs year after year? Other teams drafting great players that we passed on? Waiting all offseason for the season to kick off in september, only to be out of playoff contention by mid october?

This team hasn't made the playoffs since 99' and that was when The Answer was still in college, The Answer is now almost 30 years old and all he sees is a 2nd rate/crap team being fielded year after year.

Sorry but it's not acceptable - maybe because The Answer was spoiled with superbowl trips when he was in high school, or maybe The Answer feels we should at least had ONE division title this decade.

Bottom line is that at some point even the most devout homers have to be fed up and vent their anger instead of defending the front office and this team to the bitter death.

~The Answer

[patmoran2006]

I'll pose one question.. In fact its worth its own thread.. and anybody is welcome to answer it.

"Rebuilding".

Why are the Bills always rebuilding, while teams like the Jets and the Saints, both of whom (4-12) had worse records than us the year before and drafted higher; are making the PLAYOFFS in ONE season.. Why arent those teams rebuilding?

Or the 7 other teams in the two seasons prior went from losing records to the playoffs.. Why didnt they have "rebuild"?

Anyone have an answer, besides the typical BillsIns05 "groan", or the other "In Marv we trust" speeches.

Can anyone actually give an ANSWER for the specific question posed?

[Mr. Miyagi]

Listen, I don't think that you're any less a fan or more a fan as I am. However, I personally get sick of the excuse that we need to rebuild. It's about time Ralphy decided to bring a winner to this town and not complain about how he isn't making enough money. My backing of this team does not stop because I don't agree with how they do things and I don't have to like what they do. I try to think for myself and not just spit out whatever One Bills Drive tells us...you will never find me doing that. Following sports is about having knowledge, an interest and an opinion of what your team should do. Once you stop having those elements, what's the point?
Following the team means watching and following what they do. You have the rights to critique it as every fan does, but if you expect your opinion to mean anything to the team and frustrated to the point of madness (see OpIv) because the team isn't doing what you want, then you should follow politics where you can actually participate and vote, because NFL teams certainly don't take fan votes into consideration.

You can just be a fan and follow along and support, or you can have a heart attack every other move they make. It's your choice.

[OpIv37]

Following the team means watching and following what they do. You have the rights to critique it as every fan does, but if you expect your opinion to mean anything to the team and frustrated to the point of madness (see OpIv) because the team isn't doing what you want, then you should follow politics where you can actually participate and vote, because NFL teams certainly don't take fan votes into consideration.

You can just be a fan and follow along and support, or you can have a heart attack every other move they make. It's your choice.

It's not every other move- it took 7 years of sub-par performance to get to this point.

[The King]

Venting is fine. Just remember this is a message board made up of people who are fans of the same team you're venting about.

[Nighthawk]

I'll pose one question.. In fact its worth its own thread.. and anybody is welcome to answer it.

"Rebuilding".

Why are the Bills always rebuilding, while teams like the Jets and the Saints, both of whom (4-12) had worse records than us the year before and drafted higher; are making the PLAYOFFS in ONE season.. Why arent those teams rebuilding?

Or the 7 other teams in the two seasons prior went from losing records to the playoffs.. Why didnt they have "rebuild"?

Anyone have an answer, besides the typical BillsIns05 "groan", or JustaSportsFan "In Marv we trust" speeches.

Can anyone actually give an ANSWER for the specific question posed?

Yes, because we are all so scared to lose this franchise that we put up with the crap from One Bills Drive. We are so used to having Ralphy hold a gun to our head that some of us feel the need to back every move he makes, even if it isn't going to mean that we get better on the field. That is why.

[patmoran2006]

Following the team means watching and following what they do. You have the rights to critique it as every fan does, but if you expect your opinion to mean anything to the team and frustrated to the point of madness (see OpIv) because the team isn't doing what you want, then you should follow politics where you can actually participate and vote, because NFL teams certainly don't take fan votes into consideration.

You're right.. They dont.. Especially in Buffalo they don't.

And at some point, fans get fed up with the ****. That's why the majority of people who like the Bills didnt get to watch them on TV for FOUR straight home games last year.

Thats why Buffalo went from 9th in average attendance in 2005 to 19th last season.

You want some research in regards to where the Bills are at in Season Tickets sales this year in comparison to the past 10 years?

SO fans dont have any right to vote... But they have a right to get fed up with ****ty year after ****ty year.

[Nighthawk]

Following the team means watching and following what they do. You have the rights to critique it as every fan does, but if you expect your opinion to mean anything to the team and frustrated to the point of madness (see OpIv) because the team isn't doing what you want, then you should follow politics where you can actually participate and vote, because NFL teams certainly don't take fan votes into consideration.

You can just be a fan and follow along and support, or you can have a heart attack every other move they make. It's your choice.

True enough, but I'm not having a heart attack every move they make, but I still don't like what I'm seeing from this team. That doesn't mean that I'm less of a fan, it just means that I disagree with what they are doing. Nothing more, nothing less.

[The Answer]

Venting is fine. Just remember this is a message board made up of people who are fans of the same team you're venting about.

And it's very disturbing that so many of them have the 'mindset of mediocrity' and 'there's always next year' attitude.

But keep spending your hard earned money on overpriced tickets and merchandise though if it makes you happy.

~The Answer

[madness]

Nice, all the doom and gloom psychics are in one thread. Thank you for informing me of the losing season ahead. I will save myself by not watching any games this upcoming season. :rolleyes:

[ddaryl]

I've been trying to deny it all off-season, but the Spikes trade was the last straw. Spikes, Fletcher, Clements, McGahee and going back to last year Posey, Milloy, Vincent, Adams... all gone and mostly replaced by young guys with little to no experience, which is a huge gamble.

I have no problem with getting rid of aging or under-performing players. I do have a problem with not replacing them or trying to replace them with unproven draft picks or benchwarmers. It worked out with our safeties from last year, but can we really count on that type of immediate quality from draft picks for last year? Plus, we need to analyze this realistically- we had a bunch of draft picks play well on D last year and it got us 7-9 and ranked 27th against the run. This year, well, we need another cadre of draft picks to come in and play well if we're going to do anything on D. Read back two sentences in case you forgot what happened the last time we did that. And that's assuming this year's draft is as good as the last.

It seems as though Marv has chosen to build almost exclusively through the draft. Two problems with that: First, our only big FA move last year and two of our draft picks went to the DL, but the DL STILL SUCKS. Second, guys like Losman, Evans, Peters, Schobel, even Whitner and Simpson do NOT have lifetime contracts with the Bills. Eventually they will either a) require big money to keep, b) leave via FA or c) retire. We will NEVER get ahead if we need to keep fixing the same positions or if new holes are constantly created because of self-imposed cap hell from this "cash to cap" BS.

We drop Spikes for draft picks, but we pay $5 million a season combined for Peerless Price and Josh Reed. We bring in second-tier FA's like Robert Royal, Price, Fowler, Tutan Reyes, Larry Tripplett, etc then wonder why we can't win.

We finished the season at 7-9, and an entire FA period plus two trades later, our offense is moderately better and our defense is significantly WORSE. And I know , "but we still have the draft!" Well guess what? So do 31 other ****ing NFL teams.

I'm really ****ing sick of this team treading water. I want to WIN and at this pace we will never do that. Every time we fill one hole, we create two more.


This team will stop rebuilding once it settles on a long term GM and coach. As soon as you fire a GM you're going to almost guarentee a rebuild project.

If Marv gets more then 5 years then we might actually fore go a couple of rebuild cycles. if fans start calling for Marv's head expect more rebuilding.

[Mr. Miyagi]

True enough, but I'm not having a heart attack every move they make, but I still don't like what I'm seeing from this team. That doesn't mean that I'm less of a fan, it just means that I disagree with what they are doing. Nothing more, nothing less.
No one said you are any less of a fan. Some of us are just very tired of the never ending *****ing every move the team makes. It's negative, negative, negative. Never a "oh now that's a good move". It's always "THIS SUCKS!" and "WHAT ARE THEY DOING??!!". The chit gets old. :mad:

In real life do you enjoy talking to people who are always complaining about something? Most people start to distant themselves from those people after a while. Do you really want to be that guy?

[TedMock]

Thank you! This is where the circle must end. Yes, some folks blindly support the team without thinking for themselves and this is wrong. However, we have a handful of grown men on this board who miraculously menstrate like the women they should've been and complain to no end.

Yes, losing sucks. Yes, I'm sick of losing. Yes, I'm sick of being the lauging stock of the league. Yes, I wish we would have made more moves in free agency to this point. Yes, I will be disappointed if Spikes is traded.

Now that we all agree on a few things - let's look at this realistically. We could run the team just like the Redskins had done over several years and then we'd be - oh, nevermind. They were no better than us. Worse in many cases. But, boy what a splash they made. I mean who wins more in March than Washington? I'm soooo jealous.

On the other hand we could go the Bills route over the last several years and flip coaches, GM's, players, etc. everytime something goes wrong. That (which is what people are STILL SUGGESTING AFTER ONE SEASON WITH THE CURRENT REGIME!!!) obviously didn't work out so well for us.

How about this - let's see if old Marv and the boys indeed know what they're doing. Don't start telling me that it's obvious that they don't. No it's not. Don't be ridiculous. They had a pretty good draft last season and a not-so-good free agency. Fowler was solid. Tripplett didn't live up to expectations, but if you understand the defense they run you also understand that you can't really put a lot of the blame on him.

As for Spikes - The team is not running him out of town. All recent reports are showing that not only is he asking for a trade, but he and his agent are actively looking for takers. I don't blame him or the team. He's been through he** and back with us and just needs a change of scenery. The Bills, at this point and with this type of youth, have no incentive to bring back a disgruntled veteran. The team worked hard on builiding a supportive locker room. Let's at the very least keep that trend going. I'm not saying Spikes is a cancer (he's not, he's a great presence), but it's natural to act and perform differently when you're unhappy.

Here's to a successful draft and a couple more free agent signings. Go Bills.

[SquishDaFish]

Wilsons 1 mistake which I would blame him for is hiring IDIOTS who do not concentrate on the LINES 1st! Donadick screwed us fans all over. Yes he brought some good big name players in and drafted decent but you CANNOT win in the NFL with CRAP for Lines PERIOD!

None of what we did in the past few years is Marvs fault. His age doesnt matter so stop bringing that up. Marv is doing a damn good job. Yes it would be nice to go out and sign every big name. Who wouldnt love that.

We have to rebuild like we are a new team thanx for the lack of attention on the MAIN area that needed the most attention. How could anyone blame marv for wanting to build this team right. We are not going to win the Superbowl this year so why not get what you can for the cancers off the team.

I dont care if Marv had experience as a GM before. I care what hes doing now and hes doing exactly what I wish someone would of done a long time ago.
Seriously think of MArvs teams that Polian put on the field for him. Good lines!

I dont mind people being unhappy with not winning because I am one of them also. But as long as I see progress im not going to cry a river. We are now seeing progress finally. Shouldnt that make you happy?

Im sick of seeing losing teams also but lets give marv some time to get this mess fixed. I see the progress alt of people do. Its the impatient ones who dont see it.

[acehole]

We are year 2 of a 3 year plan.

Simply.

[OpIv37]

Nice, all the doom and gloom psychics are in one thread. Thank you for informing me of the losing season ahead. I will save myself by not watching any games this upcoming season. :rolleyes:

that's your choice- I'm still going to watch the games. But I'm not anticipating being able to enjoy the outcomes.

[OpIv37]

We are year 2 of a 3 year plan.

Simply.

then why did Marv publically state that we're not rebuilding?

[The Answer]

We are year 2 of a 3 year plan.

Simply.

No we are in year 7 of the 10 year plan - similar to a lot of unispired college students nowadays working on their sociology, women studies, and other useless degrees.

~The Answer

[SquishDaFish]

Ace some people dont understand that. They think the past few years of bad gm moves has something to do with MArv because hes OLD LMAO

[gr8slayer]

I'm getting tired of losing like everyone but until we get worse record wise I stand behind anything Marv does 100%

[Mr. Miyagi]

that's your choice- I'm still going to watch the games. But I'm not anticipating being able to enjoy the outcomes.
That says to me "Fine I'll go but I won't like it."

I've heard that from 6 year olds.

[SquishDaFish]

No we are in year 7 of the 10 year plan - similar to a lot of unispired college students nowadays working on their sociology, women studies, and other useless degrees.

~The Answer

I didnt know Marv has been GM that long. Its been a long time of bad decisions with the GMs not concentrating on the lines which has cause marv to reMOLD this team. Hes doing it right this time and seeing that he is I can be patient and let him get it done.

Once it is done we should be able to enjoy a good stretch of winning football.

[OpIv37]

Thank you! This is where the circle must end. Yes, some folks blindly support the team without thinking for themselves and this is wrong. However, we have a handful of grown men on this board who miraculously menstrate like the women they should've been and complain to no end.

Yes, losing sucks. Yes, I'm sick of losing. Yes, I'm sick of being the lauging stock of the league. Yes, I wish we would have made more moves in free agency to this point. Yes, I will be disappointed if Spikes is traded.

Now that we all agree on a few things - let's look at this realistically. We could run the team just like the Redskins had done over several years and then we'd be - oh, nevermind. They were no better than us. Worse in many cases. But, boy what a splash they made. I mean who wins more in March than Washington? I'm soooo jealous.

On the other hand we could go the Bills route over the last several years and flip coaches, GM's, players, etc. everytime something goes wrong. That (which is what people are STILL SUGGESTING AFTER ONE SEASON WITH THE CURRENT REGIME!!!) obviously didn't work out so well for us.

How about this - let's see if old Marv and the boys indeed know what they're doing. Don't start telling me that it's obvious that they don't. No it's not. Don't be ridiculous. They had a pretty good draft last season and a not-so-good free agency. Fowler was solid. Tripplett didn't live up to expectations, but if you understand the defense they run you also understand that you can't really put a lot of the blame on him.

As for Spikes - The team is not running him out of town. All recent reports are showing that not only is he asking for a trade, but he and his agent are actively looking for takers. I don't blame him or the team. He's been through he** and back with us and just needs a change of scenery. The Bills, at this point and with this type of youth, have no incentive to bring back a disgruntled veteran. The team worked hard on builiding a supportive locker room. Let's at the very least keep that trend going. I'm not saying Spikes is a cancer (he's not, he's a great presence), but it's natural to act and perform differently when you're unhappy.

Here's to a successful draft and a couple more free agent signings. Go Bills.

First, there is a balance between doing what the Redskins did and doing nothing. I'm so ****ing sick of the Redskins example. We filled ONE hole in FA. That's it- ONE, from a 7-9 team. We can do better than that without trying to buy a championship like the Skins.

Second, what happens if we're wrong this time like we were the last two times? It will be over a decade of losing? I think it would be stupid to fire the coaches and GM at this point, but I have never been happy with Jauron and I fear that's where we're headed.

Third, Spikes is a competitor- always has been. He may be "disgruntled", but it's in his nature to be competitive so once he gets on the field it won't matter. He's still better than anyone else we have and hence it's in our best interest to keep him and have him split time with a rookie while that rookie gets seasoned. Plus, it's one less hole we have to fill and gives us some LB depth, which we currently don't have.

[OpIv37]

That says to me "Fine I'll go but I won't like it."

I've heard that from 6 year olds.

well you enjoy losing. I sure as hell can't. I love it how you and BillsIn05 insult me rather than address the points I made. What does that tell you about the arguments on your side?

[patmoran2006]

Wilsons 1 mistake which I would blame him for is hiring IDIOTS who do not concentrate on the LINES 1st! Donadick screwed us fans all over. Yes he brought some good big name players in and drafted decent but you CANNOT win in the NFL with CRAP for Lines PERIOD!

None of what we did in the past few years is Marvs fault. His age doesnt matter so stop bringing that up. Marv is doing a damn good job. Yes it would be nice to go out and sign every big name. Who wouldnt love that.

We have to rebuild like we are a new team thanx for the lack of attention on the MAIN area that needed the most attention. How could anyone blame marv for wanting to build this team right. We are not going to win the Superbowl this year so why not get what you can for the cancers off the team.

I dont care if Marv had experience as a GM before. I care what hes doing now and hes doing exactly what I wish someone would of done a long time ago.
Seriously think of MArvs teams that Polian put on the field for him. Good lines!

I dont mind people being unhappy with not winning because I am one of them also. But as long as I see progress im not going to cry a river. We are now seeing progress finally. Shouldnt that make you happy?

Im sick of seeing losing teams also but lets give marv some time to get this mess fixed. I see the progress alt of people do. Its the impatient ones who dont see it.
First of all, dont say Levy's age doesnt matter because it does. He's 81 years old and to expect a nice long-term run as GM is ignorant. It's science that when you hit that age things can change in a heartbeat. yes, it can happen to a 40-year old as well but science says the probability of someone in their 80's falling ill is a hell of a lot more likely.

As for the lines, I wouldnt say Marv is off to a "damn good start either". I like the Dockery signing and should make an impact. SChobel is a Pro bowler (which Levy had nothing to do with bringing in).

Kelsay just got paid like an impact player. He better be one, or that is 100% on Marv. Tripplett didnt even show up for the half the games last year. Tim ANderson was brought back by Levy, therefore is now a Marv guy, NOT a TD guy. Same exact thing with RYan Denney. So the DL is still a MESS and Marv's fingerprints are all over it. Schobel is the one stud, and he was a TD guy. Everybody else we signed (Tripplett), drafted (mccargo, williams), traded for (hargrove) or resigned (kelsay, denney, anderson) is all on MARV>

Offensively things are more promising on the OL. Jason Peters is a monster (who is also a TD finding- kinda funny for such a horrible GM our two best linemen on the team are still TD guys). Dockery could be great guard.. Fowler is the one Marv signing last year that actually played like it mattered. He got rid of trash in Villarrial (TD guy) and Reyes (the dumbest Marv signing to date)... Walker is a total mystery to me, and I'm baffled by his signing, we'll have to wait and see.

Point being.. on BOTH sides of the line, at this points its LEVY's fingerprints on it. The only fingerprints left from TD on the line are the two best players; Peters and Schobel.

[OpIv37]

Ace some people dont understand that. They think the past few years of bad gm moves has something to do with MArv because hes OLD LMAO

unless you've only been a Bills fan since Marv took over, what difference does it make how long Marv has been a GM? The fact that Marv is GM doesn't mean those 6 prior seasons never happened. As a fan, I still remember them. They're still in the record books. Losing is losing.

[Mr. Miyagi]

well you enjoy losing. I sure as hell can't. I love it how you and BillsIn05 insult me rather than address the points I made. What does that tell you about the arguments on your side?
I've tried forming arguments with you. It doesn't work because you're determined to be negative whatever the subject is. So I give up.

Go ahead and be miserable. I just wish you'd stop dragging everyone else down with you.

[OpIv37]

I've tried forming arguments with you. It doesn't work because you're determined to be negative whatever the subject is. So I give up.

Go ahead and be miserable. I just wish you'd stop dragging everyone else down with you.
well anyone who's not miserable either isn't a fan or isn't paying attention. Your arguments just justify mediocrity. I repeat the challenge: tell me one way in which our 27th ranked run D has been improved since the season ended?

[acehole]

then why did Marv publically state that we're not rebuilding?


Kind of a downer to FA's and fans no?

We lost some games last year by 3 pionts or less....we win a few of those we are in the playoffs..........Reloading might be a better term.

[gr8slayer]

First of all, dont say Levy's age doesnt matter because it does. He's 81 years old and to expect a nice long-term run as GM is ignorant. It's science that when you hit that age things can change in a heartbeat. yes, it can happen to a 40-year old as well but science says the probability of someone in their 80's falling ill is a hell of a lot more likely.

As for the lines, I wouldnt say Marv is off to a "damn good start either". I like the Dockery signing and should make an impact. SChobel is a Pro bowler (which Levy had nothing to do with bringing in).

Kelsay just got paid like an impact player. He better be one, or that is 100% on Marv. Tripplett didnt even show up for the half the games last year. Tim ANderson was brought back by Levy, therefore is now a Marv guy, NOT a TD guy. Same exact thing with RYan Denney. So the DL is still a MESS and Marv's fingerprints are all over it. Schobel is the one stud, and he was a TD guy. Everybody else we signed (Tripplett), drafted (mccargo, williams), traded for (hargrove) or resigned (kelsay, denney, anderson) is all on MARV>

Offensively things are more promising on the OL. Jason Peters is a monster (who is also a TD finding- kinda funny for such a horrible GM our two best linemen on the team are still TD guys). Dockery could be great guard.. Fowler is the one Marv signing last year that actually played like it mattered. He got rid of trash in Villarrial (TD guy) and Reyes (the dumbest Marv signing to date)... Walker is a total mystery to me, and I'm baffled by his signing, we'll have to wait and see.

Point being.. on BOTH sides of the line, at this points its LEVY's fingerprints on it. The only fingerprints left from TD on the line are the two best players; Peters and Schobel.
Peters may have been brought on during the Donahoe era but what makes you think it was him that brought him in? You think he was out there scouting him on a daily basis? I don't.

Schobel was a steal, I'll give you that one.

Had we not signed Walker you would have been *****ing about how bad Marv is at letting talent slip through his hands.

Tripplett may have not had great stats last year but he put some damn good pressure on the QB last year. Pressure (IMO) is just as good as a sack because it makes QB's do stupid things (i.e. Culpepper.)

Reyes, who cares? Marv signed him to a short-term, low paying contract, it was a win win situation. He sucks you cut him and lose nothing.

Kelsay is a seasoned vet that has improved every year he has been in the league. He is a leader, and intense. I don't know how many times I have to say it so I'll say it again. YOU ARE GOING TO SEE ALOT OF BIG CONTRACTS NOW THAT THE CAP HAS GONE UP.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I already did. Did you read my thread at all?

[OpIv37]

I already did. Did you read my thread at all?

you stated while the guys we lost weren't huge losses. You still haven't offered any evidence that the guys we have are any better. You and the FO are banking the whole thing on McCargo being healthy and one year of experience. That's insane when we lost 3 starters.

[patmoran2006]

Peters may have been brought on during the Donahoe era but what makes you think it was him that brought him in? You think he was out there scouting him on a daily basis? I don't.

LOL
And you think levy was out there scouting Kyle Williams, Keith Ellison and Terrence Pennington?

Be fair if you want to trash TD

[patmoran2006]

And for the record.

I ***** a ton (and will continue to do so) because I think this team is CLOSE to being a good team, but will NOT do what it takes to make them legitimate contenders.

and I NEVER once said spend like Washington either so dont go there.

[SquishDaFish]

Yes I remember them also. But was it MArvs fault? NO!
Give the man a chance at fixing what we are unhappy about. Its only his 2nd year. Give him somewhat of a chance to finish what he started. He cant do it all in 1 year. And Pat yes you are right about some of those moves. McCargo and Williams can still be good moves they are young. Hargrove from what Ive been reading is someone the fans like and want to stay here.

I hope Kelsey has a monster year so you can eat crow and your damn foot!

[OpIv37]

I hope Kelsey has a monster year so you can eat crow and your damn foot!

This team has way too much money tied up in Kelsay and Denney for their production. Same goes for Price/Reed and Royal.

[jamesiscool]

Yes I remember them also. But was it MArvs fault? NO!
Give the man a chance at fixing what we are unhappy about. Its only his 2nd year. Give him somewhat of a chance to finish what he started. He cant do it all in 1 year. And Pat yes you are right about some of those moves. McCargo and Williams can still be good moves they are young. Hargrove from what Ive been reading is someone the fans like and want to stay here.

I hope Kelsey has a monster year so you can eat crow and your damn foot!
:clap: :respect:

[gr8slayer]

LOL
And you think levy was out there scouting Kyle Williams, Keith Ellison and Terrence Pennington?

Be fair if you want to trash TD
I'm not giving Levy credit for them, all a GM does is pull the button. They have a couple dozen guys that do nothing but watch film and give their opinions on certain players. He takes their opinions, maybe watches some film and then pulls the trigger. Personally I think Marv did a better job drafting last year than TD did his whole time here.

[patmoran2006]

I'm not giving Levy credit for them, all a GM does is pull the button. They have a couple dozen guys that do nothing but watch film and give their opinions on certain players. He takes their opinions, maybe watches some film and then pulls the trigger. Personally I think Marv did a better job drafting last year than TD did his whole time here.
I think for his first draft, Marv did a TREMENDOUS job on day two of the draft, and I think (and only time will tell of course) that he did an average to subpar job on day one.

Ngata and Mangold would've owned the middle of the lines for us.

[SquishDaFish]

Ill give you that Pat Mangold or Nagata would of been an awesome pick and I was acc hoping for those 2. But I am very happy the way the draft went for Marv.

[gr8slayer]

I think for his first draft, Marv did a TREMENDOUS job on day two of the draft, and I think (and only time will tell of course) that he did an average to subpar job on day one.

Ngata and Mangold would've owned the middle of the lines for us.
Ngata is the anti-cover 2 when it comes to the DL and drafting Mangold would have made no sense when we already had signed Fowler (who I am very happy with.)

In retrospect drafting Colston would have made more sense than anyone we drafted last year but that's just how it is.

[SquishDaFish]

Colston was a very lucky pick.

[gr8slayer]

Colston was a very lucky pick.
My point is we can retrospect all day long but the fact is the draft is done with and we didn't draft Mangold or Ngata so why talk about "what if."

And isn't the draft just that? Luck............... There is no such thing as a "sure thing," so go with the guy YOU think is the best for your team, not the guy the experts think is best for your team.

[justasportsfan]

HAha! Bringing in FA's, getting rid of cancers, draft are all part of rebuilding.

If you're sick of rebuilding there's nothing you can do. Switch teams. It's not Marv's fault that we're rebuilding. Sheez.

[OpIv37]

HAha! Bringing in FA's, getting rid of cancers, draft are all part of rebuilding.



Spikes is hardly a "cancer". The guy's a competitor and even if he doesn't want to be here, his competitive drive would take over once he hit the field. And if he needs to be replaced, fine- replace him. But FA is over (for all intensive purposes) and that hasn't been done.

What FA's? We didn't bring in any FA's on D this year, and all the FA's we brought in last year were mediocre to bad.

Draft? Draft DL help, a #2 WR, a TE a FB, a starting LB, LB depth, a CB or at least CB depth, a starting RB.... yeah, that'll happen :rolleyes:

Is overpaying Kelsey, Reed and Price part of rebuilding? What about bringing in success stories like Tripplett and Royal?

[justasportsfan]

Spikes is hardly a "cancer". The guy's a competitor and even if he doesn't want to be here, his competitive drive would take over once he hit the field.

What FA's? We didn't bring in any FA's on D this year, and all the FA's we brought in last year were mediocre to bad.

Draft? Draft DL help, a #2 WR, a TE a FB, a starting LB, LB depth, a CB or at least CB depth, a starting RB.... yeah, that'll happen :rolleyes:

Is overpaying Kelsey, Reed and Price part of rebuilding? What about bringing in success stories like Tripplett and Royal?


where did I say he was the cancer? Sheez OP, what is it about moving forward you don't understand. Even if we keep Spikes there's no guarantee he'll be good. Even if he becomes good , he could be gone next year and then you'll be whining again that we're rebuilding forver.

Go cheer for the redskins. They always bring in vets. But I'm sure inspite of their ways, you'll be *****ing that they've been rebuilding every year.


We brought in FA for the OL. Tell me, how old was Thurman and Bruce Smith when Marv came in? Some of them hardly had a year but they grew together. If you stop our young guys from getting experience they'll never grow and you'll be *****ing again?


The colts do it, the Pats do it the 90's bills did it. . Give the FO who's had 1 year a chance before you start crying like a baby (wishful thinking on my part)


You guys talk like we've been rebuilding forever ubder the new FO. NO!!!!

[SquishDaFish]

Great posting Justa. If TKO asked to be traded then SEE YA! We need team players that want to be HERE! That is how you make a cohesive unit that wants to play together. Thats how the Pats were built! Im very happy with MArvs direction so far. I love TKO as much as most Bills fans but if he doesnt want to be here then see ya.

[OpIv37]

where did I say he was the cancer? Sheez OP, what is it about moving forward you don't understand. Even if we keep Spikes there's no guarantee he'll be good. Even if he becomes good , he could be gone next year and then you'll be whining again that we're rebuilding forver.

Go cheer for the redskins. They always bring in vets. But I'm sure inspite of their ways, you'll be *****ing that they've been rebuilding every year.


We brought in FA for the OL. Tell me, how old was Thurman and Bruce Smith when Marv came in? Some of them hardly had a year but they grew together. If you stop our young guys from getting experience they'll never grow and you'll be *****ing again?


The colts do it, the Pats do it the 90's bills did it. . Give the FO who's had 1 year a chance before you start crying like a baby (wishful thinking on my part)


You guys talk like we've been rebuilding forever ubder the new FO. NO!!!!

I don't know why I bother with you.

First THERE IS A MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN WHAT THE REDSKINS DO AND WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING. Plugging holes does NOT mean bringing in every expensive FA out there- it means bringing in a few key guys to stop the bleeding. We brought in ONE key guy- on a 7-9 team that isn't good enough, especially when the D was neglected completely.

Second, WE CAN WORK ON GROOMING SPIKES' REPLACEMENT WHEN HE'S STILL HERE. A rookie and Spikes is better than a rookie OR Spikes because having two players decreases the risk. Or, to put it another way: PREPARE FOR A PLAYER'S DEPARTURE BEFORE THAT PLAYER IS GONE. The Pats win because one one guy leaves or goes down, the guy behind him is just as good or better. We don't have anyone like that at the moment. Get it? I don't understand why you can't see that.

And please, please please stop with this "Marv only had one year" BS. I've been a Bills fan for much longer than one year. Losing seasons don't suddenly stop counting because Marv only had one year. We still had to endure them as fans.

[gr8slayer]

I don't know why I bother with you.

First THERE IS A MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN WHAT THE REDSKINS DO AND WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING. Plugging holes does NOT mean bringing in every expensive FA out there- it means bringing in a few key guys to stop the bleeding. We brought in ONE key guy- on a 7-9 team that isn't good enough, especially when the D was neglected completely.

Second, WE CAN WORK ON GROOMING SPIKES' REPLACEMENT WHEN HE'S STILL HERE. A rookie and Spikes is better than a rookie OR Spikes because having two players decreases the risk. Or, to put it another way: PREPARE FOR A PLAYER'S DEPARTURE BEFORE THAT PLAYER IS GONE. Get it? I don't understand why you can't see that.
Dockery and Walker are both instant starters, that's improvement to me.

I still want to know when Spikes got traded? Last I checked he was still here.

[OpIv37]

Dockery and Walker are both instant starters, that's improvement to me.

I still want to know when Spikes got traded? Last I checked he was still here.

if you must know, someone started a thread that the trade happened and it turned out to be BS- I wrote this in wake of that. But he's as good as gone- believe me. It's been too heavily reported for it not to happen at this point.

[justasportsfan]

I don't know why I bother with you.

First THERE IS A MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN WHAT THE REDSKINS DO AND WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING. Plugging holes does NOT mean bringing in every expensive FA out there- it means bringing in a few key guys to stop the bleeding. We brought in ONE key guy- on a 7-9 team that isn't good enough, especially when the D was neglected completely.

Second, WE CAN WORK ON GROOMING SPIKES' REPLACEMENT WHEN HE'S STILL HERE. A rookie and Spikes is better than a rookie OR Spikes because having two players decreases the risk. Or, to put it another way: PREPARE FOR A PLAYER'S DEPARTURE BEFORE THAT PLAYER IS GONE. Get it? I don't understand why you can't see that.


How do you know that we didn't groom his replacement last year? Because you think so?

I edited my last post. The Pats, Colts and the bills 90's build via the draft. It's a proven process but you're to whiny to give it a chance.


Actually, I'm the one who should ask why I bother with crybabies? If you can't handle the rebuilding process, switch teams . Its that simple.


Maybe we should've given up on players like JP because he was too young and didn't have experience? We shouldn't have bothered GROOMING HIM. Same goes with Evans, why bother giving them experience? :coocoo:

[OpIv37]

How do you know that we didn't groom his replacement last year? Because you think so?

I edited my last post. The Pats, Colts and the bills 90's build via the draft.


Actually, I'm the one who should ask why I bother with crybabies? If you can't handle the rebyilding process, switch teams . Its that simple.

Um, the only LB's who got significant time last year were Spikes, Fletcher, Ellison and Crowell. Fletcher is gone and Spikes is as good as gone. That leaves Ellison and Crowell- who's left to have been groomed?

Like I said, the Pats win cuz when someone leaves or goes down, the next guy can step up and do just as good. Well, guys are dropping like flies from this team and we don't have anyone who can step in.

And why can teams like the Jets and Saints go from losing records to playoffs in 1 year, but rebuilding takes us 7 and counting?

[justasportsfan]

Um, the only LB's who got significant time last year were Spikes, Fletcher, Ellison and Crowell. Fletcher is gone and Spikes is as good as gone. That leaves Ellison and Crowell- who's left to have been groomed?

Like I said, the Pats win cuz when someone leaves or goes down, the next guy can step up and do just as good. Well, guys are dropping like flies from this team and we don't have anyone who can step in.

And why can teams like the Jets and Saints go from losing records to playoffs in 1 year, but rebuilding takes us 7 and counting?

again edited my last post. Why did wegive both Evans significant experience and JP when they harldy ever had experience. Why bother GROOMING them?

You talk like were replacing guys who werent questionable. Fletcher was questionable against the run and is getting OLD , Spikes has injury problems. Just like Evans and JP, time for Digiorgio and Ellison to have their shot and grow together as a unit. That's the only to be successful.


How the hell do you know our young players cannot step up just like the Patriots if you don't give them the chance and experience? It's simple common sense.


Al the players you a *****ing about were once young and grew through experience. Helloo!

[SquishDaFish]

WE HAVE NOT BEEN REBUILDING THE CURRENT TEAM FOR & YEARS JESUS!
Whenever you change GMs thats when rebuilding starts. Marv is doing it the right way IMHO. The other Gms didnt! Let MARV WORK! We will see progress. Which will lead to some winning seasons if the whiners dont get their way with him being drivin out already!

[OpIv37]

again edited my last post. Why did we both giving Evans significant experience and JP when they harldy ever had experience. Why bother GROOMING them?

You talk like were replacing guys who werent questionable. Fletcher was questionable against the run and is getting OLD , Spikes has injury problems. Just like Evans and JP, time for Digiorgio and Ellison to have their shot and grow together as a unit. That's the only to be successful.


How the hell do you know our young players cannot step up just like the Patriots if you don't give them the chance and experience? It's simple common sense.


Al the players you a *****ing about were once young and grew through experience. Helloo!

How do I know? Because you said yourself the guys like Fletcher were struggling last year, but somehow the guys like DiGiorgio still didn't manage to take their spot on the field. You're suggesting that underperforming players can be replaced by the guys who weren't good enough to take their starting spots. That's completely illogical.

As far as Evans, was he the only WR on our roster? No, we had Moulds, Reed and a few others when he came on. No one spectacular, but guys who at least had some experience. And at WR, you can groom players slowly by starting them in 3 and 4 receiver sets. We're talking about using someone COMPLETELY unproven as the starting LB who will be on the field for the majority of defensive downs.

As far as Losman, it's apples and oranges. Grooming a QB SUCKS and there is no way to do it without taking lumps. That's not necessarily true about other positions where it's easier to rotate players in.

[OpIv37]

oh, not to mention we already have a ton of young guys like Ellison, McCargo, Youboty, Whitner, Simpson and Williams playing on D. How many young guys are you going to put on the field at the same time?

[The Answer]

HAha! Bringing in FA's, getting rid of cancers, draft are all part of rebuilding.

If you're sick of rebuilding there's nothing you can do. Switch teams. It's not Marv's fault that we're rebuilding. Sheez.

More like bringing in 2nd/3rd tier FA's that nobody else wants, getting rid of star players (minus McGahee), drafting 6th round calibur prospects on day one, etc.

And you can say it's not Marv's fault, but so far he's following in Donahoe's footsteps for the most part - especially since Tom Modrak is still pulling the strings behind the scenes.

~The Answer

[The Answer]

oh, not to mention we already have a ton of young guys like Ellison, McCargo, Youboty, Whitner, Simpson and Williams playing on D. How many young guys are you going to put on the field at the same time?

Enough to be ranked #32 overall in points and yards allowed.

~The Answer

[SquishDaFish]

We drafted 6th round prospects on day 1? What the hell draft were you watching? One with questions and no answers? Or answers with no questions? Im sick of reading your posts.

[OpIv37]

Enough to be ranked #32 overall in points and yards allowed.

~The Answer

apparently that's the idea.

[justasportsfan]

By the whiners logic, we should never have given JP , Evans, Whitner , Simpson the experience they needed because that would mean we're rebuilding. Genius!


Let's not draft anyone anymore because we will need to GROOM them eventually just like JP and co. Let's just keep grabbing players from other teams expecially their stars and forget theres such a thing as a cap. Let's grab Briggs and give up our draft picks.Genius!

[SquishDaFish]

Your guys posts are pathetic! Im done responding to this garbage.

[patmoran2006]

Accept for a groan and the occasional quirky one-liner, do you ever actually respond to a topic to begin with?

[The Answer]

We drafted 6th round prospects on day 1? What the hell draft were you watching? One with questions and no answers? Or answers with no questions? Im sick of reading your posts.

Then don't read them and put The Answer on your ignore list like the rest of the immature people who can't deal with reading an opinion that is different than yours on an internet message board.

McCargo wasn't a 1st round pick, Whitner wasn't a top 10 prospect, etc. Believe what you want though.

~The Answer

[HHURRICANE]

Spikes, Fletcher, Clements, McGahee and going back to last year Posey, Milloy, Vincent, Adams... all gone and mostly replaced by young guys with little to no experience, which is a huge gamble.


Yeah, when they were here we were guaranteed a 6-10 season.

I think I'll take the Chemotherapy at this point as the alterative wasn't looking that good.

[OpIv37]

By the whiners logic, we should never have given JP , Evans, Whitner , Simpson the experience they needed because that would mean we're rebuilding. Genius!


Let's not draft anyone anymore because we will need to GROOM them eventually just like JP and co. Let's just keep grabbing players from other teams expecially their stars and forget theres such a thing as a cap. Let's grab Briggs and give up our draft picks.Genius!

mother ****er, PAY ATTENTION!

You only groom so many players at a time. You groom players in situations where they don't have to be on the field constantly. You can't just put a whole bunch of guys on the field who ALL need to be groomed and expect good things to happen. You keep saying that Spikes and Fletcher were mediocre on the field last year (which they were), yet somehow you think the guys who couldn't win their starting jobs are going to do BETTER than they did.

What's wrong with bringing in or retaining a vet or two and grooming new players AROUND them?

When we groomed JP, we didn't put him on the field with three rookie OL's and two rookie WR's. When we groomed Evans, we didn't make him the #1 target on all the passing plays.

Your idea of grooming is "baptism by fire" and that's going to get us killed.

[The Answer]

apparently that's the idea.

Don't worry The Answer is sure the homers will spin it as: 'The Colts won the superbowl last year with the leagues worst rushing defense, so there's hope even though our defense is being lit up like a pinball machine week after week with inexperienced, undertalented 1st and 2nd year players'.

~The Answer

[OpIv37]

Yeah, when they were here we were guaranteed a 6-10 season.

I think I'll take the Chemotherapy at this point as the alterative wasn't looking that good.

6-10 cuz we had no OFFENSE- our D was No. 2 in the ENTIRE NFL when all those guys were here.

[The Answer]

Your guys posts are pathetic! Im done responding to this garbage.

BillsIN05 ------------->:baby:<----------Marv Levy

~The Answer

[justasportsfan]

mother ****er, PAY ATTENTION!

You only groom so many players at a time. You groom players in situations where they don't have to be on the field constantly. You can't just put a whole bunch of guys on the field who ALL need to be groomed and expect good things to happen. You keep saying that Spikes and Fletcher were mediocre on the field last year (which they were), yet somehow you think the guys who couldn't win their starting jobs are going to do BETTER than they did.

What's wrong with bringing in or retaining a vet or two and grooming new players AROUND them?

When we groomed JP, we didn't put him on the field with three rookie OL's and two rookie WR's. When we groomed Evans, we didn't make him the #1 target on all the passing plays.

Your idea of grooming is "baptism by fire" and that's going to get us killed.


WAAAAHr. read my post in the other thread, SPIKES will not want to play part time especially when he wants to impress other teams for when he leaves.

Make Spikes rotational and when his replacement is ready, bench Spikes. Genius! In YOUR Dreams.

[patmoran2006]

BillsIN05 ------------->:baby:<----------Marv Levy

~The Answer
Id show you a better graphic, but it would get me suspended.

[Saratoga Slim]

Enough to be ranked #32 overall in points and yards allowed.

~The Answer

We were ranked 10th in points allowed last year. 18th in yards allowed.

[justasportsfan]

Hey whiners, why do you think Briggs wants out of Chicago? because he knows he's not part of their future. DUH!!!!

[patmoran2006]

WAAAAHr. read my post in the other thread, SPIKES will not want to play part time especially when he wants to impress other teams for when he leaves.

Make Spikes rotational and when his replacement is ready, bench Spikes. Genius! In YOUR Dreams.
Who said spikes is a part-time player?

I've said all along. Bring him to the camp.. If he's anything like he was prior to his injuries, then you have a Pro Bowl LB on your team.

If he's not efficient out there in training camp, then you cut him. It doesnt take rocket science to figure that out.

Trading him right now for a 5th-6th round draft choice is nothing more than a scummy Ralph Wilson financial recoup move.. NOthing more, nothing less.

[justasportsfan]

Who said spikes is a part-time player?

I've said all along. Bring him to the camp.. If he's anything like he was prior to his injuries, then you have a Pro Bowl LB on your team.

If he's not efficient out there in training camp, then you cut him. It doesnt take rocket science to figure that out.

Trading him right now for a 5th-6th round draft choice is nothing more than a scummy Ralph Wilson financial recoup move.. NOthing more, nothing less.


Do you know how to comprehend? It was a response to OP posts.

Yeah bring him into camp, that's what I wanted too but I also see the FO's side. If he doesn't perform well in camp you cut him? What are you gonna get for him when you just told the entire NFL, he's DONE!!!!


Leave him out to dry?


WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO OTHER PLAYERS IN THIS LEAGUE ABOUT OUR ORGANIZATION? DUH!!!!!

YOu'd make a genius GM .

[The Answer]

We were ranked 10th in points allowed last year. 18th in yards allowed.

Not going to be the case this year with all the new faces. As overrated as Clements was he's still better than Toast McGee and a lot of other DB's out there.

We couldn't stop the run when it matter and now the holes will be even larger with all the turnover.

~The Answer

[The Answer]

Hey whiners, why do you think Briggs wants out of Chicago? because he knows he's not part of their future. DUH!!!!

And he's not part of our future either $$$$$$$$

~The Answer

[patmoran2006]

Do you know how to comprehend? It was a response to OP posts.

Yeah bring him into camp, that's what I wanted too but I also see the FO's side. If he doesn't perform well in camp you cut him? What are you gonna get for him when you just told the entire NFL, he's DONE!!!!


Leave him out to dry?


WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO OTHER PLAYERS IN THIS LEAGUE ABOUT OUR ORGANIZATION? DUH!!!!!

YOu'd make a genius GM .
i'll take a chance that I have a Pro Bowl quality LB in my camp, and then if I dont; cut him and get nothing for him.

Before I'll just give him away for a late round draft choice before I see what I have; just becuase my owner wants to recoup his money.

If you think trading Spikes is about performance over money, when our "depth" consists of Coy Wire, Mario Haggans and DiGorgio-- then you are either really blind or really ignorant.

[justasportsfan]

i'll take a chance that I have a Pro Bowl quality LB in my camp, and then if I dont; cut him and get nothing for him.

Before I'll just give him away for a late round draft choice before I see what I have; just becuase my owner wants to recoup his money.

If you think trading Spikes is about performance over money, when our "depth" consists of Coy Wire, Mario Haggans and DiGorgio-- then you are either really blind or really ignorant. In either case, I'll personally buy you the Jills cheerleading outfit.


Like I said, if he doesn't perform let's just screw him over. Hopefully that will attract players to the bills. Not to mention the players on this team. You just told them we'll screw you over too when the time comes.

"hey Lee and JP, you better not get injured or we'll screw you over . BTW, wanna sign an extension?" GENIUS! MArv's may be old but he's not that stupid.


You should be the GM for the pop warner team that ICE coaches. a match made in heaven.

[patmoran2006]

Giving him the opportunity to come to training camp and show that he's still the same Takeo Spikes we PAID A PILE OF MONEY TO ACQUIRE is screwing him over? And if he's not, then cutting him is screwing him over?

Get a clue.

[justasportsfan]

Giving him the opportunity to come to training camp and show that he's still the same Takeo Spikes we PAID A PILE OF MONEY TO ACQUIRE is screwing him over? And if he's not, then cutting him is screwing him over?

Get a clue.
cutting him if he can't perform just put a " REJECT/DAMAGED" sign on his forehead. In the meantime, we just swallowed a 4.9 miilion dead cap. You get a clue.

[patmoran2006]

cutting him if he can't perform just put a " REJECT" sign on his forehead. In the meantime, we just swallowed a 4.9 miilion dead cap. You get a clue.
No.. YOU GET A CLUE, cause if we trade him we swallow the DEAD CAP SPACE ANYWAY! Why do you think Philly would redo his deal before trading for him? are you SERIOUS?

[justasportsfan]

No.. YOU GET A CLUE, cause if we trade him we swallow the DEAD CAP SPACE ANYWAY! Why do you think Philly would redo his deal before trading for him? are you SERIOUS?


I forgot to add....and get nothing in return.

So, care to send that warning to our players?

[YardRat]

4.9 won't be the dead cap number, I believe, because that includes this years' salary, and the team won't be responsible for that...just the amortized bonus that's left for this year and any in the future.

Just my two cents...

If all we're going to get for Takeo is day two picks (nothing on day one or a player in return) the trade just doesn't make sense from any angle other than financial. Give the man a chance to prove he can return to form, unless the bottom line is he just doesn't want to be here anymore, then get what you can for him.

[patmoran2006]

We shouldnt be fighting on this topic because you want Spikes here as much as I do.

So stop defending it like its not a stupid, money-motivated trade.

[justasportsfan]

We shouldnt be fighting on this topic because you want Spikes here as much as I do.

So stop defending it like its not a stupid, money-motivated trade.


But I am not close minded to what the FO is trying to do. I am trying to see the other angles to this situation. You on the other hand imply they are intentionally trying to lose games by saying they are not committed to winning but simply saving a buck.

It's not like they didn't do their homework on Spikes situation, like you guys make it out to be.

[SquishDaFish]

If we keep him and then cut him in camp that is sending the wrong message to our current players and future FAs we want to come to Buffalo. NOONE is going to want to play for that type of organization. If he wants out now then grant his wish and find a suiter and MOVE ON

[SquishDaFish]

And Mr NO CLUE(answer) your insults dont bother me seeing your so cool to be talking in the 3rd person which by the way is so damn cool and getting Very...VERY OLD!

[justasportsfan]

If we keep him and then cut him in camp that is sending the wrong message to our current players and future FAs we want to come to Buffalo. NOONE is going to want to play for that type of organization. If he wants out now then grant his wish and find a suiter and MOVE ON


:10: :D

Thats' how Spikes felt when we cut Vincent.

[OpIv37]

If we keep him and then cut him in camp that is sending the wrong message to our current players and future FAs we want to come to Buffalo. NOONE is going to want to play for that type of organization. If he wants out now then grant his wish and find a suiter and MOVE ON

no one is going to want to play for an organization that brings a bunch of players into camp and cuts the ones that aren't as good? Yeah, that DOES sound like a pretty screwy way to run a sports team! :rolleyes:

[acehole]

If I may chime in....
QB WR and OL are not positions that one can do that(Plug in rookie) with really. Unless there is alot I mean alot of talent around them IE (P Rivers).Those postitions require much more experience then SS or FS or DT (As they rotate anyway) yes even Linebacker. You can just throw a rookie in those spots especially a D Witner or a Willis or a R Alexander for that mater. So you are both right kinda sorta. Op I dont think T Spikes wanted to be in that roll of "Groomer" the Bills obliged. I think you will see that there is a method to the madness soon enough....weather a trade up or trade for player we have been eyeballing...all the peices will soon be in place...and holes not only filled but filled with guys who want to be here young hungry team player guys...in the M Levi mold as it is now his team. We have the makings a good young team here.QB, OL AND 1 WR are all set how long has it been..since we had the qb issue and OL issue to talk about? Did we forget? We have a great young DL (ONE DT away IMHO). A great young Secondary...some promising jorneymen at LB. Before kick off this year I believe you will be happy with the LB's. This team is close ...very close IMHO. Need a WR that can take pressure off Evans.....a running game (RBBC) is ok if we have to wait one more year for a stud so be it but the OL is built for it now... this year we will have a running game. ...... JP will be one year in an offense he likes... I think the purge is over. I think most of the peices will be found between this and next year. Enjoy the ride man.........and Pat that goes for you too! You remind me of a once nice teenager that goes goth on his parents.....cut that out. Opy is the typical mick who has to be in a fight to feel alive. To be honest it doent mater what either of you think....what will be will be.



mother ****er, PAY ATTENTION!

You only groom so many players at a time. You groom players in situations where they don't have to be on the field constantly. You can't just put a whole bunch of guys on the field who ALL need to be groomed and expect good things to happen. You keep saying that Spikes and Fletcher were mediocre on the field last year (which they were), yet somehow you think the guys who couldn't win their starting jobs are going to do BETTER than they did.

What's wrong with bringing in or retaining a vet or two and grooming new players AROUND them?

When we groomed JP, we didn't put him on the field with three rookie OL's and two rookie WR's. When we groomed Evans, we didn't make him the #1 target on all the passing plays.

Your idea of grooming is "baptism by fire" and that's going to get us killed.

[OpIv37]

If I may chime in....
QB WR and OL are not positions that one can do that(Plug in rookie) with really. Unless there is alot I mean alot of talent around them IE (P Rivers).Those postitions require much more experience then SS or FS or DT (As they rotate anyway) yes even Linebacker. You can just throw a rookie in those spots especially a D Witner or a Willis or a R Alexander for that mater. So you are both right kinda sorta. Op I dont think T Spikes wanted to be in that roll of "Groomer" the Bills obliged. I think you will see that there is a method to the madness soon enough....weather a trade up or trade for player we have been eyeballing...all the peices will soon be in place...and holes not only filled but filled with guys who want to be here young hungry team player guys...in the M Levi mold as it is now his team. We have the makings a good young team here.QB, OL AND 1 WR are all set how long has it been..since we had the qb issue and OL issue to talk about? Did we forget? We have a great young DL (ONE DT away IMHO). A great young Secondary...some promising jorneymen at LB. Before kick off this year I believe you will be happy with the LB's. This team is close ...very close IMHO. Need a WR that can take pressure off Evans.....a running game (RBBC) is ok if we have to wait one more year for a stud so be it but the OL is built for it now... this year we will have a running game. ...... JP will be one year in an offense he likes... I think the purge is over. I think most of the peices will be found between this and next year. Enjoy the ride man.........and Pat that goes for you too! You remind me of a once nice teenager that goes goth on his parents.....cut that out. Opy is the typical mick who has to be in a fight to feel alive. To be honest it doent mater what either of you think....what will be will be.

I totally disagree with you about the DL. We're one DE and two DT's from being decent.

[acehole]

I totally disagree with you about the DL. We're one DE and two DT's from being decent.

and I agree with you...allthough you can get away with one more (DT) as they are part time player in this offense. I would not mind a roll player (Pass Rusher) DE this off season. I think a stud in the Middle would make the DE's and the whole deffense better. Thats why I like Okie DT in the first round. Not only would it make C Kelsey better but schoble and mcargo better. I mean you cant double everyone. ...When the dline can get pressure guys like Youboty can prosper and Witner can work this deffense. We also had trouble with the run so it is my pick if I were GM in the first round. LB especially cover 2 LB's can be found much later in the Draft. Cato June was a safty for crying out loud.

Opy have a beer it will all work out.



**************************************
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[Dr. Lecter]

What is the Bills record so far in 2008?

[OpIv37]

What is the Bills record so far in 2008?

That's not the question. The questions are:
1. What was the Bills record in 2006? and
2. What have the Bills done or not done to improve on that in 2007?