Turner at OBD today

[Devin]

I didnt see this posted, if it is ill merge the threads:

http://www.buffalobills.com/

And:



BRIGGS INTEREST?: With Briggs current approach to his situation as the franchise player in Chicago which is adversarial to say the least there is some specualtion out there that with Washington's proposed trade offer dead in the water that there are other teams ready to swoop in and make a deal. Scout.com speculates that Jacksonville, Buffalo or the Giants "could" and I stress the word 'could' because I'd be a bit surprised if the Bills make an offer for him.

While I don't doubt that both Dick Jauron and Perry Fewell have a high regard for him as a player, my doubts are rooted more in the economics of such a deal.

Sure the Bills need LB help but they just moved an expensive LB (Spikes) in a trade that gained them some more financial maneuverability. I can't see them using all the financial flexibility they created and then some to sign a guy like Briggs which would only put them in a more difficult situation in which to address their other needs defensively as well as RB.
---

[billsburgh]

Today Posted By: Chris Brown | Time: 11:56 AM ET | Link

TURNER VISIT: Well Turner is in the building and making his way around One Bills Drive to speak to the coaching staff. I do like Turner as a player and he'd obviously be the odds on favorite to be the team's starter at RB if Buffalo can swing a deal for him. I followed his college career closely having served on the U.B. Bulls radio broadcast team for three years and the Bulls play in the same conference as Northern Illinois (Mid-American). I just like his versatility in terms of being able to turn the corner or hit the hole between the tackles. The only unknown about him is his pass catching ability. I'm not saying he can't, it's just that he's never been asked to do it on a consistent basis. I don't know if that's because he's not great at it, or because he was so successful as a rusher that it wasn't necessary (at least in college). In the pros he was mostly getting extensive time when the game's result was no longer in doubt, and the Chargers in most cases were interested in killing clock which means 'Run the ball Turner.' Cross your fingers on this one, it would be a huge 'get' to land this guy. ---
http://buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?blogger_id=1

[OpIv37]

I completely disagree with that logic- tying up the money in Briggs would be paying for a player who is performing vs for one who wasn't performing in Spikes. And if they don't get Turner, who else is there to spend the money on?

Or, to simplify- I fail to see the logic in NOT using "financial flexibility" to fill a glaring hole.

I won't be upset if we get Turner, but I'd rather see us get Briggs because there are more options for RB than for LB at this point.

If we get neither and don't get Patrick Willis in the draft, it's gonna be a LOONNNG season.

[Romes]

It has finally come to pass that Turner is at OBD. chuck san diego a 2nd and 3rd for this guy marv. :up: git er done

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=4697

[Dr. Lecter]

A 2nd yes. I would be weary of a 3rd as well.

Maybe a 3rd next year. Even Baltimore's 3rd would be a littel too much of a throw in.

[billsburgh]

hey Pat, get your sign and get over to the Ralph. NOW.

[Night Train]

I could easily list 5-7 Cover 2 LB's we could get in Rounds 2-3 who have the talent to play right away and play well. Ellison type ability.

I cannot see numbers at ALL for RB's. Limited selection.

So make the run at Turner.

[Night Train]

A 2nd yes. I would be weary of a 3rd as well.

Maybe a 3rd next year. Even Baltimore's 3rd would be a littel too much of a throw in.

That seemed to be the general thought in NFL circles, from what I read. Not some gossip.. A 2nd now and a 3rd next year (we have an extra 3rd, don't forget).

[patmoran2006]

There is no way we would pay that much money for Briggs.. So we can all FORGET about that. that is 100% pure Buffalo BIlls economics.. We'd have to significantly go over the "cash to cap" to get him.

by regular cap standards we could easily afford both of them via trades, but it aint gonna happen.

Our best (and only) hope is Turner.

[gr8slayer]

Now I'm really confused. I thought he wasn't going to come untill next week?

[venis2k1]

keep our picks, he isnt worth the asking price.

[billsburgh]

That seemed to be the general thought in NFL circles, from what I read. Not some gossip.. A 2nd now and a 3rd next year (we have an extra 3rd, don't forget).
I wouldnt be upset by a deal like that. seems to be fair. as long as it doesnt involve our 1st round pick.

[Romes]

A 2nd yes. I would be weary of a 3rd as well.

Maybe a 3rd next year. Even Baltimore's 3rd would be a littel too much of a throw in.

Normally I'd say only a second but because we have two 3rds I'd willing to part with one.

[OpIv37]

I could easily list 5-7 Cover 2 LB's we could get in Rounds 2-3 who have the talent to play right away and play well. Ellison type ability.

I cannot see numbers at ALL for RB's. Limited selection.

So make the run at Turner.

Here's the thing- we had Ellison-type ability in Ellison last year and it got us 7-9. So if we're going to improve we need to do BETTER, not do the same thing.

[BAM]

Sounds good. Sign 'em up!

[Ultra Chimp 1]

Now I'm really confused. I thought he wasn't going to come untill next week?

Which just tells you something is brewing at OBD.

[ddaryl]

keep our picks, he isnt worth the asking price.

I disagree. I think Turner represents the better RB option then the draft, and we can keep our 1st rd pick pick up a need, or trade down and parlay it inot more day 1 picks

[Bulldog]

Here's the thing- we had Ellison-type ability in Ellison last year and it got us 7-9. So if we're going to improve we need to do BETTER, not do the same thing.

The guy was a rookie last year and I would hope that he, as well as the other roookies, would improve in their second year.

[ddaryl]

Which just tells you something is brewing at OBD.


Tells me the Bills wanted to head off a media circus and to really sit down with Turner and minimize the interference.

[OpIv37]

The guy was a rookie last year and I would hope that he, as well as the other roookies, would improve in their second year.

That's true, but what Nighthawk said was getting a guy with "Ellison-like ability" in this year's draft, meaning we'd still have someone playing LB at Ellison's level last year. We already know that doesn't cut it.

[billsburgh]

The guy was a rookie last year and I would hope that he, as well as the other roookies, would improve in their second year.
that's usually the case. the biggest jump generally occurs between the 1st and
2nd years.

[raphael120]

ill bet all my zonebucks that we dont sign turner...when asked whether he would prefer tennessee or buffalo, his agent said he likes tennessee...i dont know, i just dont see him in a buffalo uniform... he's lookin for big money and a big market, neither of which he will probably get in buffalo

[OpIv37]

ill bet all my zonebucks that we dont sign turner...when asked whether he would prefer tennessee or buffalo, his agent said he likes tennessee...i dont know, i just dont see him in a buffalo uniform... he's lookin for big money and a big market, neither of which he will probably get in buffalo

well tennessee isn't exactly a big market either.

[justasportsfan]

I completely disagree with that logic- tying up the money in Briggs would be paying for a player who is performing vs for one who wasn't performing in Spikes. And if they don't get Turner, who else is there to spend the money on?

Or, to simplify- I fail to see the logic in NOT using "financial flexibility" to fill a glaring hole.

.
Maybe we should ask Clump if signing Briggs will be a big problem when we need to sign JP and Evans to an extension in a couple of years or even next year. :idunno:

[mchurchfie]

I would rather have someone with Willis ability.:naughty: Willis!!

[patmoran2006]

Maybe we should ask Clump if signing Briggs will be a big problem when we need to sign JP and Evans to an extension in a couple of years or even next year. :idunno:
and the cap DOESNT go up next year and the next????????

If we dont sign Evans, Briggs or anyone else from this point forth, its because Wilson wont spend the money.

[Bulldog]

That's true, but what Nighthawk said was getting a guy with "Ellison-like ability" in this year's draft, meaning we'd still have someone playing LB at Ellison's level last year. We already know that doesn't cut it.

I hear that. My biggest concern is still the D-Line. If they can't be more effective against the run, Buffalo is screwed.

[raphael120]

well tennessee isn't exactly a big market either.


yeah, so that says somethin about his preference for tennessee...

he's probably thinkin vince young....jp...vince...jp...hmmm yeah, vince.

just lookin at it from his standpoint, i know as bills fans we think this is the best organization in the world (wearin the rose colored glasses) but i consider the bills as closer to the playoffs than the titans...

[JJamezz]

ill bet all my zonebucks that we dont sign turner...when asked whether he would prefer tennessee or buffalo, his agent said he likes tennessee...i dont know, i just dont see him in a buffalo uniform... he's lookin for big money and a big market, neither of which he will probably get in buffalo

I'm guessing he said that after his visit to Tennessee, and obviously it was prior to him visiting Buffalo, since he's there today for the first time... Probably had something to do with it.

And as was mentioned, Nashville ain't exactly big city life either..

[OpIv37]

Maybe we should ask Clump if signing Briggs will be a big problem when we need to sign JP and Evans to an extension in a couple of years or even next year. :idunno:

good points- if we don't end up signing Briggs or Turner, Marv better use some of the money we have this year to try to lock up JP and/or Evans long term.

[ddaryl]

yeah, so that says somethin about his preference for tennessee...

he's probably thinkin vince young....jp...vince...jp...hmmm yeah, vince.

just lookin at it from his standpoint, i know as bills fans we think this is the best organization in the world (wearin the rose colored glasses) but i consider the bills as closer to the playoffs than the titans...


I think most everyone reads to damn much into these comments. Where was the question asked ? Was it asked in front of the Tenn media ?


I think Turner will be a Bill, we have the trade advantage over Tenn, we have less holes to fill, and we have the coin for a fair but gratuitous contract.

[raphael120]

I'm guessing he said that after his visit to Tennessee, and obviously it was prior to him visiting Buffalo, since he's there today for the first time... Probably had something to do with it.

And as was mentioned, Nashville ain't exactly big city life either..

turner must be a fan of buckin broncos and ropin some goats!...and all those other southern hick stereotypes

[OpIv37]

yeah, so that says somethin about his preference for tennessee...

he's probably thinkin vince young....jp...vince...jp...hmmm yeah, vince.

just lookin at it from his standpoint, i know as bills fans we think this is the best organization in the world (wearin the rose colored glasses) but i consider the bills as closer to the playoffs than the titans...

I agree that the Bills are closer than the Titans- Tennessee has some talent but they overachieved last year and they seem to add talent without any real overall plan, whereas the Bills seem to be going somewhere with what they're trying to do.

[raphael120]

I think most everyone reads to damn much into these comments. Where was the question asked ? Was it asked in front of the Tenn media ?


I think Turner will be a Bill, we have the trade advantage over Tenn, we have less holes to fill, and we have the coin for a fair but gratuitous contract.

it was for the tennessee sun...and its hypocritical to say we read into them too much, everyone does, cuz we are starved for good news, as bills fans

[raphael120]

I agree that the Bills are closer than the Titans- Tennessee has some talent but they overachieved last year and they seem to add talent without any real overall plan, whereas the Bills seem to be going somewhere with what they're trying to do.

yeah, vince young still has to pan out, they dont have a lee evans like we do, it's debatable who has the better oline now...

but it's nice to know that we are more on the upside this offseason then we were last season. more attractive to potential signings, and jauron seems to be talkin the right talk to land people.

[justasportsfan]

If we dont sign Evans, Briggs or anyone else from this point forth, its because Wilson wont spend the money.

that myth is getting old Pat . You've already been proven wrong. Why make your posts dumber that they already are. :shakeno:

[JJamezz]

turner must be a fan of buckin broncos and ropin some goats!...and all those other southern hick stereotypes


:rofl:

I agree w/ what you said about Vince Young, that probably has a lot of appeal to him. Yes Young is overhyped, but I think he's the real deal, and may become the QB everyone thought Vick would be. That said, JP is the real deal too, but he's a lot farther under the national radar..

[DraftBoy]

it was for the tennessee sun...and its hypocritical to say we read into them too much, everyone does, cuz we are starved for good news, as bills fans


Ok your a FA visiting Atlanta and then Tennessee, you get asked by an Atlanta newspaper so who do you prefer us or them? Who do you think he's going to say? Come on now, he's not going to purposely hurt his value.

[ddaryl]

it was for the tennessee sun...and its hypocritical to say we read into them too much, everyone does, cuz we are starved for good news, as bills fans

I don't read inot these comments, there just media puppet lines, tell'em what they want to hear

[gr8slayer]

:rofl:

I agree w/ what you said about Vince Young, that probably has a lot of appeal to him. Yes Young is overhyped, but I think he's the real deal, and may become the QB everyone thought Vick would be. That said, JP is the real deal too, but he's a lot farther under the national radar..
If he played somewhere else you think that would be the case?

[raphael120]

Ok your a FA visiting Atlanta and then Tennessee, you get asked by an Atlanta newspaper so who do you prefer us or them? Who do you think he's going to say? Come on now, he's not going to purposely hurt his value.

if im a FA visiting atlanta, id tell the atlanta media that i wouldnt want to steal away the spotlight from vick, apparently they dont need a RB.

[justasportsfan]

good points- if we don't end up signing Briggs or Turner, Marv better use some of the money we have this year to try to lock up JP and/or Evans long term.
just like you though, I hope and pray we draft Willis so he won't cost as much the next couple of years when we need to sign JP/Evans to extensions and yet we won't be missing Briggs and his cap then.

[raphael120]

If he played somewhere else you think that would be the case?

i think youd get the tony romo man love fest if he was in a big market and the "ooo i love jp's bed head, he so dreamy" from the ladies.

[DraftBoy]

Marv get it done!

[JJamezz]

If he played somewhere else you think that would be the case?

It depends - sure Buffalo is the equivalent of NFL Siberia... But I think what hurt JP's national perception the most was all the garbage about his attitude, cockiness, etc. - whenever he HAS been on the national radar, its been all negative, and I thats probably still the prevailing opinion of him for most people. Hell, even a lot of the media still think that way, which is ridiculous, though that's finally changing.

[DraftBoy]

if im a FA visiting atlanta, id tell the atlanta media that i wouldnt want to steal away the spotlight from vick, apparently they dont need a RB.


And thank you for making my point for me

[Devin]

It depends - sure Buffalo is the equivalent of NFL Siberia... But I think what hurt JP's national perception the most was all the garbage about his attitude, cockiness, etc. - whenever he HAS been on the national radar, its been all negative, and I thats probably still the prevailing opinion of him for most people. Hell, even a lot of the media still think that way, which is ridiculous, though that's finally changing.

Personally I think this team needs a little attitude.

[DraftBoy]

It depends - sure Buffalo is the equivalent of NFL Siberia... But I think what hurt JP's national perception the most was all the garbage about his attitude, cockiness, etc. - whenever he HAS been on the national radar, its been all negative, and I thats probably still the prevailing opinion of him for most people. Hell, even a lot of the media still think that way, which is ridiculous, though that's finally changing.


It was not bc he was drafted by Buffalo that his attitude was an issue, it was a serious concern coming out of Tulane, and since then Id say has greatly been beat down, but this was not something drummed up by the national media bc "they are always out to get us" or whatever paranoia type theory we are on this week.

[DraftBoy]

Personally I think this team needs a little attitude.


I think this team need a Chad Johnson, TO type but Im going to get negged for that

[gr8slayer]

It depends - sure Buffalo is the equivalent of NFL Siberia... But I think what hurt JP's national perception the most was all the garbage about his attitude, cockiness, etc. - whenever he HAS been on the national radar, its been all negative, and I thats probably still the prevailing opinion of him for most people. Hell, even a lot of the media still think that way, which is ridiculous, though that's finally changing.
It's funny everyone talks about his attitude, anytime I have ever heard his interviews he sounds no worse than anyone else. I think every QB has to have some swagger to him.

And hey at least he isn't beating his girlfriend or doing drugs.

[JJamezz]

Personally I think this team needs a little attitude.

I agree man.

JP definitely has attitude - I think what he's been able to do is change it from a sort of stand-offish one that alienated him from his teammates, to one that brings them together.. I don't know how he did it, and I give a lot of credit to him and the new coaches, because its no small feat.

[JJamezz]

It was not bc he was drafted by Buffalo that his attitude was an issue, it was a serious concern coming out of Tulane, and since then Id say has greatly been beat down, but this was not something drummed up by the national media bc "they are always out to get us" or whatever paranoia type theory we are on this week.

If I implied that, I didn't mean to... I totally agree with you.

[raphael120]

chad johnsons a funny dude tho...its one thing to be like mcgahee and be cocky and arrogent and not back it up, and not be funny about it, but chad is hard to hate

[ddaryl]

It's funny everyone talks about his attitude, anytime I have ever heard his interviews he sounds no worse than anyone else. I think every QB has to have some swagger to him.

And hey at least he isn't beating his girlfriend or doing drugs.


I've yet to hear anything from JP that fits him to this "cocky" persona. He's pretty graceful with the media, he hasn't called anyone out personally, and he is willing ot take blame off of the teams shoulders. IMO his demeanor is that of a solid leader.

[Mr. Miyagi]

JP will get plenty of national attention if he architects a fourth quarter comback game to beat the Pats in New England. Everyone will jump all over that.

[raphael120]

I've yet to hear anything from JP that fits him to this "cocky" persona. He's pretty graceful with the media, he hasn't called anyone out personally, and he is willing ot take blame off of the teams shoulders. IMO his demeanor is that of a solid leader.

he came in a wide eyed cocky dude, but once the whole mularkey circus happened, it brought him crashing down to earth, and i think while it was a **** experience for him, you know what they say, the bad times can either bring out the best of you, or the worst of you...it brought out the best of him, and i think because of it, he's going to be a better QB than he would have without the crap that happened

[justasportsfan]

I agree man.

JP definitely has attitude - I think what he's been able to do is change it from a sort of stand-offish one that alienated him from his teammates, to one that brings them together.. I don't know how he did it, and I give a lot of credit to him and the new coaches, because its no small feat.
his attitude is what made him overcome the problems he went thru. If he didn't have any confidence in himself, he would've doubted himself and folded. I'm glad that what happened to him in 05 happened though. It did tone his cockiness down and humbled him enough to know that he still has a lot to learn and is doing so based on his work ethic.

[DraftBoy]

If I implied that, I didn't mean to... I totally agree with you.


No big deal, just get tired of the same old ESPN hates us, Fox hates us, national media hates us, lets feel bad for ourselves mantra over and over again.

[gr8slayer]

I've yet to hear anything from JP that fits him to this "cocky" persona. He's pretty graceful with the media, he hasn't called anyone out personally, and he is willing ot take blame off of the teams shoulders. IMO his demeanor is that of a solid leader.
I agree 100% :up:

[OpIv37]

We're really getting off topic here, but I think the problem with JP's attitude comes from the pressure he puts on himself. At Tulane, he had to do it all because they had no talent. So in the NFL, he tried to do it all himself and got pissed at himself when he couldn't. To his teammates, this comes off as "the world revolves around ME". Once he started getting mad at his teammates the way he gets mad at himself, but not scapegoating and still taking his share of the blame, I think that's when he started to gain their respect and that's where his cockiness becomes a Kelly-like asset instead of a liability.

[gr8slayer]

Michael Turner is in Buffalo visiting the Bills Thursday.
It's looking more and more that A.J. Smith is interested in dealing Turner for the right price. He would be a perfect fit in Buffalo's power running attack. That said, it seems unlikely Buffalo would send a first-round pick for Turner.

[billsburgh]

chad johnsons a funny dude tho...its one thing to be like mcgahee and be cocky and arrogent and not back it up, and not be funny about it, but chad is hard to hate
I always liked Chad Johnson up until the NFL Network started ramming him down our throats non stop. now I cant stand the guy.

[gr8slayer]

I always liked Chad Johnson up until the NFL Network started ramming him down our throats non stop. now I cant stand the guy.
I think he's hilarious.

[Mudflap1]

We're really getting off topic here, but I think the problem with JP's attitude comes from the pressure he puts on himself. At Tulane, he had to do it all because they had no talent. So in the NFL, he tried to do it all himself and got pissed at himself when he couldn't. To his teammates, this comes off as "the world revolves around ME". Once he started getting mad at his teammates the way he gets mad at himself, but not scapegoating and still taking his share of the blame, I think that's when he started to gain their respect and that's where his cockiness becomes a Kelly-like asset instead of a liability.

Couple that with the fact that Bledsoe (a veteran with a track record) was cut and the job was given gratuitously to J.P. in camp without him having to earn the job outright, and you've got it.

Jon

[HHURRICANE]

Chris Brown just reported!!!!

[DraftBoy]

You are hours behind

[HHURRICANE]

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=4697

Making their interest in the best available running back left on the free agent market official, the Buffalo Bills hosted San Diego restricted free agent running back Michael Turner Thursday at One Bills Drive.

[HHURRICANE]

I am?! Oooops.

[Devin]

wow lol. Uhhhh dude.......

[DraftBoy]

Merged!

[BILLSROCK1212]

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=4697

Making their interest in the best available running back left on the free agent market official, the Buffalo Bills hosted San Diego restricted free agent running back Michael Turner Thursday at One Bills Drive.check the time on that article

[HHURRICANE]

That's so funny. I went to lunch, came back, and this thread is half way down the page.

I guess you guys really are over the Turner stuff.

[Devin]

That's so funny. I went to lunch, came back, and this thread is half way down the page.

I guess you guys really are over the Turner stuff.

A thread about him every 6 nano seconds will do that to ya.

[Bill Brasky]

I think this team need a Chad Johnson, TO type but Im going to get negged for that
CHAD IS THE MAN!

I will get negged for saying that Randy Moss is the man, too. :couch:

[raphael120]

randy moss is the man when randy moss wants to be the man

[Bill Brasky]

randy moss is the man when randy moss wants to be the man

which is what makes him the man. aint nobody bossin randy round! not even meter maids. what a badass.

[RedEyE]

IMO, Buffalo has the upper hand here. They should have a good idea what Tenn. offered Turner in the way of a contract, and what Tenn. offered the Chargers in the way of compensation.

Buffalo just needs to determine if the guy is worth matching the contract numbers the Titans offered, and whatever Tenn. proposed for compensation to San Diego, they just "one-up" them. Blammo, done.

If they don't want to spend the draft picks or the money, get the kid out of Buffalo and go on to plan 2.

[HHURRICANE]

randy moss is the man when randy moss wants to be the man

Randy Moss was the man. Past tense.

[RedEyE]

Honestly, the Chris Brown point about Turner not been asked to participate in a passing game yet is a bit of a disappointment. I don't want another one dimensional guy for that suspected asking price. He had better be able to catch the ball before Buffalo gives up the farm for him.

[Michael82]

Anyone else excited? We finally got him here. Now it's just a matter of working with his agent on a dead and then offering the Chargers a pick or two. :jig:

[gr8slayer]

Anyone else excited? We finally got him here. Now it's just a matter of working with his agent on a dead and then offering the Chargers a pick or two. :jig:
How can't you be excited?

[jamze132]

I'm guessing he said that after his visit to Tennessee, and obviously it was prior to him visiting Buffalo, since he's there today for the first time... Probably had something to do with it.

And as was mentioned, Nashville ain't exactly big city life either..
While I feal your sentiment, I spent 4 years in nearby Ft. Campbell and I can tell you there are a couple of clubs that are pretty hot in Nashville. Graham Central Station, Johnny Jackson's Soul Satisfaction and the Have a Nice Day Cafe jump out at me.

[gr8slayer]

While I feal your sentiment, I spent 4 years in nearby Ft. Campbell and I can tell you there are a couple of clubs that are pretty hot in Nashville. Graham Central Station, Johnny Jackson's Soul Satisfaction and the Have a Nice Day Cafe jump out at me.
Every town has a Graham Central Station.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Personally I think this team needs a little attitude.

This team needs to start winning games. They started playing with a little attitude last year. No smack required. Just friggin' win.

[billsburgh]

did he address the media at all after his visit like free agents in the past have done? did anyone hear anything?

[Tatonka]

Here's the thing- we had Ellison-type ability in Ellison last year and it got us 7-9. So if we're going to improve we need to do BETTER, not do the same thing.

you act like ellison and his ability had anything to do with us being 7-9

[Mr. Pink]

Any news about his visit today?

[Nighthawk]

It has finally come to pass that Turner is at OBD. chuck san diego a 2nd and 3rd for this guy marv. :up: git er done

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=4697

Umm, no way I give them a 2nd & 3rd this year for him. Maybe a 2nd, but nothing more.

[justasportsfan]

you act like ellison and his ability had anything to do with us being 7-9


He played better than Spikes but we had to put Spikes in because he was the penciled starter.

[YardRat]

Did anybody post this yet?

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=2641&line=91512&spln=1

Bills owner Ralph Wilson dispatched his private plane to get Michael Turner to Buffalo after Turner was having flight troubles in Tennessee.

[Nighthawk]

Did anybody post this yet?

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=2641&line=91512&spln=1

Bills owner Ralph Wilson dispatched his private plane to get Michael Turner to Buffalo after Turner was having flight troubles in Tennessee.

Hadn't seen that. Wow, Ralph never does that unless he really wants somebody. Maybe the Bills do get this thing done. However, I don't want us giving up a our 1st rounder. Even if we swapped picks to move down in the first, I'd want SD to add a pick in the 3rd to the deal. Turner is not worth a 1st rounder.

[RedEyE]

So what company sponsored the cost of the jet fuel? :D

[Michael82]

Did anybody post this yet?

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=2641&line=91512&spln=1

Bills owner Ralph Wilson dispatched his private plane to get Michael Turner to Buffalo after Turner was having flight troubles in Tennessee.
Wow! That proves that the Bills are serious! He hardly ever uses his private plane. I think a deal will get done sometime next week after Easter.

[acehole]

Wow! That proves that the Bills are serious! He hardly ever uses his private plane. I think a deal will get done sometime next week after Easter.


F R I D A Y!

[OpIv37]

you act like ellison and his ability had anything to do with us being 7-9

well, our DL is mildly upgraded with Walker but still sucks against the run. Our CB situation is worse. Our S situation is the same. Last year, we had an Ellison-in-2006-quality LB in Ellison on the field. And it wasn't good enough. Since little else has changed, how exactly is having another Ellison-in-2006-quality LB on the field going to improve the D?

It's doing the same thing and expecting different results, which is simply illogical.

[Michael82]

F R I D A Y!
:pray:

[Mitchy moo]

It's doing the same thing and expecting different results, which is simply illogical.

It's actually insanity.

[gr8slayer]

Bills owner Ralph Wilson dispatched his private plane to get Michael Turner to Buffalo after Turner was having flight troubles in Tennessee.
It sounds like the Bills are really in this despite being in good position to draft a tailback somewhere on the first day. However, ESPN's John Clayton reports San Diego won't take less than a first-rounder for Turner.

[Michael82]

They'll take less. They know they won't get a 2nd rounder and if they keep pushing for it, they will chase both the Bills and Titans away.

[Dr. Lecter]

well, our DL is mildly upgraded with Walker but still sucks against the run. Our CB situation is worse. Our S situation is the same. Last year, we had an Ellison-in-2006-quality LB in Ellison on the field. And it wasn't good enough. Since little else has changed, how exactly is having another Ellison-in-2006-quality LB on the field going to improve the D?

It's doing the same thing and expecting different results, which is simply illogical.

Sometimes young players like Ellison improve going into their second year.

[Michael82]

Sometimes young players like Ellison improve going into their second year.
plus he's adding weight. :up:

[OpIv37]

Sometimes young players like Ellison improve going into their second year.

ok, let's try this one more time.

Tatonka said that there were Ellison-quality LB's available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. If we draft someone other than Willis with the 12th pick, or trade it for Turner, that means that the Ellison-quality LB we get in this draft will have to be on the field.

We had an Ellison-quality LB on the field last year in Ellison and it didn't work. Hence, we have little reason to believe that Ellison, Crowell and an Ellison-quality LB from this year's draft will be any better than last year.

Granted, it wasn't the only problem this team has, but the DL hasn't changed, the safeties haven't changed, and we lost Clements. So, where exactly is the improvement supposed to come from?

[alohabillsfan]

ok, let's try this one more time.

Tatonka said that there were Ellison-quality LB's available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. If we draft someone other than Willis with the 12th pick, or trade it for Turner, that means that the Ellison-quality LB we get in this draft will have to be on the field.

We had an Ellison-quality LB on the field last year in Ellison and it didn't work. Hence, we have little reason to believe that Ellison, Crowell and an Ellison-quality LB from this year's draft will be any better than last year.

Granted, it wasn't the only problem this team has, but the DL hasn't changed, the safeties haven't changed, and we lost Clements. So, where exactly is the improvement supposed to come from?


OK I will explain (IMO) the Bills the process lets see if we agree...

1) Offensive line was lets say "offesive"

2) The offense, in general, lacked consistant running ability.

3) The offense rarely marched 80 yards down the field.

4) The defense was on the field to long!

5) The defense was on the field and our opponent had the lead.

6) Our opponent had the lead and did not have to pass the ball!


OK so if those statements above are correct how do we fix that and how does it help the "TEAM" not just a single dimension of it!

1) Dockery, Walker and Whittle along with Butler, Pennington and Merz!

2) Dockery, Walker, Whittle, Butler, subtract Mcgahee add NFL Caliber RB! (MT)

3) See 1 and 2

4) See 3

5) see 1,2,3, and 4

6) The Tampa 2 needs and effective scoring offense to work, yes you can run at them, look what Indy did to Chicago in the SB! The trick is to get points on the board and force the opponent into passing to catch up which is the teeth of the TC2.

So while yes we don't have the magical run clogging set of DT's we did upgrade this defense by upgrading our offesive line and hopefully soon the RB position!

[Tatonka]

ellison did not hurt this team or cost us games in any way.. he made the plays he should have.

you keep saying that "ellison didnt work last year"... give me one example.

[justasportsfan]

Did anybody post this yet?

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=2641&line=91512&spln=1

Bills owner Ralph Wilson dispatched his private plane to get Michael Turner to Buffalo after Turner was having flight troubles in Tennessee.

[justasportsfan]

, but the DL hasn't changed, the safeties haven't changed, and we lost Clements. So, where exactly is the improvement supposed to come from?


sometimes 2nd year players like McCargo, Kyle,Simpson and Whitner improve in their 2nd year.

[Ickybaluky]

Getting back on topic...

The North County Times (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/04/06/sports/professional/chargers/22_01_394_5_07.txt) has A.J. Smith confirming the Bills have had trade talks with SD about Turner:


The Buffalo Bills revealed that restricted free-agent running back Michael Turner visited the team on Thursday, prompting Chargers general manager A.J. Smith to confirm that the two teams have held trade discussions.

Turner is tendered at a level that would require any team signing him to a free-agent offer sheet to give up first- and third-round draft picks if the Chargers don't match it. The more likely scenario is that a trade will be worked out in which a team acquires Turner at a lower cost.

"We have had dialogue over the possibility of Michael Turner joining the Buffalo Bills and we have exchanged thoughts on compensation," Smith said. "Right now, like I've said before, it's a one and a three, but we will continue to be flexible. We're very open to any package."

The Chargers and Tennessee Titans have also conducted trade talks regarding Turner.

[DraftBoy]

Getting back on topic...

The North County Times (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/04/06/sports/professional/chargers/22_01_394_5_07.txt) has A.J. Smith confirming the Bills have had trade talks with SD about Turner:


Sounds like Buffalo is either even with Tennessee or in the lead now. Ralph sent his private jet to go get Turner and Smith was much more open about the dialogue with the Bills. Id hope he'd prefer Turner go here, should be an interesting weekend to say the least. Btw is Turner still in Buffalo?

[justasportsfan]

NOw he's flexible. He has to be or he won't get anything for Turner next year.

[OpIv37]

ellison did not hurt this team or cost us games in any way.. he made the plays he should have.

you keep saying that "ellison didnt work last year"... give me one example.

I can't even believe I have to explain this.

7-9. 27th against the run.

Was Ellison the entire problem? Of course not. But the D needs improvement. I've already stated how the rest of the D wasn't improved. And it's clear that we need improvement. So, once again, please tell me how having another player the same caliber of the player we had last year is going to make us BETTER, which is what we need.

Drafting an "Ellison-quality LB" in the 2nd or 3rd round is going to make us pretty much identical to last year, and we already know that wasn't good enough.

[SquishDaFish]

Ellison made his plays though. I cant recall many plays where he was picked on or ran through. He played solid. Our problem on run D was the DL. Which we have to think is improved with the additions and weight gain/loss. Lets see what happens this year I bet the run D will be better.

[Dr. Lecter]

I can't even believe I have to explain this.

7-9. 27th against the run.

Was Ellison the entire problem? Of course not. But the D needs improvement. I've already stated how the rest of the D wasn't improved. And it's clear that we need improvement. So, once again, please tell me how having another player the same caliber of the player we had last year is going to make us BETTER, which is what we need.

Drafting an "Ellison-quality LB" in the 2nd or 3rd round is going to make us pretty much identical to last year, and we already know that wasn't good enough.

If you are *****ing about the Bills defense from last year, why are you also *****ing about them letting guys like Spikes, Fletcher and Nate leave?

You complain about them not making changes and then complain about the changes they do make.

Also, look at the points allowed, which was not as bad.

Also consider the improved offense, which should keep the defense off the field.

[gr8slayer]

If you are *****ing about the Bills defense from last year, why are you also *****ing about them letting guys like Spikes, Fletcher and Nate leave?

You complain about them not making changes and then complain about the changes they do make.

Also, look at the points allowed, which was not as bad.

Also consider the improved offense, which should keep the defense off the field.
:bf1:

[OpIv37]

If you are *****ing about the Bills defense from last year, why are you also *****ing about them letting guys like Spikes, Fletcher and Nate leave?

You complain about them not making changes and then complain about the changes they do make.

Also, look at the points allowed, which was not as bad.

Also consider the improved offense, which should keep the defense off the field.

um, change isn't necessarily good by definition. Did we learn nothing from the Pat Williams fiasco? If you let starters go, YOU NEED TO REPLACE THEM to improve. You don't improve by playing the guys who were ON THE BENCH behind the guys who weren't good enough last year. Even if you make the argument that Ellison replaces one of the LB's, we're still down an LB and a CB.

Oh, and if Ellison replaces Spikes or Fletcher and we then replace Ellison with an Ellison-quality player, how exactly is that improvement?

You're confusing the definitions of "change" and "improvement".

And if you're considering points allowed, also consider time of possession, where we were dominated last year. If opponents can score 17 points and beat us by controlling the ball, believe me- they'll take it.

[mysticsoto]

and the cap DOESNT go up next year and the next????????

If we dont sign Evans, Briggs or anyone else from this point forth, its because Wilson wont spend the money.

I thought this was interesting to point out given that you continually say that Wilson' doesn't spend money:

Bills owner Ralph Wilson dispatched his private plane to get Michael Turner to Buffalo after Turner was having flight troubles in Tennessee.

We could also mention Dockery and Walker. I think in this case Justa is right. This myth needs to be put to sleep...

[Dr. Lecter]

Time of possession is also a problem caused by the offense. The lack of a running game was deadly for the defense last year.

McCargo and Williams have also gained weight and should be better this year. That will help Crowell or whomeever is in the middle. Other young players like Simpson and Whitner should only improve.

You keep harping on the lack of changes and lack of improvement, while ignoring the fact that there were often 3-5 rookies playing on this defense last year.

Do you expect no improvement form them?

[SquishDaFish]

Why are you down on Ellison. HE was a GREAT find in later rounds of the draft. He played very well. Id be happy if we replace him with someone like him who doesnt make the bad play. And is consistent. Of couse we all want probowlers at every position but we cant. Plain and simple.

[Dr. Lecter]

I thought this was interesting to point out given that you continually say that Wilson' doesn't spend money:

Bills owner Ralph Wilson dispatched his private plane to get Michael Turner to Buffalo after Turner was having flight troubles in Tennessee.

We could also mention Dockery and Walker. I think in this case Justa is right. This myth needs to be put to sleep...

It won't be.

It has been disproven countless times.

Pat is like a Bush supporter on this; facts are unimportant to him.

[OpIv37]

Time of possession is also a problem caused by the offense. The lack of a running game was deadly for the defense last year.

McCargo and Williams have also gained weight and should be better this year. That will help Crowell or whomeever is in the middle. Other young players like Simpson and Whitner should only improve.

You keep harping on the lack of changes and lack of improvement, while ignoring the fact that there were often 3-5 rookies playing on this defense last year.

Do you expect no improvement form them?

do you expect enough improvement from them to go from 27th against the run to decent? We added Darwin Walker and one year of experience- that's it. You're expecting too much.

[gr8slayer]

do you expect enough improvement from them to go from 27th against the run to decent? We added Darwin Walker and one year of experience- that's it. You're expecting too much.
I expect improvement. :idunno:

[OpIv37]

Why are you down on Ellison. HE was a GREAT find in later rounds of the draft. He played very well. Id be happy if we replace him with someone like him who doesnt make the bad play. And is consistent. Of couse we all want probowlers at every position but we cant. Plain and simple.

I'm not down on Ellison- he's solid. But we need a playmaker to replace Spikes and so far he hasn't proven to be a playmaker.

Here's the problem- our D wasn't good enough last year, yet, according to this board, no one is responsible for it except the guys who aren't on the team anymore. And that just doesn't make sense.

[Dr. Lecter]

do you expect enough improvement from them to go from 27th against the run to decent? We added Darwin Walker and one year of experience- that's it. You're expecting too much.

I expect improvment from Williams, McCargo, Whitner, Simpson and Ellison.

Or are you of the mindset players do NOT improve from their rookie year?

There were 3-5 rookies playing last on defense. Do you think that was not a factor in their problems?

[gr8slayer]

I expect improvment from Williams, McCargo, Whitner, Simpson and Ellison.

Or are you of the mindset players do NOT improve from their rookie year?

There were 3-5 rookies playing last on defense. Do you think that was not a factor in their problems?
Whitner better improve this year. I want a freaking ball hawk at number eight.

[OpIv37]

I expect improvment from Williams, McCargo, Whitner, Simpson and Ellison.

Or are you of the mindset players do NOT improve from their rookie year?

There were 3-5 rookies playing last on defense. Do you think that was not a factor in their problems?

sure- it was part of the problem. But this D had a LOT of problems and you're counting on one year of experience to fix them all. That's just naive.

[Dr. Lecter]

The most improvement for a player comes from year 1 to year 2.

With 5 players showing signs of improvement, the other players getting experience in the new scheme and the offense actually being able to keep the defense off the field it is not all doom and gloom.

[gr8slayer]

The most improvement for a player comes from year 1 to year 2.

With 5 players showing signs of improvement, the other players getting experience in the new scheme and the offense actually being able to keep the defense off the field it is not all doom and gloom.
Might be true more times than not but a lot of players also hit their "second year slump" and never recover.

[OpIv37]

The most improvement for a player comes from year 1 to year 2.

With 5 players showing signs of improvement, the other players getting experience in the new scheme and the offense actually being able to keep the defense off the field it is not all doom and gloom.

assuming the offense SEES the field- first we have to stop the run.

[gr8slayer]

sure- it was part of the problem. But this D had a LOT of problems and you're counting on one year of experience to fix them all. That's just naive.
Op, I think the point is, we can't get much worse so we can only get better.

[mysticsoto]

assuming the offense SEES the field- first we have to stop the run.

Or generate turnovers which is what this style of defense is catered to do!!!

[gr8slayer]

Or generate turnovers which is what this style of defense is catered to do!!!
Or control the clock by actually running the ball so the Defense doesn't even have to see the field.

[sb_bound]

Might be true more times than not but a lot of players also hit their "second year slump" and never recover.

I think that that only pertains to WRs in the NFL. Most other players seem to get better going into their second year.

[Ickybaluky]

The most improvement for a player comes from year 1 to year 2.

I disagree with that assumption, along with the assumption that players are always going to get better.

Every player is different, and teams project based on how they feel they will limprove. However, it isn't automatic they will get better. Some guys start out showing promise, but never get better. Some start slowly, then take off after a few years. It really is case-by-case, and it is unrealistic to think that all the rookies are going to continue to get better incrementally.

[gr8slayer]

I disagree with that assumption, along with the assumption that players are always going to get better.

Every player is different, and teams project based on how they feel they will limprove. However, it isn't automatic they will get better. Some guys start out showing promise, but never get better. Some start slowly, then take off after a few years. It really is case-by-case, and it is unrealistic to think that all the rookies are going to continue to get better incrementally.
Shut up! You're ruining the moment.

[The last buffalo fan]

ok, now back to the topic.

Why is Spikes injured, better than Ellison on his second year?

[BillsFanInNM]

The way I'm looking at the linebacker situation is that...

healthy Crowell + Ellison with 1 yr experience + rookie to be named will be more athletic and possibly have the ability to make big plays better than injured Spikes + aging Fletcher + rookie Ellison.

I know thats being optimistic, but hey there are a few of those left out here as Bills fans :couch:

[jamze132]

Every town has a Graham Central Station.
Just about, but that one seemed to rock more than other's that I have been to.

[justasportsfan]

sure- it was part of the problem. But this D had a LOT of problems and you're counting on one year of experience to fix them all. That's just naive.

Having younger players share time again on their second year with over the hill players or injured is not gonna take longer than one year?

By your logic, we should've let JP share more time with Holcomb last year to ease him in . Is that what you're saying since you insist we should've kept Spikes in there and share time with Ellison again this year? Remember, you're the one who keeps saying that the QB position takes longer to learn than any position. Therfore we should let JP share more time than a lb'er.

[OpIv37]

Having younger players share time again on their second year with over the hill players or injured is not gonna take longer than one year?

By your logic, we should've let JP share more time with Holcomb last year to ease him in . Is that what you're saying since you insist we should've kept Spikes in there and share time with Ellison again this year? Remember, you're the one who keeps saying that the QB position takes longer to learn than any position. Therfore we should let JP share more time than a lb'er.

I never said share time with Ellison- I said share time with the yet-to-be-named replacement who may end up being a complete bust. 2 options are better than one.

Also, we do have these people called COACHES. If the coaches think the vet is getting in the way of the rookie, simply bench the vet. End of story. Or, if the rookie isn't developing fast enough, bench the rookie so we don't lose. Somewhere in there, I think you forgot that the goal is to WIN and not just develop players.

And we've been over this- QB IS DIFFERENT. It takes more time and it's a horrible example because it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. You always bring that up but it never makes sense. QB's can't just be swapped in and out like other positions because it effects the chemistry of the offense. The same doesn't hold true for LB, CB, DT etc.

[realdealryan]

ok, now back to the topic.

Why is Spikes injured, better than Ellison on his second year?


I thought the topic was Turner in Buffalo.

[justasportsfan]

I never said share time with Ellison- I said share time with the yet-to-be-named replacement who may end up being a complete bust. 2 options are better than one.

Also, we do have these people called COACHES. If the coaches think the vet is getting in the way of the rookie, simply bench the vet. End of story. Really? So why did they put Spikes in there in the first place even though he was a liability. You don't just bench your multi million starter. that's what theydid with Spikes even though Ellison was definitely playing better. You don't want to cause a locker room problem but you can trade him when season ends which they did.

I always have to keep repeating it to you because it's the same thing all over again for you. You always whine about letting questionable player go like Posey




Or, if the rookie isn't developing fast enough, bench the rookie so we don't lose. Somewhere in there, I think you forgot that the goal is to WIN and not just develop players.



You actually think that keeping a questionable player is gonna guarantee wins especially one that doesn't want to be here? That's a screwed up way of thinking.I'm glad you're not the GM.


I guess by your thinking, getting rid of Milloy and putting his replacement Whitner was wrong then? I guess that move was made for us to lose and just develop Whitner? NO, that was a great move. You would've wanted to keep Milloy and him share time with Whitner.




And we've been over this- QB IS DIFFERENT. It takes more time and it's a horrible example because it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. You always bring that up but it never makes sense. QB's can't just be swapped in and out like other positions because it effects the chemistry of the offense. The same doesn't hold true for LB, CB, DT etc.


It is so relevant. You stated that qb's take longer to develop because it's a harder position to learn more than any. So by that logic, JP (, Let's say Spike's repalcement is Digorgio for now) should've shared time with Holcomb(Spikes) in his 2nd year until he's ready? Na, it was right to throw him in there and let himplay just liike it would be right to throw in Spikes' replacement in there NOW rather than wait for next year when Spikes leaves.


Let's say we drafted Willis and he was to replace Spikes . By your logic, he should share time with Spikes? That's just stupid. SPikes will NEVER agree to that in the first place. If the coaches determined Digorgio is Spikes replacement, let him start. He's already had one year under his belt. Just like JP started full time last year.

Besides, with all your whining about Spikes replacement, I think the coaches have something in mind or have assessed the situation , don't you think? Do you honestly they are stupid?

It's so naive to think that a questionable guy like Spikes is the factor between winning and losing. Especially one that doesn't want to be here. He would make a great leader in the locker room knowing he's gonna be shipped out next year. NOT.


Back to turner.

[ublinkwescore]

F R I D A Y!

Ah yes, of course, but which Friday - I hope it's May 4th - that would make an awesome B-day present as long as Marv and Co. don't overpay for him.

[ublinkwescore]

Sometimes young players like Ellison improve going into their second year.

A noble effort, but you are just wasting your time with Op, the sky is always falling with him, the glass is always half empty.

[ublinkwescore]

ok, let's try this one more time.

Tatonka said that there were Ellison-quality LB's available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. If we draft someone other than Willis with the 12th pick, or trade it for Turner, that means that the Ellison-quality LB we get in this draft will have to be on the field.

We had an Ellison-quality LB on the field last year in Ellison and it didn't work. Hence, we have little reason to believe that Ellison, Crowell and an Ellison-quality LB from this year's draft will be any better than last year.

Granted, it wasn't the only problem this team has, but the DL hasn't changed, the safeties haven't changed, and we lost Clements. So, where exactly is the improvement supposed to come from?

don't try to pin this past 7-9 season all on Keith Ellison - it's BS - he's made a few plays out there for us, and frankly, I'm kinda excited to see what he does with a year of NFL experience under his belt, especially with him being a Marv guy.

[SABURZFAN]

I thought the topic was Turner in Buffalo.


he doesn't habla.he's Mexican.

[OpIv37]

don't try to pin this past 7-9 season all on Keith Ellison - it's BS - he's made a few plays out there for us, and frankly, I'm kinda excited to see what he does with a year of NFL experience under his belt, especially with him being a Marv guy.

you need to work on your reading comprehension. I said Ellison wasn't the only problem and I also pointed out that we need improvement and haven't improved any other areas of the D. So if we don't improve on Ellison either, well, expect the same results as last year.

[OpIv37]

Really? So why did they put Spikes in there in the first place even though he was a liability. You don't just bench your multi million starter. that's what theydid with Spikes even though Ellison was definitely playing better. You don't want to cause a locker room problem but you can trade him when season ends which they did.

I always have to keep repeating it to you because it's the same thing all over again for you. You always whine about letting questionable player go like Posey





You actually think that keeping a questionable player is gonna guarantee wins especially one that doesn't want to be here? That's a screwed up way of thinking.I'm glad you're not the GM.


I guess by your thinking, getting rid of Milloy and putting his replacement Whitner was wrong then? I guess that move was made for us to lose and just develop Whitner? NO, that was a great move. You would've wanted to keep Milloy and him share time with Whitner.




It is so relevant. You stated that qb's take longer to develop because it's a harder position to learn more than any. So by that logic, JP (, Let's say Spike's repalcement is Digorgio for now) should've shared time with Holcomb(Spikes) in his 2nd year until he's ready? Na, it was right to throw him in there and let himplay just liike it would be right to throw in Spikes' replacement in there NOW rather than wait for next year when Spikes leaves.


Let's say we drafted Willis and he was to replace Spikes . By your logic, he should share time with Spikes? That's just stupid. SPikes will NEVER agree to that in the first place. If the coaches determined Digorgio is Spikes replacement, let him start. He's already had one year under his belt. Just like JP started full time last year.

Besides, with all your whining about Spikes replacement, I think the coaches have something in mind or have assessed the situation , don't you think? Do you honestly they are stupid?

It's so naive to think that a questionable guy like Spikes is the factor between winning and losing. Especially one that doesn't want to be here. He would make a great leader in the locker room knowing he's gonna be shipped out next year. NOT.


Back to turner.

First, I don't whine about letting questionable players go- I whine about replacing them with even more questionable players. I'm so ****ing sick of this team letting guys go with nothing but our benchwarmers or other teams' benchwarmers to replace them. It's a strategy that hasn't lead to wins, yet you still support it. Go figure.

Second, how is Spikes any less of a question mark than anyone we'd bring in? Spikes might recover and be great or he might suck. We might not even get Willis, and if we do he might be a bust.

Third, in the real world you do what your boss says. If Ellison is better than Spikes and Spikes gets all pissy in the locker room, do you really think the other players are gonna give a damn about what Spikes says? Of course not- they want to win, not keep Spikes from having a hissy fit.

Fourth- you are SO wrong about QB. You can swap LB's in and out without effecting team chemistry, and young LB's can learn by being played in situations where they are not a liability until they learn how the game works at the NFL level. The same is NOT true for QB's- they need to be on the field as much as possible to learn, plus changing QB's is disruptive to the entire offense. So the JP/Spikes comparison is COMPLETELY irrelevant. You can attempt to spin it/justify it however you want, but the truth is that you are simply wrong on that point.

[justasportsfan]

First, I don't whine about letting questionable players go- I whine about replacing them with even more questionable players. I'm so ****ing sick of this team letting guys go with nothing but our benchwarmers or other teams' benchwarmers to replace them. It's a strategy that hasn't lead to wins, yet you still support it. Go figure.

Second, how is Spikes any less of a question mark than anyone we'd bring in? Spikes might recover and be great or he might suck. We might not even get Willis, and if we do he might be a bust.

Third, in the real world you do what your boss says. If Ellison is better than Spikes and Spikes gets all pissy in the locker room, do you really think the other players are gonna give a damn about what Spikes says? Of course not- they want to win, not keep Spikes from having a hissy fit.

Fourth- you are SO wrong about QB. You can swap LB's in and out without effecting team chemistry, and young LB's can learn by being played in situations where they are not a liability until they learn how the game works at the NFL level. The same is NOT true for QB's- they need to be on the field as much as possible to learn, plus changing QB's is disruptive to the entire offense. So the JP/Spikes comparison is COMPLETELY irrelevant. You can attempt to spin it/justify it however you want, but the truth is that you are simply wrong on that point.


By that logic, we should've kept Milloy and have him share snaps with Whitner. Haha!

In this case you know better than the boss? Have you been around the team enough to know whether Spikes replacement is on the team? NO. The bosses have steered this team in the right direction which you have agreed to and yet you talk like you know better.

You may think I'm wrong but again, you always pick on my posts that you can only answer.Keeping Posey was the best thing we did last offseason and you whined about that.

It's only a matter of time before we find out if Spikes will ever be 100% but it wasn't wrong to let a player who didn't want to be here go whether his replacement was on the team already or not.

You keep whining about wanting to win, well there was a deal on the table, we grabbed it . If Spikes replacement isn't on the team yet, we will address it. You're just too whiny to even wait. It's not like this coaching staff has been sitting on it's ass. You're just too whiny to let them do their jobs. You were also whining about a 4.9 million player with questionmarks.

[OpIv37]

By that logic, we should've kept Milloy and have him share snaps with Whitner. Haha!

In this case you know better than the boss? Have you been around the team enough to know whether Spikes replacement is on the team? NO. The bosses have steered this team in the right direction which you have agreed to and yet you talk like you know better.

You may think I'm wrong but again, you always pick on my posts that you can only answer.Keeping Posey was the best thing we did last offseason and you whined about that.

It's only a matter of time before we find out if Spikes will ever be 100% but it wasn't wrong to let a player who didn't want to be here go whether his replacement was on the team already or not.

You keep whining about wanting to win, well there was a deal on the table, we grabbed it . If Spikes replacement isn't on the team yet, we will address it. You're just too whiny to even wait. It's not like this coaching staff has been sitting on it's ass. You're just too whiny to let them do their jobs. You were also whining about a 4.9 million player with questionmarks.

letting Posey go was a good decision but not replacing him showed on the field- there's no denying that if you look at the results.

Once again, you have yet to answer this: If Spikes' replacement is on the roster, why was Spikes playing last year and not the replacement? (this assumes that Ellison is Fletcher's replacement cuz he can't be both). The coaches you're so high on either ****ed up by not playing Spikes' replacement last year or they ****ed up by letting him go without a replacement. Pick your poison but either way they ****ed up.

And you say "it's not like the coaching staff has been sitting on their ass". Well yeah, they have. Because FA is over for all intensive purposes- there are no FA LB's left who are equal to or better than Spikes. That just leaves the draft, which is a huge gamble because like I've said 100,000 times, you never know if they'll get the player they want and you'll never know if that player will a bust.

And if Spikes' replacement isn't on the team yet, all we're doing is replacing one question mark with another question mark. Where does that get us? It saves us 4.9 million- maybe that's what this is really about- but it doesn't make us any better on the field.

You act like dumping Spikes got rid of a huge burden. Well it didn't. All it did was take a position where we had a questionable player and turn it into a position where we have NO player. It made a potential question mark into a definite question mark.

[ublinkwescore]

you need to work on your reading comprehension. I said Ellison wasn't the only problem and I also pointed out that we need improvement and haven't improved any other areas of the D. So if we don't improve on Ellison either, well, expect the same results as last year.

Still, what is it with you and your hard-on for bashing Ellison - the guy stepped in as a rookie, made a few tackles for losses and picked off a pass - granted it was against the Dolphins on a day when the rest of our D decided to show up and play, but you shouldn't have to apologize for your schedule... what the hell else do you want from the guy - I'm glad we got him where we got him - he was a great value and excellent depth at the worst.

[ublinkwescore]

letting Posey go was a good decision but not replacing him showed on the field- there's no denying that if you look at the results.

Once again, you have yet to answer this: If Spikes' replacement is on the roster, why was Spikes playing last year and not the replacement? (this assumes that Ellison is Fletcher's replacement cuz he can't be both). The coaches you're so high on either ****ed up by not playing Spikes' replacement last year or they ****ed up by letting him go without a replacement. Pick your poison but either way they ****ed up.

And you say "it's not like the coaching staff has been sitting on their ass". Well yeah, they have. Because FA is over for all intensive purposes- there are no FA LB's left who are equal to or better than Spikes. That just leaves the draft, which is a huge gamble because like I've said 100,000 times, you never know if they'll get the player they want and you'll never know if that player will a bust.

And if Spikes' replacement isn't on the team yet, all we're doing is replacing one question mark with another question mark. Where does that get us? It saves us 4.9 million- maybe that's what this is really about- but it doesn't make us any better on the field.

You act like dumping Spikes got rid of a huge burden. Well it didn't. All it did was take a position where we had a questionable player and turn it into a position where we have NO player. It made a potential question mark into a definite question mark.

Our linebackers before Crowell's injury outside of Spikes and Fletcher weren't the main liability last season - Crowell and Ellison performed admirably - Fletcher got his garbage tackles, but he also made some plays - Spikes I have a feeling won't be missed - if we can get a good scheme LB, we'll again be fine at LB I feel - we need to just hope that a couple of our DTs step it up this year -McCargo, and Triplett hopefully - I'm happy with Kyle Williams - no one can deny that he was a steal - and I'm confident that he hasn't reached his cieling yet. Our Secondary has a real question mark with the loss of Clements, but look for a more experienced Whitner and Simpson to pick some of that slack up, and hopefully Youboty proving he really was a first round talent - not all these things will happen, but some will - I will bet any amount of ZBs I have on that - Marv is sticking to his plan of building through the draft, and I think this team is more set than a lot of people think.

[OpIv37]

Still, what is it with you and your hard-on for bashing Ellison - the guy stepped in as a rookie, made a few tackles for losses and picked off a pass - granted it was against the Dolphins on a day when the rest of our D decided to show up and play, but you shouldn't have to apologize for your schedule... what the hell else do you want from the guy - I'm glad we got him where we got him - he was a great value and excellent depth at the worst.

dude, you still need to work on your reading comprehension. I never bashed Ellison- as a rookie he did about as good as can be expected. But here's the problem: clearly, that wasn't good enough. If we go into the season with yet ANOTHER rookie starting at LB, we're going to get the same ****ty results.

[justasportsfan]

letting Posey go was a good decision but not replacing him showed on the field- there's no denying that if you look at the results.

Once again, you have yet to answer this: If Spikes' replacement is on the roster, why was Spikes playing last year and not the replacement? (this assumes that Ellison is Fletcher's replacement cuz he can't be both). The coaches you're so high on either ****ed up by not playing Spikes' replacement last year or they ****ed up by letting him go without a replacement. Pick your poison but either way they ****ed up.

And you say "it's not like the coaching staff has been sitting on their ass". Well yeah, they have. Because FA is over for all intensive purposes- there are no FA LB's left who are equal to or better than Spikes. That just leaves the draft, which is a huge gamble because like I've said 100,000 times, you never know if they'll get the player they want and you'll never know if that player will a bust.

And if Spikes' replacement isn't on the team yet, all we're doing is replacing one question mark with another question mark. Where does that get us? It saves us 4.9 million- maybe that's what this is really about- but it doesn't make us any better on the field.

You act like dumping Spikes got rid of a huge burden. Well it didn't. All it did was take a position where we had a questionable player and turn it into a position where we have NO player. It made a potential question mark into a definite question mark.


I seriously wonder if you know what you're watching. Posey was crap and we suffered not because of the lb'ers as much as the DT's. In case you missed it, our total D improved from the year before.

The reason why SPikes was put back in there was because he was the starter and the leader on this team. Marv always stated the starter should never lose his spot due to injury. Now that they put him back in there and have realized that his health is questionable, they traded him. Don''t look at what they did on the field, look at what the end result is. HE'S GONE! Now it's time to find his replacement if he isn't on the team yet. Whether it's Willis or not, that's what rebuilding is all about.

That's what drafts are all about. Questionmarks. It's a crap shoot. Replacing a questionable player with another one goes on everyday in the NFL whether it's via the draft, FA, etc. but at least the replacement we're most likely to bring in is younger AND WANTS TO BE HERE! How hard is that for you to understand?


Read the NE thread, I bet you are all for what the redskins are doing if they land Sammuel and BB takes Landry.

I guess it's knida hopless trying to argue with someone who doesn't know the meaning of rebuilding. In your mind the redskins way is rebuilding.

[justasportsfan]

If we go into the season with yet ANOTHER rookie starting at LB, we're going to get the same ****ty results.
yeah, Whitner and Simpson surely broought "****ty results as compared to Wire and Milloy.

A case of ,I know better than the boss.

[jdbillsfan]

letting Posey go was a good decision but not replacing him showed on the field- there's no denying that if you look at the results.

Once again, you have yet to answer this: If Spikes' replacement is on the roster, why was Spikes playing last year and not the replacement? (this assumes that Ellison is Fletcher's replacement cuz he can't be both). The coaches you're so high on either ****ed up by not playing Spikes' replacement last year or they ****ed up by letting him go without a replacement. Pick your poison but either way they ****ed up.

And you say "it's not like the coaching staff has been sitting on their ass". Well yeah, they have. Because FA is over for all intensive purposes- there are no FA LB's left who are equal to or better than Spikes. That just leaves the draft, which is a huge gamble because like I've said 100,000 times, you never know if they'll get the player they want and you'll never know if that player will a bust.

And if Spikes' replacement isn't on the team yet, all we're doing is replacing one question mark with another question mark. Where does that get us? It saves us 4.9 million- maybe that's what this is really about- but it doesn't make us any better on the field.

You act like dumping Spikes got rid of a huge burden. Well it didn't. All it did was take a position where we had a questionable player and turn it into a position where we have NO player. It made a potential question mark into a definite question mark.

I think there were other issues besides his cap hit. Spikes didn't want to be in Buffalo anymore. After losing his buddy Flectcher he wanted out. With the combination of his injury, cap figure and not wanting to be in Buffalo, it makes it hard to keep him. It also is nice to get something in return. Most players that fit that description are usually just cut.

Hopefully Darwin Walker does add something to our defense.

The Bills do have a hole at LB now, but at least it will be filled by someone who wants to be there.

[OpIv37]

I seriously wonder if you know what you're watching. Posey was crap and we suffered not because of the lb'ers as much as the DT's. In case you missed it, our total D improved from the year before.

The reason why SPikes was put back in there was because he was the starter and the leader on this team. Marv always stated the starter should never lose his spot due to injury. Now that they put him back in there and have realized that his health is questionable, they traded him. Don''t look at what they did on the field, look at what the end result is. HE'S GONE! Now it's time to find his replacement if he isn't on the team yet. Whether it's Willis or not, that's what rebuilding is all about.

That's what drafts are all about. Questionmarks. It's a crap shoot. Replacing a questionable player with another one goes on everyday in the NFL whether it's via the draft, FA, etc. but at least the replacement we're most likely to bring in is younger AND WANTS TO BE HERE! How hard is that for you to understand?


Read the NE thread, I bet you are all for what the redskins are doing if they land Sammuel and BB takes Landry.

I guess it's knida hopless trying to argue with someone who doesn't know the meaning of rebuilding. In your mind the redskins way is rebuilding.


Actually you missed it- we gave up more yards in 06 than in 05. That's regression- not improvement. If Posey wasn't the guy, fine- but the guy in there obviously didn't do any better.

And once again, it's black and white with you: it's either the Redskins way, or this 119-year rebuilding through the draft. Here's a thought: HAVE A REPLACEMENT IN MIND BEFORE CUTTING THE GUY. I'm not saying anything about going after high priced FA's- I'm talking about replacing the guys we've lost. And so far, we haven't done that.

Oh, and if Spikes returns from his injury and still isn't playing as well as the guy on the bench behind him, that's not losing your job to injury. It's losing your job by not performing.

And the coaches put us in a position where it's Willis or we're ****ed at LB. End of story. There is NO ONE else available who will help. You're so convinced that Spikes' replacement is on the roster despite the fact that the only LB's on the roster who have shown anything are Crowell and Ellison- that's 2 and we need 3. There is absolutely no evidence to back up your assertion.

[OpIv37]

yeah, Whitner and Simpson surely broought "****ty results as compared to Wire and Milloy.

A case of ,I know better than the boss.

the boss got us 7-9 and 27th against the run. We're picking 12th in the draft, which proves there are at least 18 people in the world who know better than the boss. Beign the boss doesn't make someone infallible. Deal with it.

[justasportsfan]

Actually you missed it- we gave up more yards in 06 than in 05. That's regression- not improvement. If Posey wasn't the guy, fine- but the guy in there obviously didn't do any better.

And once again, it's black and white with you: it's either the Redskins way, or this 119-year rebuilding through the draft. Here's a thought: HAVE A REPLACEMENT IN MIND BEFORE CUTTING THE GUY. I'm not saying anything about going after high priced FA's- I'm talking about replacing the guys we've lost. And so far, we haven't done that.

Oh, and if Spikes returns from his injury and still isn't playing as well as the guy on the bench behind him, that's not losing your job to injury. It's losing your job by not performing.

And the coaches put us in a position where it's Willis or we're ****ed at LB. End of story. There is NO ONE else available who will help. You're so convinced that Spikes' replacement is on the roster despite the fact that the only LB's on the roster who have shown anything are Crowell and Ellison- that's 2 and we need 3. There is absolutely no evidence to back up your assertion.


blaming total yards solely on the lb'ers is just stupid especially when you don't factor in that Spikes was a liability which is probably why they let him go. You are whining about a player who play was partly the reason why we lost more yards. Hello!

You are also forgettting the entire D was learning a new system, new player in the middle of the DL, etc.etc.

I'm black and white? You're the one who too dense to realize that maybe the coaches already have a replacement in mind. Spikes nos. last year can easily be replced but you're to dense to even see that.

Let me ask you this, if we brought in Turner would you say our rb's are better than last year?

[justasportsfan]

the boss got us 7-9 and 27th against the run. We're picking 12th in the draft, which proves there are at least 18 people in the world who know better than the boss. Beign the boss doesn't make someone infallible. Deal with it.


who's black and white again? 7-9 but yet you agree that we're headed the right direction? You forgot to add that that 7-9 is in his first year.



I never said the boss is infallible but he's done better than most people expected even YOU! So instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt after all by your admittance, he's got the team steered the right direction, whine about a player who is not only questionable but doesn't want to be here . Great logic.

[OpIv37]

blaming total yards solely on the lb'ers is just stupid especially when you don't factor in that Spikes was a liability which is probably why they let him go. You are whining about a player who play was partly the reason why we lost more yards. Hello!

You are also forgettting the entire D was learning a new system, new player in the middle of the DL, etc.etc.

I'm black and white? You're the one who too dense to realize that maybe the coaches already have a replacement in mind. Spikes nos. last year can easily be replced but you're to dense to even see that.

Let me ask you this, if we brought in Turner would you say our rb's are better than last year?

Spikes' numbers CAN be replaced but they HAVEN'T been. We're stuck trying to replace him through the draft, and I've already stated the problems with doing that many times. You say I'm whining about a player who's play was the reason we lost more yards- well think about this: who do we have that's EQUAL OR BETTER? Answer: No one. Once again, cutting an underperforming player isn't the issue. The issue is improving that position and so far we've failed in that aspect and have very few options before the season starts.

There are ways to build a team OTHER than the Redskins way and our way. Hell, at the very least we should sign some 2nd tier FA for camp competition in case whoever we draft sucks. I know we've failed with 2nd tier FA's too but there's gotta be someone available better than Haggan, Stamer and Wire. If Marv can't find someone better than that, he probably shouldn't be GM.

If Turner was brought in, I would definitely consider it to be an upgrade at RB. Hell, there are guys in the 2nd and 3rd round of the draft that I would consider to be an upgrade over McGahee.

[OpIv37]

who's black and white again? 7-9 but yet you agree that we're headed the right direction? You forgot to add that that 7-9 is in his first year.



I never said the boss is infallible but he's done better than most people expected even YOU! So instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt after all by your admittance, he's got the team steered the right direction, whine about a player who is not only questionable but doesn't want to be here . Great logic.

once again, not whining about the player- whining about the lack of an equal or better player to take his place. Spikes at 50% is still better than Wire and Stamer.

[justasportsfan]

Spikes' numbers CAN be replaced but they HAVEN'T been. . you are holding on to the thought of a Spikes who was a probowl player. Spikes nos. from last year is easily replaced .


If Turner was brought in, I would definitely consider it to be an upgrade at RB. Hell, there are guys in the 2nd and 3rd round of the draft that I would consider to be an upgrade over McGahee.
This is why you're way of thinking is questionable.

Turner hasn't done squat in the NFL but has a ton potential . Willis at this point in time is more proven. But it's an upgrade to replace a questionable rb with a questionable rb? Make up you mind.

WM=Spikes

Turner or 2nd or 3rd rd. RB = Spikes' replacement whether he's on the team or in the draft. IMagaine that even if we draft Willis , you had a problem with him being a questionmark even though Turner is the same thing.

Nuff said. Stop contradicting yourself.

[ublinkwescore]

dude, you still need to work on your reading comprehension. I never bashed Ellison- as a rookie he did about as good as can be expected. But here's the problem: clearly, that wasn't good enough. If we go into the season with yet ANOTHER rookie starting at LB, we're going to get the same ****ty results.

So this couldn't legitimately come across as bashing him?

"same $#!tty results" huh? it's the same concept you're applying to this year's rookie LB (which it looks like we will inevitably have) that you've applied to Keith Ellison in your evaluation of him - and every time someone mentions linebacker, or our defense, you always bring up Ellison and negativity - maybe you need to go work on your grammar/comprehension/English Language/the way people are gonna interpret what you post etc...

[TedMock]

My take on last year's defense is that Ellison and Crowell were indeed good enough, but Fletcher and the DT's were not. Most of the rushing yardage came up the gut. Fletcher is a good LB and a good tackler, but he is not a down-hill guy. Our NT's last season weren't strong enough and Fletcher wasn't coming up on the tackles; rather he was playing more of a read-and-react style. That's fine; just not in this type of defense.

Spikes is a great LB and I think he'll be a great LB in Philly. However, we all know that he missed huge chunks of last season. So, in theory, he won't be missed as much as we all think. He's my favorite player and it saddens me to say that, but it is what it is. Even when Spikes returned as the "starter," Ellison played on long downs because Spikes couldn't cover the same ground. I'm sure that's part of what upset him last season. The unknown rookie was actually better in certain aspects of the game.

As for the NT position: I read that McCargo and Williams both put on a good bit of muscle weight in the offseason. If true, this could possibly solve a huge hole at DT. Tripplet wasn't the problem last season as he wasn't the 2-gap guy. Guys like Tim Anderson were the problem because they couldn't take up blockers. Williams did what he could, but he weighed 295. Not big enough for the 2-gap NT. Now, supposedly he's in the 310-315 range as is McCargo. Much better. Especially when we already know that they can both also play the other tackle spot. That makes them even more valuable in case one of the 1-gappers gets injured.

You can never be certain, but if our two young, hungry, DT's were dedicated enough to put on weight knowing darn well that they'd be playing a new position in which they won't generate a lot of stats then I'm a little more comfortable with it. Again, you never know, but this makes me more comfortable. We need that old Freddie Smerlas mentality on the d-line. A guy who won't get moved. A guy who will take up blockers. He may not generate a bunch of stats, but he may be the most valuable position on the defense.

[OpIv37]

you are holding on to the thought of a Spikes who was a probowl player. Spikes nos. from last year is easily replaced .

This is why you're way of thinking is questionable.

Turner hasn't done squat in the NFL but has a ton potential . Willis at this point in time is more proven. But it's an upgrade to replace a questionable rb with a questionable rb? Make up you mind.

WM=Spikes

Turner or 2nd or 3rd rd. RB = Spikes' replacement whether he's on the team or in the draft. IMagaine that even if we draft Willis , you had a problem with him being a questionmark even though Turner is the same thing.

Nuff said. Stop contradicting yourself.

Spikes nos from last year CAN be replaced but they HAVEN'T been. FA is basically over and I've already been over the risks involved in the draft. At the moment, there is ZERO guarantee that even Spikes' paltry production from last year will be corrected before the season starts.

Second, there are a lot more options at RB at the moment than there are with LB. I'm no fan of Dillon or Chris Brown, but either of those guys would make us at least equal at RB to where we were last year, and there are a lot of guys in the draft who can get 990 yards.

Third, Turner has played well at the NFL. the ONLY question mark about him is whether or not he can go the distance and carry the load for the full season. He's far more proven than any draft pick. So the Spikes and Turner situations are NOT the same. You're oversimplifying the issue.

[OpIv37]

So this couldn't legitimately come across as bashing him?

"same $#!tty results" huh? it's the same concept you're applying to this year's rookie LB (which it looks like we will inevitably have) that you've applied to Keith Ellison in your evaluation of him - and every time someone mentions linebacker, or our defense, you always bring up Ellison and negativity - maybe you need to go work on your grammar/comprehension/English Language/the way people are gonna interpret what you post etc...

Our entire D was ****ty last year. Ellison was part of it. The rest of the D wasn't improved upon. If Ellison isn't improved upon either, what do you think will happen next year?

I never said Ellison was the entire part of the problem. Ever think of it like this: there are a lot of people around here who are way too high on Ellison and when I point out that he was part of a ****ty D, it seems like I'm "bashing" him because I refuse to kiss his ass. The guy was decent around here but too many people seem to think he's the next Derrick Brooks for some unknown reason.

[justasportsfan]

Spikes nos from last year CAN be replaced but they HAVEN'T been. FA is basically over and I've already been over the risks involved in the draft. At the moment, there is ZERO guarantee that even Spikes' paltry production from last year will be corrected before the season starts.

Second, there are a lot more options at RB at the moment than there are with LB. I'm no fan of Dillon or Chris Brown, but either of those guys would make us at least equal at RB to where we were last year, and there are a lot of guys in the draft who can get 990 yards.

Third, Turner has played well at the NFL. the ONLY question mark about him is whether or not he can go the distance and carry the load for the full season. He's far more proven than any draft pick. So the Spikes and Turner situations are NOT the same. You're oversimplifying the issue.

Uh , in case you missed it, Ellison had a better year than Spikes so it's already been replaced.

So you admit Turner has questionmarks . So why is he an upgrade over Willis when Willis has ran for over 100o yards and a full season as a workhorse. Just like you said about Spikes , WM nos. can be replaced but they haven't been by either Turner or a draft pick. Stop contradicting yourself.

You are worried about whether or not if drafting Willis can replace Spikes and yet a 2nd or 3rd rb in this years draft is an upgrade over Willis?


You bring up Willis 990 yards but forgetting Spikes nos. from last year can easily be replaced by eitherr Eillison or a draft pick?

You're nit picking the stats you want to justify your logic. No can do. If you can't see the SELF CONTRADICTION of your own way of thinkng , nothing I can do.

[ublinkwescore]

Our entire D was ****ty last year. Ellison was part of it. The rest of the D wasn't improved upon. If Ellison isn't improved upon either, what do you think will happen next year?

I never said Ellison was the entire part of the problem. Ever think of it like this: there are a lot of people around here who are way too high on Ellison and when I point out that he was part of a ****ty D, it seems like I'm "bashing" him because I refuse to kiss his ass. The guy was decent around here but too many people seem to think he's the next Derrick Brooks for some unknown reason.

I think it could be a very fair assumption that Ellison will be even better this year because of having a year under his belt - the same can be said about just about all of our rookies - especially since a lot of them saw the field - minus Aaron Merz.

Sorry buddy - I think the DTs are a bigger worry for us than LB/DE/DB.

LB comes in at 2nd, but I'm not for us addressing DT because we've got some unkown commodities at the position (Walker and McCargo, and now we've got some additional weight at the position it seems as well) and I'm willing to stand pat at the position for this year to see what we've really got.

Early in the season, our O couldn't stay on the field, and as a result, our D would be tired late in games - I think this D will be better than last year's without question - in fact, I'll bet you any amount of ZBs. A major reason for that will be our suddenly more consistent O that will keep our D off the field.

[OpIv37]

Uh , in case you missed it, Ellison had a better year than Spikes so it's already been replaced.

So you admit Turner has questionmarks . So why is he an upgrade over Willis when Willis has ran for over 100o yards and a full season as a workhorse. Just like you said about Spikes , WM nos. can be replaced but they haven't been by either Turner or a draft pick. Stop contradicting yourself.

You are worried about whether or not if drafting Willis can replace Spikes and yet a 2nd or 3rd rb in this years draft is an upgrade over Willis?


You bring up Willis 990 yards but forgetting Spikes nos. from last year can easily be replaced by eitherr Eillison or a draft pick?

You're nit picking the stats you want to justify your logic. No can do. If you can't see the SELF CONTRADICTION of your own way of thinkng , nothing I can do.

First, make up your mind. Did Ellison replace Spikes or did Ellison replace Fletcher? He can't do both. No matter how you do the math, we're down an LB. You accuse me of nit-picking, but then you change who Ellison is replacing in the middle of the argument.

Second, you're still making the unrealistic assumption that all positions are equivalent. RB is one of the easiest positions to come in and make an impact. It's more challenging at LB because it's more important to read and react to the O. Finding a 1st year RB starter in the draft is much easier than finding a 1st year LB starter.

Third, you are COMPLETELY overstating McGahee's value. The guy put in ZERO effort. He's physically talented but there is no way he would perform for this team. Contrast that with Spikes, who may or may not perform well based on his recovery- a maybe is better than a definite NO, which is what we had in McGahee.

Fourth, you're assuming we get P. Willis, which once again, is NOT guaranteed.

And finally, you're exaggerating the question marks about Turner. The guy has proven he can play in the NFL. No draft pick at any position has done that.

I'm not contradicting myself at all- you're oversimplifying the problem to make it appear that way and you're comparing two different situations as if they are equivalent.

[justasportsfan]

First, make up your mind. Did Ellison replace Spikes or did Ellison replace Fletcher? He can't do both. No matter how you do the math, we're down an LB. You accuse me of nit-picking, but then you change who Ellison is replacing in the middle of the argument.

Second, you're still making the unrealistic assumption that all positions are equivalent. RB is one of the easiest positions to come in and make an impact. It's more challenging at LB because it's more important to read and react to the O. Finding a 1st year RB starter in the draft is much easier than finding a 1st year LB starter.

Third, you are COMPLETELY overstating McGahee's value. The guy put in ZERO effort. He's physically talented but there is no way he would perform for this team. Contrast that with Spikes, who may or may not perform well based on his recovery- a maybe is better than a definite NO, which is what we had in McGahee.

Fourth, you're assuming we get P. Willis, which once again, is NOT guaranteed.

And finally, you're exaggerating the question marks about Turner. The guy has proven he can play in the NFL. No draft pick at any position has done that.

I'm not contradicting myself at all- you're oversimplifying the problem to make it appear that way and you're comparing two different situations as if they are equivalent.



Turner =unproven.

2nd or 3rd rd rb draft pick=unproven

Yet they are both upgrades over WM? Haha! That's funny. Whether Willis had a lack of effort or whatever, neither Turner nor a draft pick has ever achieved that.

I'm not even gonna bring up his nos. from the seasons before last year because you're only as good as your last season. Neither WM and Spikes were anything to write home about but both are questionamarks unless you're trying to spin things to make a point which you have.


Whether it's Digorgio , Willis or whoever is Spikes' replacement =unproven

Yet it's a problem.

Self contradiction. Nuff said. I'm done.

[OpIv37]

Turner =unproven.

2nd or 3rd rd rb draft pick=unproven

Yet they are both upgrades over WM? Haha! That's funny.


Whether it's Digorgio , Willis or whoever is Spikes' replacement =unproven

Yet it's a problem.

Self contradiction. Nuff said. I'm done.

Michael Turner is NOT unproven.

LB is NOT as easy to replace as RB.

Your lack of understanding of the situation is not the same as self contradiction on my part.

And let's pretend for a second that you're right. What you just said is that we now have two holes that need to be filled with unproven players- LB and RB- and neither of them were holes when the 2006 season ended. And you know who created those holes? The very same coaches and GM that you relentlessly defend.

[justasportsfan]

Michael Turner is NOT unproven.. yes he is but with a ton of potential. You're banking on his potential instead of facts. Other than having higher YPC , I want to see FACTS that he's put up better nos. than Willis with Willis' OL from years passed. You DON"T HAVE ANY other than potential.


Why did you ignore the draft picks you said would be upgrades? You don't have facts as well and using draft picks to replace WM would contradict your thoughts on them replacing Spikes ;)

Don't worry I like Turners potential as well just like Willis potential if we draft him but you have your worries about a draft pick replacing Spikes.


LB is NOT as easy to replace as RB.. Spikes from last year is easily replaced.


Your lack of understanding of the situation is not the same as self contradiction on my part.

And let's pretend for a second that you're right. What you just said is that we now have two holes that need to be filled with unproven players- LB and RB- and neither of them were holes when the 2006 season ended. And you know who created those holes? The very same coaches and GM that you relentlessly defend. Wrong , I don't enlessly defend the coaches. I do however give them the benefit of the doubt after all they have surpassed my expectations and YOURS! Just because I don't jump the gun or have a doom and gloom outlook like you and PAt do , doesn't mean I endlessly defend them either. I know you're trying to switch subjets with that because of your self contradiction. ;)

2nd of all, the coaches didn't create those holes. Spikes and Willis created them when they wanted to leave. you missed that again.

Getting rid of them is better than keeping them for another year and causing problems in the locker room but thats another subject.