Leadership

[Saratoga Slim]

I think the biggest thing that bothers me in Spikes/Fletcher's departure is the question of what kind of real defensive leadership is left on the roster. This article (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=4684) on bb.com discusses the fact that Schobel and Kelsay have been moved into the lockers formerly housing Spikes and Fletch--lockers normally reserved for team leaders.

The article then notes that Schobel doesn't talk much, and Kelsay doesn't really sound like he's in the same leadership league as Spikes/Fletcher (if you have to say you're a leader, you're probably not). However, Kelsay does say that he thinks Crowell and a couple other guys who had leadership roles in college will fill the void, but I'm only marginally convinced.

Think we should be concerned about this? or are there some personalities on this roster that have been previously held back by the presence of Spikes and Fletcher in leadership roles and that have the ability to take charge. Discuss.

[HHURRICANE]

Well we don't have anybody that can stir up a QB controversy or ***** when overaged vets get released. So we are definately weaker there.

[Jeff1220]

I'm hoping Whitener, and maybe Simpson, take over leadership roles. If they do it now, they'll provide leadership for a long time. It doesn't take natural leaders long to take charge, especially if when they back it up on the field. Btw, I loved Simpson's comments after the Miami game last year ("the big joker").

[Saratoga Slim]

Well we don't have anybody that can stir up a QB controversy or ***** when overaged vets get released. So we are definately weaker there.
yeah but do we have anyone that can stir up the defense on a big third down

[Jan Reimers]

I don't know anything about Walker, but he's a veteran with a lot of playoff experience.

[justasportsfan]

yeah but do we have anyone that can stir up the defense on a big third down

Crowell? Tripplett? ....... Hargrove :couch:

[patmoran2006]

I think you're really going to see Losman step up and be a leader this year

[justasportsfan]

I think you're really going to see Losman step up and be a leader this year


I hope so. He really wasn't allowed to do anything last year. Time to let the cuffs go.

[The Answer]

I think the biggest thing that bothers me in Spikes/Fletcher's departure is the question of what kind of real defensive leadership is left on the roster. This article (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=4684) on bb.com discusses the fact that Schobel and Kelsay have been moved into the lockers formerly housing Spikes and Fletch--lockers normally reserved for team leaders.

The article then notes that Schobel doesn't talk much, and Kelsay doesn't really sound like he's in the same leadership league as Spikes/Fletcher (if you have to say you're a leader, you're probably not). However, Kelsay does say that he thinks Crowell and a couple other guys who had leadership roles in college will fill the void, but I'm only marginally convinced.

Think we should be concerned about this? or are there some personalities on this roster that have been previously held back by the presence of Spikes and Fletcher in leadership roles and that have the ability to take charge. Discuss.

Don't forget about the other important leader/mentor we just lost as well:

http://umfleague.com/wall/kellyholcomb.jpg

[The Answer]

I think you're really going to see Losman step up and be a leader this year

The Answer agrees and is confident that Holcomb instilled his leadership qualities in Losman through his tutelage.

~The Answer

[Mr. Pink]

Holcomb as a leader is the single MOST ******ed thing I have read on this board. Thanks for the laugh.

All Holcomb has done in his career is hold a clipboard for Peyton Manning. Maybe according to you, KH taught Peyton everything he knows. Even how to act! "can you sign this loaf of bread for my brother, he loves you. YES!"

In Cleveland he divided a locker room among Couch and KH supporters off the basis of ONE game. ONE game. He's shown that he can never play in long stretches at a time and he sure as hell didn't help Tim become a better player nor help the Browns organization.

Here, oh look, he helped cause the same thing. Until the new front office put a stop to that real quick.

Holcomb has never been about helping, mentoring or tutelage. Who are you trying to fool?

[The Answer]

Holcomb as a leader is the single MOST ******ed thing I have read on this board. Thanks for the laugh.

All Holcomb has done in his career is hold a clipboard for Peyton Manning. Maybe according to you, KH taught Peyton everything he knows. Even how to act! "can you sign this loaf of bread for my brother, he loves you. YES!"

In Cleveland he divided a locker room among Couch and KH supporters off the basis of ONE game. ONE game. He's shown that he can never play in long stretches at a time and he sure as hell didn't help Tim become a better player nor help the Browns organization.

Here, oh look, he helped cause the same thing. Until the new front office put a stop to that real quick.

Holcomb has never been about helping, mentoring or tutelage. Who are you trying to fool?

He didn't teach Manning anything - And The Answer has never claimed that.

But you are right - he did tear about a lockeroom and fanbase apart in Cleveland becasue he was 10x better than the monumental #1 overall bust they drafted to be their 'savior'. And despite being the catalyst that led The Browns to the playoffs - and a 17 point lead that the defense blew - Politics reared their ugly head and prevented Holcomb from being the man there because the front office idiots actually believe Couch was going to develop.

Also did you not watch Losman's transformation last year? He went from Tim Couchesque status himself - to what looks to be the best of the 2004 draft class.

~The Answer

[Mr. Pink]

He didn't teach Manning anything - And The Answer has never claimed that.

But you are right - he did tear about a lockeroom and fanbase apart in Cleveland becasue he was 10x better than the monumental #1 overall bust they drafted to be their 'savior'. And despite being the catalyst that led The Browns to the playoffs - and a 17 point lead that the defense blew - Politics reared their ugly head and prevented Holcomb from being the man there because the front office idiots actually believe Couch was going to develop.

Also did you not watch Losman's transformation last year? He went from Tim Couchesque status himself - to what looks to be the best of the 2004 draft class.

~The Answer


KH lead the Browns to the playoffs in 2002? You sure about that one? Positive? I got plenty of references to show you're not only wrong but absolutely clueless.

Tim Couch started 14 of the 16 games in 2002. His stats are as follows.
2002 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2002.htm) cle (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle2002.htm) | 14 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/CoucTi00.htm#2002) | 273 443 61.6 2842 6.4 18 18
KH stats....2 starts.
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD>106</TD><TD>64</TD><TD>60.4</TD><TD>790</TD><TD>7.45</TD><TD>44</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>4
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Yes, he was TONS better. Oh yeah..With Couch starting the Browns went 8-6. KH 1-1 in the regular season...0-1 in the playoffs.

The only reason KH played the playoff game vs the Steelers is because Couch broke his leg vs the Falcons in week 17. So explain to me "answer" how did KH lead the Browns to the playoffs exactly when he only started 2 games?

[patmoran2006]

Damn "Answer"

Funtimes just said...
http://www.geocities.com/icebergslim3578/Slap.JPG

[patmoran2006]

I like that pic.. I think I'm gonna have a new sig.

[The Answer]

KH lead the Browns to the playoffs in 2002? You sure about that one? Positive? I got plenty of references to show you're not only wrong but absolutely clueless.

Tim Couch started 14 of the 16 games in 2002. His stats are as follows.
2002 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2002.htm) cle (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle2002.htm) | 14 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/CoucTi00.htm#2002) | 273 443 61.6 2842 6.4 18 18
KH stats....2 starts.
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD>106</TD><TD>64</TD><TD>60.4</TD><TD>790</TD><TD>7.45</TD><TD>44</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>4

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Yes, he was TONS better. Oh yeah..With Couch starting the Browns went 8-6. KH 1-1 in the regular season...0-1 in the playoffs.

The only reason KH played the playoff game vs the Steelers is because Couch broke his leg vs the Falcons in week 17. So explain to me "answer" how did KH lead the Browns to the playoffs exactly when he only started 2 games?

Who played in the critical season finale to get the win that secured a wild card birth?

The Answer is well aware of the fact that Holcomb didn't start the entire 16 game season in 2002 - if he did though The Browns likely would have been an 12 win team - Couch sucked as was benched multiple times that season.

~The Answer

[Mr. Pink]

Who played in the critical season finale to get the win that secured a wild card birth?

The Answer is well aware of the fact that Holcomb didn't start the entire 16 game season in 2002 - if he did though The Browns likely would have been an 12 win team - Couch sucked as was benched multiple times that season.

~The Answer


Who was Couch benched for "multiple" times...seeing KH only saw action in 4 regular season games. The two he started for the beginning of the year when Couch was injured. And then week 17 he came when Couch broke his leg. So that means KH got to see action in ONE other game. That game being against the Baltimore Ravens. By the way, Holcomb lead the Browns to a loss in that game.

By the way the game that secured the Browns a wildcard birth had NOTHING to do with Cleveland. It was the Jets winning that secured the birth. But I'll digress to the week 17 matchup where KH "lead the team to the playoffs" by throwing 2 INTs and making a goal line stand on the Falcons who had 4th and 1 from the 1 near the end of the game.

By the way what did KH lead the Browns to in 2003? Oh yeah 2 and 8!

You really need to learn when to shut up when you have no idea what you're talking about. If the question was "what does 2 plus 2 =?" I'm sure you'd still get the "answer" wrong.

[patmoran2006]

hahahaha

[raphael120]

FTY, dude, youre agruing with a guy with his head comfortably up his ass, all he hears is muffled words

[Ed]

How did a defensive leadership thread turn into a Kelly Holcomb/Tim Couch thread?

What, are we going through such bad qb controversy withdrawals we have to start arguing about other teams previous qb issues?

I'm starting to have flashbacks of much uglier times at billszone.com.

Seriously though, considering MLB and SS seem to be two of the more critical and central pieces of the Cover 2, I'd like to see Crowell and Whitner step up into more leadership type roles. I like the way they play, their intensity and character.

[YardRat]

With Spikes and Fletcher gone, there really doesn't appear to be any 'rah-rah'-type leaders left.

I hope Schobel, Crowell, and either Whitner or Simpson step up into leadership roles, and whether it's by example or by hooting and hollering, I don't really care.

[HHURRICANE]

Crowell? Tripplett? ....... Hargrove :couch:

Hargrove is going to step up and be a force this year. Guaranteed.