Have we Fallen in love with Willis's 40 time over his actual playing ability?

[THATHURMANATOR]

I am seriously asking this question. I haven't really seen him play.

[gr8slayer]

Well the talk really picked up after he ran his forty. I think people overrate strait line speed.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Thanks for the input G8.

[gr8slayer]

Thanks for the input G8.
:meh: Only saw the guy play one game so I'm not much help, I thought he was average but it was only one game.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I think a majority of us have never even seen any of these guys play in more than a couple games. The most I have seen play is Poz in like 3 games in his entire career and he looked great to me.

[gr8slayer]

I think a majority of us have never even seen any of these guys play in more than a couple games. The most I have seen play is Poz in like 3 games in his entire career and he looked great to me.
Now Poz I have seen play. He looks like a beast and he is a "Marv guy," thus I can see it happening.

[OpIv37]

I think a majority of us have never even seen any of these guys play in more than a couple games. The most I have seen play is Poz in like 3 games in his entire career and he looked great to me.

I only saw Poz in one game and he wasn't bad but he wasn't anything spectacular- or, to put it another way, I didn't see anything that made me think he's worth the 12th pick. However, it was only one game.

But the general consensus on him is that he never came all the way back from his injury.

[mchurchfie]

I saw Willis's highlights and he looked pretty damn good to me. He looks like he sniffs plays out pretty good and goes sideline to sideline. He was pretty highly regarded before his forty time came out so I am sure there is more to him than just that.

[gr8slayer]

I saw Willis's highlights and he looked pretty damn good to me. He looks like he sniffs plays out pretty good and goes sideline to sideline. He was pretty highly regarded before his forty time came out so I am sure there is more to him than just that.
Yeah but come on, you can find highlights of even the most average players that make them look amazing.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Willis is kinda small and you wonder if he can shed blockers.

[gr8slayer]

Willis is kinda small and you wonder if he can shed blockers.
No smaller than Ellison and Crowell.

[Ickybaluky]

He was a productive college player as well, it isn't just a workout guy.

However, you are right his draft stock has really risen based on his workout, making him go from a middle/late 1st rounder to a high first rounder. People are making him sound like Brian Urlacher, which might be a bit of a stretch. He workouts do show he is a good enough athlete to be a LB that can stay on the field in passing situations, which makes him more valuabe.

I think, in general, ILB aren't usually picked high in the first round. The guys that go that high are the pass rushers because there is such a premium on that skill. So, by that criteria he is probably being a little overrated. However, I think he has as good a chance of being a good NFL player as any prospect outside of Calvin Johnson, so it isn't like he would be a bad pick.

[Ickybaluky]

Now Poz I have seen play. He looks like a beast and he is a "Marv guy," thus I can see it happening.

I agree with this. POS has looked like a good player every time I have seen him play. I don't understand people putting him down. He is a good prospect.

[gr8slayer]

He was a productive college player as well, it isn't just a workout guy.

However, you are right his draft stock has really risen based on his workout, making him go from a middle/late 1st rounder to a high first rounder. People are making him sound like Brian Urlacher, which might be a bit of a stretch. He workouts do show he is a good enough athlete to be a LB that can stay on the field in passing situations, which makes him more valuabe.

I think, in general, ILB aren't usually picked high in the first round. The guys that go that high are the pass rushers because there is such a premium on that skill. So, by that criteria he is probably being a little overrated. However, I think he has as good a chance of being a good NFL player as any prospect outside of Calvin Johnson, so it isn't like he would be a bad pick.
Would you be more terrified if we drafted him?

[gr8slayer]

I agree with this. POS has looked like a good player every time I have seen him play. I don't understand people putting him down. He is a good prospect.
If he was Black there would be no questions asked.

[Ickybaluky]

Would you be more terrified if we drafted him?

I don't get terrified by picks made by other teams, especially given you never really know how good the guy will be until he plays. I don't worry about things out of my control.

I think Willis, POS or Beason would all be good players for you guys.

[OpIv37]

I agree with this. POS has looked like a good player every time I have seen him play. I don't understand people putting him down. He is a good prospect.

and that's exactly why people are putting him down. We have Crowell and Ellison, followed by Haggan, Stamer, DiGiorgio and Wire. A prospect turns the 2007 season into training camp for 2008. We need a player who will make an immediate impact or else we're screwed.

[gr8slayer]

I don't get terrified by picks made by other teams, especially given you never really know how good the guy will be until he plays. I don't worry about things out of my control.

I think Willis, POS or Beason would all be good players for you guys.
Say you'll be terrified *****!

[Mr. Miyagi]

If he was Black there would be no questions asked.
I bet that's why the Redskins drafted Arrington 2nd overall instead of Urlacher. :scratch:

[gr8slayer]

I bet that's why the Redskins drafted Arrington 2nd overall instead of Urlacher. :scratch:
Hey I have met people (a couple on the "other" Bills board) that hate Kelsay and Schobel because they are White. They feel that if we had two Black DE's we would have more sacks :idunno:

[Ickybaluky]

and that's exactly why people are putting him down. We have Crowell and Ellison, followed by Haggan, Stamer, DiGiorgio and Wire. A prospect turns the 2007 season into training camp for 2008. We need a player who will make an immediate impact or else we're screwed.

When I look at Willis, Beason and Pos, I don't think there is a huge difference. They may be a little better at different things, but as overall prospects they are the same. I see Willis as the best fit inside, a real chase-and-tackle kind of guy. Beason is more of a WS guy, but plays with similar intensity and can really get after the ball. Pos seems the more natural LB and seems more versatile.

However, as overall prospects I think they all rank similarly. I don't think any one stands out over the others as a prospect.

[justasportsfan]

He was a productive college player as well, it isn't just a workout guy.

However, you are right his draft stock has really risen based on his workout, making him go from a middle/late 1st rounder to a high first rounder. People are making him sound like Brian Urlacher, which might be a bit of a stretch. He workouts do show he is a good enough athlete to be a LB that can stay on the field in passing situations, which makes him more valuabe.

I think, in general, ILB aren't usually picked high in the first round. The guys that go that high are the pass rushers because there is such a premium on that skill. So, by that criteria he is probably being a little overrated. However, I think he has as good a chance of being a good NFL player as any prospect outside of Calvin Johnson, so it isn't like he would be a bad pick.


People compared him to AJ Hawk in terms of playing ability regardless of position. Would that be a fair comparison? :idunno:

[gr8slayer]

Patrick Willis
ILB | (6'1", 242, 4.51) | MISSISSIPPI

Strengths: Possesses good height, adequate bulk and still has room on his frame to improve bulk. He is quick, fluid and agile for his size. Shows very good lateral quickness and initial burst. He takes solid angles in pursuit and does a good job of sifting through traffic. Powerful enough to take on blocks in the phone booth when he's playing with leverage. He explodes through tackles and is reliable in space. A sideline-to-sideline pursuit linebacker. Shows good agility and fluidness in coverage. Gets a deep drop in zone and displays above average range. Can match up versus most tight ends and running backs one-on-one. Displays good burst and instincts as a blitzer, as well. Is a leader and hard-worker. Loves the game of football, plays through pain and leads by example.

Weaknesses: He lacks elite bulk and may need to add some weight in order to hold up better as an inside linebacker in the NFL. He has a muscular build but he does not possess ideal lower-body thickness. Plays a bit high at times and will let too many defenders get into his body. He is above average in terms of range in coverage, but he can be slow to diagnose at times. He also displays below average ball skills in coverage. Plays through pain but he has had trouble staying healthy throughout his career and always seems to be battling lingering injuries, some of which include knee, finger, foot and shoulder.

Overall: Willis played in all 13 games in 2003 as a true freshman, making 20 total tackles and one tackle for loss. In 2004, he saw action in 10 of 11 games and finished the year with 70 total tackles, 11 tackles for loss, five sacks, one fumble recovery, and one forced fumble. Willis earned first team All-SEC honors (Associated Press, coaches) after the 2005 season when he started the 10 contests he played in and recorded 128 total tackles, 9.5 tackles for loss, three sacks, one interception, one fumble recovery, and two forced fumbles. He missed the Wyoming game (9/24) with a knee injury and battled several other injuries including a broken finger, a sprained knee, a foot sprain, and a partially separated AC shoulder joint. Willis also missed spring practice in 2006 after having off-season foot surgery. He returned for the 2006 season and started all 12 games, finishing with 137 total tackles, 11.5 tackles for loss, 3 sacks, two forced fumbles, and one fumble recovery earning him first team All-American, first team All-SEC, SEC Defensive Player of the Year honors, and the Butkus Award.

Willis needs to learn to play more under control and his recognition skills in coverage need work. Otherwise, there's very little wrong with Willis as an NFL prospect. He has an outstanding combination of size, speed and agility. His tremendous workout performances in the postseason only verified what we've seen on him as a playmaking starter the past few seasons in the SEC. In our opinion, Willis is the top linebacker in the 2007 class and he should be ready to start immediately as a middle linebacker in the NFL.

[gr8slayer]

Paul Posluszny
OLB | (6'1", 238, 4.63) | PENN STATE

Strengths: Possesses good height, adequate bulk and room on frame to get bigger. He is one of the most instinctive linebackers in this year's class. Plays the game with tremendous intensity and toughness. Displays adequate speed and athleticism. Diagnoses plays as quickly as any linebacker in the country and takes outstanding angles in pursuit. He makes plays from sideline-to-sideline versus the run. Possesses adequate-to-good fluidity in hips. Has great range in zone coverage and will be able to match up versus most running backs in the NFL one-on-one. Displays excellent instincts and closing burst as a pass rusher. He's a natural leader with tremendous overall intangibles. Few work harder and respect the game more than him. Very good student, as well.

Weaknesses: Size is adequate but not elite, especially for teams that project him as a SLB in the NFL. May need to add some bulk to frame in order to hold up in the NFL. Effective in coverage, but lacks ideal ball skills and does not make many big plays in that facet of the game. Durability is an issue after knee injury in 2005-'06 Orange Bowl.

Overall: Posluszny played in eight games as a true freshman in 2003, recording 36 total tackles, 2.5 tackles for loss, one interception, and one fumble recovery. He then started all 11 games at outside linebacker in 2004 finishing the year with 104 total tackles, 12 tackles for loss, three sacks, one interception, and one forced fumble. In 2005, Posluszny became a first team Associated Press All-American after starting every game (12) and registering 116 total tackles, 11 tackles for loss, and three sacks. Posluszny tore two ligaments in his right knee during Penn State's victory over Florida State in this year's Orange Bowl, but the injury did not require surgery. He returned to start all 13 games in 2006, finishing with 116 total tackles, 9.5 tackles for loss, three sacks, and two forced fumbles, earning him first team All-American honors, an All-Big Ten first team (coaches) selection, and the Bednarik Award as the nation's top defensive player.

Posluszny is a throwback-type linebacker with very good physical tools and even better intangibles. He started slowly as a senior but he returned to form once he adjusted to his new position (from WLB in a 4-3 to ILB in a 3-4) and became more comfortable with a smaller knee brace. He possesses adequate size and speed, but his rare instincts and ferocious mentality are what make him a special player. Posluszny seems to fit best on the outside but he displays enough promise to play inside or both in the NFL, depending on the scheme. Regardless, he projects as one of the top-three linebackers in the 2007 class and should come off the board in the middle of the first round.

[gr8slayer]

John Beason
OLB | (6'0", 237, 4.72) | MIAMI (FLA.)

Strengths: Possesses good strength for his size. Also displays good straight-line speed and short-area quickness. He is an instinctive and aggressive player versus the run. Diagnoses plays quickly, takes good angles in pursuit and shows very good closing burst. Plays with an outstanding motor and sacrifices his body to make plays. He has impressive short-area power for his size and is able to jack running backs off their feet with his initial contact. Very reliable as an open-field tackler. He uses his hands well and does a good job of sifting through traffic. Shows good instincts and closing burst when turned loose as a pass rusher. He displays adequate awareness and range in zone coverage. Also does a great job of covering kicks on special teams.

Weaknesses: Lacks elite height and doesn't have much room left on his frame to get bigger. He displays some stiffness in his hips. He is fast on a straight-line and laterally, but he's not as proficient turning and running. Lacks elite range in coverage and will have trouble matching up one-on-one versus the NFL's quicker running backs out of the backfield. He has a history of durability issues, including shoulder and knee injuries throughout his career.

Overall: Beason arrived at Miami in 2003, appeared in two games (Louisiana Tech, Florida) as a fullback before suffering a season-ending shoulder injury, and then received a medical redshirt. As a redshirt freshman in 2004, he moved to linebacker and saw action in all 12 games (three starts) recording 29 total tackles, four tackles for loss, and one sack. Beason then started 10 contests and played in all 12 (team opened in nickel for two non-starts) at weakside outside linebacker for the 2005 season, registering 66 total tackles including six for loss. In 2006, he played in 12 of 13 games, missed one game with a knee injury, and finished the season with 75 total tackles, eight tackles for loss, 1.5 sacks, one interception, one forced fumble, and one fumble recovery.

Beason lacks elite size and he has a little bit of stiffness in his hips. He also comes with some durability baggage. However, he is a powerful, aggressive and fast linebacker with better instincts and toughness than most prospects in the 2007 draft class. Beason projects as a starting "WILL" linebacker in the NFL and he should come off the board between the late-first and early-second round range.

[Ickybaluky]

People compared him to AJ Hawk in terms of playing ability regardless of position. Would that be a fair comparison? :idunno:

Hawk is a little bigger and probably a little more powerful. He is a real good player, though.

I've seen Pos compared to Tedy Bruschi, but Tedy was more of a pass rusher early in his career. I think he is a real smart, instinctive player who makes plays. I think he is the kind of player that wins, because he seems to do a lot of things to help his team. He anticipates plays really well.

[gr8slayer]

Hawk is a little bigger and probably a little more powerful. He is a real good player, though.

I've seen Pos compared to Tedy Bruschi, but Tedy was more of a pass rusher early in his career. I think he is a real smart, instinctive player who makes plays. I think he is the kind of player that wins, because he seems to do a lot of things to help his team. He anticipates plays really well.
You mean you've seen Pos compared to Jesus Christ? No way.

[justasportsfan]

Hey I have met people (a couple on the "other" Bills board) that hate Kelsay and Schobel because they are White. They feel that if we had two Black DE's we would have more sacks :idunno:

Add Kelsays and Denney's sacks and compare those sacks to the rest of the league. I'ts not bad at all especially if you consider it's their first year in a new scheme.

Fix the run D especially up the middle and force teams to throw even more, I'm almost sure those sack nos. would go higher.

[gr8slayer]

Add Kelsays and Denney's sacks and compare those sacks to the rest of the league. I'ts not bad at all especially if you consider it's their first year in a new scheme.

Fix the run D especially up the middle and force teams to throw even more, I'm almost sure those sack nos. would go higher.
I have no problem with them but apparently white guys can't play football according to the "other board"

[gr8slayer]

Sirius Radio just said that Willis is more important to the Bills as a draft pick than Peterson would be.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I saw Willis's highlights and he looked pretty damn good to me. He looks like he sniffs plays out pretty good and goes sideline to sideline. He was pretty highly regarded before his forty time came out so I am sure there is more to him than just that.
Sure the worst linebacker in College can look good to you if you only watch his highlight plays.

[evol4276]

he was second on my not-so-big-list when we started talking about the offseason/draft.. wtched lotsa clips and really liked him but never actually saw him play. i dont watch a lot of college football. then a month or so later he ran that time and was like holy lord, but he's still #2 for me (i just still cant write lynchy off like everyone else) followed by ap.

[gonzo1105]

I hate when people always bring up that Pos is a character "Marv guy". Patrick Willis is just as much character as Pos as he is always out in the community helping out people in the Mississippi area. The man had very little help on that defense and was a monster. He was really the only player other teams had to game plan against. He might have some injuries but its not as if he whimps out and misses games. The guy plays through his injuries like a warrior no matter how bad it hurts him. Thats not a throwback player? This guy is the type of player Marv wants. A guy with high character who keeps his mouth shut to the media and plays like an animal even with injuries. He is more of a chase and run tackler who uses his speed to chase down ball carriers. If your looking for a guy who is going to shove a guard 3 yds in the backfied with pure power then he isn't your guy, but then so isn't Beason. Patrick Willis is a hell of a player, who had very little help. He is worth of the pick for the Bills and I really hope we end up with him.

[Earthquake Enyart]

I don't like it when they have stiff hips. :down:

[Saratoga Slim]

I don't like it when they have stiff hips. :down:

stiff hips sink ships.

[HHURRICANE]

Weaknesses: Size is adequate but not elite, especially for teams that project him as a SLB in the NFL. May need to add some bulk to frame in order to hold up in the NFL. Effective in coverage, but lacks ideal ball skills and does not make many big plays in that facet of the game. Durability is an issue after knee injury in 2005-'06 Orange Bowl.


Just we need. A guy that lacks ideal ball skills and doesn't make big plays.

I'll take Willis instead of Poz all day.

[mchurchfie]

Sure the worst linebacker in College can look good to you if you only watch his highlight plays.
I get impressed easily.:coocoo:

[mikemac2001]

If he was Black there would be no questions asked.


white lb's arent as cool duh

[gr8slayer]

white lb's arent as cool duh
Yeah, that Urlacher guy blows.

[mysticsoto]

I don't get terrified by picks made by other teams, especially given you never really know how good the guy will be until he plays. I don't worry about things out of my control.

I think Willis, POS or Beason would all be good players for you guys.

How come nobody ever mentions Timmons? I like him alot too and think he should be considered among the above 3 you mention...

[patmoran2006]

How come nobody ever mentions Timmons? I like him alot too and think he should be considered among the above 3 you mention...
1- He only started for one year and is considered much more of a raw- long term project than Beason or Pos and especially Willis; who can start from day one. (not to say Timmons cant develop into a great NFL LB) Any team taking him should be prepared for him to not start before year two, kinda like Youboty with us.

2- His agent is Drew Rosenhaus.. and I highly doubt if all things are equal Levy will want to deal with him again.

[gr8slayer]

1- He only started for one year and is considered much more of a raw- long term project than Beason or Pos and especially Willis; who can start from day one. (not to say Timmons cant develop into a great NFL LB) Any team taking him should be prepared for him to not start before year two, kinda like Youboty with us.

2- His agent is Drew Rosenhaus.. and I highly doubt if all things are equal Levy will want to deal with him again.
Bingo.

[patmoran2006]

BTW.. Is this unofficially becoming the "He's not that good anyway" thread so that when he's gone before us we will feel better?

Willis was Ray Lewis a few weeks ago.. Then reports surfaced that SF is enamored with him, meaning he not make it to us.. Now there are question marks.

By April 29th he'll be a "workout warrior wonder"

[Ickybaluky]

How come nobody ever mentions Timmons? I like him alot too and think he should be considered among the above 3 you mention...

He may end up being as good but he doesn't have their track record. He is a riskier pick.

[THATHURMANATOR]

BTW.. Is this unofficially becoming the "He's not that good anyway" thread so that when he's gone before us we will feel better?

Willis was Ray Lewis a few weeks ago.. Then reports surfaced that SF is enamored with him, meaning he not make it to us.. Now there are question marks.

By April 29th he'll be a "workout warrior wonder"
Was Willis Ray Lewis before his 40 time though? That is what I am really asking here.

[jamesiscool]

Was Willis Ray Lewis before his 40 time though? That is what I am really asking here.

no. not at all. peoplew ere knocking on him then the 40 time came out and he's supposed to be the next savior of the bills defense.

[SABURZFAN]

I am seriously asking this question. I haven't really seen him play.


i was moe impressed with the fact that he played with a broken hand in his junior year.the 40 was gravy.

[patmoran2006]

Forget the combine 40 times and all senior bowl.
ON top of ALL that, he won the Butkus award.


What the **** more does the guy have to do?

[Ickybaluky]

Forget the combine 40 times and all senior bowl.
ON top of ALL that, he won the Butkus award.


What the **** more does the guy have to do?

Funny, Posluszny won it the year before and you keep calling him average.

If you look at past Butkus Award winners, it doesn't necessarily mean greatness:

2006 - Patrick Willis, Mississippi
2005 - Paul Posluszny, Penn State
2004 - Derrick Johnson, Texas
2003 - Teddy Lehman, Oklahoma
2002 - E.J. Henderson, Maryland
2001 - Rocky Calmus, Oklahoma
2000 - Dan Morgan, Miami
1999 - LaVar Arrington, Penn State
1998 - Chris Claiborne, USC
1997 - Andy Katzenmoyer, Ohio State
1996 - Matt Russell, Colorado
1995 - Kevin Hardy, Illinois
1994 - Dana Howard, Illinois
1993 - Trev Alberts, Nebraska
1992 - Marvin Jones, Florida State
1991 - Erick Anderson, Michigan
1990 - Alfred Williams, Colorado
1989 - Percy Snow, Michigan State
1988 - Derrick Thomas, Alabama
1987 - Paul McGowan, Florida State
1986 - Brian Bosworth, Oklahoma
1985 - Brian Bosworth, Oklahoma

[patmoran2006]

Funny, Posluszny won it the year before and you keep calling him average.
Willis didnt hurt his knee like Pos did. Pos was better in 2005 than he was in 2006.

The question posed in the thread was if we fell in love with Willis because of his 40 time.. He also had 137 tackles and won the buktus award was my point; on top of the ridiculous post-season numbers he's shown scouts.

And on top of that, doesnt have the range or speed that Willis has; ESPEICALLY in a Buffalo cover 2.

It's not even close.