If you could trade...

[patmoran2006]

If you could trade right NOW Donte Whitner and John McCargo and in return get Haloti Ngata and Nick Mangold, would you make the trade?

Mangold already looks a pro bowler and so does ngata.. we passed on both of them.

I understand NO TEAM makes the BEST pick every time, but the best teams make the MOST best picks...... I'm tired of hearing about how wonderful our draft was last year, and this is coming from someone who spent a lot of time defending it. (flipflopflipflip- isnt that right Justa AKA Rah Rah)

Our day two picks were amazing; perhaps combined the best in the NFL.

But our weakness last year was EACH side of the line, and we left a monster in the middle on the board with both our first rounders.

Ko Simpson, Kyle Williams, Keith Ellison, Terrence Pennington.. Man, for day two of a draft that's unbelievable.

But overall we got very little from our day one picks.

Whitner was productive (which he better be at 8) but didn't have any games where you said "holy ****, this guy is going to be amazing"

McCargo did little before getting hurt, plays Tripplett's position and now he's gotta try to bulk up to play the NT. If we're in a goaline defense someone like Mangold is going to drive him into the 7th row.

Youboty.. no comment.

Now our day one picks may emerge, Whitner and McCargo and Youboty may become great players.. but until they do, quit talking like this was the greatest draft in history or something..

I actually think its quite sad that on a whole our day two picks were better than our day one guys.

Now "Groan" Away for expressing an opinion that's not homerrific.

[Devin]

I am a huge fan of both.

Id probably have kept Whitner and drafted Mangold. When the trade was announced I was convinced that was who we were taking.

[Mudflap1]

Ask me again this time next year. I'm not ready to declare anyone boom or bust after one rookie season.

Jon

[YardRat]

Tough call...nice scenario, but you're creating one more hole to fill at safety. We've already got a serviceable center and picked up a DT in FA, so at this very moment I'd have to say no. At the draft last year, immediately after the first round was over, I would've seriously considered it.

[patmoran2006]

I am a huge fan of both.

Id probably have kept Whitner and drafted Mangold. When the trade was announced I was convinced that was who we were taking.
Actually.. I have to say the exact same thing.

When the trade was announced.. I jumped from my barstool thinking we just scored Mangold.. When they said McCargo I yelled **** real, real loud.

and I dont think Whitner sucks at all. I just think this football team would be better if Ngata was a Bill instead of Whitner.

and I also didnt say our draft sucked.. It was a good draft.. My point was some people on here make it out like Marv is a draft God.. He made mistakes too.

[Jan Reimers]

Ask me again this time next year. I'm not ready to declare anyone boom or bust after one rookie season.

Jon
Absolutely. Could we see McCargo and Youboty play a season or two, and let the 21 year old Whitner mature a little, before we reach any conclusions?

[patmoran2006]

Tough call...nice scenario, but you're creating one more hole to fill at safety. We've already got a serviceable center and picked up a DT in FA, so at this very moment I'd have to say no. At the draft last year, immediately after the first round was over, I would've seriously considered it.
you make a good point..

But here's mine.. the BIGGEST reason this is sooooo not a playoff team, is because we have "serviceable" centers and DT's like Darwin Walker instead of monsters like Ngata and Mangold.

Unless Whitner becomes a franchise safety, he's far from irreplacable. Meanwhile, Ngata and Mangold both look like guys who will be spending lots of February's in Hawaii.

Again- as I'll say in every response.. I did NOT say this wasnt a good overall draft.. I'm just saying its not as good as some people on here think--1 year later.

[mayotm]

If you could trade right NOW Donte Whitner and John McCargo and in return get Haloti Ngata and Nick Mangold, would you make the trade?

Mangold already looks a pro bowler and so does ngata.. we passed on both of them.

I understand NO TEAM makes the BEST pick every time, but the best teams make the MOST best picks...... I'm tired of hearing about how wonderful our draft was last year, and this is coming from someone who spent a lot of time defending it. (flipflopflipflip- isnt that right Justa AKA Rah Rah)

Our day two picks were amazing; perhaps combined the best in the NFL.

But our weakness last year was EACH side of the line, and we left a monster in the middle on the board with both our first rounders.

Ko Simpson, Kyle Williams, Keith Ellison, Terrence Pennington.. Man, for day two of a draft that's unbelievable.

But overall we got very little from our day one picks.

Whitner was productive (which he better be at 8) but didn't have any games where you said "holy ****, this guy is going to be amazing"

McCargo did little before getting hurt, plays Tripplett's position and now he's gotta try to bulk up to play the NT. If we're in a goaline defense someone like Mangold is going to drive him into the 7th row.

Youboty.. no comment.

Now our day one picks may emerge, Whitner and McCargo and Youboty may become great players.. but until they do, quit talking like this was the greatest draft in history or something..

I actually think its quite sad that on a whole our day two picks were better than our day one guys.

Now "Groan" Away for expressing an opinion that's not homerrific.We are all well aware of your opinions. Everything the Bills do sucks. You know everything. You're opinions are the only one's that matter. You should be the Bills GM, etc.

[patmoran2006]

lol.. oh dear..

[patmoran2006]

What's the matter Justa.. Gotta wait for 10 or so homer comments before you add your expertise to the matter.. Or is a "flipflopflipflop" comment with one of your famous smilies going to do the trick?

[justasportsfan]

What's the matter Justa.. Gotta wait for 10 or so homer comments before you add your expertise to the matter.. Or is a "flipflopflipflop" comment with one of your famous smilies going to do the trick?
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n115/Ricjon69/patmoran1.jpg

[mikemac2001]

haha thats funny

[patmoran2006]

haha.. I'd expect nothing less from you and your pom poms. This is a message/chat board Einstein.. I"ll give you this.. Your the best at taking a football topic and masking into something personal


http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n115/Ricjon69/patmoran1.jpg

[justasportsfan]

and masking into something personal
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n115/Ricjon69/cry.gif

[mikemac2001]

dude is always finding stuff

[patmoran2006]

All your good for.. Your a comic on a football message board.

Congrats.

[mayotm]

The premise of this thread is ridiculous. You could do this kind of hindsight analysis on every team and find players that were passed over. Plus, center wasn't a need position after bringing in Fowler. Ngata doesn't fit the Bills system. That's not to say he couldn't have been successful, but we really don't know. Ngata was/is surrounded by some great players in Baltimore. Finally, we really don't know what we have in McCargo, so we'll have to see how it plays out.

[Illmatic15]

Donte Whiter owns all of the guys

[patmoran2006]

Donte Whiter owns all of the guys
Might be time to change that sig.

[Ickybaluky]

As long as we are on the subject of hypotheticals...

If you could take LaDanian Tomlinson's DNA and grow a bunch of Tomlinsons in a lab and field a whole team of Tomlinsons, would you?

That would be cool, but I'm not sure how it would effect the cap.

[mikemac2001]

All your good for.. Your a comic on a football message board.

Congrats.

Ya he seems to enjoy his time on the board...while you on the other hand seem stressed out about it

[Mudflap1]

First comment: same as what I said before -- it's too early to judge these players as being worth it or not. They're young, they're still learning. There are tons of guys (most guys) that blossom after their first year.

Second comment: it's not fair to pick out two guys in the first round (center and defensive tackle) and say "boy, wouldn't you have made the moves to get those guys in hindsight?" Aren't there up to 30 other teams who could have that same question asked? Wouldn't it then be fair to ask "shouldn't we have gone all out to trade for Vernon Davis, and then pick up Colston in the 7th?"

Jon

[alohabillsfan]

My TRUE Day-One Thoughts.. (shorter version)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the short version, call it my "cliff notes".. Working on a longer article that will be done Monday morning (not like the majority of you care)

and keep in mind that here ANYONE who knows my history here can NEVER EVER accuse me of being a "Homer"..

I am one of the few who upon digesting this draft, absolutely LOVES 80% of what the Buffalo Bills did, ESPECIALLY trading up to get McCargo.

* Donte Whitner thoughts: Forget the spot for now.. Lets talk about the player. Dick Jauron and Perry Fewel have now PROVEN to me at least, that they are COMMITTED to a cover two defense. Though overall Huff was a better safety and will probably have a more high profile career, WHitner is the best COVER safety in this draft. In the "tampa two", your safety has to be able to cover the entire half of the field, Whitner can do that better than anybody except maybe Huff (who was gone and we couldnt control that). He's also physical. The only thing I dont like about him is he is a bit small and might get run over now and then.

* I do think Marv made a mistake by not trading down. Reports said Detroit was taking Ernie Sims if Huff was gone. He certainly wasnt going after 9 (det) until probably Miami at 16 (who took Allen). I think he could have traded down and got another third, which would have been EXTREMELY valuable knowing they were going to trade up for McCargo and lose a third. This team needs player so in that regards I think not trading down was a mistake. Still, Whitner is PRIME for a cover two and is more valuable to us than teams not playing a cover two.

* I absolutely LOVE the McCargo pick and I think he was worth losing a third rounder for. We entered the draft with DT being the BIGGEST spot to find a new starter, and we did that. Again, it shows we are COMMITTED to a cover two and we wanted athletic DT's.. He fits that bill to a tee. Potentially from everything I have read, he can be one of the steals of this draft.

BTW- I would have taken McCargo before Ngata for this defense. I liked Wroten better but thats it, and he had too many character issues for Marv's liking I guess. I think in Wroten, the Rams got one of the top 10 players in this draft, but oh well.

* I'm shocked they went up in the first round to get him, but ya know what, in 2 years if this guy plays like they think he can, nobody will care.

* The Youboty pick was an AWESOME pick. I dont think he was picked for this year to play much, they like Greer and King.. But those guys are backups, this guy has the ability to be a starter. This is the 2007 insurance pick if Nate isnt back.. I dont argue it for a second.

BILLS SUMMARY:
I'm in the BIG TIME MINORITY here, but I have NO PROBLEM with them not taking an OL on day one of this draft. People should remember the WEAKNESS of this OL last year was the INTERIOR.. Teams blasted us right through the middle.. WEll Marv did his part this FA period by signing Fowler and Reyes (who I think was the most valuable FA of anyone we signed).. Preston is a year more experienced and will eventually take over for that bum Villarrial.

Sure it would have been nice to find more good linemen (I think we should have "overpaid" for a new left tackle in FA still). But with this draft, Marv totally addressed two important parts of a lousy DEFENSE on day one.

Though most lists have us as one of the Biggest losers on draft day, I give this draft a pretty solid "B" right now.

"My Problem with Marv": The only problem with Marv as a GM to this point is I dont think he has a Plan B when putting something together. They "could" have traded down with Whitner IMO< but didnt have a plan B "if" he would have been surprisingly gone.. Thats why I think he didnt trade down. He didnt have a plan "b" for McCargo either, which is why he traded up.. I think trading down would have given us more depth at DE, and we could have drafted a guard in round three, the only offensive pick I wish we had made.. I've noticed that about Marv, he didnt have a plan B after not signign Idonije either.. His comeback was Ryan Denney. Maybe thats lack of experience or old age.. He needs to start learning to hav a better Plan B.


OTHER QUICK THOUGHTS AROUND THE DRAFT:

wow did my mock draft suck.. In my defense, I seen FEW if any mocks that had a lot of these guys rising and falling like they did.

* I cant F'n belive the Patriots got Chad Jackson, IN THE SECOND ROUND! That's insane. He's one of the luckiest guys in this draft. He's going to be HUGE for NE.. God-dammit that sucks for the Bills.

* The Jets IMO had the best draft just for the first round alone.. Mangold and BRICK.. Thats 40% of your OL that has future PRo Bowls written all over it. This team isnt going to be sucking for much longer. To me, to have two monster STUDS on your OL from one draft is as good as it gets.

* LoL at Winston Justice.. That's what he gets for running his mouth saying he's better than Brick. Philly did get Bunkley AND Justice.. That's going to help them.

* Leinart hates life right now, but in 2 years he should be thrilled.. Perfect situation in Arz.. Not rushed into starting lineup, and has best WR tandem in league to work with and a RB in Edge.. Great fit for him, just not on draft day.

* Day one best draft (outside the Jets) IMO is Houston, which isnt far fetched seeing they had the first pick overall.. First four picks saw them go DE (Williams) LB (Ryan), G (Spencer) and tackle (Winston).. They worked on BOTH sides of the line and though Bush could be the Michael Jordan of the NFL someday, this team just got SO MUCH better in the trenches.

Lastly..
I think you all seen the official "heel" turn of Ice on this board, and the past 24 hours have proven what I been saying for MONTHS NOW; this guy doesnt even know his OWN opinion.

For months, I been battling with him, even got myself suspended for being STUPID enough to get goaded into personal attacks on him, because he FRUSTRATES me so much with his "thoughts" and how they change every week..

"marv and modrak and co." this and that.. Marv was a genius and so was Modrak. According to him now, Marv needs his "depends" and this whole team is a joke and the "stands are going to be empty" and "bags on the head" and this and that.. ALL IN ONE DAY.. All you have to do is go thread hunting to see exactly what im saying.


you sit there and preach and "pat yourself on the back" about how much you know about football, how you coach and how you know so much more than the majority of us, and then you sit there and BASH the living hell out of not one but TWO players who are 100% perfect fits for our new defense.. Why? Whitner and McCargo might not be ideal for most teams, but for a cover two Ferrel probably has a hard-on right now.

What happened to your "Two year process" theory that you used as your only base for defense until now? Is that theory out the window too now?

you confuse me.

anyways, these are my thoughts.. so much for the cliff note version huh



Gee, guess whop said this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[socalfan]

All your good for.. Your a comic on a football message board.

Congrats.

Apparently he is getting to you. You've lost this round. Whoever heard of a writer not knowing the difference between you're and your. What a fraud.

[justasportsfan]

Apparently he is getting to you. You've lost this round. Whoever heard of a writer not knowing the difference between you're and your. What a fraud.


sometimes I do learn from Pat, then I don't, then I do,then I don't,then I do ,then I don't .......

[socalfan]

sometimes I do learn from Pat, then I don't, then I do,then I don't,then I do ,then I don't .......


Being flexible is a good thing to learn....

[gr8slayer]

I'm no where near ready to give up on McCargo. Injuries are one thing that are out of a guys control. He, like every rookie (first rounder or undrafted FA) gets three years to show me what they are made of. He still has two full years to show me somethign.

[gr8slayer]

Pat I'm a fan of your stuff on FoxSports and all, I enjoy reading your posts most of the time, most of the time they are insightful and well thought out, I also understand that you are a passionate fan of the Bills but you do change your mind too much for my taste.

[socalfan]

I'm no where near ready to give up on McCargo. Injuries are one thing that are out of a guys control. He, like every rookie (first rounder or undrafted FA) gets three years to show me what they are made of. He still has two full years to show me somethign.

He has already shown more than Ngata....what are you talking about? If you compare Ngata's first 5 games versus McCargo's only five, McCargo was better by a long shot even though McCargo got way fewer snaps than Ngata. Even Tim Anderson had better numbers that Ngata( 13 tackles in 16 games) and Tim(20 tackles in 15 games) played in fewer games as well as fewer downs.

So McCargo was a better choice than Ngata. So now compare Whitner and Mangold. Last year, this year and every year going forward, I would prefer having Whitner to Mangold.

The oiginal question had nothing more than the typical hyperbole that fills his offerings.

[gr8slayer]

He has already shown more than Ngata....what are you talking about? If you compare Ngata's first 5 games versus McCargo's only five, McCargo was better by a long shot even though McCargo got way fewer snaps than Ngata. Even Tim Anderson had better numbers that Ngata( 13 tackles in 16 games) and Tim(20 tackles in 15 games) played in fewer games as well as fewer downs.

So McCargo was a better choice than Ngata. So now compare Whitner and Mangold. Last year, this year and every year going forward, I would prefer having Whitner to Mangold.

The oiginal question had nothing more than the typical hyperbole that fills his offerings.
I don't know why people are still on Mangold, I'm perfectly fine with Fowler.

Here's something I just found out, check out Mario Williams/Manny Lawson's numbers when McCargo was hurt, and check them while he was playing. Their numbers went down when he wasn't there. Coincidence?

I'm still not as sold on Whitner as some are but he sure showed some flashes last year. I hope to see more of a ball hawk this year.

[socalfan]

......
I'm still not as sold on Whitner as some are but he sure showed some flashes last year. I hope to see more of a ball hawk this year.

You're not sold on a guy that had 104 tackles and assists, 4 passes defended in the end zone, one of which should have been ruled an interception? And he is a rookie? I don't have any problem being sold on him.

[gr8slayer]

You're not sold on a guy that had 104 tackles and assists, 4 passes defended in the end zone, one of which should have been ruled an interception? And he is a rookie? I don't have any problem being sold on him.
Didn't say he didn't do well, I just don't think he is the second coming (yet) like some people do. Put it this way, I liked him enough to go out and get an authentic jersey.

I just want to see more INT's, big hits, etc................. I know he was just a rookie.

[Mitchy moo]

Being flexible is a good thing to learn....

insanity is not.

[socalfan]

insanity is not.

True, very true....but having read many of Justa's posts, I'm pretty confident that we will see many good things from him....including those summer camp photos of the Bills!

[socalfan]

Didn't say he didn't do well, I just don't think he is the second coming (yet) like some people do. Put it this way, I liked him enough to go out and get an authentic jersey.

I just want to see more INT's, big hits, etc................. I know he was just a rookie.


Second coming?? Who did you have in mind?

[Devin]

He has already shown more than Ngata....what are you talking about? If you compare Ngata's first 5 games versus McCargo's only five, McCargo was better by a long shot even though McCargo got way fewer snaps than Ngata. Even Tim Anderson had better numbers that Ngata( 13 tackles in 16 games) and Tim(20 tackles in 15 games) played in fewer games as well as fewer downs.

So McCargo was a better choice than Ngata. So now compare Whitner and Mangold. Last year, this year and every year going forward, I would prefer having Whitner to Mangold.

The oiginal question had nothing more than the typical hyperbole that fills his offerings.

He has? I like McCargo and think he will be a fine DT at some point but Ngata had an outstanding year. Ngata isnt going to have a lot of stats hes a space eater, and he is more then effective at doing it. A big reason a lot of Baltimores guys had such fantastic years was because it takes 3 friggin guys to contain Ngata.

As far as the first year goes there is no question Ngata was better. Hopefully McCargo rebounds year 2.



I don't know why people are still on Mangold, I'm perfectly fine with Fowler.

Here's something I just found out, check out Mario Williams/Manny Lawson's numbers when McCargo was hurt, and check them while he was playing. Their numbers went down when he wasn't there. Coincidence?

I'm still not as sold on Whitner as some are but he sure showed some flashes last year. I hope to see more of a ball hawk this year.


Mangold will be a pro-bowl center one day, very likely sooner rather then later. Fowler will never be a pro-bowl center.

[Marvelous]

I don't value safety much. ESP not on the same level i do NT/DT. And Center is nowhere near as valuable as NT either.. I like Whitner. He played great his rookie season for us....McCargo will improve this year..Heck, just by him playing a whole season he's gonna imrove..

Shoulda woulda coulda's are pointless and dangerous for morale..tighen up Pat...

[gr8slayer]

He has? I like McCargo and think he will be a fine DT at some point but Ngata had an outstanding year. Ngata isnt going to have a lot of stats hes a space eater, and he is more then effective at doing it. A big reason a lot of Baltimores guys had such fantastic years was because it takes 3 friggin guys to contain Ngata.

As far as the first year goes there is no question Ngata was better. Hopefully McCargo rebounds year 2.





Mangold will be a pro-bowl center one day, very likely sooner rather then later. Fowler will never be a pro-bowl center.
The people who vote on the Pro Bowl have very little credibility in my book, see Roy Williams.

BTW, since when was being voted to the Pro Bowl the only way to be a good player? Since Evans has never made it should we just cut him? Fletcher never made it. Schobel just now made it. Pro Bowls are just a way to sell more jerseys.

[don137]

If we drafted Mangold and Ngata then the title of this thread would be why didn't the Bills draft a faster DT that fit the system better and a quality safety. Under the Bills system who says for certain Ngata would succeed like he is doing now. No pleasing some people.

[alohabillsfan]

This is the short version, call it my "cliff notes".. Working on a longer article that will be done Monday morning (not like the majority of you care)

and keep in mind that here ANYONE who knows my history here can NEVER EVER accuse me of being a "Homer"..

I am one of the few who upon digesting this draft, absolutely LOVES 80% of what the Buffalo Bills did, ESPECIALLY trading up to get McCargo.

* Donte Whitner thoughts: Forget the spot for now.. Lets talk about the player. Dick Jauron and Perry Fewel have now PROVEN to me at least, that they are COMMITTED to a cover two defense. Though overall Huff was a better safety and will probably have a more high profile career, WHitner is the best COVER safety in this draft. In the "tampa two", your safety has to be able to cover the entire half of the field, Whitner can do that better than anybody except maybe Huff (who was gone and we couldnt control that). He's also physical. The only thing I dont like about him is he is a bit small and might get run over now and then.

* I do think Marv made a mistake by not trading down. Reports said Detroit was taking Ernie Sims if Huff was gone. He certainly wasnt going after 9 (det) until probably Miami at 16 (who took Allen). I think he could have traded down and got another third, which would have been EXTREMELY valuable knowing they were going to trade up for McCargo and lose a third. This team needs player so in that regards I think not trading down was a mistake. Still, Whitner is PRIME for a cover two and is more valuable to us than teams not playing a cover two.

* I absolutely LOVE the McCargo pick and I think he was worth losing a third rounder for. We entered the draft with DT being the BIGGEST spot to find a new starter, and we did that. Again, it shows we are COMMITTED to a cover two and we wanted athletic DT's.. He fits that bill to a tee. Potentially from everything I have read, he can be one of the steals of this draft.

BTW- I would have taken McCargo before Ngata for this defense. I liked Wroten better but thats it, and he had too many character issues for Marv's liking I guess. I think in Wroten, the Rams got one of the top 10 players in this draft, but oh well.

* I'm shocked they went up in the first round to get him, but ya know what, in 2 years if this guy plays like they think he can, nobody will care.

* The Youboty pick was an AWESOME pick. I dont think he was picked for this year to play much, they like Greer and King.. But those guys are backups, this guy has the ability to be a starter. This is the 2007 insurance pick if Nate isnt back.. I dont argue it for a second.

BILLS SUMMARY:
I'm in the BIG TIME MINORITY here, but I have NO PROBLEM with them not taking an OL on day one of this draft. People should remember the WEAKNESS of this OL last year was the INTERIOR.. Teams blasted us right through the middle.. WEll Marv did his part this FA period by signing Fowler and Reyes (who I think was the most valuable FA of anyone we signed).. Preston is a year more experienced and will eventually take over for that bum Villarrial.

Sure it would have been nice to find more good linemen (I think we should have "overpaid" for a new left tackle in FA still). But with this draft, Marv totally addressed two important parts of a lousy DEFENSE on day one.

Though most lists have us as one of the Biggest losers on draft day, I give this draft a pretty solid "B" right now.

"My Problem with Marv": The only problem with Marv as a GM to this point is I dont think he has a Plan B when putting something together. They "could" have traded down with Whitner IMO< but didnt have a plan B "if" he would have been surprisingly gone.. Thats why I think he didnt trade down. He didnt have a plan "b" for McCargo either, which is why he traded up.. I think trading down would have given us more depth at DE, and we could have drafted a guard in round three, the only offensive pick I wish we had made.. I've noticed that about Marv, he didnt have a plan B after not signign Idonije either.. His comeback was Ryan Denney. Maybe thats lack of experience or old age.. He needs to start learning to hav a better Plan B.


OTHER QUICK THOUGHTS AROUND THE DRAFT:

wow did my mock draft suck.. In my defense, I seen FEW if any mocks that had a lot of these guys rising and falling like they did.

* I cant F'n belive the Patriots got Chad Jackson, IN THE SECOND ROUND! That's insane. He's one of the luckiest guys in this draft. He's going to be HUGE for NE.. God-dammit that sucks for the Bills.

* The Jets IMO had the best draft just for the first round alone.. Mangold and BRICK.. Thats 40% of your OL that has future PRo Bowls written all over it. This team isnt going to be sucking for much longer. To me, to have two monster STUDS on your OL from one draft is as good as it gets.

* LoL at Winston Justice.. That's what he gets for running his mouth saying he's better than Brick. Philly did get Bunkley AND Justice.. That's going to help them.

* Leinart hates life right now, but in 2 years he should be thrilled.. Perfect situation in Arz.. Not rushed into starting lineup, and has best WR tandem in league to work with and a RB in Edge.. Great fit for him, just not on draft day.

* Day one best draft (outside the Jets) IMO is Houston, which isnt far fetched seeing they had the first pick overall.. First four picks saw them go DE (Williams) LB (Ryan), G (Spencer) and tackle (Winston).. They worked on BOTH sides of the line and though Bush could be the Michael Jordan of the NFL someday, this team just got SO MUCH better in the trenches.

Lastly..
I think you all seen the official "heel" turn of Ice on this board, and the past 24 hours have proven what I been saying for MONTHS NOW; this guy doesnt even know his OWN opinion.

For months, I been battling with him, even got myself suspended for being STUPID enough to get goaded into personal attacks on him, because he FRUSTRATES me so much with his "thoughts" and how they change every week..

"marv and modrak and co." this and that.. Marv was a genius and so was Modrak. According to him now, Marv needs his "depends" and this whole team is a joke and the "stands are going to be empty" and "bags on the head" and this and that.. ALL IN ONE DAY.. All you have to do is go thread hunting to see exactly what im saying.


you sit there and preach and "pat yourself on the back" about how much you know about football, how you coach and how you know so much more than the majority of us, and then you sit there and BASH the living hell out of not one but TWO players who are 100% perfect fits for our new defense.. Why? Whitner and McCargo might not be ideal for most teams, but for a cover two Ferrel probably has a hard-on right now.

What happened to your "Two year process" theory that you used as your only base for defense until now? Is that theory out the window too now?

you confuse me.

anyways, these are my thoughts.. so much for the cliff note version huh

Gee, guess who said this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]


Since nobody has guessed, it was PAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tatonka]

Ask me again this time next year. I'm not ready to declare anyone boom or bust after one rookie season.

Jon

good answer..

[Mr. Pink]

I have no problem with the selection of Whitner at 8. The only concern of him was size and getting run over by NFL rb's. But in the "tampa 2" the Safeties don't come up and help in run defense anyways, so that's moot.

Whitner was very productive at Ohio St and he had a nice rookie season here, obviously there is room for improvement, as there is with every rookie. He's definitely on the right path though.

My only problem with our drafting was moving up for McCargo. As a couple others said, once I heard the trade was announced I thought for sure it was draft Mangold. I've never been a fan of Fowler and think he's best for being depth at the C and G positions. Mangold is a beast and would have anchored this line for years. Instead we moved up to draft a DT who no one had going in Rd1. A guy who's had injury concerns his entire collegian career-go figure he got hurt last year, with his history who woulda seen that coming?

I woulda prefered just sitting in tight in round 2, keeping our extra 3rd and drafting who was available at that time instead of getting McCargo. The only draft mistake made by the regime was McCargo. Not too bad when you consider how poorly some other teams do in the draft. Or how poorly we've done in the draft in previous years.

[Tatonka]

Pat I'm a fan of your stuff on FoxSports and all, I enjoy reading your posts most of the time, most of the time they are insightful and well thought out, I also understand that you are a passionate fan of the Bills but you do change your mind too much for my taste.

the dude changes his mind on things more than i change my kids diaper. you can pretty much find a post for why the bills need to draft "player A" in the first round or we are going to be 3-13 for about 10 different players.. and if the bills draft one of the he will pull that post to look brilliant.

[ublinkwescore]

you make a good point..

But here's mine.. the BIGGEST reason this is sooooo not a playoff team, is because we have "serviceable" centers and DT's like Darwin Walker instead of monsters like Ngata and Mangold.

Unless Whitner becomes a franchise safety, he's far from irreplacable. Meanwhile, Ngata and Mangold both look like guys who will be spending lots of February's in Hawaii.

Again- as I'll say in every response.. I did NOT say this wasnt a good overall draft.. I'm just saying its not as good as some people on here think--1 year later.

So never mind the fact that on D, whitner is playing a more mentally challenging position than Ngata, and let's just give up on McCargo who was supposedly showing signs of life against the Bears before getting injured, even though if he does boom instead of bust, he makes this D much better, and possibly capable of winning some games on the rare occasions that Our O isn't clicking this year.

[ublinkwescore]

I'd also have to say that right now, we've got what we've got, and let's not give up on anyone just yet, and let's not mess with what chemistry that they've already developed.

Oh yeah, and since Mario Williams hasn't done crap at this level, there is some circumstantial evidence that maybe it was McCargo that made him the monster that he was in college. Let's wait for that to have a chance to translate to his NFL game shall we?